Where have they got the Polish guys DNA from to match it to the shroud ?
From his direct descendants. Thing is this only confirms that they came into contact at some point close to her death, it may be enough for me but doubt it is enough to be convicted these days.
As years have gone by, I've become increasingly of the opinion that it's better that we don't know. The murders achieved legendary status, almost entirely because of the unsolved status of the case. It's interesting and I'm guilty in the past of spending time studying the case to try to form an informed opinion, (I used to be in the Montague Druitt camp, but I'm now pretty sure that he's highly unlikely to be Jack - a shame, because his story was a good one), but I think we need to accept that we may never know now. The legend will go on, and rightly so. As gruesome as these real life murders were, their very nature and the mystery clouding them has been inspiration for some wonderful literature, art, theatre, film etc. over the years and long may it continue. Apart from anything else, any evidence uncovered now, including the evidence in these latest revelations, can only be circumstantial at best. It may support certain claims but we'll never know for sure. I say leave it. It's history.
Do we know what type of DNA sample was on the shawl ? I'm presuming it was semen rather than blood or hair and if so then it does throw a different perspective onto the "type" of contact that Kosminski had with the victim. Blood or semen could mean completely different scenarios were played out.
It's compelling if the "science" behind it is sound and peer reviewed but not quite conclusive.
Do we know what type of DNA sample was on the shawl ? I'm presuming it was semen rather than blood or hair and if so then it does throw a different perspective onto the "type" of contact that Kosminski had with the victim. Blood or semen could mean completely different scenarios were played out.
It's compelling if the "science" behind it is sound and peer reviewed but not quite conclusive.
I thought the article said it was blood from the shroud.
Do we know what type of DNA sample was on the shawl ? I'm presuming it was semen rather than blood or hair and if so then it does throw a different perspective onto the "type" of contact that Kosminski had with the victim. Blood or semen could mean completely different scenarios were played out.
It's compelling if the "science" behind it is sound and peer reviewed but not quite conclusive.
I thought the article said it was blood from the shroud.
Now, why/how would Jack have spilt his own blood? Inopportune nose bleed was it? And on the one item of clothing available to be tested? Convenient that, for someone with a book to sell.... (Cross reference to Conspiracy Theory thread!) I wonder if the DNA could just possibly be an exact match to another of the Polish descendants by any chance?
Do we know what type of DNA sample was on the shawl ? I'm presuming it was semen rather than blood or hair and if so then it does throw a different perspective onto the "type" of contact that Kosminski had with the victim. Blood or semen could mean completely different scenarios were played out.
It's compelling if the "science" behind it is sound and peer reviewed but not quite conclusive.
I thought the article said it was blood from the shroud.
Now, why/how would Jack have spilt his own blood? Inopportune nose bleed was it? And on the one item of clothing available to be tested? Convenient that, for someone with a book to sell.... (Cross reference to Conspiracy Theory thread!) I wonder if the DNA could just possibly be an exact match to another of the Polish descendants by any chance?
I presume the victim fought back before he killed her. Perhaps she scratched him or bit him etc, making him bleed. Its plausible.
Do we know what type of DNA sample was on the shawl ? I'm presuming it was semen rather than blood or hair and if so then it does throw a different perspective onto the "type" of contact that Kosminski had with the victim. Blood or semen could mean completely different scenarios were played out.
It's compelling if the "science" behind it is sound and peer reviewed but not quite conclusive.
I thought the article said it was blood from the shroud.
Now, why/how would Jack have spilt his own blood? Inopportune nose bleed was it? And on the one item of clothing available to be tested? Convenient that, for someone with a book to sell.... (Cross reference to Conspiracy Theory thread!) I wonder if the DNA could just possibly be an exact match to another of the Polish descendants by any chance?
I presume the victim fought back before he killed her. Perhaps she scratched him or bit him etc, making him bleed. Its plausible.
Or his attacks were very frenzied and as he hacked, probably with some form of cut throat razor he cut himself slightly.
