[cite]Posted By: ColinTat[/cite]That's not a foul. Semedo's on the wrong side of the Plymouth player, the Plymouth players trying to shield the ball. Semedo just runs into the Plymouth's players leg, as the Pymouth player's setting himself.
Don't agree, Colin.
I've watched it time and time again, trying to freeze the frame.
Semedo is slightly loose in possession, but as the Argyle player comes across he first pushes Semedo and looks to have 'played the man' with his foot before getting possession.
Reid made that game for us, far and away the best player on the pitch for us with Elliot a close second. If we hadn''t played like a Sunday league side in the first half we'd have stormed it 2 or 3 - nil. If they hadnt also played as though they were kicking a beer can around a park after a 3-litre bottle of white lightning they'd have punished us by the same amount. I will say this. Whatever Parkinson is doing / saying in the break is doing the business and we would be in trouble without him...
If the defence had started to step up as soon as the Plymouth attack broke down then:-
a) Semedo wouldn't have been so isolated
b) The Plymouth guys would have had much less sight of goal as his angles would be worse
Also the full backs shouldn't be out on the touchline until a winger gets the ball out there, they should be tucked in.
[cite]Posted By: Vinnie V.[/cite]Wasn't there but Racon got man of the match in the Sun. I know it's the Sun, but still.
2 fans in the plymouth end agreed he was too (both at the game), I didn't really see much of him but they said he was everywhere.. in my books it was Dailly. or Reid, well would have been Reid if the Plymouth tactics weren't to hack him down. Dirty tactics
The problem with the second Plymouth goal highlights a concern I have with some of the players, Abbot comes to mind (though I think he's still a perfectly decent player.) At several points when there has been a foul throw/possible offside/maybe foul I have seen some players stop in their tracks expecting the whistle to blow when it's obvious refs at this level are not all that and decisions don't always go the way they 'should.' I point out Abbot as an example as several times at Plymouth he went down after a challenge (which often were fouls IMO) but when the whistle didn't blow he just sat there or moaned at the lino instead of picking himself back up. That's not to say he's not a good player, its just something I have noticed about his play.
I think Abbotts 2 attempts at overhead kicks were hilarious, the second one he actually sat on the ground and tried one like that.. probably would have had more luck heading it backwards towards goal, or easier turning around and smacking it..
Do think we need to work on our corners, and defending them/throw ins too.
Re the foul or not, given the debate on here when we have chance to see on tv over and over you can't blame the ref whatever the rights and wrongs of the decision.
How is the centre of midfield woefully out of position? Racon makes a challenge as Plymouth are attacking down their right(ish), Semedo is to his right. Racon doesn't manage to win back possession cleanly, but he halts the attack and the ball breaks towards Semedo. You can see Racon is expecting Semedo to win the ball and is readying himself to get involved in a break. Semedo fails to win the ball and the Plymouth player turns, takes two paces and lashes it in - you make it sound like 3 plymouth players were allowed to run 20/30 yards unchallenged through the middle of the pitch, when in reality there's about 3 seconds between Racon's initial tackle and the ball hitting the back of the net. As both Racon and Semedo are in position to challenge for the ball in that short period I would argue they are both positioned exactly where they should be. Plymouth just got the run of the ball on that occasion (aided by a weak challenge by Jose) and then also get fortunate with the kind of shot that 80% of the time isn't even on target - them's the breaks sometimes.
Maybe Racon could have anticipated better and headed back towards goal after his initial tackle, but I don't think he had time to get between the shot and the goal and, frankly, Racon continually get pelters for not doing enough in the way of goals and assists and the only way he's going to answer those critics is to try and take up more and better offensive positions, which he was trying to by starting to move forwards in anticpation of a break away.
I'll happily take the odd goal against like this one if it means we're trying to play on the front foot, even away from home.
Sorry mate I'll hold my hands up thought that was Reid putting in a very weak toe? Might be wrong there. If it's not Reid then Racon is woefully out of position. You need your central midfielders in a central position, and if the danger is on the full back they need to push out. If it's Racon he's sitting in a wing back position. Clearly as the ball breaks down and comes back inside, your central midfield ain't inside. When you have two great center halves, I ain't to bothered about an oppo winger one on one with our fb's cause I know most wingers are shit in this div and our cb's are champ standard mopping up any crosses/cuts inside. Your central midfielder should be offering drift defence, not sitting in a complete one sided hole.
