I thought that Middlesborough passed the ball better and had better individual quality but Charlton's formation was good, and the balance of the team was OK. Solly and WIlson, looked well together and I think has the makings of a really good partnership. Great strike for Hulse for the first goal and if only his heading was as good, he could have had a hatrick. Kerlar at left back worked OK. Despite Boro looking better as a team, Charlton could have been 2-1 up.
Wilson going off, was a real shame and Chris Powell made a tactical error in pushing Bradley Pritchard to the right wing, and bringing on Dale Stephens. This combination does not work. There was no pace on either wings and the midfield was over run.
The second goal was a terrible error, better quality up front from Middlesborough meant they took their chances.
Putting Cook on the right, bringing Pritchard inside and taking Cort off was a disaster, and the team looked all over the place. Kerkar looked utterly confused at left back / midfield. It was a shambles.
The injuries of KMG, Wiggins, Fuller, Evina, and now Wilson could not have come at the worst time.
I hope that when they make it back that, that the team will be much stronger. Charlton will struggle until then and the pulled investment / lack of investment has exposed the bare bones of the squad. CP made mistakes at half time tactically but it with the loss of WIlson it was going to be difficult. Until some of injured players come back, I will be happy with 451 / 4141.
Jimensz, Slater, Protheroe, mysterons (if they are still around) would be better advised to look for some investment, in which the quality of the team can be improved, rather than be tempted to scheme to lay the blame at CPs door for the bare bones, with which he has to work with.
Decent post, vff.
Better finishing and indeed, it could have been a different result...especially if Wilson had stayed on the pitch. I said to Mr F after 10 minutes of the game that I felt their defence looked shaky and we might come away with something if we kept at them. But the injury meant reorganisation at half time and therein probably lies the problem.
We are definitely down to the barest of bones now and my heart aches for the decisions SCP is forced into making - maybe not the ones those on here would have taken but then they don't have that responsibility. IMHO, SCP hasn't made many poor ones thus far this season and for that we should all be prepared to cut him some slack. To say we face relegation for sure if he stays in charge is both disloyal and defeatist IMHO although I believe the poster has not been attending so many away games this term...and I shall be the first to admit that our home form leaves much to be desired.
I look to 3 ingredients , minmal to turning things around :The 4-5-1 formation to be played at home until things look up - grind out results whether it's pretty or not ; crucial injured players to return to the squad at the earliest opportunity ( as long as fit for purpose) so that players can return to their rightful positions and finally, for TJ to give SCP more time with those returning players to show he is the man for the job whilst continuing to seek further investment as vff and others rightly state.
4-1 flattered a Boro side who have more resources at their disposal than a team recently promoted from Div One, even without our alarming number of crocked players. Cardiff too may well come into the same bracket and we need to gird our loins (!) in readiness for Tuesday night. Then it's a 6 pointer at Bristol City which is winnable in light of our recent away form , another at Burnley followed by home games v Huddersfield and a final further 6 pointer at home to Peterborough before December starts with hopefully a bang, not a whimper....These matches may well define our season and if some are to be believed, the future of our manager. Gain a fair number of points by the time we travel to the Toolbox , hence stay above the relegation zone, and we should have at least a couple of returning players from the Treatment Room to bolster the squad. Win ugly, grind out a draw, bore the fans to death.....I shan't care as long as SCP is at the hem of the ship steering an upward course towards Xmas.
Sending my Xmas wish list up the chimney to Santa ( aka TJ) as we speak.
Despite the magnitude of the defeat today I actually feel more optimistic than I did after the Barnsley match as I felt that the Boro goals were essentially down to our errors or chasing the game rather than their superior ability.
We started off well and competed well and I think were well worth our lead from a well taken Rob Hulse goal.
Our defence made a rare error in allowing Woodgate the freedom of The Valley to head in their equaliser but we took the game back to them until the turning point of the match, in my opinion, Lawrie Wilson's injury.
Stephens came on for Wilson and slouched about most of the time and his laziness led to their second goal in my view when he made little or no effort to compete for a loose ball which enable Boro to expose us down the right for another well taken goal. The other consequence of accommodating Stephens was the loss of Pritchard's energy and bite in central areas where he was pretty effective in the first half.
Powell then (rightly in my view) tried to give us more attacking impetus by going to 3 at the back but, especially with a lazy powderpuff like Stephens mincing around midfield, that left us open to being caught on the break which essentially was the story of the third and fourth goals.
The injuries are really hurting us now. Kerkar worked hard and did his best but he is in no way a left back. I hope to God Wilson's injury is not too serious but won't be holding my breath.
Powell is the man and 21st after 46 league games will be an excellent season!
so much I want to say, but just about to have my dinner (curry & beer) so I'm going to keep it short............