I am not an expert but I seem to recall that the victim in this case was the only one who wasn't given the full 'Ripper' mutilation, and there was another victim (who WAS ripped up) very shortly afterwards. The theory goes that he was interrupted first time around and took it out on victim no. 2, but it seems possible to me that the two women were attacked by different people, so while Kominsky might be 'A' Ripper, he's not necessarily 'THE' Ripper.
Is this still technically an unsolved crime ? So for instance if the evidence that this chap has come up with was compelling enough could it ever technically be solved ? I assume not as there is no-one to be tried (can you be tried in absentia after your death ?).
Do we know what type of DNA sample was on the shawl ? I'm presuming it was semen rather than blood or hair and if so then it does throw a different perspective onto the "type" of contact that Kosminski had with the victim. Blood or semen could mean completely different scenarios were played out.
It's compelling if the "science" behind it is sound and peer reviewed but not quite conclusive.
I thought the article said it was blood from the shroud.
Now, why/how would Jack have spilt his own blood? Inopportune nose bleed was it? And on the one item of clothing available to be tested? Convenient that, for someone with a book to sell.... (Cross reference to Conspiracy Theory thread!) I wonder if the DNA could just possibly be an exact match to another of the Polish descendants by any chance?
Jari used the same extraction method on the semen traces on the shawl, warning that the likelihood of sperm lasting all that time was very slim. He enlisted the help of Dr David Miller, a world expert on the subject, and in 2012 they made another incredible breakthrough when they found surviving cells. They were from the epithelium, a type of tissue which coats organs. In this case, it was likely to have come from the urethra during ejaculation.
Do we know what type of DNA sample was on the shawl ? I'm presuming it was semen rather than blood or hair and if so then it does throw a different perspective onto the "type" of contact that Kosminski had with the victim. Blood or semen could mean completely different scenarios were played out.
It's compelling if the "science" behind it is sound and peer reviewed but not quite conclusive.
I thought the article said it was blood from the shroud.
Now, why/how would Jack have spilt his own blood? Inopportune nose bleed was it?
The evidence - if 100% accurate - only puts Catherine Eddowes and Aaron Kosminski on the shawl. And it has not been tested to determine whether other suspects' DNA was on the shawl. For example, if Montague Druitt's DNA was also on the shawl, what could we infer from that?
Catherine Eddowes was a prostitute, murdered, one hour later, on the same night, as Elizabeth Stride. Has Elizabeth's DNA also been found on the shawl? If not, do we assume that the murders were committed by different people?
Catherine Eddowes had a fierce temper. Yet, apparently there is no blood on the shawl that matches the DNA extracted from the semen trace from Kosminski. Are we supposed to believe that he was not injured during the attack? Or even both attacks, if he was supposed to be Elizabeth's killer too?
Catherine Eddowes, could afford just twopence for her night's stay in a Bermondsey doss house the night before she died. And on the day she was murdered, she visited her only daughter, to borrow more money. Yet we are supposed to believe that she wore an expensive, Eastern European, hand-made shawl?
Catherine's blood-stained apron was found in Goulston Street a few minutes after the murder. Was this also tested?
There are still plenty of unanswered questions. So anyone - like me - who hopes this case is still wide open, will be happy...
Semen on a prostitutes garments might tie the two individuals together but concluding it was murder and not a transaction is a big leap. I doubt the shawl was regularly laundered given the habit of Eddowes so it is quite possible that the semen had been on the shawl weeks or possibly months before the night of her death.
Just another interesting theory about Jack the Ripper that cannot be proven.
I didn't realise the ripper had sex with his victims, how do we know this?
anyone remember adam adamant, perhaps he knows?
The most common (cheapest?) form of contraception was douching. I'm guessing it was not very reliable!