Watch Rugby. Team in defense do not try to cover every wide channel, they attempt to stay central and drift as the ball is moved out wide. If it's Racon for their second goal his position is utterly wrong. The ball moves inside he's out of that phase of play. Now if he could put a destructive tackle in like McCormack, he might get away with poor positional play, and breakup play. But he can't and that toe tackle was pathetic. If Reid made such a poor toe tackle, he'd need a cm inside him to block play.
You're absolutely wrong about talking 'about the front foot'. You need to win phases of play before you have the potential to create. For some reason we are not winning phases of play in the first 45. My arguement is that our wingers provide more than enough threat, and it is up to our cm's to set their stall out and physically move the team up ten yards. Not losing ball in the final third but middle third. Do this and we'll make the play offs.
So what you're saying is Col, that Racon shouldn't have moved to the left to break up Plymouth's attack down the inside right channel , instead he should have stayed inside and just let the Plymouth player run straight past him? If he'd done that the Plymouth player would have had a free chance at a shot on goal from distance - it wouldn't have been a cross that could be 'mopped up' as the attack is more central than that (I'll let slip the inferenece that we should just let teams cross as often as they like).
You seem to be contradicting yourself with your Rugby analogy (which doesn't really work because Rugby tends to happen in slow phases of play allowing the whole defence to move across the pitch as a line of men + they have 15 men playing in a smimilar ammount of space, greatly reducing the amount of space each man has to cover), on one hand you seem to be criticising Racon for not staying positionally rigid but on the other hand you are saying the midfield needs to move across the pitch as play dictates - well if the latter is the case then that's what Racon has done to close down the space that has been vacated by Reid and through which Plymouth are attacking.
We played with Semedo and Ally Mac in a few games this season and we were totally devoid of creativity in the middle of the park, and neither of them were particularly good at getting our wide men on the ball, whereas it would seem Racon was an important cog in getting Reid and Martin plenty of the ball second half at Plymouth. Like I say, I'll settle for concedeing a few more in return for scoring more and actually being entertaining to watch.
No Racon is terrible at getting the wingers into play early in positive phases. I never learnt so much as to critical analyse game time play, in match, as to when I played Rugby as an adult. If you can not critically analyse cross-sport then I'm afraid you are a Stuckist, doomed to be unable to analyse where things go wrong. Clearly you have never watched Super 12 or State of Origin if you think rugby 'tends to happen in slow phases of play', that is an ignorant comment.
No I do not say that a central midfielder should not defend left/right channels. Merely that they should have the brains to communicate to their fellow players, where their inside left/right should be; they need to drift not be stuck. If you look at the goal both central midfielders were ten yards from the left touch line; as now I agree with you that it was Racon not Reid. They are central midfielders, only Semedo was busting a gut to block offensive play. This is the last ten minutes of play and yet the communication is clearly non-existant.
Inference is not fact, buit facile arguement. If you have read my previous posts, you will see how positive I am about Matty Fry. He offers suggestive space to a winger to go outside, but as soon as they go outside he closes them down and frequently get's a block in. This tactical play from such an acute youngster, will lead to efficent play throughout his career. Show the outside, good central defenders in this league will batt out and defend virtually every cross against the poor wingers in this league; indeed two efficent center halves will cut out danger inside as long as cm's defend breakdown. I consider Jon-Paul McGovern as one of the better wingers in this division in this league, and he created very little against us last season.
I will critically analyse till the cows eat ecoli. Having said that players at 26 that can not read the game and are positionally inept will never learn.
Respect to colin for the time and effort in to these analytical posts about racon !!
But why and how you can go so deep into our two bob footballers is a bit scary are you next in line for parkys job , or are you mccormack or stav next in line for the rac's place or are your racons neighbour and he's had the music on too loud .......
If I was racon I'd be afraid , very afraid ...... The tat man don't like you !
[cite]Posted By: Exiled_Addick[/cite]So what you're saying is Col, that Racon shouldn't have moved to the left to break up Plymouth's attack down the inside right channel , instead he should have stayed inside and just let the Plymouth player run straight past him? If he'd done that the Plymouth player would have had a free chance at a shot on goal from distance - it wouldn't have been a cross that could be 'mopped up' as the attack is more central than that (I'll let slip the inferenece that we should just let teams cross as often as they like).