Although I hate to see managers losing their jobs just because they drop into the bottom 3, unless CP turns this mess around FAST then i'm afraid he has to go. I know he hasn't been helped bt injuries BUT you don't play your attacking left winger (Kerkar) at left back and the refuse to put on your only other creative player (Green) - Cp must really dislike Green as he tried playing everyone else , starting with Wilson, then Pritchard and the Cook, wide right when he has the perfect player sitting on the bench.
The other 2 pet moans of mine( the midfield & lack of goals) both showed today why we are going down.............how on earth can you start a game with Devite& Pritchard in centre midfield & hope to win anything is beyond me. Pritchard started well and even created our goal, but then missed a sitter and spent the 2nd half chasing their players - he is still living off the Fulham game almost a year after it finished and he is getting worse. As for scoring goals - just show the players a dvd of todays game as 'Boro showed how to do it.
haven't checked yet but I think we are now the lowest goal scorers in the league - even Millwall can score more than 2 in a game.</blockquote
Totally agree what the hell has green done to lose his place in the team , Wilson was bought as a right back he is not a winger , we have now got 2 right backs playing who wanna be right wingers and they both don't have the quality to play there. How many crosses were over hit today . 1 decent cross in the box would result in a goal . The strikers must be fed up with making waisted runs in the box.
Middlesbrough had a lot more quality than us, but also by a long way the least physical side we have played so far.
We desperately miss fuller and no bullshit, brutal, centre half frightening running up top. Big man to get his head to the ball for smaller forward to aim for is not a tactic.
The injury list really don't help, what helps is having a board show and keep faith in a manager. We could have kicked on this year and kept momentum. The board gave the manager sod all to work with and now we are seeing the fruits of that investment
Can the people who think that Stephens is our best footballer please explain what he does consistently well?
I'm not one of those who has said this but in my opinion he is technically a different class to most of our players. You can tell just by watching him on the ball, his control and brain when in tight situations and the timing of some of his challenges. HOWEVER, we are a better side without him there for someone reason and his technicality doesn't seem to translate into an end product. It just dosent seem to work when he plays. The impact he has on the game is almost non existent,he doesn't drive forward or create much with his passing. He'll be a very good player at a higher level I think but doesn't make much happen for us.
if we were going to be a threat in this division we would have had to be solid in defence, we have been for a season and 13 games, but today was not good enough. Poor individual mistakes and our centre halves were not up to it today, something i didnt think i would say about Morro and Cort. Worrying.
I realise it doesn't help our current situation but just read that the Massives win at home v Peterborough today was their first there since August...and was partly due to another Llera goal.
This promotion lark isn't what it's cracked up to be.
An afternoon that began with promise and hope, but ended in shambolic despair.
Chris Powell's team selection was a surprise. He set up 4-4-2 with Wright-Philiips paired with Hulse upfront, but behind them Powell selected a motley crew. With Kerkar at left back, the ponderous Jackson was chosen at left midfield and with Pritchard alongside Dervite in central midfield the omens were not good. Dervite looks a decent player, but to say that the midfield appeared to lack guile is a huge understatement.
Nevertheless, despite my pessimism, Charlton began brightly with Pritchard in particular a busy nuisance. Indeed, Pritchard it was who set up Hulse who finished superbly for 1-0. The lead didn't last long. Woodgate found himself completely unmarked as he headed home from a free kick. Very disappointing.
The game's turning point was perhaps the injury to Wilson just before half-time. He was replaced by Stephens with Pritchard moving to the right. Pritchard disappeared from the game whilst Stephens played too deep to hurt Boro. What hope there had been began to fade.
However, we were still in the game when Michael Morrison gave the ball away enabling Boro to break and score. A bad and fatal error. Chris Powell then completely lost the plot and the result was game over.
Powell's first bizarre decision was to go 3 at the back with Morrison, Cort and Dervite strung out behind a middle 5 with Solly and Kerkar pushed forward. Within minutes Ledesma found himself in a huge gap between Morrison and Cort and calmly lobbed Hamer for 3-1. Given Cort's lack of pace it was an extraordinary thing to do and the result inevitable.
Two substitutions followed shortly, but led to tactical chaos. Haynes and Cook came on for Cort and Wright-Phillips, but what was the system? Dervite now moved alongside Morrison, but was it 4-4-2 again, 2-6-2 or 2-1-5-2 with Stephens in an even more ineffective Quaterback role? I really had no idea. Most importantly, nor did the players and it was a complete shambles. We were lucky Boro added only one more goal. It could so easily have been 5 or 6.
All very worrying.
Great Summary - Spot On
.... have to add that although a Stephens fan, he didn't have a good game (that pass!) but to say he was the cause is pathetic. Also his sideways passes were annoying but when the rest of the team are lined up on the edge of the box like a school team with no movement and no-one linking to help him, what do you expect. Joke tactics.