I do remember reading somewhere that Victorian street prostitutes often used anal sex as a sure-fire way of preventing pregnancy. (Pregnancy, presumably, would not have been great for trade.) This "bend over for a quickie in the back alley" (actually as well as metaphorically ) stance was also claimed to be how Jack would have managed his first slice through the throat without the prostitute even being aware that he was carrying a blade. One can only guess as to whether any of that has any truth to it.
According to Viz they claim that Blakey from On the Buses is Jack the Ripper. The thin lipped fictional bus inspector was so consumed by hatred for Stan Butler and his lazy conductor Jack Harper that it caused a tear in the fabric of the space- time continuum through which Blakey was able to travel back to the 1880's.
According to Viz they claim that Blakey from On the Buses is Jack the Ripper. The thin lipped fictional bus inspector was so consumed by hatred for Stan Butler and his lazy conductor Jack Harper that it caused a tear in the fabric of the space- time continuum through which Blakey was able to travel back to the 1880's.
According to Viz they claim that Blakey from On the Buses is Jack the Ripper. The thin lipped fictional bus inspector was so consumed by hatred for Stan Butler and his lazy conductor Jack Harper that it caused a tear in the fabric of the space- time continuum through which Blakey was able to travel back to the 1880's.
Viz is hit and miss, eh?
That's probably closer than the Daily Sports version though.............
John Montague Druitt - schooolmaster, teaching in Blackheath. Misogynist, homosexual. Probably mad. Threw himself in the Thames in December 1888. It's almost impossible for him to have committed the first murder (Polly Nicholls) as he was playing cricket in Dorset the next day.
Seweryn Kłosowski (aka George Chapman) - Polish migrant, arrived in the UK a few months before the first murder. Violent. Misogynist. Lived in Whitechapel. Worked as a barber. Murdered three of his wives. Took the same name as the second victim about five years later. Had a tremendous moustache (a witness said the murderer of Elizabeth Stride had a large moustache).
(Aaron?) Kosminski - Polish barber. Mad. Lived in Whitechapel. In 2014, mitochondrial DNA showed a female line descendant match between Kosminski and a shawl owned by fourth victim Catherine Eddowes.
Michael Ostrog - Russian. So, you know, probably dunnit. Even though he was in prison in France at the time.
John Pizer - Prior conviction for stabbing. Known as "Leather Apron" (an early contemporary nickname for Jack the Ripper). Had alibis for at least two of the murders, including a copper. I have only included him because he's sometimes known as John Piser, which is a bit funny.
James Thomas Sadler - A friend of fifth and final victim Frances Coles (a Whitechapel Murder victim, but not classed as a Jack the Ripper victim). He was at sea during the Ripper murders, so it's clear it wasn't him.
Francis Tumblety - misogynist. Quack. Pick pocket. Homosexual. Enormous moustache. Born in Ireland, grew up in the United States. Accused to be complicit in the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. Visited London in the 1880s, living in Whitechapel for a few months at the same time as the Ripper murders.
Prince Albert Victor - Don't be ridiculous. Why would anyone think that a member of the Royal Family would have anything suspicious to hide? Lots of rumours about him. No mention anywhere of him having visited the Woking branch of Pizza Express.
Chizz, I saw a programme a long time ago that accused an assistant in the Coroner/Pathologist office who helped with all the murdered women's bodies. Cannot remember his name, over to you
Comments
The murders achieved legendary status, almost entirely because of the unsolved status of the case.
It's interesting and I'm guilty in the past of spending time studying the case to try to form an informed opinion, (I used to be in the Montague Druitt camp, but I'm now pretty sure that he's highly unlikely to be Jack - a shame, because his story was a good one), but I think we need to accept that we may never know now. The legend will go on, and rightly so. As gruesome as these real life murders were, their very nature and the mystery clouding them has been inspiration for some wonderful literature, art, theatre, film etc. over the years and long may it continue.
Apart from anything else, any evidence uncovered now, including the evidence in these latest revelations, can only be circumstantial at best. It may support certain claims but we'll never know for sure.
