The couple of times I've met Francis he's always seemed a really nice bloke quite shy but always happy to have a chat. I think because of him being like that I've always wanted to give him another chance and always willed him to win the supporters over. After last night though I'm afraid I can't defend him.
He has possibley the worst half I have ever seen a player have, not just for Charlton. He got skinned 3/4 times in a row, must have given it straight to a Preston player 3 or 4 times, his headers put us straight back in danger and his tackles were terrible. I can see that maybe he's a confidence player but I honestly think it's better for him and for us if he left as soon as possible.
As an aside I didn't actually hear anyone booing last night, quite a few groans when he gave the ball away for the umpteenth time but no boos.
I do tell them to shut up and they tell me to shut up which doesn't really help much - but I think they need to know that the majority of the crowd are against them. If somebody can come up with an idea then cyberspace has its uses.
I do tell them to shut up and they tell me to shut up which doesn't really help much - but I think they need to know that the majority of the crowd are against them. If somebody can come up with an idea then cyberspace has its uses.
My comments weren't directed at you personally mate. If everyone who disapproved of the booing collectively told them to turn it in I'm sure it would stop that day.
I don't know who they are or where they came from. But we didnt have people like them in the early 90s, of that I am sure.
I reckon Kim Grant or Carl Leaburn might disagree.
Sure, its no doubt a bigger issue now. I suppose partly because it isn't just something that happens at the game and that is that, but it gets repeated, debated and widened post-game with the internet. But more pertinently i think it is a football / society issue of the way people, their demands and expectations have changed.
We no doubt do have some boo boys, that can't be denied. But i might be a bit rose-tinted in my view but i honestly don't think ours or worse or more magnified than the vast majority of other clubs.
I do tell them to shut up and they tell me to shut up which doesn't really help much - but I think they need to know that the majority of the crowd are against them. If somebody can come up with an idea then cyberspace has its uses.
My comments weren't directed at you personally mate. If everyone who disapproved of the booing collectively told them to turn it in I'm sure it would stop that day.
Well, that's right, but that's what Muttley is looking for. Some way to let them know that the rest of us think they are *****. That's how we gradually got rid of racist chanting. Letting people who are just too thick to get it, know that it isnt what Charlton fans do.
I also reckon Rodney that you might be surprised. Some of them might be on here. Not the regulars, and some may not be up to writing anything. But once or twice I've read things that made me wonder. And, don't be surprised to find that some of them may not be young either.
The problem with now is that we have gone through probably the worst 7 seasons in living memory. Nobody is happy with that but a reasonable intelligent mature person undersatnds that in adversity the club needs our support. An ignorant stupid person - and society has its fair share of those - can only express themselves in a negative way wth no real incite as to the damage they could be causing. If we got promoted this season they might develop a positive mindset again and be amongst the most vocal cheerers - they are in a word simpletons. By the definition of the word, they are not going to undersatnd much about football other than you have to put the ball in teh back of the net. Brighton are doing fantastically playing football from the back and building attacks- real quality but imagine how these cave men would respond to a couple of square passes if they were Brighton fans?
I was thinking of Grant and Leaburn, but I don't remember either of them being booed even during a game, although for sure Leaburn got a lot of criticism. Personally I reserved my stick for Pardew, because i thought he didn't put in the extra 10% like Nelson, Bumstead or Sweaty, but I didnt boo him because I realised that Curbs didnt have much money, and if he thought Pardew can do a job, I have to go along with that.
If we are no worse than other clubs, how do you explain Eddie Youds reported comments above?
Amazing that we are top of the league and people are still trying to dig the supporters out. It's never the players fault is it.
Its even more amazing that we are top of the league and some people boo a player before a game started.
This is not a veiled dig. This is an upfront dig. The people that did that are ****s. No matter how badly he played. They are probably the same ****s who did the same to Mooney. And who booed JonJo Shelvey. I don't know who they are or where they came from. But we didnt have people like them in the early 90s, of that I am sure. They can **** off.
I was thinking of Grant and Leaburn, but I don't remember either of them being booed even during a game, although for sure Leaburn got a lot of criticism. Personally I reserved my stick for Pardew, because i thought he didn't put in the extra 10% like Nelson, Bumstead or Sweaty, but I didnt boo him because I realised that Curbs didnt have much money, and if he thought Pardew can do a job, I have to go along with that.
If we are no worse than other clubs, how do you explain Eddie Youds reported comments above?
Then you couldn't have been there Prague when Kim Grant missed a chance and the Covered End collectively chanted Off, Off, Off.
Can't explain Youds comments, respect his view. I'm in no way defending those that do this sort of stuff, i just don't see this as a Charlton problem but something that is probably much wider spread than we realise. My brother occassionally gets a freebie to Upton Park, he'll tell you that the abuse their players get is 10 times worse than what ours do, and that was before last season. Part of being a footballer is having to have a thick skin sadly, and it is not a new requirement.
