Once more we are jumping to some conclusions based on little info. And i doubt we'll be getting any direct info from the club, so that is all we can do right now. Airman certainly made some major statements about the clubs position over the summer - one even casting doubt over our ability to complete this season. Many other sectors this would lead to disciplinary action. Previous boards may of protected him but this board are different and with different connections to our past. Right or wrong they currently own the keys to the castle and will run it however they see fit. I am a fan recruited through the selhurst days and am grateful to all who helped us have our own ground again. However I believe like in every business things move on, not always the way we want but that is the reality. New board, new ideas, new tactics, new relationship with the fans.
An employee who wants to bring a claim for unfair dismissal must get his / her ET1 claim document into the Stratford employment tribunal central office or the one on Kingsway within 3 months of the deemed date of dismissal .
Going to a part on the 29 th which I'm lead to believe that TJ will be at after a few beers anyone got any questions that you want me to be asking?
Thank you, I do have some questions.
1. Last season the aim was promotion and that was duly delivered. Once it became clear that promotion was achieved, what goal did the Board have for the following (this) season?
2. If the goal was to go straight through the division, what % increase in transfer and salary budget was assumed to be needed in order to achieve this remarkable goal? Was this budget increase actually provided?
3. Since from the outside it seems that this budget increase was not provided, is that because expected investment from individual backers was not forthcoming? Has an alternative investment now been found, or does the search continue?
4. Does Mr Jiminez believe that within the transfer and salary constraints the manager should be left to manage, specifically that the manager alone identifies whom he wants to sign? If he does not believe this but instead believes directors have the skills to identify players, can he cite examples of where this was successful, either here or at other clubs?
I just can't accept this latest move. Isn't there anything we can do? I understand that the basic problems remain lack of Cash and cash, but that to me seems all the more reason to try and ensure the other cornerstones aren't broken up. TJ is going to need us on side and chucking out Airman has knocked me sideways and alienated me further. I want to do something other than moan and, IMO, we need something more immediate than the Trust
All credit to Alwen and co and hats off to The Valley Party and it's contributors but would we have got back without the catalysts of Rick (and Dicko)?
Yes, probably.
Unbelievable
Why, am I not allowed a view on this?
Some people make it sound as though he built the ground on his own. He played a massive role - no doubt about that - but without "Alwen & Co", who seem so easily forgotten now, it wouldn't have had a happy ending.
You've given your view. It's there for all to read. I happen to think it's obviously wrong, because you either don't know or have forgotten, your history.
Alwen and Norris submitted their planning application to return to the Valley. The Council, in a staged meeting which the then crumbling East European states would have been proud of, rejected it. CAFC was dead in the water. However thanks to Rick and Steve's VOTV, a few of us had managed to at least co-ordinate our voice at that meeting. The next morning, still devastated by what had happened the previous night, I listened to GLR's report and heard the defiant voice of Roy King, previously unknown to me, saying "We will not let this stand. The Valley Party will contest all 62 seats in the forthcoming local elections". And you know what happened after that.
Of course, Rick and the rest of us didn't have the money to build the Valley. But without Rick there wouldn't have been a Valley Party, and so Roger Alwen and later Richard Murray and Martin Simons wouldn't have had a Valley to rebuild
But Airman's contribution doesn't end there. One of the most heartening aspects of the post-return years has been the progressive development of our fan base. I think I'm right in saying last season was a record or close to it for a third tier season. Maintaining our supporter base and especially the season tickets gives the club a stable income base. This has been achieved by skilful pricing and offers. However CAFC has been positioned as an affordable business not because it is good PR but because it is the best business model for the club. Target 10,000 was not universally welcomed by the board at the time but Richard Murray understood the logic and was prepared to support it. For all his admirable qualities, Roger Alwen did not. Thankfully Richard was in a position to prevail, the strategy delivered and the rest is history. Peter Varney and Steve Kavanagh also got the business model (Waggott did not) and this has provided the stability for Rick to do develop the strategies everyone has rightly praised.
