Just wondering why people keep using Norway as an example to not be in the EU? People do realise they have some of the largest oil and gas reserves in the world? It really is remarkable how their economy is stronger than most other European countries
Just checking this is the Nigel Farage, who through wanting us to be no part of the EU, has claimed over £2m in 'expenses' from the EU ?
Like everything in politics, every man is only in it for himself.
Really not the case in my experience. There are plenty of selfless people of all political persuasions who put in hours every week supporting their local community and working for what they see as the common good. But of course there are exceptions and they are the ones who seek or attract publicity.
If you take the former Tory leader of Bexley Council (the only councillor I know who asked for and obtained a council credit card and who was later convicted for abusing a similar facility as an unelected deputy mayor to Boris) or for that matter the former Tory MP for Old Bexley and Sidcup (the original parliamentary expenses overclaimer), there's nobody who held them in greater contempt than other Bexley Tories.
And of course you could find Labour examples elsewhere, but it happened to be Tories who were at it in Bexley, which I know about.
I understand why people are cynical, but I find you can get beyond that when you work with them and tackle the issues they want tackled.
Even if it was true that "every man is only in it for himself" then it's not clear to me how you get beyond that. People blame political parties, but actually parties are the best insurance against this because they have a reputation to protect and the ability to impose internal sanctions.
I really don't know if Cameron has made the right decision, only time will tell. The failings of the EU were so obvious at the time i.e. the EU will stand together with the strong supporting the weak. OK, but when the weak cannot pay their way how long can the strong continue to bail them out. I feel that the criteria for joining the EU was not set high enough, therefore anyone could become a member, whether self sufficient or not. The next country wanting to enter the EU is Turkey. From good sources I have heard that they only outsource business with Turkish companies and are like a lot of others, corrupt. I'm not knocking the likes of Greece, but what is their source of income? Apart from tourism, cheese and olives I can't think of anything else.
Globalisation is ruining the world. One tiny country in Southern Europe sneezes and the whole world dies of pneumonia. Countries around the world need to be able to stand on their own feet without the support of wealthy neighbours. Countries with strong economies should be rewarded with a better standard of living, weak economies should have a poorer standard of living, giving it's people and it's government the incentive to try harder. This is what happened in China and India twenty odd years ago, they are now reaping the benefits. A simplistic view I know, but sometimes it pays to go back to basics.
UKIP is by far the biggest joke in politics, and Farage is a complete tosser. A couple of years ago a leading UKIP figure said to me ( in a private conversation ) that there were too many bloody foreigners here and the country was going to the dogs. So, he moved to France. ( he didn't see the irony ) His move was based on the fact house prices here were going to drop 50 - 70% as a result of our EEC membership. His house in France collapsed in value, and he has moved back to the UK. He continues to predict the demise of the UK economy never ever seeing that the sickness is worldwide. They aren't just anti Europe, most of them would be in the BNP if UKIP didn't exist. As I said, a real bunch of tossers ...............
UKIP is by far the biggest joke in politics, and Farage is a complete tosser. A couple of years ago a leading UKIP figure said to me ( in a private conversation ) that there were too many bloody foreigners here and the country was going to the dogs. So, he moved to France. ( he didn't see the irony ) His move was based on the fact house prices here were going to drop 50 - 70% as a result of our EEC membership. His house in France collapsed in value, and he has moved back to the UK. He continues to predict the demise of the UK economy never ever seeing that the sickness is worldwide. They aren't just anti Europe, most of them would be in the BNP if UKIP didn't exist. As I said, a real bunch of tossers ...............
I'm not disputing that the party has its share of tossers although, amongst the members I've met, there are many decent people who feel totally disenfranchised by the "BIg 3" parties and I would ask you who you suggest they should vote for?
Len - I speak from having had contact with certain people in this party. Where do you get off caling me lazy?? Don't know you, and you sure as hell don't know me. I can tell you now this party many years ago were smearing many politicians from labour and tory. No, it wasn't official, but I was at a dinner party when some twat ( exec member UKIP ) spouted on about foreigners,gays etc etc -. You want to discuss ? let me know and I will call you.
The official party line might be what you say, but that doesn't go on below the surface. Or are you that naive ???
I'm sure there are a few closet rascists and homophobes in all the major (and minor) political parties. We just don't tar them all with the same brush.
