[cite]Posted By: Sparrows Lane Lion[/cite]I can't help but think, based on the way you infiltrated the schools in Kent in the 90's and had people going with no Charlton history or connection, that Target 40,000 would be made up of 20,000 Charlton and 20,000 "football" fans coming to simply watch football rather then the former 20,000 who have a connection and passion.
SLL, does it matter whether they started as Charlton fans? Does it matter if not all of them stayed when the going got tough? Where are Millwall fans created, out of the ooze in the bottom of Surrey Quays, or do you just throw a net over anyone who travels along the Old Kent Road and then inject them with some kind of Spanner serum? Did all of those who followed the Lions when you were in top flight keep coming or did they drift away?
How do you get a connection and passion?
I was a Chelski fan as a kid, seduced by the glamour of Osgood, Cooke and Bonetti, and the violence of Chopper and McCready. I was taken to see Charlton by my dad and eventually the bond that we all have with our clubs took a hold and that was that.
After I started going regularly, some of my mates or kids of my Dads mates came with us. One lad was a Gooner, another had no allegiance. Both just came for the crack but within a year or so, they were committed fans. They have brought their mates and so on.
As I understand it, the initiatives that Charlton started and the targets that they continue to work towards are an extension of the things that happened to me and the people we brought along. Not all of those people who came and watched, became committed fans, crowds are significantly lower now than in the Premier League. On the other hand the last time we were in tier 3, the average was around 7,000 apart from the promotion year which was a little higher.
Do we have to insult fans from other clubs on this site? I don't suppose SLL likes it being said that he comes out of Ooze from Surrey Quays or injected with Spanner serum.
I think SLL asks a very pertinent question. I think the answer is that in (good old language) Div 1 we enticed many new supporters who gradually got into the habit of going. If you stay there then these new supporters gradually become more ardent. I have a friend who became a season ticket holder in 1998/99, closely followed by his parents. He gave up while we were in Div 2 whilst his parents stuck it out until this season came around. I believe that had we even just done OK in Div 2 that they would all still be going. I also think that the longer we are unsuccessful then the harder it will be to get them back.
I think to find out a club's real support, you have to put them in the league we're in now. So the answer to how much 'real support' we have is to look at our current attendences which although fall behind Leeds and Norwich are superior to what I believe several current Premiership clubs would get including Wigan, Blackpool, Bolton, Blackburn, Stoke and Fulham.
[cite]Posted By: jimmymelrose[/cite]Do we have to insult fans from other clubs on this site? I don't suppose SLL likes it being said that he comes out of Ooze from Surrey Quays or injected with Spanner serum.
Lighten up mate, firstly it wasn't an insult, it was a light hearted comment to make a point. I could have just as easily written
"where are Charlton fans created, out of the ooze in the bottom of Thames Barrier, or do we just throw a net over anyone who travels along the Rochester Way and then inject them with some kind of Addicks Alixir?" I can't imagine anyone on here would have taken that as an insult.
Secondly it wasn't aimed at SLL personally
Thirdly it was intended to be a reposte to what I thought was a somewhat aggressively postured post which started in a measured fashion and then went into what a bit of anti Charlton bashing all bound up in a real supporters versus plastics agenda when it got to this bit:-
[cite]Posted By: Sparrows Lane Lion[/cite]I can't help but think, based on the way you infiltrated the schools in Kent in the 90's and had people going with no Charlton history or connection,
I am all in favour of other club fans coming on here and giving their perspective but if they are going to make a provocative statement like that, they are bound to get a reaction light-hearted or otherwise.
[cite]Posted By: nth london addick[/cite]Henners if I wanted to bring 18 players and 3 coaching staff to aid controlling them would that be possible and how would I go about approaching it.
Dal my brothers club have brought 2 coach loads each year since jonjo started playing, at least 5 of those boys have since joined Charlton in a playing capacity. I'm quite sure Charlton even help with the coach travel to get them there.
Do we have to insult other fans who come on here ? no i dont think its in the contract but yes we do and should------------why not ? we insult each other .
[cite]Posted By: uncle[/cite]They should target my area and its schools for new supporters, there is still a lot of interest there what with the Jonjo connection and apart from doing kids for a quid the likes of West Ham dont target schools and push promotions on them. They just think most will end up supporting them,it may surprise a few people that you can get to Charlton as quick as West Ham.
Quicker for me with the new road, is it the A12?.. All the way to the tunnel and that's only the 2nd traffic light I hit after leaving my house....
Where do you live Joe? you must mean the A13 thats hardly got any traffic lights but the A12 is full of them.