For a comparison look at the prices for Ipswich - £34 put me off straight away. Those of us who post here may well be committed whatever the price but not everyone is or can be.
Without the three referred to in Seth's header there is no real advocate left at the club for this approach. Losing all three is bad news but if the board moves away from the business model those three have developed the club really will be facing disaster.
I am a fan recruited through the selhurst days and am grateful to all who helped us have our own ground again. However I believe like in every business things move on, not always the way we want but that is the reality. New board, new ideas, new tactics, new relationship with the fans.
You started going when we were at Selhurst, you say? That would explain why, in my opinion, you don't have a good grasp of the unique nature of a football club as a business. When you say "things move on" what exactly do you mean beyond a vague platitude? When a normal business 'moves on' successfully it is a carefully thought out move designed to increase revenue from increasingly satisfied customers. What "moving on' have you discerned that will achieve this? Are you aware that the original move to Selhurst was presented as a classic example of ' businessmoving on', as you can see on the video posted here last week?
And while I used the word "customer' I regard regularly attending fans as stakeholders, who should expect a greater degree of dialogue with club owners than for example customers of Sainsbury's would expect. Do you agree?
Other than on this thread, there is no suggestion that Powell may be sacked or that there is any friction between him and the board that appointed him. Difficult as it might be for some of you, try and stick to the facts.
... provide a two-way communication by which an enlightened Board can explain and help us understand the realities of the financial situation, and manage expectations of the broader fan base.
All credit to Alwen and co and hats off to The Valley Party and it's contributors but would we have got back without the catalysts of Rick (and Dicko)?
Yes, probably.
Unbelievable
Why, am I not allowed a view on this?
Some people make it sound as though he built the ground on his own. He played a massive role - no doubt about that - but without "Alwen & Co", who seem so easily forgotten now, it wouldn't have had a happy ending.
You've given your view. It's there for all to read. I happen to think it's obviously wrong, because you either don't know or have forgotten, your history.
Alwen and Norris submitted their planning application to return to the Valley. The Council, in a staged meeting which the then crumbling East European states would have been proud of, rejected it. CAFC was dead in the water. However thanks to Rick and Steve's VOTV, a few of us had managed to at least co-ordinate our voice at that meeting. The next morning, still devastated by what had happened the previous night, I listened to GLR's report and heard the defiant voice of Roy King, previously unknown to me, saying "We will not let this stand. The Valley Party will contest all 62 seats in the forthcoming local elections". And you know what happened after that.
Of course, Rick and the rest of us didn't have the money to build the Valley. But without Rick there wouldn't have been a Valley Party, and so Roger Alwen and later Richard Murray and Martin Simons wouldn't have had a Valley to rebuild
But Airman's contribution doesn't end there. One of the most heartening aspects of the post-return years has been the progressive development of our fan base. I think I'm right in saying last season was a record or close to it for a third tier season. Maintaining our supporter base and especially the season tickets gives the club a stable income base. This has been achieved by skilful pricing and offers. However CAFC has been positioned as an affordable business not because it is good PR but because it is the best business model for the club. Target 10,000 was not universally welcomed by the board at the time but Richard Murray understood the logic and was prepared to support it. For all his admirable qualities, Roger Alwen did not. Thankfully Richard was in a position to prevail, the strategy delivered and the rest is history. Peter Varney and Steve Kavanagh also got the business model (Waggott did not) and this has provided the stability for Rick to do develop the strategies everyone has rightly praised.
For a comparison look at the prices for Ipswich - £34 put me off straight away. Those of us who post here may well be committed whatever the price but not everyone is or can be.
Without the three referred to in Seth's header there is no real advocate left at the club for this approach. Losing all three is bad news but if the board moves away from the business model those three have developed the club really will be facing disaster.
Excellent post, of course I agree with every word.
You started going when we were at Selhurst, you say? That would explain why, in my opinion, you don't have a good grasp of the unique nature of a football club as a business.
I don't think you mean this, but I hope you're not implying that fans that were too young to go to The Valley pre-Selhurst can't have a "good grasp" of the situation...
