[cite]Posted By: shirty5[/cite]Trouble in Shep Bush on saturday, when a group of Millwall turned up on the way back from Cardiff and caused mayhem. No surprises, re the trouble last night.
Er no, there wasn't. No trouble whatsoever as no QPR were about. So where do you get this "mayhem" from?
[cite]Posted By: shirty5[/cite]Trouble in Shep Bush on saturday, when a group of Millwall turned up on the way back from Cardiff and caused mayhem. No surprises, re the trouble last night.
Er no, there wasn't. No trouble whatsoever as no QPR were about. So where do you get this "mayhem" from?
[cite]Posted By: liamhappe[/cite]Post-game, it got ugly. Concourses were panic stations and journos were shuffled into the lounge just along from the concourse entrance to where the box is. 5 minutes later another journo who'd attempted to depart after the game came in visibly shaken and angered as he'd been threatened by Millwall on the home stand stairways (!) as well as seeing another 'wall threaten a mother and her kid, he estimated the kid as being about 12/13.
I couldn't find out anything concrete about the stabbing rumour although two were arrested on weapons charges on the laundry list of pulls by 11pm.
Apparently Millwall hooligans turned out in force to "teach QPR's muggy little firm a lesson" for "threatening to run 'em".
They taught said lesson by attacking coppers and innocent fans and threatening women and children.
Bravo Millwall, bravo. You sure did show the whole nation tonight.
Attention-seeking sad act bottom feeders.
Was you outside? No. So how do you for a fact that it was coppers and innocents only that were attacked?
Was you looking at the mob of QPR waiting outside on SA Road?
Did you hear them calling it on and saying "come on wall?"
Did you see the mob of 20 year olds on the stairs throwing coins and spitting on the Millwall below before Millwall chased them up the stairs? (probably how the journo got threatened if he was standing with them)
Did you see the mobs of QPR on the estates either side trying to attack the Millwall walking to White City and showering Millwall (including innocents and coppers) with glass bottles?
Did you see the mob of QPR continually fronting Millwall around White City/Wood Lane?
You've heard ONE report of ONE Millwall threatening a mum & child (if true a disgrace) but turn it into whole families all night being attacked. You won't be at the Newshopper for long mate, I can hear the Daily Star and Sun getting a contract sent out to you soon.
You saw nothing sitting in your press box, gossiping and relying on 2nd and 3rd hand information. Millwall had a turn out. QPR had a turnout. Both sets clashed. Innocents on both sides got caught up in it. Not right.
[cite]Posted By: shirty5[/cite]Trouble in Shep Bush on saturday, when a group of Millwall turned up on the way back from Cardiff and caused mayhem. No surprises, re the trouble last night.
Er no, there wasn't. No trouble whatsoever as no QPR were about. So where do you get this "mayhem" from?
haha did yo go looking then?
I wasn't there, heard about it though and there was no mayhem.
Obviously I'm not as I-T-faaaa'in-K as you SLL, so clearly Millwall were just a bunch of innocent angels ambushed on their way to a football game last night, right?
Get over yourself. Nobody's sparing the idiots at QPR who fancied themselves of any criticism, but the Millwall 'fans' congratulating themselves on every message forum around, posting videos on youtube of their antics and busting out such brilliant lines as "they asked Wall to bring it, it was brung" are worthy of the stigma they carry.
My article on the Shopper site this morning, contrary to what you and 'Astounded Chap' seem to think, makes no suggestion of Millwall being entirely responsible for the troubles or the resulting arrests.
I recounted what I saw and heard and that alone here, not once did I even insinuate that my account was the whole story, of course it isn't. But that's overly-defensive assumption for you.
Sounds like I've got some competition for that Daily Star gig.
That was unlucky there were no QPR around , what on earth did you then?
so sad
I wasn't there. Some person has claimed Millwall caused mayhem in Shep Bush. There wasn't. So why lie?