Len - I speak from having had contact with certain people in this party. Where do you get off caling me lazy?? Don't know you, and you sure as hell don't know me. I can tell you now this party many years ago were smearing many politicians from labour and tory. No, it wasn't official, but I was at a dinner party when some twat ( exec member UKIP ) spouted on about foreigners,gays etc etc -. You want to discuss ? let me know and I will call you.
The official party line might be what you say, but that doesn't go on below the surface. Or are you that naive ???
Like I said, you want to discuss?
I said the smear was lazy (and mischievous) not you.
I don't doubt what you say as there have been tossers involved with the party but I also note that you state the dinner was many years ago and efforts have been made to get rid of any irrational bigots out of the party as I mentioned previously and tried to illustrate.
Who else should those who feel disenfranchised vote for by the way?
UKIP are racist and have been infected by the far right.
Not my words - Dr Alan Sked, founder leader of UKIP. he also claims Farage told him "We will never win the nigger vote. The nig-nogs will never vote for us". Farage denies this vehemenently.
They do take action when someone is openly and blatently racists. For example Paul Wiffen chair of UKIP London and Parliamentary candidate and was suspended after a racist rant against gypsies, Muslims and black people but was reinstated after he apologised.
They have loads of ex NF and ex BNP members in senior positions. Two of its Euro MPs were members of the New Briitain Party which campaigned against non-white immigration and supported apartheid. Lots of its candidates at national elections have formerly stood for the BNP.
For those who accuse UKIP of being a racist party, they have non EU and black MEP's standing for UKIP today. This lady has a lot of connections with UKIP, are you saying she has joined a racist party when she comes from a non-european background?
I think you read into things too much and read stories that you class as true. Why just accuse UKIP of being racist when you have other mps from different parties who are being accused of racism. My examples
Ok Lib Dems don't have any mps that have been accused so are you saying Lib Dems are the only non-racist party in the UK?
My point is, there always going to be twats in every party. I don't really understand why you get this assumption Nigel Farage and UKIP are like BNP , why would this be the case, where is the evidence for it? Any party will do anything to bring the other parties down. You seen how labour are with the Tories and vice versa and other parties attack each other. This link someone posted on here about "Theres something about UKIP" this was written by a Labour MP who is in love with the EU, of course he is going to attack his own enemies, that is what politicans are like.
UKIP are racist and have been infected by the far right.
Not my words - Dr Alan Sked, founder leader of UKIP. he also claims Farage told him "We will never win the nigger vote. The nig-nogs will never vote for us". Farage denies this vehemenently.
They do take action when someone is openly and blatently racists. For example Paul Wiffen chair of UKIP London and Parliamentary candidate and was suspended after a racist rant against gypsies, Muslims and black people but was reinstated after he apologised.
They have loads of ex NF and ex BNP members in senior positions. Two of its Euro MPs were members of the New Briitain Party which campaigned against non-white immigration and supported apartheid. Lots of its candidates at national elections have formerly stood for the BNP.
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The above is of concern to any right thinking person.
I have met both Alan Sked and Nigel Farage and respect both of them. However there was, allegedly, personal antipathy between the two of them and AS left the party he founded in somewhat acrimonious circumstances and has briefed against it ever since. I would therefore take that alleged remark with a pinch of salt personally.
The progeny of the MEPs you mention is of concern. Are you referring to present or former MEPs? I think it unlikely racist attitudes are so prevalent now as, if they were, why would people such as Winston Mc Kenzie and Rusty Lee, to name two relatively well known candidates, align themselves with the party?
I think a parallel can be drawn with Charlton Athletic which has worked tirelessly to eliminate racism. Yet still a minority of morons sing what is referred to as the Kevin Lisbie song. Does that make Charlton Athletic and its fans as a whole racist?
UKIP, like all political parties, attracts its share of bad eggs. Politics is an egocentric profession and many people with egos think only of themselves and feathering their own nest. However I think UKIP tries to root its (racist) bad eggs out otherwise why would people from ethnic minorities stand as candidates for the party?
PS It is probably relevant to record that I am not presently a party member although I have been in the past. If I am 100% honest I did wonder whether the party was BNP lite not too long after joining (I was a member from day 1 pretty well) and left. However the party made the efforts to stamp out racism and a person I trusted and had a high regard for was on the National Executive so I rejoined. The reason I left a second time was simply my frustration at the criminal waste by the party hierarchy of the momentum provided by the "Kilroy" effect in the 2004 Euro elections elections and I've never got round to rejoining.
