Seen a few where offside given but ball has never left defensive half. Is that right?
Also what we need is retrospective action against divers and they will stop doing it. While it costs nothing, players with no respect for the game will try it on and refs will make wrong calls.
If it goes backwards to a player, there is no way the player can be closer to the goal than the ball so not offside.
Unless we're saying a) that somebody ahead of play runs a few yards backwards to retrieve the ball or b) that an 'active' player (but not the intended receiver) is given offside straight away after a player passes it backwards to another teammate? Even then it would be the old 'phase 2' rule.
I think the offside rule is more difficult to explain that it is to understand.
Ask my missus, she gets in a terrible tangle trying to explain it to me, Lord bless her pretty little head.
This might help:
You're in a shoe shop, second in the queue for the till. Behind the shop assistant on the till is a pair of shoes which you have seen and which you must have.
The female shopper in front of you has seen them also and is eyeing them with desire. Both of you have forgotten your purses.
It would be totally rude to push in front of the first woman if you had no money to pay for the shoes.
The shop assistant remains at the till waiting.
Your friend is trying on another pair of shoes at the back of the shop and sees your dilemma.
She prepares to throw her purse to you.
If she does so, you can catch the purse, then walk round the other shopper and buy the shoes.
At a pinch she could throw the purse ahead of the other shopper and, *whilst it is in flight* you could nip around the other shopper, catch the purse and buy the shoes.
Always remembering that until the purse had *actually been thrown* it would be plain wrong to be forward of the other shopper.
I got to tell you, in 36 years of watching live football that was clearly the worst refereeing display that I have seen! The fact that both sets of fans booed Kettle off at half-time told its own story. Yes, it's easy to be subjective rather than objective, but ironically, the worst decision of all was the Oldham sending off! Second bookable offence!? - Laugh, I nearly went to Ethiopia! And it can't possibly be a coincidence that he has such an extreme record when it comes to dishing the odd card out. No, he certainly is one attention seeker (as displayed during his pre-match 'warm up' when he was wiggling his backside at the CAFC fans, lapping up the cat calls!).
On a brighter note, I am back on R&R after spending 4 months away and it was the perfect way to enjoy being at home for a couple of weeks. Although I am not sure that my boy was so overwhelmed by his night stop in Oldham!!? Such an inspirational 'backs against the wall' display and for those of you who were there, the atmosphere that you/we created was incredible. Onwards and upwards; Valley FR tomorrow prior to going away for the last two months of my 'trip'. C'mon you Addicks.
Saw the highlights last night and the decision making of the ref was ridiculous. Wagstaff slipped but clearly took the ball for the second yellow. As for Hollands, never a red in my opinion. Even the Oldham player who came through the back of Yann could have just been warned rather than yellowed again.
The refs since we have been in this league have been appalling. Consistently frustrating and happy to ruin the flow of a game.
Looking at the stats Mr Kettle has had makes it worse. Even the BBC commentator made a comment that when they see Mr Kettle is reffing a game they know they will be kept busy.
Everyone sees he is terrible but the FA. What a joke.
Really? My mate came through the ranks with that (then) youngster (Mike Oliver is it?) who has made some shocking decisions. Everyone dislikes him apparently.
Hmm, wonder if you're actually talking about Stuart Attwell, he of the infamous goal that never was. Oliver's another young one but one of the better ones I think, they all make mistakes.
I don't rate Kettle. However, watching the highlights I have to say Holland's tackle was a definite yellow & maybe a red. I have no complaint. Wagstaff was 2 definite yellows. I have no complaint. Mvoto (sp?), that was never a 2nd yellow card & he definitely shouldn't have been sent off. Ref just evened it up. On those 3 decisions, I think Oldham were more unlucky than us. I can't comment on the rest of his reffing, as I didn't go.
Do elaborate on how you think Wagstaff was worthy of 2 yellows? 'definite'. Even those from Oldham didn't think it was, I mean firstly look at the pitch and secondly look how he slipped and took the ball. It wasn't reckless, or intentional, dangerous or anything.. The ref just wanted to be centre of attention, and a game of football should rarely end with 8 men, let alone a game that was as eventless as this one.