You weren't there though. You've just had a pop at Newshopper bloke for "relying on 2nd and 3rd hand information" about last night's trouble which was obviously all down to QPR, and then passed comment on something that may or may not have happened in Shepherd Bush on Saturday when you weren't even in the same postcode.
He wasn't even there, but he is prepared to defend his fellow knuckle draggers............ suppose he can't be everywhere after all, but he always seems to be on here for some reason
problem is sparrow that this is becoming an all too familiar story. Oppo fans know that millwall are gonna bring a load of bellends and wind them up, it all kicks off and nobody ever see's anything. Its embarrasing and if people that supported my team kept acting the same way id seriously think about if it was worth bein associated with the club anymore. I know you might be millwall through and through and love the football side of it, but you've only gotta walk around Bexleyheath to see the absolute helmets that get off with thinking they are 'pwoper millwall'.
[cite]Posted By: liamhappe[/cite]Obviously I'm not as I-T-faaaa'in-K as you SLL, so clearly Millwall were just a bunch of innocent angels ambushed on their way to a football game last night, right?
Get over yourself. Nobody's sparing the idiots at QPR who fancied themselves of any criticism, but the Millwall 'fans' congratulating themselves on every message forum around, posting videos on youtube of their antics and busting out such brilliant lines as "they asked Wall to bring it, it was brung" are worthy of the stigma they carry.
My article on the Shopper site this morning, contrary to what you and 'Astounded Chap' seem to think, makes no suggestion of Millwall being entirely responsible for the troubles or the resulting arrests.
I recounted what I saw and heard and that alone here, not once did I even insinuate that my account was the whole story, of course it isn't. But that's overly-defensive assumption for you.
Sounds like I've got some competition for that Daily Star gig.
Where did I say Millwall were innocent? Read the last paragraph.
Not being defensive, just that your post solely mentions Millwall and insinuates Millwall were terrorising families all night. Not a mention of QPR being involved as well. Neither side are blameless.
[cite]Posted By: clivey_hero[/cite]He wasn't even there, but he is prepared to defend his fellow knuckle draggers............
suppose he can't be everywhere after all, but he always seems to be on here for some reason
very odd
anyway , back to sleep
What happened at the bush then?
Considering those that went have been winding QPR up saying they turned up there, went in several of their pubs and there was no trouble at all, I'd be interested to know what this mayhem was you're claiming happened?
[cite]Posted By: liamhappe[/cite]Post-game, it got ugly. Concourses were panic stations and journos were shuffled into the lounge just along from the concourse entrance to where the box is. 5 minutes later another journo who'd attempted to depart after the game came in visibly shaken and angered as he'd been threatened by Millwall on the home stand stairways (!) as well as seeing another 'wall threaten a mother and her kid, he estimated the kid as being about 12/13.
I couldn't find out anything concrete about the stabbing rumour although two were arrested on weapons charges on the laundry list of pulls by 11pm.
Apparently Millwall hooligans turned out in force to "teach QPR's muggy little firm a lesson" for "threatening to run 'em".
They taught said lesson by attacking coppers and innocent fans and threatening women and children.
Bravo Millwall, bravo. You sure did show the whole nation tonight.
Attention-seeking sad act bottom feeders.
Was you outside? No. So how do you for a fact that it was coppers and innocents only that were attacked?
Was you looking at the mob of QPR waiting outside on SA Road?
Did you hear them calling it on and saying "come on wall?"
Did you see the mob of 20 year olds on the stairs throwing coins and spitting on the Millwall below before Millwall chased them up the stairs? (probably how the journo got threatened if he was standing with them)
Did you see the mobs of QPR on the estates either side trying to attack the Millwall walking to White City and showering Millwall (including innocents and coppers) with glass bottles?
Did you see the mob of QPR continually fronting Millwall around White City/Wood Lane?
You've heard ONE report of ONE Millwall threatening a mum & child (if true a disgrace) but turn it into whole families all night being attacked. You won't be at the Newshopper for long mate, I can hear the Daily Star and Sun getting a contract sent out to you soon.