I was surprised we went 4-4-2 from the start but it appeared to work in the first half. I thought at HT we sounded quite comfortable and in control.
The substitution at the half was mystifying. We had a natural right midfielder on the bench in Green and that would have been a like for like switch, enabling us to keep our shape and formation. Instead, by bringing on Stephens in the middle and pushing Pritchard outside we were again playing someone (Pritchard) out of position. Why does Chris do that? Coupled with this, I was hearing that Stephens was playing much too deep so it was inviting Boro on to us. In the first half it sounded like the midfield were playing further up the field which limited Boro to long distance stuff (apart from the Woodgate goal of course).
Finally, by bringing off Cort and replacing him with Cook we lost all shape and direction.
Just got home. Wasn't the worst performance. We wasn't THAT bad but weren't that great either. Didn't think Middlesborough were that great. Hulse was terrible and I don't know why we dropped the 4-5-1.
Can the people who think that Stephens is our best footballer please explain what he does consistently well?
Yes I'd be interested to hear the response too.
Not a fan then Len? Obviously our management team and the scouts from Villa see something in him as did Nigel Adkins at Southampton. Like Ross_cafc earlier implied he has got that air of confidence about him when on the ball always looking to receive it in tight situations looks to spread the play and tries to make something happen but often you are only as good as the players around you. He never hides, likes a tackle and IMO is similar to a young Michael Carrick of Man United. Just to clarify I don't think he is our 'best' footballer that is Chris Solly but at his young age he has a lot of potential. Give the lad a break and try and see the good in him.
Said it against Leicester, and we ended up winning!
But...as a team, our style of play is predictable and easy to play against. It's a very rigid 442 without any freedom of movement (except from the odd occasion). No movement off the ball, no pulling opposition players all over the place, their defenders must love it; we pass sidewards a few times, go down the flank, cross the ball which either: a) doesn't beat the first man, or b) it's over hit!
IMO we are very predictable, especially if we start losing. Players hang around the edge if the "d", expecting/hoping the ball will fall to their feet and get a shot on goal.
Personally would go 4-5-1 at home keeps us solid and tough to beat. It may be defensive at home but I'd rather that than lose every week.
Personally can't wait for Kerms to be back. We're in for a battle and having him rough up centre backs and lead from the front gets us going and the crowd add in Fuller and Wiggins and we might have a team which can compete.
After Cardiff we have 4 very winnable games need to get behind CP and the team and we could get a healthy amount of points from it
I can see why people think Dale is a good footballer. He is technically good and looks comfortable on the ball. There is a but coming though. He sits far too deep and never ever runs forward with the ball. Often far easier to sit deep and spray balls sideways than it is to take command and hurt the opposition. I think Dale needs to grow some and start using his talent. At present he is a wasted talent for us and if we can still get anywhere near that reported £2 million then we need to grab it and invest it into the team. He's a luxury we can't afford.
I thought Stephens was shite today. In fact apart from the opening few games last season in league 1, I think his been pretty shite all the time bar the odd game here and there.
I can see why people think Dale is a good footballer. He is technically good and looks comfortable on the ball. There is a but coming though. He sits far too deep and never ever runs forward with the ball. Often far easier to sit deep and spray balls sideways than it is to take command and hurt the opposition. I think Dale needs to grow some and start using his talent. At present he is a wasted talent for us and if we can still get anywhere near that reported £2 million then we need to grab it and invest it into the team. He's a luxury we can't afford.
I think he suffers from having players who don't have the same style/vision of play around him to be fair. If we had the players to play more possession/passing football he would come into his own, but the quality and style of players is more direct and less intricate. The Carrick comparison is a good one (in terms of style), he will keep things running without ever bossing a midfield.
I am really really worried and probably one of the biggest doom and gloomers on the board but it would take something a lot worse than this for me to consider a management change. Although with our the rumours about a new chairman and whatever, I am starting to worry that it may be a possibility. Give Powell some money to get some more quality and I'm sure he can sort it out.
I am really really worried and probably one of the biggest doom and gloomers on the board but it would take something a lot worse than this for me to consider a management change. Although with our the rumours about a new chairman and whatever, I am starting to worry that it may be a possibility. Give Powell some money to get some more quality and I'm sure he can sort it out.
Agree wholeheartedly. You can't make a silver purse out of a sows ear and I'm sorry to say that our current team has a few too many sows ears for The Championship.
It seems the only player who doesn't appear to have got a complete c**ting is Wilson. Who would've thought that three or four weeks ago?
But please, it's one thing say "X didn't have a good game", or "Y looked out of sorts", etc, but why does it always have to be "X is shit", "Y is garbage" yardy yardy yar.
Oh, and we're "relegated already" according to some numbnuts. FFS, People need t get a grip. The first sign of trouble and people on here wet their knickers. The same as they did last season, the same as they will do every season.
