I stand to be corrected but I think (and hope) that nobody has yet vilified Chris Powell.
The point as I understand it is that some people (I include myself) feel that Parky was never given a chance by some fans from day 1 of his sole tenure. Whether that was because of his association with Pardew or something else who knows but when we were bad he got unmerciful stick from some when we did well there was a grudging silence. The bottom line though was that the players, unless it was really blatant like Llera at Colchester for instance,were largely exempt from serious criticism as Parky got it all.
Now however when we are losing under Chris Powell the players (rightly in my view) are attracting some of the blame just as they should have done under Parky and it is that inconsistency of attitude that is being questioned by the "Parky Lovers" for want of some other descriptive term.
The Club Parky took over was financially on its knees and morale was at rock-bottom. He worked miracles to at least stabilise a club in freefall on the playing side and give it a decent shot at promotion and should be gratefully remembered for that. He wasn't infallible his misuse of Jonjo, unless he acted under orders from above, being the obvious example.
However Parky has gone, albeit harshly and unfairly, and we have a much loved club legend at the helm.
Let's get behind him and get out of this league just as soon as we can.
i think Parky, like Waggot were effectively there during a time which was always going to be painful (think John Major or Ed Milliband)- i think the likes of Varney could see that and got well out of it - now we have got new owners, time to wipe the slate clean and it's understandable that the new owners wanted they're own man in. Don't think anybody is really calling for his head and i think people justy have to accept that Parky is gone and whilst the football is still pants, we have to hope Chris is the right man - at the moment i have serious doubts but hope he will get it right.
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]Nice spin Joe. By that argument CP can only work with the players he has at his disposal....the one's PP brought in.
And round and round the argument goes.
Rodney,
the fundamental difference is that Pardew's players were on both longterm contracts (4 years usually) and inflated wages whereas Parky's are on contracts of 2 years max ,more usually 12 months, and realistic wages for the level we find ourselves.
That's why we had to pay Moo2 and Christensen, as examples, to twiddle their thumbs for as long as we did until, eventually, we found some other mugs to take them off our hands at a great loss to ourselves.
Why does Parky get absolved of any blame in our Championship slump? And why couldn't he have kept us up? We were not even in the bottom three when he took over. Forest were well adrift of us and yet appointed Davies and finished well ahead of us. Our squad wasn't that bad that we couldn't have stayed up. Instead we went on the most disasterous run I can ever remember.
Beats me as well. There were some decent players in that team, which they proved on the last day of the season once the shackles were removed, but by then it was too late.
Off the top of my head and in no particular order players like:
Nick Weaver
Semedo
Kelly Youga
Nicky Bailey
Zheng Zhi
Mark Hudson
Jonjo Shelvey
Darren Ambrose
Darren Ward
Scott Wagstaff
Lloyd Sam
Therry Racon
Robbie Elliot
Deon Burton
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]Nice spin Joe. By that argument CP can only work with the players he has at his disposal....the one's PP brought in.
And round and round the argument goes.
They were as much the boards players as they were PP's.. Finance dictated the type of players we got and the fact that this club has turned over far too many players in the last seven years is a truer reflection of why we are where we are now than anything to do with managers, because history has proved the changes in management made no difference...
Too much importance is placed on managers. Good players make managers look good...
My personal opinion of Powell is he is trying to get us to play attractive football, unfortunately we don't have the players to do it and he is being a little naive and inexperienced in continuing to try and play that way.
This team at the start of the season scored alot of late winners, it showed that this team wouldn't give up and had fight in them and I hope Powell can get that spirit back, as we are still in with a very good shout of the play off's if we all pull together on and off the field.
Parkinson knew all this when took got the job. He knew the players at his disposal knew the wage budget knew we probably didnt have a pot to piss in and knew what he was dealing with.
He had better players last season than we have now. Shelvey, deemed good enough to play in the premiership and Europe for Liverpool but not able to fit into our team. Bailey also. He couldnt get us promoted with them so I cannot see how so many are convinced that he would do with arguably lesser players this year.