You saw nothing sitting in your press box, gossiping and relying on 2nd and 3rd hand information. Millwall had a turn out. QPR had a turnout. Both sets clashed. Innocents on both sides got caught up in it. Not right.
Turn it in Sparrows, you're on here a fair bit and you seem like a fairly decent Millwall fan (yes there are a few), but all the talk on your message boards for the past week or so has been about "putting mouthy QPR in their place". So you took a massive number over there and by all accounts ran them ragged. If we're to believe your account it's as though you lot were unfairly ambushed from all angles. Millwall went over there to make a show, cause trouble and show QPR up, and that's exactly what happened.
[cite]Posted By: liamhappe[/cite]Post-game, it got ugly. Concourses were panic stations and journos were shuffled into the lounge just along from the concourse entrance to where the box is. 5 minutes later another journo who'd attempted to depart after the game came in visibly shaken and angered as he'd been threatened by Millwall on the home stand stairways (!) as well as seeing another 'wall threaten a mother and her kid, he estimated the kid as being about 12/13.
I couldn't find out anything concrete about the stabbing rumour although two were arrested on weapons charges on the laundry list of pulls by 11pm.
Apparently Millwall hooligans turned out in force to "teach QPR's muggy little firm a lesson" for "threatening to run 'em".
They taught said lesson by attacking coppers and innocent fans and threatening women and children.
Bravo Millwall, bravo. You sure did show the whole nation tonight.
Attention-seeking sad act bottom feeders.
Was you outside? No. So how do you for a fact that it was coppers and innocents only that were attacked?
Was you looking at the mob of QPR waiting outside on SA Road?
Did you hear them calling it on and saying "come on wall?"
Did you see the mob of 20 year olds on the stairs throwing coins and spitting on the Millwall below before Millwall chased them up the stairs? (probably how the journo got threatened if he was standing with them)
Did you see the mobs of QPR on the estates either side trying to attack the Millwall walking to White City and showering Millwall (including innocents and coppers) with glass bottles?
Did you see the mob of QPR continually fronting Millwall around White City/Wood Lane?
You've heard ONE report of ONE Millwall threatening a mum & child (if true a disgrace) but turn it into whole families all night being attacked. You won't be at the Newshopper for long mate, I can hear the Daily Star and Sun getting a contract sent out to you soon.
You saw nothing sitting in your press box, gossiping and relying on 2nd and 3rd hand information. Millwall had a turn out. QPR had a turnout. Both sets clashed. Innocents on both sides got caught up in it. Not right.
Turn it in Sparrows, you're on here a fair bit and you seem like a fairly decent Millwall fan (yes there are a few), but all the talk on your message boards for the past week or so has been about "putting mouthy QPR in their place". So you took a massive number over there and by all accounts ran them ragged. If we're to believe your account it's as though you lot were unfairly ambushed from all angles. Millwall went over there to make a show, cause trouble and show QPR up, and that's exactly what happened.
Er....read my post fella...to make it easy I'll quote it again;
"Millwall had a turn out. QPR had a turnout. Both sets clashed. Innocents on both sides got caught up in it. Not right."
I never said it was unfair. Millwall turned out, QPR turned out and BOTH went at it.
The initial line was a dig at the fact that despite merely adding my own personal account to be thrown in with all the others coming from last night, and despite the fact that I merely focused in on condemning the Millwall aspect after reading their boastful message boards (NOT pinning them as the sole problem in the scenario), you were not at all happy with my opinions being cast.
If that to you was me portraying it as all Millwall's fault and carrying my personal account as the gospel, then clearly the only thing that would have convinced you otherwise would be if I were to defend the Lions completely on the matter. So there's the grounds for mockery.
My post completely mentions Millwall, yes, but the topic is called - you guessed it - Millwall so that shouldn't surprise you. Tell you what, start up a QPR thread and me and you can discuss how stupid a bunch of West London wannabe thugs were for waving a red sheet at a bull and getting innocent fans caught up in trouble last night.
