Target fill the ground doesn't have a great ring about. Target 30,000 is well fairly unambitious. Target 25,000 is well achievable once in a while. On the other hand Target 40,000 speaks to me about the future development of the ground. That still does it for me.
I can't quote from the previous page, which is a feature missing from this forum which most have but lets clear something up.
No one has more part-time plastic fans than millwall.
Remember complaining about the FA cup final allocation because Man Utd had more tickets than you? Despite the fact you were allocated twice as many tickets as your average attendance and Man Utd season ticket holders were guaranteed a ticket? Remember Wigan in the LDV trophy, 40k there yet only 8k going to the new den? Recent play-off finals etc? During each of these occasions houses have had millwall flags waving out their windows, yet you've got the worst attendance out of the South London league clubs, and by quite a distance. For the record there was a lot of tension with the JCLs in the stand during our glory years.
You're views are from a by gone era in which fans supported their local side, or which the side their family supported. You and myself both fall in to this category but unfortunately the appeal of premiership football caused by the global commercialisation of the game has made it tougher. If you don't adapted you'll get left behind. There's a lot of money to be made out of the plastic fans from Kent, money which can strengthen the club and line the pockets of the owners, sadly football is as much as a business as it is a sport these days.
[cite]Posted By: bingaddick[/cite]Target fill the ground doesn't have a great ring about. Target 30,000 is well fairly unambitious. Target 25,000 is well achievable once in a while. On the other hand Target 40,000 speaks to me about the future development of the ground. That still does it for me.
Get rid of the number, call it operation see you later gills.
Personally i think it should be target 25,000 or something within the capacity of our own ground. Target 40,000 has much wider implications like extending the ground and taking on more huge debt. This may be an objective at some stage but isn't now. So a rename is essential to me.
I think the problem that any club will have in setting prices in order to maximise revenue is the dramatic differences in what people are prepared to pay for the exact same product. Clearly there are hardcore fans who would in a heartbeat, pay thousands for a season ticket whilst there are other fans who will only pay £5 for a match ticket. Unfortunately it is always going to be the former who step up to the plate and organise things like Target 40K, and hats of to them of course, but are they the people best able to guage the demand for tickets from people who sit on the opposite side of the demand spectrum?
I'm not sure of a better way because as I said it's clear that only the fully committed are ever going to get themselves involved in the first place.
[cite]Posted By: HarryHutchens[/cite]I think the problem that any club will have in setting prices in order to maximise revenue is the dramatic differences in what people are prepared to pay for the exact same product. Clearly there are hardcore fans who would in a heartbeat, pay thousands for a season ticket whilst there are other fans who will only pay £5 for a match ticket. Unfortunately it is always going to be the former who step up to the plate and organise things like Target 40K, and hats of to them of course, but are they the people best able to guage the demand for tickets from people who sit on the opposite side of the demand spectrum?
I'm not sure of a better way because as I said it's clear that only the fully committed are ever going to get themselves involved in the first place.
That would be true if the suggested prices were set only on those committed individuals personal views.
As it happens they are not. There is a lot of research and studying of empirical information (data collected over many previous seasons) as well as projection models (if we sell x at this price or y at a higher/lower price what would the income be).
Of course a casual fan isn't likely to be part of such a group but those on the committee may well know people who are casual and/or lapsed fans plus the T40K can measure take up of various offer such as last Saturday or the £10 ticket for season ticket holders. From this the committee has a slightly more informed view of what might or might not work.
Everyone on the committee knows that the one sure way of getting more people into the ground is to have a winning team playing attractive football. We can't directly influence that although in the long term extra income should translate in a better team.
My personal view is that while those in T40k all make a valid contribution (other than Ben Hayes obviously) it would be good to add new, younger and more diverse voices to the debates. It can't be a totally open forum as some of the financial matters discussed have to remain confidential but more and different people could, as you suggest, add different perspectives. Already Craig Parrett, the VIP rep has attended and must have halved the average age so it's on the right track. But as I said that is my personal view and one that may not be shared by others.
Thanks Henry it's good to know that the T40K is using more than just its own judgement to advise on ticket prices. Of course you have to try and go according to the mean, and my own data sample is simply myself, but I do feel that I would've spent more on Charlton this season (and last) had matchday ticket prices been lower.
I suggested on another thread that a 'ten game voucher' might work for people like me who can't justify a season ticket but would still like to make a commitment to the club at the start of the season. The idea would be that each voucher could be exchanged for a matchday ticket as and when the supporter wanted to come along. The price of each game could be set at somewhere in between the season ticket price and the matchday ticket price.
[cite]Posted By: HarryHutchens[/cite]Thanks Henry it's good to know that the T40K is using more than just its own judgement to advise on ticket prices. Of course you have to try and go according to the mean, and my own data sample is simply myself, but I do feel that I would've spent more on Charlton this season (and last) had matchday ticket prices been lower.