This debate will go round and round. Im glad he is gone and that wont change. Just mere speculation about what he would or could have done. I personally didnt feel inspired by him during his entire tenure and failed to see his teams being really inspired by him. After suffering the humilation of Millwall x 2, Northwhich, Shrewsbury and the balls up in the play offs I could see that it was unlikely (imo) he would take us forward as a club.
I dont see the club as any worse off under CP. Whether we are any better off remains to be seen but I wont judge him on 8 games....even though 8 poor results got his predecessor the job in the first place.
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]I stand to be corrected but I think (and hope) that nobody has yet vilified Chris Powell.
The point as I understand it is that some people (I include myself) feel that Parky was never given a chance by some fans from day 1 of his sole tenure. Whether that was because of his association with Pardew or something else who knows but when we were bad he got unmerciful stick from some when we did well there was a grudging silence. The bottom line though was that the players, unless it was really blatant like Llera at Colchester for instance,were largely exempt from serious criticism as Parky got it all.
Now however when we are losing under Chris Powell the players (rightly in my view) are attracting some of the blame just as they should have done under Parky and it is that inconsistency of attitude that is being questioned by the "Parky Lovers" for want of some other descriptive term.
The Club Parky took over was financially on its knees and morale was at rock-bottom. He worked miracles to at least stabilise a club in freefall on the playing side and give it a decent shot at promotion and should be gratefully remembered for that. He wasn't infallible his misuse of Jonjo, unless he acted under orders from above, being the obvious example.
However Parky has gone, albeit harshly and unfairly, and we have a much loved club legend at the helm.
Let's get behind him and get out of this league just as soon as we can.
Len, I hate to disagree with you but I have never heard any concerted crowd abuse of Parky. Booing of the team following a poor performance yes, but not directly at Parky. Of course you aways get the odd group of idiots but I've never heard thousands in the north stand hurling abuse at him. He has admitedly had his fair share on here but no more so than my old mate Lisbie or your old mate Kish! In the Swindon game they voted with their feet rather than resorting to verbal abuse. Or perhaps I didn't hear it ???
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]I stand to be corrected but I think (and hope) that nobody has yet vilified Chris Powell.
The point as I understand it is that some people (I include myself) feel that Parky was never given a chance by some fans from day 1 of his sole tenure. Whether that was because of his association with Pardew or something else who knows but when we were bad he got unmerciful stick from some when we did well there was a grudging silence. The bottom line though was that the players, unless it was really blatant like Llera at Colchester for instance,were largely exempt from serious criticism as Parky got it all.
Now however when we are losing under Chris Powell the players (rightly in my view) are attracting some of the blame just as they should have done under Parky and it is that inconsistency of attitude that is being questioned by the "Parky Lovers" for want of some other descriptive term.
The Club Parky took over was financially on its knees and morale was at rock-bottom. He worked miracles to at least stabilise a club in freefall on the playing side and give it a decent shot at promotion and should be gratefully remembered for that. He wasn't infallible his misuse of Jonjo, unless he acted under orders from above, being the obvious example.
However Parky has gone, albeit harshly and unfairly, and we have a much loved club legend at the helm.
Let's get behind him and get out of this league just as soon as we can.
Len, I hate to disagree with you but I have never heard any concerted crowd abuse of Parky. Booing of the team following a poor performance yes, but not directly at Parky. Of course you aways get the odd group of idiots but I've never heard thousands in the north stand hurling abuse at him. He has admitedly had his fair share on here but no more so than my old mate Lisbie or your old mate Kish! In the Swindon game they voted with their feet rather than resorting to verbal abuse. Or perhaps I didn't hear it ???
"Parky, Parky you're a c u next tuesday" was chanted on occasion in the Covered End during the run up to his sacking although yes I'm really referring more to the attitudes of posters on here week on week.
Queensland, can i correct you on replying to my post. I did not say" the majority of Charlton fans", i said" a section of Charlton fans,"very different. As Len said there was a chant of Parky, Parky you're a CU. Which is totally out of order to a hardworking and honorable man and the attitude of posters on here stank.