At no point did I point the finger solely at one club, I just chose to discuss one club.
spectators. The police mounted an enormous security operation around Loftus Road in an effort to prevent violence at the first meeting of these rivals for five years but fighting nonetheless erupted before and after kick-off.
Police made at least 11 arrests during an evening in which supporters fought in two pubs close to the stadium and scuffles and missile-throwing broke out in the stands following the final whistle. The arrests included three for assault and two for possessing offensive weapons. A steward said he pulled a dart out of a QPR fan's chest. The Football Association is likely to investigate the trouble inside the stadium. A few Paragraphs from other sites:
"Escort was a right laugh!! Fucking load of 'wall rammed gate and a load got in ticket less. Few disturbances in walkabout and round a few there boozers. In the ground those who know who they are top stuff!! Qpr didn't want to know!! They got ran up the stairs in there ground. Outside load of mouthy cunts my hands bruised after let's say sorting out a few things after getting called a cunt by some bloke. "Wall running up the stairs after Qpr few more got laid in to outisde ground, load wall chased a group up by the whitefields mall, now who ever cunts millwall off that's what to expect they bit of to much then they could chew, now let's put to bed the Qpr shit, that firm out today would handle anything makes you proud to be milwall !!"
"The scarfers just moved out of the way. The lads came down giving it were the same ones mouthing off in the stand to the left of us....but then again you weren't there.
The incident at Westfield - you were beaten back by 3 OB when you finally came back from running. Don't know if that was your main mob, but they didn't half move quickly and then they got more brave once there were a line of horses between us and we were surrounded by OB."
[cite]Posted By: liamhappe[/cite]The initial line was a dig at the fact that despite merely adding my own personal account to be thrown in with all the others coming from last night, and despite the fact that I merely focused in on condemning the Millwall aspect after reading their boastful message boards (NOT pinning them as the sole problem in the scenario), you were not at all happy with my opinions being cast.
If that to you was me portraying it as all Millwall's fault and carrying my personal account as the gospel, then clearly the only thing that would have convinced you otherwise would be if I were to defend the Lions completely on the matter. So there's the grounds for mockery.
My post completely mentions Millwall, yes, but the topic is called - you guessed it - Millwall so that shouldn't surprise you. Tell you what, start up a QPR thread and me and you can discuss how stupid a bunch of West London wannabe thugs were for waving a red sheet at a bull and getting innocent fans caught up in trouble last night.
At no point did I point the finger solely at one club, I just chose to discuss one club.
Alright Liam, we'll draw a line under it there.
By the way, two fans in hospital last night who were punctured by darts thrown from QPR on the estate. One is Millwall, one is QPR.
I'm guessing your friends don't trust you that much, as they don't seem to be telling you what happend.
Anyway, I love how in one post you dug a guy out for relaying his version of events from inside a press box when you wasnt even there lmao.
Maybe if you spent a little less time on a Charlton board and a little more time actually going to support your team your opinions might be worth a toss.
It's just a few bad apples who spoil their otherwise spotless image.
Practically every week.
Am really bored of Millwall's excuses. So QPR were involved too. It's always Millwall and someone, isn't it? And as anyone who is around London Bridge when they lose at home knows, they haven't changed much since the 70s.
I know plenty Millwall who are decent, SLD, you just have too high a percentage of complete nutter b*stards and it's about time the FA did something about them.
As a QPR fan said on another site, there hasn't been any trouble at Loftus Road for years, so it's funny how there's absolute mayhem when Millwall visit. It can't be Millwall's fault though can it?