I say leave it. It's history.
It's compelling if the "science" behind it is sound and peer reviewed but not quite conclusive.
I wonder if the DNA could just possibly be an exact match to another of the Polish descendants by any chance?
Or his attacks were very frenzied and as he hacked, probably with some form of cut throat razor he cut himself slightly.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746321/Jack-Ripper-unmasked-How-amateur-sleuth-used-DNA-breakthrough-identify-Britains-notorious-criminal-126-years-string-terrible-murders.html
Jari used the same extraction method on the semen traces on the shawl, warning that the likelihood of sperm lasting all that time was very slim. He enlisted the help of Dr David Miller, a world expert on the subject, and in 2012 they made another incredible breakthrough when they found surviving cells. They were from the epithelium, a type of tissue which coats organs. In this case, it was likely to have come from the urethra during ejaculation.
Catherine Eddowes was a prostitute, murdered, one hour later, on the same night, as Elizabeth Stride. Has Elizabeth's DNA also been found on the shawl? If not, do we assume that the murders were committed by different people?
Catherine Eddowes had a fierce temper. Yet, apparently there is no blood on the shawl that matches the DNA extracted from the semen trace from Kosminski. Are we supposed to believe that he was not injured during the attack? Or even both attacks, if he was supposed to be Elizabeth's killer too?
Catherine Eddowes, could afford just twopence for her night's stay in a Bermondsey doss house the night before she died. And on the day she was murdered, she visited her only daughter, to borrow more money. Yet we are supposed to believe that she wore an expensive, Eastern European, hand-made shawl?
Catherine's blood-stained apron was found in Goulston Street a few minutes after the murder. Was this also tested?
There are still plenty of unanswered questions. So anyone - like me - who hopes this case is still wide open, will be happy...
Just another interesting theory about Jack the Ripper that cannot be proven.
anyone remember adam adamant, perhaps he knows?
I do remember reading somewhere that Victorian street prostitutes often used anal sex as a sure-fire way of preventing pregnancy. (Pregnancy, presumably, would not have been great for trade.) This "bend over for a quickie in the back alley" (actually as well as metaphorically ) stance was also claimed to be how Jack would have managed his first slice through the throat without the prostitute even being aware that he was carrying a blade. One can only guess as to whether any of that has any truth to it.
Seweryn Kłosowski (aka George Chapman) - Polish migrant, arrived in the UK a few months before the first murder. Violent. Misogynist. Lived in Whitechapel. Worked as a barber. Murdered three of his wives. Took the same name as the second victim about five years later. Had a tremendous moustache (a witness said the murderer of Elizabeth Stride had a large moustache).
(Aaron?) Kosminski - Polish barber. Mad. Lived in Whitechapel. In 2014, mitochondrial DNA showed a female line descendant match between Kosminski and a shawl owned by fourth victim Catherine Eddowes.
Michael Ostrog - Russian. So, you know, probably dunnit. Even though he was in prison in France at the time.
John Pizer - Prior conviction for stabbing. Known as "Leather Apron" (an early contemporary nickname for Jack the Ripper). Had alibis for at least two of the murders, including a copper. I have only included him because he's sometimes known as John Piser, which is a bit funny.
James Thomas Sadler - A friend of fifth and final victim Frances Coles (a Whitechapel Murder victim, but not classed as a Jack the Ripper victim). He was at sea during the Ripper murders, so it's clear it wasn't him.
Francis Tumblety - misogynist. Quack. Pick pocket. Homosexual. Enormous moustache. Born in Ireland, grew up in the United States. Accused to be complicit in the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. Visited London in the 1880s, living in Whitechapel for a few months at the same time as the Ripper murders.
Prince Albert Victor - Don't be ridiculous. Why would anyone think that a member of the Royal Family would have anything suspicious to hide? Lots of rumours about him. No mention anywhere of him having visited the Woking branch of Pizza Express.
Lewis Carroll - just no