[cite]Posted By: dickplumb[/cite]Queensland, can i correct you on replying to my post. I did not say" the majority of Charlton fans", i said" a section of Charlton fans,"very different. As Len said there was a chant of Parky, Parky you're a CU. Which is totally out of order to a hardworking and honorable man and the attitude of posters on here stank.
Apologies. I was replying jointly to yourself and Ormy as you seem to hold similar views. I have frequented this board on a daily basis since it's inception. I have read much critism of Parky for his tactics, team selection etc etc, which you'd expect to see on any football forum. Very occasionally the odd idiot has posted something personal or abusive towards Parky, but the overwhelming feeling from the majority of posters has been that he was a very decent man who was doing an honest job to the best of his ability under difficult circumstances. To start labeling people as being "Parky haters" as Ormy did just because you don't happen to think he is a very good manager, I find offensive. I don't hate the man, I've never even met him, I doubt whether Large or any of his critics hate him either. I've never booed him or any of the players and have spent many thousands of pounds travelling many thousands of miles to support his team. I didn't agree with his appointment but was 100% behind him until his stubborn refusal to play Shelvey, a decision I believe cost us promotion and has further piled on the misery for us fans.
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]And if the Parky apologists want to say 'he was left a poor squad by Pardew' why is it not then fair that us Powell apologists can't say that he in turn has been left a poor squad by Parky. Whatever the why's and therefore's we are where we are, we have a rookie manager learning all the time and we need to give him time to turn this around. Next season is no doubt the time to judge CP, not now.
It is fair, you can say that. I'd agree, it's a squad put together by Parky that can challenge for the play-offs but has some weaknesses. It isn't good enough to play attractive passing football either.
Parky needed time and now Powell does. I agree we should judge him next season.
[cite]Posted By: queensland_addick[/cite]Large wrote
Why does Parky get absolved of any blame in our Championship slump? And why couldn't he have kept us up? We were not even in the bottom three when he took over. Forest were well adrift of us and yet appointed Davies and finished well ahead of us. Our squad wasn't that bad that we couldn't have stayed up. Instead we went on the most disasterous run I can ever remember.
Beats me as well. There were some decent players in that team, which they proved on the last day of the season once the shackles were removed, but by then it was too late.
Off the top of my head and in no particular order players like:
Nick Weaver
Semedo
Kelly Youga
Nicky Bailey
Zheng Zhi
Mark Hudson
Jonjo Shelvey
Darren Ambrose
Darren Ward
Scott Wagstaff
Lloyd Sam
Therry Racon
Robbie Elliot
Deon Burton
Of course he gets some of the blame. As said the squad was lacking quality and unbalanced.
Look at the players you've listed.
Weaver, Semedo, Racon, Youga and Elliot - questionable they were Championship players, all in League 1 now, despite 2 more years experience
Zheng (and Semedo) - injured for a lot of that season
Ward and Burton - so good signings by Parky then? Burton was a good footballer but no goalscorer, something all our managers have struggled to find.
Wagstaff - not ready at the time and Pardew had ruined his confidence
Shelvey, Sam, Ambrose - young and/or inconsistent.
First look that list looks good but it's really not that impressive, there's a lot of big weaknesses in that group of players. If Parky had the money to improve a few areas we'd have probably turned those many draws into a few wins and got that bit closer.
We clearly didn't have a goalscoring striker, enough reliable defenders or even one solid box to box Championship midfielder (Bailey didn't even control games in this league).
Weaver, Semedo, Racon, Youga and Elliot - questionable they were Championship players, all in League 1 now, despite 2 more years experience
Zheng (and Semedo) - injured for a lot of that season
Ward and Burton - so good signings by Parky then? Burton was a good footballer but no goalscorer, something all our managers have struggled to find.
Wagstaff - not ready at the time and Pardew had ruined his confidence
Shelvey, Sam, Ambrose - young and/or inconsistent.