I remember Leaburn being booed when his name was read out - but for all that he became a folk hero and the "Leeeeeeburn" chant was heard more often than booing, although perhaps that was often meant ironically.
My brother occassionally gets a freebie to Upton Park, he'll tell you that the abuse their players get is 10 times worse than what ours do, and that was before last season.
A stream of relegations, a revolving door to the manager's office etc suggests that supporter impatience and the creation of a negative atmosphere does not contribute to the long term success of a club.
A stream of relegations, a revolving door to the manager's office etc suggests that supporter impatience and the creation of a negative atmosphere does not contribute to the long term success of a club.
Evidently some people do not have the wit to understand that.
Oh right, I forgot about that incident. I wasnt there, but I heard about it. But even that had a sort of humour about it, dont you think?
I am sure you are right about Upton Park. But then they were amongst the last to stop the monkey chants too, were they not?
I know it goes on, always has, and always will. But I'm also sure that the less we have it, the better the effect on our players. So isn't that what we are supposed to do, create an atmosphere where our players play better?
Was gonna say - we've always had this element of fans. Will never forget the Kim Grant incident - and it was towards the end of the game - we won 5-1 (I THINK) so must have been about 3 goals up at the time!!! Remember Curbs coming onto the pitch at the end instructing the players not to applaud us.
I really *do* (and have always thought) we have a tad more tools than many other clubs. It does us NO favours. Couple with that expectation, and the way footballers wages are etc etc, you expect it more, BUT with us it is always a scapegoat, akin to bullying. I think Stu has it right that the only thing we can do is drown 'em out. Of course most on here prolly aren't involved and the ones that are may never see this forum.
As an aside, didn't hear any boos before the game, not to say it didn't happen.
I know it goes on, always has, and always will. But I'm also sure that the less we have it, the better the effect on our players. So isn't that what we are supposed to do, create an atmosphere where our players play better?
That would normally be a definition of the word "Supporter".
Or in the year 2011, does it now mean something different, I wonder?
The thing is - none of us do our jobs well when we are subjected to close, critical scrutiny by others. I've worked in one or two places where mistakes were always picked up and highlighted (and I'm sure others have to). Those were not places with happy atmospheres, consequently staff morale was low and absenteeism and staff turnover was high. On the other hand I've worked in places where the attitude has been more laid back and suppportative/encouraging and morale has generally been better. Why should this be any different in football?
Oh right, I forgot about that incident. I wasnt there, but I heard about it. But even that had a sort of humour about it, dont you think?
No, I was there and it was awful, really awful. He'd had a terrible game and he missed an absolute sitter at a vital point in the game, and the crowd just started chanting OFF OFF OFF. It had venom and it was really unpleasant.
The key thing, though, is that the next game he played the crowd cheered him like he was a hero in response to the awful treatment he'd received.
Crowds can really affect players, and whilst I think we've been much much better this season - when we lost the goal to Wednesday the crowd raised their game again - booing any of our players can NEVER be productive, can it?
But then we spend most of our time singing about other clubs so what do I know.
Well, now I've asked Choice to ask Steve Brown what he thinks about it all on the Sunday show....who better to answer, especially as he was there last night.
Guys, whilst I see Francis as a bad player etc what is it with all this anti booing.
Booing a poor performance has been around for hundreds of years, jesters and stage acts have been booed, hauled off stage by a hook and/or plastered with rotten fruit and veg due to putting on a poor peformance.
Today's footballers are the modern day jesters and entertainers and if they put in a bad performance or are seen not to be trying we as the paying audience are entitled to "give em stick"
Football is expensive to attend nowadays both on an individual match basis or a season ticket and despite the "prawn sandwich" brigade we must assume the average fan is a good old working class supporter who after doing a hard days work wants to go to football to let off a bit of steam.
We live in a world at the moment especially in the UK where our every move is watched, we cant do this we cant do that etc, etc, so do we really want to extend the "nanny state" in our football grounds?
I used to stand on the East Terrace as a kid and can still remember the banter, the piss taking and the booing as I leant against the crash barrier, I think because we all sit in close proximity now and under cover it seems louder and more intense.
Booing bad entertainment is a tradition and I see no reason why it has to be exempt from football.
Today's footballers are the modern day jesters and entertainers and if they put in a bad performance or are seen not to be trying we as the paying audience are entitled to "give em stick"
There's something in that, but with the case of Leaburn, Grant etc the support was there when they played well. Kim Grant was legenadry status for his two goals in the snow at Millwall and Carlo is a folk hero for toiling hard in a weak team and being Charlton through and through. There's something though a bit more disturbing at the booing at Francis and others in the modern game, with the result that when players like Francis play well then those performances are regarded as being the exception to the norm.