Surely the player that should have moved to challenge was the full back? Colin you seem to be nit-picking to find excuses to criticise Racon rather than judge him on his play, he's been our most consistent player this season for me, for a player often described as inconsistent. I think what we can all agree on is our shape isn't right. Parky has been coaching Semedo and Racon for three years, are they not following his instructions or are they trying to do too much to cover for faults elsewhere in our system?
Good post, Harveys.
I've also tried to highlight a point that's occurred to me recently:
Parky's tactical game plan invariably includes 2 touchline hugging wingers, which stretches opposing defences.
Now that leaves a lot of ground in central midfield for just 2 CMs to cover, often against opponents with 3 CMs and
1 winger.cutting inside.
My point is that we are at times simply outnumbered in central midfield - leaving Racon and Semedo too much space to have to cover in comparison to opponents.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]Good post, Harveys.
I've also tried to highlight a point that's occurred to me recently:
Parky's tactical game plan invariably includes 2 touchline hugging wingers, which stretches opposing defences.
Now that leaves a lot of ground in central midfield for just 2 CMs to cover, often against opponents with 3 CMs and
1 winger.cutting inside.
My point is thatwe are at times simply outnumbered in central midfield- leaving Racon and Semedo too much space to have to cover in comparison to opponents.
I would agree with that Oggy, and i think that's what caused the goal on Saturday - Racon wasn't positionally ill disciplined, he just couldn't be in two places at once and nor would Semedo, JJ or Ally mack have been able to be either.
Quite what the solution is with our personel I don't know - perhaps 4-2-3-1 with Martin in behind Abbot, at least away from home but would that team score enough and could we really set up with a home taem and and away, i.e. different selections and formations for home and away games - would Benno score goals at home if he was being constantly dropped for away games?
Probably we need the two wingers to be working harder to tuck in when we lose possession on the opposite side - perhaps Martin is more at fault for not getting around to help cover Semedo when Racon got pulled left to break up the initial attack.
Indeed I agree with that Exiled. Our wingers do need to tuck in away from home. I'm not a massive fan of Martin O'Neill football but he always coaches his wingers to tuck in to go out when turnover ball happens. If the wingers tuck in on the inside channel it helps keep the midfield tight, and any opposition offensive play is hopefully forced into centrally congested areas.
Maybe I am nit picking. Players ultimately need to make the right choices game time. Some do, and some never will be acute defensively a la Ambrose.
[cite]Posted By: ColinTat[/cite]Indeed I agree with that Exiled. Our wingers do need to tuck in away from home. I'm not a massive fan of Martin O'Neill football but he always coaches his wingers to tuck in to go out when turnover ball happens. If the wingers tuck in on the inside channel it helps keep the midfield tight, and any opposition offensive play is hopefully forced into centrally congested areas.quote]
I think all of us agree here, but the full-backs also need to tuck in and play slightly in front of the centre-backs. Who's going to volunteer to explain all this to Parky?
Comments
Don't agree, Colin.
I've watched it time and time again, trying to freeze the frame.
Semedo is slightly loose in possession, but as the Argyle player comes across he first pushes Semedo and looks to have 'played the man' with his foot before getting possession.
Foul.
;o)
a) Semedo wouldn't have been so isolated
b) The Plymouth guys would have had much less sight of goal as his angles would be worse
Also the full backs shouldn't be out on the touchline until a winger gets the ball out there, they should be tucked in.
Clear foul on Semedo on build up to their 2nd[/quote]
Didn't think it was to be honest.
2 fans in the plymouth end agreed he was too (both at the game), I didn't really see much of him but they said he was everywhere.. in my books it was Dailly. or Reid, well would have been Reid if the Plymouth tactics weren't to hack him down. Dirty tactics
Do think we need to work on our corners, and defending them/throw ins too.
Sorry mate I'll hold my hands up thought that was Reid putting in a very weak toe? Might be wrong there. If it's not Reid then Racon is woefully out of position. You need your central midfielders in a central position, and if the danger is on the full back they need to push out. If it's Racon he's sitting in a wing back position. Clearly as the ball breaks down and comes back inside, your central midfield ain't inside. When you have two great center halves, I ain't to bothered about an oppo winger one on one with our fb's cause I know most wingers are shit in this div and our cb's are champ standard mopping up any crosses/cuts inside. Your central midfielder should be offering drift defence, not sitting in a complete one sided hole.