Its nonsense to get a yellow for slipping - can't see how that can be argued. As for ex players being refs - not all players stay in the game and this would be a way to help those without mega bucks can have a new career. You don't need to put them in straight away but you could say 3 years appentiship then reffing until you are 50, 55 if you remain fit enough. Costs could be funded by FA. You can learn what you need to learn in that time and you will have that wealth of experience about the game that no traditional refs will have.
Those who say it has been tried - when has this seriously been tried?
Waggy's tackle looked reckless to me & you shouldn't be going in like that, if you're already on a yellow. He may well have slipped, but it wasn't an undoubted slip. I knew Kettle sends more players off, than the average ref, so I presume the players did as well. In which case, why are we flying in like that, giving him the opportunity to flash the red cards ? It was no surprise to me that there were players red carded, in fact I expected it. I'm not criticising Charlton for being committed & our last 2 refs have been awful, but I thought Hollands & Waggy have no real complaints. No way will Hollands be appealed, because we know we'd lose & if we could appeal Waggy's (we can't), I doubt we would appeal it for the same reason.
If you are judging this from the highlights, may I ask how you know Waggys first yellow credited a card, as on the CAFC Player highlights it doesn't show it.
Also it was an obvious slip, his body fell down as he lost his footing.. but hey, 9 men to win away from home is a very rare occurance.. Let's be glad it wasn't Cort or Morrison sent off, they both look solid as a brick wall.
I think everyone has said Waggy's 1st yellow was justified. I don't think it was an obvious enough slip. If it was Kettle wouldn't have shown a 2nd yellow. We all knew Kettle is poor, so we should have stayed on our feet & not given him the opportunity to flash the cards. However, we're committed so hey ho.
I don't think it was an obvious enough slip. If it was Kettle wouldn't have shown a 2nd yellow. We all knew Kettle is poor
I'm not so sure he wouldn't have, he was intent on handing out cards and disrupting the game. Let's just hope he's not in any of our to come games this season, referee's have a tough job but some make it tougher upon themselves..
No, wasn't there. Saw the reds on telly and they looked harsh but at the same time could see why he gave them. The Hollands one maybe a red but the two second yellows were the sort you rarely see given even as a first yellow. That said, it is a subjective thing and consistency between refs is an unrealistic expectation. It's usually both teams that have moans about the ref. nobody's ever happy and it's been like that my whole life. He didn't affect the result yesterday and actually Hollands and Wagstaff probably needed a rest anyway.
What this is all about is a need to express blame and vent anger. It's a psychological thing. Probably due to a dissatisfaction with our own lot or something. We can't blame the team because they won and among some groups it's considered taboo anyway.
It will never change and people will never be happy with refereeing whether it's done by ex players, robots or whatever. Maybe those that routinely moan should do the course and give reffing a go. I guarantee it will help you to see decisions more objectively and lower your stress levels on a Saturday. Most refs do a bloody good job but every now and again they make mistakes - so what!?
Kettle may be over officious but no harm done. Promotion won't be won or lost because of it.
Sorry but I disagree. Poor decisions can be the difference between staying up or getting relegated. That terrible decision in Pardews first game v Fulham where the lino gave them a free kick when it should have been our throw, robbed us of 2 points and a moral boosting victory. It may well have cost us our Premiership status. As a result we find ourself in the third division and nearly went out of business. Many people lost their jobs. We will never know, but a win in that game could have made a huge difference to the outcome that season and the very existence of our great club.
I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous. You're saying we went down two divisions because we should have got a throw in!?
Forget the preceding 34-odd games, Curbishley leaving, Dowie spending £16m on mediocre players, Pardew being, well Pardew, Les Reed not cutting it etc., etc.,
We didn't even lose that game because of that one decision. All we had to do was defend a bloody free-kick from a wide position!