Guest apperances from staff and players being stopped,lets hope not.
I emailed Chris Parkes at the Trg Ground last week regarding a request for Club personnel for a NWKA Q & A meeting ( Chris was designated as our contact last season)
So far , I have yet to receive an acknowledgement or response which is highly unusual for CP.
Hopefully, there is an explanation for this, but only time will tell.
I'll keep you posted as to the outcome of my enquiry.
You started going when we were at Selhurst, you say? That would explain why, in my opinion, you don't have a good grasp of the unique nature of a football club as a business.
I don't think you mean this, but I hope you're not implying that fans that were too young to go to The Valley pre-Selhurst can't have a "good grasp" of the situation...
That's how it reads. If you weren't on the barricades back in the day your opinion counts for shit, apparently.
I just can't accept this latest move. Isn't there anything we can do? I understand that the basic problems remain lack of Cash and cash, but that to me seems all the more reason to try and ensure the other cornerstones aren't broken up. TJ is going to need us on side and chucking out Airman has knocked me sideways and alienated me further. I want to do something other than moan and, IMO, we need something more immediate than the Trust
I'm working on a petition to TJ idea at the mo. I'm wondering if he understands just how badly supporters will take this news so maybe he needs to be told?
Good point - TBH, if i had put a shed load of dosh into a venture, i wouldnt want (or need) some oik slagging me off behind my back, regardless.
Yes but he's not just some oik, is he? Apart from the Valley fight, he went on to do sterling work for years helping to build the fanbase under the Murray-Simons regime. People have listed some of the things but lets do it again: Target 10/40,000, Kids for a Quid, Valley Express, the direct marketing efforts of later years, the willingness to sort out every single request from fans who approached him ready to spend money on Charlton if only they could overcome some obstacle (as you yourself mentioned).
He is, I grant you, not an easy person to manage in a corporate structure. But this is a people business. Unlike wheeling and dealing in property.
Well said PA.
I have never met Rick but I have corresponded with him on occasion via the Pink Oboe list and directly.
He always comes across as somebody in who's heart beats the heart of the club. Getting rid of him is a serious mistake if this is what has happened.
Living where I do, sometimes it has been difficult to get down to collect tickets, especially in the Premier League days. Each time I raised this on a forum Rick personally sorted it out for me.
As for the other things you have listed, I do not believe that any club in the country has been better served in building its fan base than we have been by the Airman.
Captain Black and the Mysterons, if you are reading this, and I am sure you are, you have just made a big mistake - huge!
You started going when we were at Selhurst, you say? That would explain why, in my opinion, you don't have a good grasp of the unique nature of a football club as a business.
I don't think you mean this, but I hope you're not implying that fans that were too young to go to The Valley pre-Selhurst can't have a "good grasp" of the situation...
That's how it reads. If you weren't on the barricades back in the day your opinion counts for shit, apparently.
I didn't go to a Charlton 'home' game til Upton Park so I guess I can't really comment either.
You started going when we were at Selhurst, you say? That would explain why, in my opinion, you don't have a good grasp of the unique nature of a football club as a business.
I don't think you mean this, but I hope you're not implying that fans that were too young to go to The Valley pre-Selhurst can't have a "good grasp" of the situation...
That's how it reads. If you weren't on the barricades back in the day your opinion counts for shit, apparently.
I didn't go to a Charlton 'home' game til Upton Park so I guess I can't really comment either.
Good point - TBH, if i had put a shed load of dosh into a venture, i wouldnt want (or need) some oik slagging me off behind my back, regardless.
Yes but he's not just some oik, is he? Apart from the Valley fight, he went on to do sterling work for years helping to build the fanbase under the Murray-Simons regime. People have listed some of the things but lets do it again: Target 10/40,000, Kids for a Quid, Valley Express, the direct marketing efforts of later years, the willingness to sort out every single request from fans who approached him ready to spend money on Charlton if only they could overcome some obstacle (as you yourself mentioned).