Watch Rugby. Team in defense do not try to cover every wide channel, they attempt to stay central and drift as the ball is moved out wide. If it's Racon for their second goal his position is utterly wrong. The ball moves inside he's out of that phase of play. Now if he could put a destructive tackle in like McCormack, he might get away with poor positional play, and breakup play. But he can't and that toe tackle was pathetic. If Reid made such a poor toe tackle, he'd need a cm inside him to block play.
You're absolutely wrong about talking 'about the front foot'. You need to win phases of play before you have the potential to create. For some reason we are not winning phases of play in the first 45. My arguement is that our wingers provide more than enough threat, and it is up to our cm's to set their stall out and physically move the team up ten yards. Not losing ball in the final third but middle third. Do this and we'll make the play offs.
You seem to be contradicting yourself with your Rugby analogy (which doesn't really work because Rugby tends to happen in slow phases of play allowing the whole defence to move across the pitch as a line of men + they have 15 men playing in a smimilar ammount of space, greatly reducing the amount of space each man has to cover), on one hand you seem to be criticising Racon for not staying positionally rigid but on the other hand you are saying the midfield needs to move across the pitch as play dictates - well if the latter is the case then that's what Racon has done to close down the space that has been vacated by Reid and through which Plymouth are attacking.
We played with Semedo and Ally Mac in a few games this season and we were totally devoid of creativity in the middle of the park, and neither of them were particularly good at getting our wide men on the ball, whereas it would seem Racon was an important cog in getting Reid and Martin plenty of the ball second half at Plymouth. Like I say, I'll settle for concedeing a few more in return for scoring more and actually being entertaining to watch.
No I do not say that a central midfielder should not defend left/right channels. Merely that they should have the brains to communicate to their fellow players, where their inside left/right should be; they need to drift not be stuck. If you look at the goal both central midfielders were ten yards from the left touch line; as now I agree with you that it was Racon not Reid. They are central midfielders, only Semedo was busting a gut to block offensive play. This is the last ten minutes of play and yet the communication is clearly non-existant.
Inference is not fact, buit facile arguement. If you have read my previous posts, you will see how positive I am about Matty Fry. He offers suggestive space to a winger to go outside, but as soon as they go outside he closes them down and frequently get's a block in. This tactical play from such an acute youngster, will lead to efficent play throughout his career. Show the outside, good central defenders in this league will batt out and defend virtually every cross against the poor wingers in this league; indeed two efficent center halves will cut out danger inside as long as cm's defend breakdown. I consider Jon-Paul McGovern as one of the better wingers in this division in this league, and he created very little against us last season.
I will critically analyse till the cows eat ecoli. Having said that players at 26 that can not read the game and are positionally inept will never learn.
But why and how you can go so deep into our two bob footballers is a bit scary are you next in line for parkys job , or are you mccormack or stav next in line for the rac's place or are your racons neighbour and he's had the music on too loud .......
If I was racon I'd be afraid , very afraid ...... The tat man don't like you !
Its on the beeb now
Surely the player that should have moved to challenge was the full back? Colin you seem to be nit-picking to find excuses to criticise Racon rather than judge him on his play, he's been our most consistent player this season for me, for a player often described as inconsistent. I think what we can all agree on is our shape isn't right. Parky has been coaching Semedo and Racon for three years, are they not following his instructions or are they trying to do too much to cover for faults elsewhere in our system?
I've also tried to highlight a point that's occurred to me recently:
Parky's tactical game plan invariably includes 2 touchline hugging wingers, which stretches opposing defences.
Now that leaves a lot of ground in central midfield for just 2 CMs to cover, often against opponents with 3 CMs and
1 winger.cutting inside.
My point is that we are at times simply outnumbered in central midfield - leaving Racon and Semedo too much space to have to cover in comparison to opponents.
I would agree with that Oggy, and i think that's what caused the goal on Saturday - Racon wasn't positionally ill disciplined, he just couldn't be in two places at once and nor would Semedo, JJ or Ally mack have been able to be either.
Quite what the solution is with our personel I don't know - perhaps 4-2-3-1 with Martin in behind Abbot, at least away from home but would that team score enough and could we really set up with a home taem and and away, i.e. different selections and formations for home and away games - would Benno score goals at home if he was being constantly dropped for away games?
Probably we need the two wingers to be working harder to tuck in when we lose possession on the opposite side - perhaps Martin is more at fault for not getting around to help cover Semedo when Racon got pulled left to break up the initial attack.
Maybe I am nit picking. Players ultimately need to make the right choices game time. Some do, and some never will be acute defensively a la Ambrose.