No, wasn't there. Saw the reds on telly and they looked harsh but at the same time could see why he gave them. The Hollands one maybe a red but the two second yellows were the sort you rarely see given even as a first yellow. That said, it is a subjective thing and consistency between refs is an unrealistic expectation. It's usually both teams that have moans about the ref. nobody's ever happy and it's been like that my whole life. He didn't affect the result yesterday and actually Hollands and Wagstaff probably needed a rest anyway.
What this is all about is a need to express blame and vent anger. It's a psychological thing. Probably due to a dissatisfaction with our own lot or something. We can't blame the team because they won and among some groups it's considered taboo anyway.
It will never change and people will never be happy with refereeing whether it's done by ex players, robots or whatever. Maybe those that routinely moan should do the course and give reffing a go. I guarantee it will help you to see decisions more objectively and lower your stress levels on a Saturday. Most refs do a bloody good job but every now and again they make mistakes - so what!?
Kettle may be over officious but no harm done. Promotion won't be won or lost because of it.
Sorry but I disagree. Poor decisions can be the difference between staying up or getting relegated. That terrible decision in Pardews first game v Fulham where the lino gave them a free kick when it should have been our throw, robbed us of 2 points and a moral boosting victory. It may well have cost us our Premiership status. As a result we find ourself in the third division and nearly went out of business. Many people lost their jobs. We will never know, but a win in that game could have made a huge difference to the outcome that season and the very existence of our great club.
I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous. You're saying we went down two divisions because we should have got a throw in!?
Forget the preceding 34-odd games, Curbishley leaving, Dowie spending £16m on mediocre players, Pardew being, well Pardew, Les Reed not cutting it etc., etc.,
We didn't even lose that game because of that one decision. All we had to do was defend a bloody free-kick from a wide position!
So had we got the throw in, we would have still had to defend that free kick??????
I also believe our season would have turned with a win in that game. Whole different mindset if we had come away from there with three points.
Ashtray Are you on a subtle windup? I ask because your patronising comment that 'actually Hollands and Wagstaff needed a rest anyway demonstrates a distinct lack of knowledge about Wagstaff's (lack of) involvement on the pitch for much of the season as any reader of this board would know.
ps as for the 'offside' that OOah mentioned, Reid would have been offside as the ball doesn't need to be played forward see Law 11
Ashtray I respect your general stance, to try and stick up for a group which gets a disproportionate amount of unfair criticism. However I'm bothered by your argument that nothing should be done to help referees do an even better job, thus reducing the number of bad decisions which have consequences. Your argument seems to be, we all get some things wrong, live with it. Sorry, that argument won't wash at a professional level. Take airline pilots. Highly trained, specific personality and mindset, expected to make cool key decisions under extreme pressure. Yet all the time technology is being introduced to help them, to reduce the number of accidents caused by pilot error. And it works. The same approach is needed for professional football, and referees should welcome it. Hell , they already do it in rugby.
No, wasn't there. Saw the reds on telly and they looked harsh but at the same time could see why he gave them. The Hollands one maybe a red but the two second yellows were the sort you rarely see given even as a first yellow. That said, it is a subjective thing and consistency between refs is an unrealistic expectation. It's usually both teams that have moans about the ref. nobody's ever happy and it's been like that my whole life. He didn't affect the result yesterday and actually Hollands and Wagstaff probably needed a rest anyway.
What this is all about is a need to express blame and vent anger. It's a psychological thing. Probably due to a dissatisfaction with our own lot or something. We can't blame the team because they won and among some groups it's considered taboo anyway.
It will never change and people will never be happy with refereeing whether it's done by ex players, robots or whatever. Maybe those that routinely moan should do the course and give reffing a go. I guarantee it will help you to see decisions more objectively and lower your stress levels on a Saturday. Most refs do a bloody good job but every now and again they make mistakes - so what!?
Kettle may be over officious but no harm done. Promotion won't be won or lost because of it.
Sorry but I disagree. Poor decisions can be the difference between staying up or getting relegated. That terrible decision in Pardews first game v Fulham where the lino gave them a free kick when it should have been our throw, robbed us of 2 points and a moral boosting victory. It may well have cost us our Premiership status. As a result we find ourself in the third division and nearly went out of business. Many people lost their jobs. We will never know, but a win in that game could have made a huge difference to the outcome that season and the very existence of our great club.