I post this to show that I've not reached my conclusions lightly regarding UKIP even if some (all) of you may consider me naive and misguided.
Len, I believe that you hold your views sincerely. I am also aware that you hold firm views on standards of public behaviour and have often been quite brave IMO, stating your views quite calmly even though they are not always well received. So I do have to ask, how on earth can you respect Farage? His sneering vacuous unpleasantness seems to go against everything you have stood for. I'm confused!
Len, I believe that you hold your views sincerely. I am also aware that you hold firm views on standards of public behaviour and have often been quite brave IMO, stating your views quite calmly even though they are not always well received. So I do have to ask, how on earth can you respect Farage? His sneering vacuous unpleasantness seems to go against everything you have stood for. I'm confused!
I don't particularly like Farage's style sometimes for the reasons you mention but I respect him because he can be a very good political orator and communicator and will robustly stand his ground and prevail against hostile interviewers. I work with a committed member of the Labour party and even he has said that Farage is interrupted more frequently on programmes like Question Time than the other guests.
He is also not afraid to go out on a limb when necessary. One example being exposing the "sleaze" of Barrosso (?spelling) in the European Parliament.
All that amounts to a form of courage or perhaps commitment is a better word which I can respect.
. This link someone posted on here about "Theres something about UKIP" this was written by a Labour MP who is in love with the EU, of course he is going to attack his own enemies, that is what politicans are like.
I fail to see how this makes the arguments/quotes expressed in the linked paper invalid - if criticism of politicians was only valid if it came from those with the same viewpoint then I don't think we would get very far. I don't agree that UKIP is BNP lite but in my opinion it is the little Englander party with attitudes drwan from the 1940s and 50s - and quite frankly arguments expressed on a football forum are not going to chnage my mind one way or another - there are other places for such arguments - and not Big Robs pub!
Apologies for earlier rant. If you were a member then you can probably work out who I am talking about. Also, I would not for one minute ever suggest that at a certain UKIP party function a certain UKIP party leader was caught with a certain married lady in his room in the early hours of the morning. His excuse was that they were discussing party issues. However, he begged the aggrieved husband to believe him and never speak of it again. This happened in 2004. The aggrieved husband was a close friend of mine at the time. Anyway, must go, gonna discuss the Mastereich treaty with the wife before going to work.
Apologies for earlier rant. If you were a member then you can probably work out who I am talking about. Also, I would not for one minute ever suggest that at a certain UKIP party function a certain UKIP party leader was caught with a certain married lady in his room in the early hours of the morning. His excuse was that they were discussing party issues. However, he begged the aggrieved husband to believe him and never speak of it again. This happened in 2004. The aggrieved husband was a close friend of mine at the time. Anyway, must go, gonna discuss the Mastereich treaty with the wife before going to work.
......" We can't expect to enjoy the benefits without any kind of compromise on the way that we do things. Yes, there's plenty about it that could be better, but I still strongly believe that we are better for it."......
Please tell me what these benefits are given the costs of being in it?
Access to a market of 350 million people without tariffs or barriers, something you free marketeers wanted at one time - which was why Heath took us into the EEC and Thatcher signed the Maaastrict treaty and why Major enthusiastically signed us up to the ERM. What happened was that having gained access to the EU British business found itself being out-competed by Europe and so the right decided too late to pull the drawbridge up.
If you look at the increase in cross-border business since the formation of the EU and how Europe has collectively strengthened in that time as an economic entity then it's an absolute no brainer.
Comments
Just wondering why people keep using Norway as an example to not be in the EU? People do realise they have some of the largest oil and gas reserves in the world? It really is remarkable how their economy is stronger than most other European countries
As well as being rude and odious politically - it appears that Nigel is a Nigel
http://www.upfront-live.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=155:nigel-farage-interview&catid=48:europe&directory=88
A simplistic view I know, but sometimes it pays to go back to basics.
I'm not disputing that the party has its share of tossers although, amongst the members I've met, there are many decent people who feel totally disenfranchised by the "BIg 3" parties and I would ask you who you suggest they should vote for?