One point that should be raised though, seeing as there was trouble in Shepherd's Bush literally all afternoon, which copper decided it would be a good idea to let the away fans out at the same time as QPR.
couple of quotes from you above "Perhaps if you spent more time reading posts carefully you wouldn't make yourself look silly" and "What happened at the bush then? Considering those that went have been winding QPR up saying they turned up there, went in several of their pubs and there was no trouble at all, I'd be interested to know what this mayhem was you're claiming happened? "
Perhaps its YOU who should read posts more carefully , I never claimed or posted anything about 'mayhem' at the bush ........... I was merely responding to your childish defence of your fellow lionesses.......... have a look at yourself
what happened at the qpr v millwall game was awful im a worker there at the ground and i was outside when the game finished there was hundreds of qpr fans trying to get out to go home but the police allowed the milllwall fans to all walk down past us with no police escort there was hundreds of them shouting and abusing everyone then all of a sudden the millwall fans had jumped over a wall running towards all of us there was kids screaming women and old people trying to get back into the ground there were wasnt enough police to stop them the qpr fans that were standing where i was, didnt say a word to any of them we had loads of kids there but yet the scum of millwall still attacked all of us .. in all my years of working at a football ground have never ever seen such disrespect for children and never seen such violence.. something should be done about the millwall fans as this was awful old men children and women all screaming and had no protection from the police it took at least an hour and a half after the match to feel safe to go home its awful nasty people how could they do that !!!!!!!
Read More http://www.fulhamchronicle.co.uk/fulham-and-hammersmith-news/2010/09/28/night-of-shame-as-11-arrested-following-qpr-riots-82029-27361446/#ixzz10v84x9DI
Comments
Er no, there wasn't. No trouble whatsoever as no QPR were about. So where do you get this "mayhem" from?
haha did yo go looking then?
Was you outside? No. So how do you for a fact that it was coppers and innocents only that were attacked?
Was you looking at the mob of QPR waiting outside on SA Road?
Did you hear them calling it on and saying "come on wall?"
Did you see the mob of 20 year olds on the stairs throwing coins and spitting on the Millwall below before Millwall chased them up the stairs? (probably how the journo got threatened if he was standing with them)
Did you see the mobs of QPR on the estates either side trying to attack the Millwall walking to White City and showering Millwall (including innocents and coppers) with glass bottles?
Did you see the mob of QPR continually fronting Millwall around White City/Wood Lane?
You've heard ONE report of ONE Millwall threatening a mum & child (if true a disgrace) but turn it into whole families all night being attacked. You won't be at the Newshopper for long mate, I can hear the Daily Star and Sun getting a contract sent out to you soon.
You saw nothing sitting in your press box, gossiping and relying on 2nd and 3rd hand information. Millwall had a turn out. QPR had a turnout. Both sets clashed. Innocents on both sides got caught up in it. Not right.
I wasn't there, heard about it though and there was no mayhem.
That was unlucky there were no QPR around , what on earth did you then?
so sad
I wasn't there. Some person has claimed Millwall caused mayhem in Shep Bush. There wasn't. So why lie?
Get over yourself. Nobody's sparing the idiots at QPR who fancied themselves of any criticism, but the Millwall 'fans' congratulating themselves on every message forum around, posting videos on youtube of their antics and busting out such brilliant lines as "they asked Wall to bring it, it was brung" are worthy of the stigma they carry.
My article on the Shopper site this morning, contrary to what you and 'Astounded Chap' seem to think, makes no suggestion of Millwall being entirely responsible for the troubles or the resulting arrests.
I recounted what I saw and heard and that alone here, not once did I even insinuate that my account was the whole story, of course it isn't. But that's overly-defensive assumption for you.
Sounds like I've got some competition for that Daily Star gig.
You weren't there though. You've just had a pop at Newshopper bloke for "relying on 2nd and 3rd hand information" about last night's trouble which was obviously all down to QPR, and then passed comment on something that may or may not have happened in Shepherd Bush on Saturday when you weren't even in the same postcode.
suppose he can't be everywhere after all, but he always seems to be on here for some reason
very odd
anyway , back to sleep
Where did I say Millwall were innocent? Read the last paragraph.
Not being defensive, just that your post solely mentions Millwall and insinuates Millwall were terrorising families all night. Not a mention of QPR being involved as well. Neither side are blameless.