My brother occassionally gets a freebie to Upton Park, he'll tell you that the abuse their players get is 10 times worse than what ours do, and that was before last season.
A stream of relegations, a revolving door to the manager's office etc suggests that supporter impatience and the creation of a negative atmosphere does not contribute to the long term success of a club.
Comments
The couple of times I've met Francis he's always seemed a really nice bloke quite shy but always happy to have a chat. I think because of him being like that I've always wanted to give him another chance and always willed him to win the supporters over. After last night though I'm afraid I can't defend him.
He has possibley the worst half I have ever seen a player have, not just for Charlton. He got skinned 3/4 times in a row, must have given it straight to a Preston player 3 or 4 times, his headers put us straight back in danger and his tackles were terrible. I can see that maybe he's a confidence player but I honestly think it's better for him and for us if he left as soon as possible.
As an aside I didn't actually hear anyone booing last night, quite a few groans when he gave the ball away for the umpteenth time but no boos.
Idiots
Then you couldn't have been there Prague when Kim Grant missed a chance and the Covered End collectively chanted Off, Off, Off.
Can't explain Youds comments, respect his view. I'm in no way defending those that do this sort of stuff, i just don't see this as a Charlton problem but something that is probably much wider spread than we realise. My brother occassionally gets a freebie to Upton Park, he'll tell you that the abuse their players get is 10 times worse than what ours do, and that was before last season. Part of being a footballer is having to have a thick skin sadly, and it is not a new requirement.
I remember Leaburn being booed when his name was read out - but for all that he became a folk hero and the "Leeeeeeburn" chant was heard more often than booing, although perhaps that was often meant ironically.
My brother occassionally gets a freebie to Upton Park, he'll tell you that the abuse their players get is 10 times worse than what ours do, and that was before last season.
A stream of relegations, a revolving door to the manager's office etc suggests that supporter impatience and the creation of a negative atmosphere does not contribute to the long term success of a club.
I really *do* (and have always thought) we have a tad more tools than many other clubs. It does us NO favours. Couple with that expectation, and the way footballers wages are etc etc, you expect it more, BUT with us it is always a scapegoat, akin to bullying. I think Stu has it right that the only thing we can do is drown 'em out. Of course most on here prolly aren't involved and the ones that are may never see this forum.
As an aside, didn't hear any boos before the game, not to say it didn't happen.
Totally counter-productive and ignorant.
Or in the year 2011, does it now mean something different, I wonder?
No, I was there and it was awful, really awful. He'd had a terrible game and he missed an absolute sitter at a vital point in the game, and the crowd just started chanting OFF OFF OFF. It had venom and it was really unpleasant.
The key thing, though, is that the next game he played the crowd cheered him like he was a hero in response to the awful treatment he'd received.
Crowds can really affect players, and whilst I think we've been much much better this season - when we lost the goal to Wednesday the crowd raised their game again - booing any of our players can NEVER be productive, can it?
But then we spend most of our time singing about other clubs so what do I know.
been going on before grant/ leaburn.
it wasn't a victory 'V' that aizlewood aimed at our own fans after scoring.
Guys, whilst I see Francis as a bad player etc what is it with all this anti booing.
Booing a poor performance has been around for hundreds of years, jesters and stage acts have been booed, hauled off stage by a hook and/or plastered with rotten fruit and veg due to putting on a poor peformance.
Today's footballers are the modern day jesters and entertainers and if they put in a bad performance or are seen not to be trying we as the paying audience are entitled to "give em stick"
Football is expensive to attend nowadays both on an individual match basis or a season ticket and despite the "prawn sandwich" brigade we must assume the average fan is a good old working class supporter who after doing a hard days work wants to go to football to let off a bit of steam.
We live in a world at the moment especially in the UK where our every move is watched, we cant do this we cant do that etc, etc, so do we really want to extend the "nanny state" in our football grounds?
I used to stand on the East Terrace as a kid and can still remember the banter, the piss taking and the booing as I leant against the crash barrier, I think because we all sit in close proximity now and under cover it seems louder and more intense.
Booing bad entertainment is a tradition and I see no reason why it has to be exempt from football.
Today's footballers are the modern day jesters and entertainers and if they put in a bad performance or are seen not to be trying we as the paying audience are entitled to "give em stick"
There's something in that, but with the case of Leaburn, Grant etc the support was there when they played well. Kim Grant was legenadry status for his two goals in the snow at Millwall and Carlo is a folk hero for toiling hard in a weak team and being Charlton through and through. There's something though a bit more disturbing at the booing at Francis and others in the modern game, with the result that when players like Francis play well then those performances are regarded as being the exception to the norm.