First look that list looks good but it's really not that impressive, there's a lot of big weaknesses in that group of players. If Parky had the money to improve a few areas we'd have probably turned those many draws into a few wins and got that bit closer.
We clearly didn't have a goalscoring striker, enough reliable defenders or even one solid box to box Championship midfielder (Bailey didn't even control games in this league).
It's something we could debate until the cows come home. I could contend that some of those players such as Racon were better suited to championship football or that they are all two years older now. Of course it's a matter of opinion but I believe we were not bad enough to finish rock bottom. Norwich needed points to stay up in the final game, but we had blown them away by half time!
With Parkinson there was no hope, just an inexorable decline. After Swindon there was no way back, we just would have got more of the same, or worse.
With Chris Powell there is hope.
He is inexperienced and there will be mistakes, but I'm prepared to stick with him. Assuming he gets financial support from the board in the close season, if he fails to get us promoted in 2012 then questions can be asked.
Some players are simply not good enough, whoever the manager is. Sure, we were 5th when Parky went, but does anyone seriously believe we still would have been 5th at the end of the season?
The pain and frustration is intense right now, but we need to move on.
People forget that Parky's team were on a bad decline. At Brighton we took an early lead but then went into our negative shell and despite them going down to ten men for 3/4 of the game we just about held on for a point and offered nothing going forward.
A few days later at Colchester, same again, ten men for most of the game but Colchester still took the lead twice and we just about salvaged a point with a very late Benson equaliser. The Swindon home game was a complete disaster.
It would have been extremely hard for Parky to turn it around because he had lost the crowd and some might say the players as well. Our real chance of promotion disappeared in the Brighton and Cochester games due to negative tactics, confidence would have been shattered after the televised Swindon game and it is highly unlikely that Parky would have recovered to get 14 points out of the next 15.
We were in decline but we were holding on, then Powell turned up and seemed to turn it around, whereas now without Jackson and the other injuries we are just devoid of anything resembling a successful football team, the game I saw against Notts County it was so clear where the problems lie....
Dark days in deed, as long as we stay up we can regroup hopefully spend some money, and some proper money for this division and bring in a decent spine, we have a great striker in BWP although dodgy from an injury front, same with anyinsah, the problem we see is we need a solid center back and we NEED more than anything an attacking midfiel influence... continue like this and we will be no where near the playoffs next year, and if we dont arrest the slide we could be looking at a relegation battle, also the crowds look like they are on the slide.....
At this moment in time appointing CP looks to have been the wrong decision. However that doesn't automatically mean that sacking Parky was the wrong decision. After that Swindon defeat, confidence was so low and the crowd were so demoralised that it would have been extremely difficult for him to turn it around. Would he have got better results since then than CP has managed ? Yes, he probably would have, but imo the end result would be the same under both of them ie third division football again next year. So what have we gained by making the change? Nothing at the moment. But we do now have a manager that will hopefully be given time and the support of the majority of Charlton fans (perhaps!!) which is something Parky never had. More importantly we have a manager chosen by the new owners, who they will support with funds (hopefully) in the close season to start rebuilding from the bottom up. What we are are seeing atm are the deficiencies in the squad that was constructed by Parky, being highlighted by CP's desire to play better football. The players most villified by the fans (Francis, Mcoxo, Doc) were all Parky signings and it is hard to think of a single standout Parky signing in this current squad (perhaps Daily).
It's tough atm, really, really tough and incredibly depressing, but we have to remain as one and get behind CP regardless of what you thought of Parky.
It was inevitable that the new owners were going to bring in there own manager, but yes, I think we would definatly be better off wth Parkinson + BWP. I predict that we would have finished the league season at least 6/7th. Alot of people would be calling hes head, but the grass is not always greener. Hopefully Powell will sort it out for next season or we are doomed.
We were quite clearly better off with Parkinson. Complete no brainer. He wasn't the messiah some thought Powell would be, however with this squad minus our recent signings he got us / kept us in the playoff places. This is the worst run of form I have ever seen at Charlton. So, yes. End of.