Thanks Uncle, yes the A13.. I really am useless with the A roads...
I live in Loughton ...
Getting people to turn out for the first time to support the club is only part of the job. Getting them to attend regulary until the point that we have brainwashed them enough to join our "cult" is another thing. Hooking a fish is the easy part, reeling it in is something else. Plenty have slipped the net in the last 3 years. Whilst having discussions about getting newbies to attend the valley is good, think we're probably all in agreement that the most successful way to achieve this is by the team itself being successful on the pitch. Our hardcore fan base has certainly increased since the mid-nineties and this is largely due to the fact of playing premier league football during this time. I've heard people sneer at the way we raped and piliged Kent to build up our support. So what? Realistically, thats where our target area should be. What alternative does the man of kent have? Gilli......Gill.......sorry, can't bring myself to say that name.
I think the target 40k name may be a bit misleading but now after reading this i'm more clued up with what they are trying to achieve, it's all good to me. Whilst down in the lower leagues, attendance money is a huge part of the clubs income so we should encourage any attempt to improve that.
Blimey. This is two threads now where people have leapt to my defence after other people have supposedly "insulted" me. Thanks for your concern, but don't worry I don't take it too personally! It just highlights the hypocritical nature of some on here....
Bing - a well reasoned and valid response. Cheers. The point I was trying to make, & this comes from my experience of limited success in comparison with yourselves, is that when we've had an influx of fans, (& by influx we're talking a few dozen/hundred!!) for some of our bigger games/successful periods, it's been quite annoying for the regulars to be next to "fans" who haven't got the same passion/connection/culture/attitude. We've scored and whilst the regulars are falling over, jumping shouting etc you spot the new fans standing & clapping instead. Not singing. Not joining in etc.
It can cause a bit of friction between the existing support and the influx of non-Millwall support.
I was wondering whether that would pose a problem at Charlton and whether many of the existing fans, like yourselves who have sat through several years of shit & despair, would be a little frustrated and annoyed if in 5 years time when you're maybe challenging in the Championship play-offs that all of a sudden there's 25k fans, 9k of which haven't shown their faces for the previous 5+ years.
Give it 15 years and you're in the premiership with 35k fans, 10k+ of which have not long history of support, don't know past players, don't know old songs, etc etc does it not create a them & us situation between the old & the new?
It's happened at Arsenal. It's happened at Chelsea. United. I even know Charlton that were at their wits end with some of supporters you had in your glory years.
I think it's all well & good increasing your attendances, but I've always thought first & foremost you should concentrate on lapsed fans first and get them back with the Charlton bug, rather than appealing to new fans who don't have the connection of the club within them.
& I'm sure you are equally concentrating on the lapsed fans from previous databases anyway, but it's interesting how much people talk on here of attracting NEW fans.
You have to take the good with the bad surely.
If the club is doing well on and off teh pitch, then surely we can allow new peopel in to share our delight.
If only a fraction of those become hardened fans then its worth it.
Thirdly it was intended to be a reposte to what I thought was a somewhat aggressively postured post which started in a measured fashion and then went into what a bit of anti Charlton bashing all bound up in a real supporters versus plastics agenda when it got to this bit:-
[cite]Posted By: Sparrows Lane Lion[/cite]I can't help but think, based on the wayyou infiltrated the schools in Kentin the 90's and had people going with no Charlton history or connection,
I am all in favour of other club fans coming on here and giving their perspective but if they are going to make a provocative statement like that, they are bound to get a reaction light-hearted or otherwise.
Charlton were equally provocative trying to stuff their free tickets in my face when I was a 12 year old kid trying to get me down there every other week! It's left a permanent scar on my psyche! I never buckled though, I stayed loyal, as the 2 proper Charlton fans rubbed my nose in it for a few years!
[cite]Posted By: Sparrows Lane Lion[/cite]Charlton were equally provocative trying to stuff their free tickets in my face when I was a 12 year old kid trying to get me down there every other week! It's left a permanent scar on my psyche! I never buckled though, I stayed loyal, as the 2 proper Charlton fans rubbed my nose in it for a few years!
Lol! My best mate is a Millwall fan, I could never turn him even though in recent years he's been with me to the high alter of Football aka The Valley SE7 more times than he's been to the New Den.
Fans come and go. I know one fan who stayed away for a lot of the time we were in the Premiership but is a season ticket holder now. Obviously, there are many more who are the other way round. On balance, can the club be too picky about who buys tickets - the aim must surely be to fill the ground, whether it be 27,111 or 40,000?