He is, I grant you, not an easy person to manage in a corporate structure. But this is a people business. Unlike wheeling and dealing in property.
Well said PA.
I have never met Rick but I have corresponded with him on occasion via the Pink Oboe list and directly.
He always comes across as somebody in who's heart beats the heart of the club. Getting rid of him is a serious mistake if this is what has happened.
Living where I do, sometimes it has been difficult to get down to collect tickets, especially in the Premier League days. Each time I raised this on a forum Rick personally sorted it out for me.
As for the other things you have listed, I do not believe that any club in the country has been better served in building its fan base than we have been by the Airman.
Captain Black and the Mysterons, if you are reading this, and I am sure you are, you have just made a big mistake - huge!
As was said above, the new owners appear to want to have a closed club with the supporters on the outside. This, added to the fact that Airman is apparently being sacked for posting information on here, can only lead to the conclusion that the Board are monitoring sites like this very closely. I think that AFKA & Lookout need to watch carefully what is posted on here; the board will probably be looking for any excuse to get this site closed down.
You started going when we were at Selhurst, you say? That would explain why, in my opinion, you don't have a good grasp of the unique nature of a football club as a business.
I don't think you mean this, but I hope you're not implying that fans that were too young to go to The Valley pre-Selhurst can't have a "good grasp" of the situation...
No that is not what I meant at all, although I can see why it was taken that way and regret that.
What I mean is that a football club is a part of and a symbol of a community. It gives people a sense of where they come from. That is extremely important in a big place like London. And that is why the move to Selhurst was doomed to failure. To those of us going to Charlton at the time, Croydon was an alien place that wasn't part of our daily life.
If Bangkok Dave was recruited in the Selhurst years I take it - and if I am wrong he will doubtless put me right - that he didnt have the same strong ties to the Charlton manor/tribe which at the time would have been Greenwich, Bexley and out towards Kent, and/or whose family (father/grandfather) were themselves Charlton. In which case that would explain why he sees no big problem in losing those at Charlton who have always deeply understood what our roots actually are, and how they can be developed to optimise attendances.
I have read a number of comments on Charlton Life from Rick over the last year or two and crosssed my fingers that we are not run by blinkered, corporate-minded control freaks with no vision of the bigger picture - because there is little doubt that from time to time he has potentially given them the amunition to use against him, should they chose to be so petty.
The comments about his disagreements with Murray are revealing. Murray was smart enough to realise that RE always argued from the perspective of what was best for CAFC and that , therefore, he had better listen to Rick's criticisms and take them on board.
The current lot would appear not to understand that and, unlike RE, may possibly have agendas other than the best long-term interests of CAFC.
Looking on the bright side, and I know that's not easy atm. There are obviously things happening at the club that are of great concern to those whose sole motivation is the future of CAFC. Whilst under the employ of the club it would be probably be extremely frustrating and very difficult to articulate any concerns and also to have any influence over trying to improve the situation. In this case perhaps it would be more beneficial to have guys like Peter Varney and Rick on the outside looking in. One thing is for sure, they aint going away just because they no longer work for the club.
The comments about his disagreements with Murray are revealing. Murray was smart enough to realise that RE always argued from the perspective of what was best for CAFC and that , therefore, he had better listen to Rick's criticisms and take them on board.
The current lot would appear not to understand that and, unlike RE, may possibly have agendas other than the best long-term of interests of CAFC.
Yes, and it was a two-way thing with Rick and Richard. Over time Richard educated Rick (and other fans who became closely involved with the club) on the business realities, turning him from an activist into an excellent marketing manager. It's called human capital nowadays, and businesses waste it at their peril.
Oh christ. After the disappointment (to put it mildly) of Friday night, I couldn't face looking at the site yesterday. Then come on this morning and see this.
Readily admit I don't know Rick - only ever spoke to him once - but as a long-standing supporter I do know the huge part he played in getting the club back to the Valley and what he has done ever since in building up our support. OK, of course, there were others involved but without Rick acting as the catalyst to get things going, the groundswell to get Charlton back to the Valley would never have built up in the way it did.