I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous. You're saying we went down two divisions because we should have got a throw in!?
Forget the preceding 34-odd games, Curbishley leaving, Dowie spending £16m on mediocre players, Pardew being, well Pardew, Les Reed not cutting it etc., etc.,
We didn't even lose that game because of that one decision. All we had to do was defend a bloody free-kick from a wide position!
So had we got the throw in, we would have still had to defend that free kick??????
I also believe our season would have turned with a win in that game. Whole different mindset if we had come away from there with three points.
No, wasn't there. Saw the reds on telly and they looked harsh but at the same time could see why he gave them. The Hollands one maybe a red but the two second yellows were the sort you rarely see given even as a first yellow. That said, it is a subjective thing and consistency between refs is an unrealistic expectation. It's usually both teams that have moans about the ref. nobody's ever happy and it's been like that my whole life. He didn't affect the result yesterday and actually Hollands and Wagstaff probably needed a rest anyway.
What this is all about is a need to express blame and vent anger. It's a psychological thing. Probably due to a dissatisfaction with our own lot or something. We can't blame the team because they won and among some groups it's considered taboo anyway.
It will never change and people will never be happy with refereeing whether it's done by ex players, robots or whatever. Maybe those that routinely moan should do the course and give reffing a go. I guarantee it will help you to see decisions more objectively and lower your stress levels on a Saturday. Most refs do a bloody good job but every now and again they make mistakes - so what!?
Kettle may be over officious but no harm done. Promotion won't be won or lost because of it.
Sorry but I disagree. Poor decisions can be the difference between staying up or getting relegated. That terrible decision in Pardews first game v Fulham where the lino gave them a free kick when it should have been our throw, robbed us of 2 points and a moral boosting victory. It may well have cost us our Premiership status. As a result we find ourself in the third division and nearly went out of business. Many people lost their jobs. We will never know, but a win in that game could have made a huge difference to the outcome that season and the very existence of our great club.
I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous. You're saying we went down two divisions because we should have got a throw in!?
Forget the preceding 34-odd games, Curbishley leaving, Dowie spending £16m on mediocre players, Pardew being, well Pardew, Les Reed not cutting it etc., etc.,
We didn't even lose that game because of that one decision. All we had to do was defend a bloody free-kick from a wide position!
So had we got the throw in, we would have still had to defend that free kick??????
I also believe our season would have turned with a win in that game. Whole different mindset if we had come away from there with three points.
My point exactly Algarve. That equaliser was the last kick of the game. Had we been given the throw in, the ball most likely would have been booted to the other end of the pitch, the whistle blown, and three points secured. The two extra points at that stage of the season, the first game under the rein of a new manager, would have been a huge physcological boost to the club. Let's not forget that in the end we were only four points short of survival. But the broader point is that such decisions can change seasons and influence the destiny of clubs. Anyone that believes refereeing decisions have no effect on results are either a referee themselves, or are living in complete denial. Ashtray's response was therefore entirely predictable. Would England have won the World cup without a referee decision going in their favour?
If a referee does not influence the outcome of the game, what's the point of having him ? He has the most influence ! If you wanted to fix a game, who is the most obvious candidate to approach ?
Comments
Also what we need is retrospective action against divers and they will stop doing it. While it costs nothing, players with no respect for the game will try it on and refs will make wrong calls.
Unless we're saying a) that somebody ahead of play runs a few yards backwards to retrieve the ball or b) that an 'active' player (but not the intended receiver) is given offside straight away after a player passes it backwards to another teammate? Even then it would be the old 'phase 2' rule.
Ask my missus, she gets in a terrible tangle trying to explain it to me, Lord bless her pretty little head.
You're in a shoe shop, second in the queue for the till. Behind the shop assistant on the till is a pair of shoes which you have seen and which you must have.
The female shopper in front of you has seen them also and is eyeing them with desire. Both of you have forgotten your purses.