[cite]Posted By: Sparrows Lane Lion[/cite]The point I was trying to make, & this comes from my experience of limited success in comparison with yourselves, is that when we've had an influx of fans, (& by influx we're talking a few dozen/hundred!!) for some of our bigger games/successful periods, it's been quite annoying for the regulars to be next to "fans" who haven't got the same passion/connection/culture/attitude. We've scored and whilst the regulars are falling over, jumping shouting etc you spot the new fans standing & clapping instead. Not singing. Not joining in etc.
Frankly, the way things have been until very recently we'd just be glad if they came along and didn't boo.
[cite]Posted By: Sparrows Lane Lion[/cite]I was wondering whether that would pose a problem at Charlton and whether many of the existing fans, like yourselves who have sat through several years of shit & despair, would be a little frustrated and annoyed if in 5 years time when you're maybe challenging in the Championship play-offs that all of a sudden there's 25k fans, 9k of which haven't shown their faces for the previous 5+ years.
I can't speak for others but I have no problem with new fans coming in.
I think it has been long held belief in football boards and amongst the truly committed fans, that giving out freebies and encouraging "plastics" and other "fair weather" supporters risks alienating the core support base. This was the view that Tangoman used to spout before he wrecked Palarse.
Airman Brown and Henry are much more knowledgeable on these matters than I but I guess it depends on how you distribute the freebies, understand the sentiments of your core fans base and also how you manage their expectations.
Most loyal committed Charlton fans could see then and can see now that the brightest future for the club is via full houses every week. Yes we hope for a large investor to come along and throw money in to improve the footballing side but a measure of success of the club is full home areas every week. It thus is vital to get as many in as we can because:
1. Even if they got in for nix, they will spend in the retail areas
2. hopefully they will want to come again because they enjoyed the experience and they know what and where to go
3. as it was a good experience they will encourage their friends and relatives to come along with them
All of this leads to additional revenue which the club would not otherwise get and can mean the difference between being a buying club and a selling club.
In the end, which is the point I was making, those who come casually or for free won't all stay "plastics", some will become as core and loyal and committed as you and I am to our own clubs.
I am proud and appreciative of people like Airman Brown, Henry and other fans who have engaged positively in this process either as senior employees, directors or fans representatives. Not everything has been done right, but clubs can either engage positively with its fan base, or do what people like Tangoman did at Palarse which is to take them all for mugs.
I don't care how long people have been coming - it's what they do when they're there that is important. It's the serial moaners and people with unrealistic expectations that do my head in. Are they more likely to be the new fans? Don't know.
Comments
SLL, does it matter whether they started as Charlton fans? Does it matter if not all of them stayed when the going got tough? Where are Millwall fans created, out of the ooze in the bottom of Surrey Quays, or do you just throw a net over anyone who travels along the Old Kent Road and then inject them with some kind of Spanner serum? Did all of those who followed the Lions when you were in top flight keep coming or did they drift away?
How do you get a connection and passion?
I was a Chelski fan as a kid, seduced by the glamour of Osgood, Cooke and Bonetti, and the violence of Chopper and McCready. I was taken to see Charlton by my dad and eventually the bond that we all have with our clubs took a hold and that was that.
After I started going regularly, some of my mates or kids of my Dads mates came with us. One lad was a Gooner, another had no allegiance. Both just came for the crack but within a year or so, they were committed fans. They have brought their mates and so on.
As I understand it, the initiatives that Charlton started and the targets that they continue to work towards are an extension of the things that happened to me and the people we brought along. Not all of those people who came and watched, became committed fans, crowds are significantly lower now than in the Premier League. On the other hand the last time we were in tier 3, the average was around 7,000 apart from the promotion year which was a little higher.
I think SLL asks a very pertinent question. I think the answer is that in (good old language) Div 1 we enticed many new supporters who gradually got into the habit of going. If you stay there then these new supporters gradually become more ardent. I have a friend who became a season ticket holder in 1998/99, closely followed by his parents. He gave up while we were in Div 2 whilst his parents stuck it out until this season came around. I believe that had we even just done OK in Div 2 that they would all still be going. I also think that the longer we are unsuccessful then the harder it will be to get them back.
I think to find out a club's real support, you have to put them in the league we're in now. So the answer to how much 'real support' we have is to look at our current attendences which although fall behind Leeds and Norwich are superior to what I believe several current Premiership clubs would get including Wigan, Blackpool, Bolton, Blackburn, Stoke and Fulham.