I suggested on another thread that a 'ten game voucher' might work for people like me who can't justify a season ticket but would still like to make a commitment to the club at the start of the season. The idea would be that each voucher could be exchanged for a matchday ticket as and when the supporter wanted to come along. The price of each game could be set at somewhere in between the season ticket price and the matchday ticket price.
And that is an idea that has been discussed at the committee, and in some detail, before.
It may well suit you but it also has to suit the Club.
Would a 10 game voucher eat into our existing ST group and so reduce income?
Would the vouchers only be used for the more attractive games, again not being additional income to the Club but a net loss as occasional visitors were more likely to come to those games anyway.
How easy would it be to administer? How far in advance would you have to redeem a seat?
Would another tier of tickets muddy the waters when promoting the offer of already reduced STs?
Not dismissing it out of hand but there are negatives to such ideas which have to be weighed up against the potential positives.
Thanks again Henry. Yes, I'm sure it would eat into the existing ST group, but I think that at least the same number of extra sales would be made in 10 game vouchers, with the club winning on the higher price per game, plus more money at the start of the season. Only my opinion of course, but probably the best way to prove this would be to offer it on a limited basis firstly.
I think that the notion of 'attractive games' is less of an issue in League One. In terms of 'important' games - well there are never going to be that many of those in a season - not to the less committed supporter anyway. If the team got off to a flier then the ten game voucher might be used up by Christmas so the supporter might then feel inclined to either buy another voucher if available, or buy on a match by match basis.
The clubs matchday revenue isn't as we all know, limited to ticket sales but there's also beer, food, beer, programmes, and more beer etc, so a lower ticket revenue may not necessarily mean lower matchday revenue. I assume the club has a value for 'average spend per customer per match'.
Clearly there's a value to just getting bums on seats that can't be quantified in (immediate) monetary terms, so just how much of a hit in revenue would the club feel like suffering if it meant increasing the attendance and contributing towards the renewal of the hardcore support and longer term revenue? (which it seems prepared to do for games like vs. Exeter).
The other side of the 'erosion of ST support' coin is that Ten game vouchers might be a stepping stone for newer supporters towards a season ticket the following season.
Clearly there's a value to just getting bums on seats that can't be quantified in (immediate) monetary terms, so just how much of a hit in revenue would the club feel like suffering if it meant increasing the attendance and contributing towards the renewal of the hardcore support and longer term revenue? (which it seems prepared to do for games like vs. Exeter).
There's the rub. Exeter the Club made more than would we have expected at full prices but that is unlikely to happen if we keep repeating the offer every week.
You then undermine the value of the ST and devalue the product you are trying to sell ie full price match tickets if you keep offering them at £5
[cite]Posted By: HarryHutchens[/cite]
The clubs matchday revenue isn't as we all know, limited to ticket sales but there's also beer, food, beer, programmes, and more beer etc, so a lower ticket revenue may not necessarily mean lower matchday revenue. I assume the club has a value for 'average spend per customer per match'.
It does and it is surprisingly low as there is little profit on programmes or food/drink. Can't remember the exact figure but not much over £1.
I know from previous threads/discussions here and elsewhere that the club and T40K look at these things very closely.
Here are a few ideas. Red Card holders who spend money in the club shop earn 5% off everything they spend and that 5% can be converted into money off tickets for games or off future season or half season tickets.
Red Card holders who buy one off tickets can earn a discount off an annual or part annual season ticket (subject to a maximum discount). It could even be carried over to next year. Say somebody had been ten times last season. That would earn them a voucher which can be redeemed against next years season ticket? That way the discount is controlled and used to capture new ST holders, rather than Harry's idea of a 10 ticket deal where the discount is used at the point of the original sale without leading to any tangible and controllable benefit for the club.
How about all season ticket holders are allowed to take 1 person for free at cup games? That way nobody would lose out or feel cheated by buying a season ticket, you could possibly share the cup game ticket cost with your mate and the ground would be a lot fuller than it would normally be for a cup game. and of course, your mate might get hooked.
Comments
No one has more part-time plastic fans than millwall.
Remember complaining about the FA cup final allocation because Man Utd had more tickets than you? Despite the fact you were allocated twice as many tickets as your average attendance and Man Utd season ticket holders were guaranteed a ticket? Remember Wigan in the LDV trophy, 40k there yet only 8k going to the new den? Recent play-off finals etc? During each of these occasions houses have had millwall flags waving out their windows, yet you've got the worst attendance out of the South London league clubs, and by quite a distance. For the record there was a lot of tension with the JCLs in the stand during our glory years.