And who can doubt that having a real Charlton fan on the staff wasn't a good thing? Let me give you just one very small example that sticks in my mind. I've got all the end of season videos/DVDs going back a good few years and remember being disappointed when the club said it wouldn't produce one for 2007/08 and 08/09 - understandably maybe but still disappointing not to maintain the history of the club on record. It was Rick who drove through the eventual production of a DVD for those seasons aginst a host of problems. I dropped Rick an e-mail saying "thanks for pursuing this matter so doggedly. I suspect it would have been really easy to say sod it when you had all the production difficulties but I'm really glad you didn't and greatly appreciate you pursuing this matter through to completion". Rick replied simply "I guess that’s the difference between me being a fan and “just” being an employee!"
With many companies confidentiality is a major issue. Its written into contracts and you often have to sign separate agreements. Lets say that the there was another deal in the air and it was seen that a club official was speaking to the public. This could even mean defending Varney by saying "it wasnt about his wages " --------------think on that comment. It dosnt have to be about the "deal" it can be seen by people who had alot of money riding on the success or failure of the "deal" as a breach of confidentiality.
Or maybe the Board who want at least one of the owners to be kept secret had grown tired of the endless inquiries and digging on this form (and others) " who owns this club".
As i said before we may not get any confirmation or comment from RE--- he may now be in a position where he is being paid off and on "gardening leave" or he may be looking at a tribuneral for wrongful dismissal (if it is).
If present players (CP etc) are at any forms i would suggest they are NOT asked about any of this. It would be unfair and it has to be kept away from the playing staff (if possible) difficult if not impossible.
Firstly, this thread is not an obituary. The bloke is still about, and while his departure from CAFC may not be completely unfettered, his unique experience of the club from three distinct perspectives - fans/media/senior employee - will be of immense value. I think RE's postings on here are, forgive the pun, a red herring. I have found his comments generally pretty circumspect - mindful of the topic in question and the concerns behind it but also careful not to disadvantage the club. To give a balanced comment is no easy feat. It would be simple to sit on the fence but why bother then to comment at all. That is most definitely not RE's way. I imagine that Rick's forthright approach coupled with such an impressive and unarguable track record do not make him the most comfortable of colleagues at a time when a new boss - someone used to wielding a lot of authority in a major company - has challenges enough and does not need to keep finding a stone in his shoe. Rick's achievements speak for themselves. Just stand by for the next chapter.
Comments
1. Last season the aim was promotion and that was duly delivered. Once it became clear that promotion was achieved, what goal did the Board have for the following (this) season?
2. If the goal was to go straight through the division, what % increase in transfer and salary budget was assumed to be needed in order to achieve this remarkable goal? Was this budget increase actually provided?
3. Since from the outside it seems that this budget increase was not provided, is that because expected investment from individual backers was not forthcoming? Has an alternative investment now been found, or does the search continue?
4. Does Mr Jiminez believe that within the transfer and salary constraints the manager should be left to manage, specifically that the manager alone identifies whom he wants to sign? If he does not believe this but instead believes directors have the skills to identify players, can he cite examples of where this was successful, either here or at other clubs?
Why were you booted out of Newcastle and what did you learn from that experience , if anything
Why have the 3 amigos really left Charlton ?
For a comparison look at the prices for Ipswich - £34 put me off straight away. Those of us who post here may well be committed whatever the price but not everyone is or can be.
Without the three referred to in Seth's header there is no real advocate left at the club for this approach. Losing all three is bad news but if the board moves away from the business model those three have developed the club really will be facing disaster.
And while I used the word "customer' I regard regularly attending fans as stakeholders, who should expect a greater degree of dialogue with club owners than for example customers of Sainsbury's would expect. Do you agree?
So far , I have yet to receive an acknowledgement or response which is highly unusual for CP.
Hopefully, there is an explanation for this, but only time will tell.
I'll keep you posted as to the outcome of my enquiry.
I have never met Rick but I have corresponded with him on occasion via the Pink Oboe list and directly.