Comments
The point as I understand it is that some people (I include myself) feel that Parky was never given a chance by some fans from day 1 of his sole tenure. Whether that was because of his association with Pardew or something else who knows but when we were bad he got unmerciful stick from some when we did well there was a grudging silence. The bottom line though was that the players, unless it was really blatant like Llera at Colchester for instance,were largely exempt from serious criticism as Parky got it all.
Now however when we are losing under Chris Powell the players (rightly in my view) are attracting some of the blame just as they should have done under Parky and it is that inconsistency of attitude that is being questioned by the "Parky Lovers" for want of some other descriptive term.
The Club Parky took over was financially on its knees and morale was at rock-bottom. He worked miracles to at least stabilise a club in freefall on the playing side and give it a decent shot at promotion and should be gratefully remembered for that. He wasn't infallible his misuse of Jonjo, unless he acted under orders from above, being the obvious example.
However Parky has gone, albeit harshly and unfairly, and we have a much loved club legend at the helm.
Let's get behind him and get out of this league just as soon as we can.
And round and round the argument goes.
Rodney,
the fundamental difference is that Pardew's players were on both longterm contracts (4 years usually) and inflated wages whereas Parky's are on contracts of 2 years max ,more usually 12 months, and realistic wages for the level we find ourselves.
That's why we had to pay Moo2 and Christensen, as examples, to twiddle their thumbs for as long as we did until, eventually, we found some other mugs to take them off our hands at a great loss to ourselves.
Not spin from Joe at all imo but fact.
Why does Parky get absolved of any blame in our Championship slump? And why couldn't he have kept us up? We were not even in the bottom three when he took over. Forest were well adrift of us and yet appointed Davies and finished well ahead of us. Our squad wasn't that bad that we couldn't have stayed up. Instead we went on the most disasterous run I can ever remember.
Beats me as well. There were some decent players in that team, which they proved on the last day of the season once the shackles were removed, but by then it was too late.
Off the top of my head and in no particular order players like:
Nick Weaver
Semedo
Kelly Youga
Nicky Bailey
Zheng Zhi
Mark Hudson
Jonjo Shelvey
Darren Ambrose
Darren Ward
Scott Wagstaff
Lloyd Sam
Therry Racon
Robbie Elliot
Deon Burton
They were as much the boards players as they were PP's.. Finance dictated the type of players we got and the fact that this club has turned over far too many players in the last seven years is a truer reflection of why we are where we are now than anything to do with managers, because history has proved the changes in management made no difference...
Too much importance is placed on managers. Good players make managers look good...
This team at the start of the season scored alot of late winners, it showed that this team wouldn't give up and had fight in them and I hope Powell can get that spirit back, as we are still in with a very good shout of the play off's if we all pull together on and off the field.
Parkinson knew all this when took got the job. He knew the players at his disposal knew the wage budget knew we probably didnt have a pot to piss in and knew what he was dealing with.
He had better players last season than we have now. Shelvey, deemed good enough to play in the premiership and Europe for Liverpool but not able to fit into our team. Bailey also. He couldnt get us promoted with them so I cannot see how so many are convinced that he would do with arguably lesser players this year.
This debate will go round and round. Im glad he is gone and that wont change. Just mere speculation about what he would or could have done. I personally didnt feel inspired by him during his entire tenure and failed to see his teams being really inspired by him. After suffering the humilation of Millwall x 2, Northwhich, Shrewsbury and the balls up in the play offs I could see that it was unlikely (imo) he would take us forward as a club.
I dont see the club as any worse off under CP. Whether we are any better off remains to be seen but I wont judge him on 8 games....even though 8 poor results got his predecessor the job in the first place.
Len, I hate to disagree with you but I have never heard any concerted crowd abuse of Parky. Booing of the team following a poor performance yes, but not directly at Parky. Of course you aways get the odd group of idiots but I've never heard thousands in the north stand hurling abuse at him. He has admitedly had his fair share on here but no more so than my old mate Lisbie or your old mate Kish! In the Swindon game they voted with their feet rather than resorting to verbal abuse. Or perhaps I didn't hear it ???