However your phrase I've highlighted in bold is out of order and plain wrong. Racism is not permitted for UKIP Party members and that is enshrined in the Party Constitution http://www.ukip.org/content/manifestos-and-literature/1410-ukip-constitution I refer you to 2.3.
Anyone suspected of racism gets lobbed out under the various provisions of Membership section 4.
The Party is very hot on that sort of thing because of the lazy, mischievous smears banded about by people like you!
Len - I speak from having had contact with certain people in this party. Where do you get off caling me lazy?? Don't know you, and you sure as hell don't know me. I can tell you now this party many years ago were smearing many politicians from labour and tory. No, it wasn't official, but I was at a dinner party when some twat ( exec member UKIP ) spouted on about foreigners,gays etc etc -. You want to discuss ? let me know and I will call you.
The official party line might be what you say, but that doesn't go on below the surface. Or are you that naive ???
Like I said, you want to discuss?
Calm down dear.
I'm sure there are a few closet rascists and homophobes in all the major (and minor) political parties. We just don't tar them all with the same brush.
I said the smear was lazy (and mischievous) not you.
I don't doubt what you say as there have been tossers involved with the party but I also note that you state the dinner was many years ago and efforts have been made to get rid of any irrational bigots out of the party as I mentioned previously and tried to illustrate.
Who else should those who feel disenfranchised vote for by the way?
Totally agree Masciat - leopards do not change their spots http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/theres-something-about-ukip.pdf - the ones complaining about racism such as Sked were the ones who were kicked out btw.
Anyone who runs away from school to to watch Palarse is by definition suspect
UKIP are racist and have been infected by the far right.
Not my words - Dr Alan Sked, founder leader of UKIP. he also claims Farage told him "We will never win the nigger vote. The nig-nogs will never vote for us". Farage denies this vehemenently.
They do take action when someone is openly and blatently racists. For example Paul Wiffen chair of UKIP London and Parliamentary candidate and was suspended after a racist rant against gypsies, Muslims and black people but was reinstated after he apologised.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/england/8609891.stm
They have loads of ex NF and ex BNP members in senior positions. Two of its Euro MPs were members of the New Briitain Party which campaigned against non-white immigration and supported apartheid. Lots of its candidates at national elections have formerly stood for the BNP.
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I think you read into things too much and read stories that you class as true. Why just accuse UKIP of being racist when you have other mps from different parties who are being accused of racism. My examples
Labour - http://www.londonpatriot.org/2011/02/14/thurrock-labour-councillor-accused-of-racism/
Conservative - http://www.scotsman.com/news/tory_accused_of_racism_after_telling_fellow_scot_get_back_to_jockland_1_1521093
Ok Lib Dems don't have any mps that have been accused so are you saying Lib Dems are the only non-racist party in the UK?
My point is, there always going to be twats in every party. I don't
really understand why you get this assumption Nigel Farage and UKIP are like BNP , why would this be the case, where is the evidence for it? Any party will do anything to bring the other parties down. You seen how labour are with the Tories and vice versa and other parties attack each other. This link someone posted on here about "Theres something about UKIP" this was written by a Labour MP who is in love with the EU, of course he is going to attack his own enemies, that is what politicans are like.
Len, I believe that you hold your views sincerely. I am also aware that you hold firm views on standards of public behaviour and have often been quite brave IMO, stating your views quite calmly even though they are not always well received. So I do have to ask, how on earth can you respect Farage? His sneering vacuous unpleasantness seems to go against everything you have stood for. I'm confused!
Also, I would not for one minute ever suggest that at a certain UKIP party function a certain UKIP party leader was caught with a certain married lady in his room in the early hours of the morning. His excuse was that they were discussing party issues. However, he begged the aggrieved husband to believe him and never speak of it again. This happened in 2004. The aggrieved husband was a close friend of mine at the time. Anyway, must go, gonna discuss the Mastereich treaty with the wife before going to work.
Access to a market of 350 million people without tariffs or barriers, something you free marketeers wanted at one time - which was why Heath took us into the EEC and Thatcher signed the Maaastrict treaty and why Major enthusiastically signed us up to the ERM. What happened was that having gained access to the EU British business found itself being out-competed by Europe and so the right decided too late to pull the drawbridge up.
If you look at the increase in cross-border business since the formation of the EU and how Europe has collectively strengthened in that time as an economic entity then it's an absolute no brainer.