He always comes across as somebody in who's heart beats the heart of the club. Getting rid of him is a serious mistake if this is what has happened.
Living where I do, sometimes it has been difficult to get down to collect tickets, especially in the Premier League days. Each time I raised this on a forum Rick personally sorted it out for me.
As for the other things you have listed, I do not believe that any club in the country has been better served in building its fan base than we have been by the Airman.
Captain Black and the Mysterons, if you are reading this, and I am sure you are, you have just made a big mistake - huge!
Paranoia or genuine fear?
What I mean is that a football club is a part of and a symbol of a community. It gives people a sense of where they come from. That is extremely important in a big place like London. And that is why the move to Selhurst was doomed to failure. To those of us going to Charlton at the time, Croydon was an alien place that wasn't part of our daily life.
If Bangkok Dave was recruited in the Selhurst years I take it - and if I am wrong he will doubtless put me right - that he didnt have the same strong ties to the Charlton manor/tribe which at the time would have been Greenwich, Bexley and out towards Kent, and/or whose family (father/grandfather) were themselves Charlton. In which case that would explain why he sees no big problem in losing those at Charlton who have always deeply understood what our roots actually are, and how they can be developed to optimise attendances.
The comments about his disagreements with Murray are revealing. Murray was smart enough to realise that RE always argued from the perspective of what was best for CAFC and that , therefore, he had better listen to Rick's criticisms and take them on board.
The current lot would appear not to understand that and, unlike RE, may possibly have agendas other than the best long-term interests of CAFC.
Readily admit I don't know Rick - only ever spoke to him once - but as a long-standing supporter I do know the huge part he played in getting the club back to the Valley and what he has done ever since in building up our support. OK, of course, there were others involved but without Rick acting as the catalyst to get things going, the groundswell to get Charlton back to the Valley would never have built up in the way it did.
And who can doubt that having a real Charlton fan on the staff wasn't a good thing? Let me give you just one very small example that sticks in my mind. I've got all the end of season videos/DVDs going back a good few years and remember being disappointed when the club said it wouldn't produce one for 2007/08 and 08/09 - understandably maybe but still disappointing not to maintain the history of the club on record. It was Rick who drove through the eventual production of a DVD for those seasons aginst a host of problems. I dropped Rick an e-mail saying "thanks for pursuing this matter so doggedly. I suspect it would have been really easy to say sod it when you had all the production difficulties but I'm really glad you didn't and greatly appreciate you pursuing this matter through to completion". Rick replied simply "I guess that’s the difference between me being a fan and “just” being an employee!"
Says it all really.
Lets say that the there was another deal in the air and it was seen that a club official was speaking to the public. This could even mean defending Varney by saying "it wasnt about his wages " --------------think on that comment. It dosnt have to be about the "deal" it can be seen by people who had alot of money riding on the success or failure of the "deal" as a breach of confidentiality.
Or maybe the Board who want at least one of the owners to be kept secret had grown tired of the endless inquiries and digging
on this form (and others) " who owns this club".
As i said before we may not get any confirmation or comment from RE--- he may now be in a position where he is being paid off and on "gardening leave" or he may be looking at a tribuneral for wrongful dismissal (if it is).
If present players (CP etc) are at any forms i would suggest they are NOT asked about any of this. It would be unfair and it has to be kept away from the playing staff (if possible) difficult if not impossible.
I think RE's postings on here are, forgive the pun, a red herring. I have found his comments generally pretty circumspect - mindful of the topic in question and the concerns behind it but also careful not to disadvantage the club. To give a balanced comment is no easy feat. It would be simple to sit on the fence but why bother then to comment at all. That is most definitely not RE's way.
I imagine that Rick's forthright approach coupled with such an impressive and unarguable track record do not make him the most comfortable of colleagues at a time when a new boss - someone used to wielding a lot of authority in a major company - has challenges enough and does not need to keep finding a stone in his shoe.
Rick's achievements speak for themselves. Just stand by for the next chapter.