"Parky, Parky you're a c u next tuesday" was chanted on occasion in the Covered End during the run up to his sacking although yes I'm really referring more to the attitudes of posters on here week on week.
Apologies. I was replying jointly to yourself and Ormy as you seem to hold similar views. I have frequented this board on a daily basis since it's inception. I have read much critism of Parky for his tactics, team selection etc etc, which you'd expect to see on any football forum. Very occasionally the odd idiot has posted something personal or abusive towards Parky, but the overwhelming feeling from the majority of posters has been that he was a very decent man who was doing an honest job to the best of his ability under difficult circumstances. To start labeling people as being "Parky haters" as Ormy did just because you don't happen to think he is a very good manager, I find offensive. I don't hate the man, I've never even met him, I doubt whether Large or any of his critics hate him either. I've never booed him or any of the players and have spent many thousands of pounds travelling many thousands of miles to support his team. I didn't agree with his appointment but was 100% behind him until his stubborn refusal to play Shelvey, a decision I believe cost us promotion and has further piled on the misery for us fans.
Parky needed time and now Powell does. I agree we should judge him next season.
Of course he gets some of the blame. As said the squad was lacking quality and unbalanced.
Look at the players you've listed.
Weaver, Semedo, Racon, Youga and Elliot - questionable they were Championship players, all in League 1 now, despite 2 more years experience
Zheng (and Semedo) - injured for a lot of that season
Ward and Burton - so good signings by Parky then? Burton was a good footballer but no goalscorer, something all our managers have struggled to find.
Wagstaff - not ready at the time and Pardew had ruined his confidence
Shelvey, Sam, Ambrose - young and/or inconsistent.
First look that list looks good but it's really not that impressive, there's a lot of big weaknesses in that group of players. If Parky had the money to improve a few areas we'd have probably turned those many draws into a few wins and got that bit closer.
We clearly didn't have a goalscoring striker, enough reliable defenders or even one solid box to box Championship midfielder (Bailey didn't even control games in this league).
It's something we could debate until the cows come home. I could contend that some of those players such as Racon were better suited to championship football or that they are all two years older now. Of course it's a matter of opinion but I believe we were not bad enough to finish rock bottom. Norwich needed points to stay up in the final game, but we had blown them away by half time!
With Chris Powell there is hope.
He is inexperienced and there will be mistakes, but I'm prepared to stick with him. Assuming he gets financial support from the board in the close season, if he fails to get us promoted in 2012 then questions can be asked.
Some players are simply not good enough, whoever the manager is. Sure, we were 5th when Parky went, but does anyone seriously believe we still would have been 5th at the end of the season?
The pain and frustration is intense right now, but we need to move on.
A few days later at Colchester, same again, ten men for most of the game but Colchester still took the lead twice and we just about salvaged a point with a very late Benson equaliser. The Swindon home game was a complete disaster.
It would have been extremely hard for Parky to turn it around because he had lost the crowd and some might say the players as well. Our real chance of promotion disappeared in the Brighton and Cochester games due to negative tactics, confidence would have been shattered after the televised Swindon game and it is highly unlikely that Parky would have recovered to get 14 points out of the next 15.
Dark days in deed, as long as we stay up we can regroup hopefully spend some money, and some proper money for this division and bring in a decent spine, we have a great striker in BWP although dodgy from an injury front, same with anyinsah, the problem we see is we need a solid center back and we NEED more than anything an attacking midfiel influence... continue like this and we will be no where near the playoffs next year, and if we dont arrest the slide we could be looking at a relegation battle, also the crowds look like they are on the slide.....
But that is that and its in the past, as long as we dont get relegated than we can see what Powelly does next year...
Looking backthough sacking parkey looks to have been a very poor decision...
It's tough atm, really, really tough and incredibly depressing, but we have to remain as one and get behind CP regardless of what you thought of Parky.
As long as we stay in League one then I am happy to see what powell produces next year....
I think I am just falling out of love with modern day football....