You're views are from a by gone era in which fans supported their local side, or which the side their family supported. You and myself both fall in to this category but unfortunately the appeal of premiership football caused by the global commercialisation of the game has made it tougher. If you don't adapted you'll get left behind. There's a lot of money to be made out of the plastic fans from Kent, money which can strengthen the club and line the pockets of the owners, sadly football is as much as a business as it is a sport these days.
or Target X
You can. Just takes a little bit of effort.
See!
Come and join The Big Society!
Not sure. I think Maximising Fanbase Committee is better
I like this one!
How about
Charlton Additional Fans Committee
I'm not sure of a better way because as I said it's clear that only the fully committed are ever going to get themselves involved in the first place.
That would be true if the suggested prices were set only on those committed individuals personal views.
As it happens they are not. There is a lot of research and studying of empirical information (data collected over many previous seasons) as well as projection models (if we sell x at this price or y at a higher/lower price what would the income be).
Of course a casual fan isn't likely to be part of such a group but those on the committee may well know people who are casual and/or lapsed fans plus the T40K can measure take up of various offer such as last Saturday or the £10 ticket for season ticket holders. From this the committee has a slightly more informed view of what might or might not work.
Everyone on the committee knows that the one sure way of getting more people into the ground is to have a winning team playing attractive football. We can't directly influence that although in the long term extra income should translate in a better team.
My personal view is that while those in T40k all make a valid contribution (other than Ben Hayes obviously) it would be good to add new, younger and more diverse voices to the debates. It can't be a totally open forum as some of the financial matters discussed have to remain confidential but more and different people could, as you suggest, add different perspectives. Already Craig Parrett, the VIP rep has attended and must have halved the average age so it's on the right track. But as I said that is my personal view and one that may not be shared by others.
I suggested on another thread that a 'ten game voucher' might work for people like me who can't justify a season ticket but would still like to make a commitment to the club at the start of the season. The idea would be that each voucher could be exchanged for a matchday ticket as and when the supporter wanted to come along. The price of each game could be set at somewhere in between the season ticket price and the matchday ticket price.
And that is an idea that has been discussed at the committee, and in some detail, before.
It may well suit you but it also has to suit the Club.
Would a 10 game voucher eat into our existing ST group and so reduce income?
Would the vouchers only be used for the more attractive games, again not being additional income to the Club but a net loss as occasional visitors were more likely to come to those games anyway.
How easy would it be to administer? How far in advance would you have to redeem a seat?
Would another tier of tickets muddy the waters when promoting the offer of already reduced STs?
Not dismissing it out of hand but there are negatives to such ideas which have to be weighed up against the potential positives.
I think that the notion of 'attractive games' is less of an issue in League One. In terms of 'important' games - well there are never going to be that many of those in a season - not to the less committed supporter anyway. If the team got off to a flier then the ten game voucher might be used up by Christmas so the supporter might then feel inclined to either buy another voucher if available, or buy on a match by match basis.
The clubs matchday revenue isn't as we all know, limited to ticket sales but there's also beer, food, beer, programmes, and more beer etc, so a lower ticket revenue may not necessarily mean lower matchday revenue. I assume the club has a value for 'average spend per customer per match'.
Clearly there's a value to just getting bums on seats that can't be quantified in (immediate) monetary terms, so just how much of a hit in revenue would the club feel like suffering if it meant increasing the attendance and contributing towards the renewal of the hardcore support and longer term revenue? (which it seems prepared to do for games like vs. Exeter).
The other side of the 'erosion of ST support' coin is that Ten game vouchers might be a stepping stone for newer supporters towards a season ticket the following season.
There's the rub. Exeter the Club made more than would we have expected at full prices but that is unlikely to happen if we keep repeating the offer every week.
You then undermine the value of the ST and devalue the product you are trying to sell ie full price match tickets if you keep offering them at £5
It does and it is surprisingly low as there is little profit on programmes or food/drink. Can't remember the exact figure but not much over £1.
I know from previous threads/discussions here and elsewhere that the club and T40K look at these things very closely.
Here are a few ideas. Red Card holders who spend money in the club shop earn 5% off everything they spend and that 5% can be converted into money off tickets for games or off future season or half season tickets.
Red Card holders who buy one off tickets can earn a discount off an annual or part annual season ticket (subject to a maximum discount). It could even be carried over to next year. Say somebody had been ten times last season. That would earn them a voucher which can be redeemed against next years season ticket? That way the discount is controlled and used to capture new ST holders, rather than Harry's idea of a 10 ticket deal where the discount is used at the point of the original sale without leading to any tangible and controllable benefit for the club.
Any thoughts Henry?
I use my Barclay card and get 0% on all season ticket purchases, and was contemplating getting a season ticket for next year.
So if you give away a 10 quid ticket you still to accoint for 6 quid. Cup tickets are normally cheap anyway.
Easy to make loads of free offers and discounts but have to be very cafeful you are not just giving away free money and not cutting into income.
The balancing act between increasinf attendance and maximising current income is a difficult one.