I have to say that today's result has caused the biggest over reaction I have ever seen. The loons have really come out tonight ( you know who you are )
We are not in the bottom three yet the nut cases have CP out of a job and telling us we are doomed. I was at Wolves last week where we could and should have got three points and three days before we got a great draw at Elland Rd.
Sure to day was crap but only the second half.
We have injuries to our best players which is guaranteed to impact on the team and Chris Powell hasn't all of a sudden become a shit manager.
Stop over reacting and get behind the team on Tuesday and as for the Loons , bugger of and get back in your pesimistic little boxes.
Comments
Despite the magnitude of the defeat today I actually feel more optimistic than I did after the Barnsley match as I felt that the Boro goals were essentially down to our errors or chasing the game rather than their superior ability.
We started off well and competed well and I think were well worth our lead from a well taken Rob Hulse goal.
Our defence made a rare error in allowing Woodgate the freedom of The Valley to head in their equaliser but we took the game back to them until the turning point of the match, in my opinion, Lawrie Wilson's injury.
Stephens came on for Wilson and slouched about most of the time and his laziness led to their second goal in my view when he made little or no effort to compete for a loose ball which enable Boro to expose us down the right for another well taken goal. The other consequence of accommodating Stephens was the loss of Pritchard's energy and bite in central areas where he was pretty effective in the first half.
Powell then (rightly in my view) tried to give us more attacking impetus by going to 3 at the back but, especially with a lazy powderpuff like Stephens mincing around midfield, that left us open to being caught on the break which essentially was the story of the third and fourth goals.
The injuries are really hurting us now. Kerkar worked hard and did his best but he is in no way a left back. I hope to God Wilson's injury is not too serious but won't be holding my breath.
Powell is the man and 21st after 46 league games will be an excellent season!
Yes I'd be interested to hear the response too.
We desperately miss fuller and no bullshit, brutal, centre half frightening running up top. Big man to get his head to the ball for smaller forward to aim for is not a tactic.
The injury list really don't help, what helps is having a board show and keep faith in a manager. We could have kicked on this year and kept momentum. The board gave the manager sod all to work with and now we are seeing the fruits of that investment
This promotion lark isn't what it's cracked up to be.
.... have to add that although a Stephens fan, he didn't have a good game (that pass!) but to say he was the cause is pathetic. Also his sideways passes were annoying but when the rest of the team are lined up on the edge of the box like a school team with no movement and no-one linking to help him, what do you expect. Joke tactics.
The substitution at the half was mystifying. We had a natural right midfielder on the bench in Green and that would have been a like for like switch, enabling us to keep our shape and formation. Instead, by bringing on Stephens in the middle and pushing Pritchard outside we were again playing someone (Pritchard) out of position. Why does Chris do that? Coupled with this, I was hearing that Stephens was playing much too deep so it was inviting Boro on to us. In the first half it sounded like the midfield were playing further up the field which limited Boro to long distance stuff (apart from the Woodgate goal of course).
Finally, by bringing off Cort and replacing him with Cook we lost all shape and direction.
Not a good day at the office for CP.
But...as a team, our style of play is predictable and easy to play against. It's a very rigid 442 without any freedom of movement (except from the odd occasion). No movement off the ball, no pulling opposition players all over the place, their defenders must love it; we pass sidewards a few times, go down the flank, cross the ball which either: a) doesn't beat the first man, or b) it's over hit!
IMO we are very predictable, especially if we start losing. Players hang around the edge if the "d", expecting/hoping the ball will fall to their feet and get a shot on goal.
Movement, movement, movement, try it, it works!
Personally can't wait for Kerms to be back. We're in for a battle and having him rough up centre backs and lead from the front gets us going and the crowd add in Fuller and Wiggins and we might have a team which can compete.
After Cardiff we have 4 very winnable games need to get behind CP and the team and we could get a healthy amount of points from it
It seems the only player who doesn't appear to have got a complete c**ting is Wilson. Who would've thought that three or four weeks ago?
But please, it's one thing say "X didn't have a good game", or "Y looked out of sorts", etc, but why does it always have to be "X is shit", "Y is garbage" yardy yardy yar.
Oh, and we're "relegated already" according to some numbnuts. FFS, People need t get a grip. The first sign of trouble and people on here wet their knickers. The same as they did last season, the same as they will do every season.
Pathetic.
The loons have really come out tonight ( you know who you are )
We are not in the bottom three yet the nut cases have CP out of a job and telling us we are doomed.
I was at Wolves last week where we could and should have got three points and three days before we got a great draw at Elland Rd.
Sure to day was crap but only the second half.
We have injuries to our best players which is guaranteed to impact on the team and Chris Powell hasn't all of a sudden become a shit manager.
Stop over reacting and get behind the team on Tuesday and as for the Loons , bugger of and get back in your pesimistic little boxes.