Lighten up mate, firstly it wasn't an insult, it was a light hearted comment to make a point. I could have just as easily written
"where are Charlton fans created, out of the ooze in the bottom of Thames Barrier, or do we just throw a net over anyone who travels along the Rochester Way and then inject them with some kind of Addicks Alixir?" I can't imagine anyone on here would have taken that as an insult.
Secondly it wasn't aimed at SLL personally
Thirdly it was intended to be a reposte to what I thought was a somewhat aggressively postured post which started in a measured fashion and then went into what a bit of anti Charlton bashing all bound up in a real supporters versus plastics agenda when it got to this bit:-
I am all in favour of other club fans coming on here and giving their perspective but if they are going to make a provocative statement like that, they are bound to get a reaction light-hearted or otherwise.
Dal my brothers club have brought 2 coach loads each year since jonjo started playing, at least 5 of those boys have since joined Charlton in a playing capacity. I'm quite sure Charlton even help with the coach travel to get them there.
Thanks Uncle, yes the A13.. I really am useless with the A roads...
I live in Loughton ...
I think the target 40k name may be a bit misleading but now after reading this i'm more clued up with what they are trying to achieve, it's all good to me. Whilst down in the lower leagues, attendance money is a huge part of the clubs income so we should encourage any attempt to improve that.
This sounds to me a bit like an unelected / unrepresentative fans fourm.
How?
The meetings are certainly never advertised anywhere.
Edit: As far as I can see.
Bing - a well reasoned and valid response. Cheers. The point I was trying to make, & this comes from my experience of limited success in comparison with yourselves, is that when we've had an influx of fans, (& by influx we're talking a few dozen/hundred!!) for some of our bigger games/successful periods, it's been quite annoying for the regulars to be next to "fans" who haven't got the same passion/connection/culture/attitude. We've scored and whilst the regulars are falling over, jumping shouting etc you spot the new fans standing & clapping instead. Not singing. Not joining in etc.
It can cause a bit of friction between the existing support and the influx of non-Millwall support.
I was wondering whether that would pose a problem at Charlton and whether many of the existing fans, like yourselves who have sat through several years of shit & despair, would be a little frustrated and annoyed if in 5 years time when you're maybe challenging in the Championship play-offs that all of a sudden there's 25k fans, 9k of which haven't shown their faces for the previous 5+ years.
Give it 15 years and you're in the premiership with 35k fans, 10k+ of which have not long history of support, don't know past players, don't know old songs, etc etc does it not create a them & us situation between the old & the new?
It's happened at Arsenal. It's happened at Chelsea. United. I even know Charlton that were at their wits end with some of supporters you had in your glory years.
I think it's all well & good increasing your attendances, but I've always thought first & foremost you should concentrate on lapsed fans first and get them back with the Charlton bug, rather than appealing to new fans who don't have the connection of the club within them.
& I'm sure you are equally concentrating on the lapsed fans from previous databases anyway, but it's interesting how much people talk on here of attracting NEW fans.
If the club is doing well on and off teh pitch, then surely we can allow new peopel in to share our delight.
If only a fraction of those become hardened fans then its worth it.
Lol! My best mate is a Millwall fan, I could never turn him even though in recent years he's been with me to the high alter of Football aka The Valley SE7 more times than he's been to the New Den.
I can't speak for others but I have no problem with new fans coming in.
I think it has been long held belief in football boards and amongst the truly committed fans, that giving out freebies and encouraging "plastics" and other "fair weather" supporters risks alienating the core support base. This was the view that Tangoman used to spout before he wrecked Palarse.
Airman Brown and Henry are much more knowledgeable on these matters than I but I guess it depends on how you distribute the freebies, understand the sentiments of your core fans base and also how you manage their expectations.
Most loyal committed Charlton fans could see then and can see now that the brightest future for the club is via full houses every week. Yes we hope for a large investor to come along and throw money in to improve the footballing side but a measure of success of the club is full home areas every week. It thus is vital to get as many in as we can because:
1. Even if they got in for nix, they will spend in the retail areas
2. hopefully they will want to come again because they enjoyed the experience and they know what and where to go
3. as it was a good experience they will encourage their friends and relatives to come along with them
All of this leads to additional revenue which the club would not otherwise get and can mean the difference between being a buying club and a selling club.
In the end, which is the point I was making, those who come casually or for free won't all stay "plastics", some will become as core and loyal and committed as you and I am to our own clubs.
I am proud and appreciative of people like Airman Brown, Henry and other fans who have engaged positively in this process either as senior employees, directors or fans representatives. Not everything has been done right, but clubs can either engage positively with its fan base, or do what people like Tangoman did at Palarse which is to take them all for mugs.
You join and then you can suggest that at the next meeting : - )