It would be totally rude to push in front of the first woman if you had no money to pay for the shoes.
The shop assistant remains at the till waiting.
Your friend is trying on another pair of shoes at the back of the shop and sees your dilemma.
She prepares to throw her purse to you.
If she does so, you can catch the purse, then walk round the other shopper and buy the shoes.
At a pinch she could throw the purse ahead of the other shopper and, *whilst it is in flight* you could nip around the other shopper, catch the purse and buy the shoes.
Always remembering that until the purse had *actually been thrown* it would be plain wrong to be forward of the other shopper.
On a brighter note, I am back on R&R after spending 4 months away and it was the perfect way to enjoy being at home for a couple of weeks. Although I am not sure that my boy was so overwhelmed by his night stop in Oldham!!? Such an inspirational 'backs against the wall' display and for those of you who were there, the atmosphere that you/we created was incredible. Onwards and upwards; Valley FR tomorrow prior to going away for the last two months of my 'trip'. C'mon you Addicks.
The refs since we have been in this league have been appalling. Consistently frustrating and happy to ruin the flow of a game.
Looking at the stats Mr Kettle has had makes it worse. Even the BBC commentator made a comment that when they see Mr Kettle is reffing a game they know they will be kept busy.
Everyone sees he is terrible but the FA. What a joke.
Wagstaff was 2 definite yellows. I have no complaint.
Mvoto (sp?), that was never a 2nd yellow card & he definitely shouldn't have been sent off. Ref just evened it up.
On those 3 decisions, I think Oldham were more unlucky than us.
I can't comment on the rest of his reffing, as I didn't go.
Those who say it has been tried - when has this seriously been tried?
I knew Kettle sends more players off, than the average ref, so I presume the players did as well.
In which case, why are we flying in like that, giving him the opportunity to flash the red cards ?
It was no surprise to me that there were players red carded, in fact I expected it.
I'm not criticising Charlton for being committed & our last 2 refs have been awful, but I thought Hollands & Waggy have no real complaints. No way will Hollands be appealed, because we know we'd lose & if we could appeal Waggy's (we can't), I doubt we would appeal it for the same reason.
Also it was an obvious slip, his body fell down as he lost his footing.. but hey, 9 men to win away from home is a very rare occurance.. Let's be glad it wasn't Cort or Morrison sent off, they both look solid as a brick wall.
I don't think it was an obvious enough slip. If it was Kettle wouldn't have shown a 2nd yellow.
We all knew Kettle is poor, so we should have stayed on our feet & not given him the opportunity to flash the cards.
However, we're committed so hey ho.
Forget the preceding 34-odd games, Curbishley leaving, Dowie spending £16m on mediocre players, Pardew being, well Pardew, Les Reed not cutting it etc., etc.,
We didn't even lose that game because of that one decision. All we had to do was defend a bloody free-kick from a wide position!
I also believe our season would have turned with a win in that game. Whole different mindset if we had come away from there with three points.
Are you on a subtle windup? I ask because your patronising comment that 'actually Hollands and Wagstaff needed a rest anyway demonstrates a distinct lack of knowledge about Wagstaff's (lack of) involvement on the pitch for much of the season as any reader of this board would know.
ps as for the 'offside' that OOah mentioned, Reid would have been offside as the ball doesn't need to be played forward see Law 11
I respect your general stance, to try and stick up for a group which gets a disproportionate amount of unfair criticism. However I'm bothered by your argument that nothing should be done to help referees do an even better job, thus reducing the number of bad decisions which have consequences. Your argument seems to be, we all get some things wrong, live with it. Sorry, that argument won't wash at a professional level. Take airline pilots. Highly trained, specific personality and mindset, expected to make cool key decisions under extreme pressure. Yet all the time technology is being introduced to help them, to reduce the number of accidents caused by pilot error. And it works. The same approach is needed for professional football, and referees should welcome it. Hell , they already do it in rugby.
Definite yellow, 50/50 whether it was red.
Would England have won the World cup without a referee decision going in their favour?
He has the most influence ! If you wanted to fix a game, who is the most obvious candidate to approach ?