What happened at the bush then?
Considering those that went have been winding QPR up saying they turned up there, went in several of their pubs and there was no trouble at all, I'd be interested to know what this mayhem was you're claiming happened?
Turn it in Sparrows, you're on here a fair bit and you seem like a fairly decent Millwall fan (yes there are a few), but all the talk on your message boards for the past week or so has been about "putting mouthy QPR in their place". So you took a massive number over there and by all accounts ran them ragged. If we're to believe your account it's as though you lot were unfairly ambushed from all angles. Millwall went over there to make a show, cause trouble and show QPR up, and that's exactly what happened.
Er....read my post fella...to make it easy I'll quote it again;
"Millwall had a turn out. QPR had a turnout. Both sets clashed. Innocents on both sides got caught up in it. Not right."
I never said it was unfair. Millwall turned out, QPR turned out and BOTH went at it.
If that to you was me portraying it as all Millwall's fault and carrying my personal account as the gospel, then clearly the only thing that would have convinced you otherwise would be if I were to defend the Lions completely on the matter. So there's the grounds for mockery.
My post completely mentions Millwall, yes, but the topic is called - you guessed it - Millwall so that shouldn't surprise you. Tell you what, start up a QPR thread and me and you can discuss how stupid a bunch of West London wannabe thugs were for waving a red sheet at a bull and getting innocent fans caught up in trouble last night.
At no point did I point the finger solely at one club, I just chose to discuss one club.
spectators. The police mounted an enormous security operation around Loftus Road in an effort to prevent violence at the first meeting of these rivals for five years but fighting nonetheless erupted before and after kick-off.
Police made at least 11 arrests during an evening in which supporters fought in two pubs close to the stadium and scuffles and missile-throwing broke out in the stands following the final whistle. The arrests included three for assault and two for possessing offensive weapons. A steward said he pulled a dart out of a QPR fan's chest. The Football Association is likely to investigate the trouble inside the stadium.
A few Paragraphs from other sites:
"Escort was a right laugh!! Fucking load of 'wall rammed gate and a load got in ticket less. Few disturbances in walkabout and round a few there boozers. In the ground those who know who they are top stuff!! Qpr didn't want to know!! They got ran up the stairs in there ground. Outside load of mouthy cunts my hands bruised after let's say sorting out a few things after getting called a cunt by some bloke. "Wall running up the stairs after Qpr few more got laid in to outisde ground, load wall chased a group up by the whitefields mall, now who ever cunts millwall off that's what to expect they bit of to much then they could chew, now let's put to bed the Qpr shit, that firm out today would handle anything makes you proud to be milwall !!"
"The scarfers just moved out of the way. The lads came down giving it were the same ones mouthing off in the stand to the left of us....but then again you weren't there.
The incident at Westfield - you were beaten back by 3 OB when you finally came back from running. Don't know if that was your main mob, but they didn't half move quickly and then they got more brave once there were a line of horses between us and we were surrounded by OB."
Alright Liam, we'll draw a line under it there.
By the way, two fans in hospital last night who were punctured by darts thrown from QPR on the estate. One is Millwall, one is QPR.
http://www.millwall.vitalfootball.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=53800&posts=6
I'm guessing your friends don't trust you that much, as they don't seem to be telling you what happend.
Anyway, I love how in one post you dug a guy out for relaying his version of events from inside a press box when you wasnt even there lmao.
Maybe if you spent a little less time on a Charlton board and a little more time actually going to support your team your opinions might be worth a toss.
We're talking about Saturday night Stu, not last night.
Perhaps if you spent more time reading posts carefully you wouldn't make yourself look silly.
Practically every week.
Am really bored of Millwall's excuses. So QPR were involved too. It's always Millwall and someone, isn't it? And as anyone who is around London Bridge when they lose at home knows, they haven't changed much since the 70s.
I know plenty Millwall who are decent, SLD, you just have too high a percentage of complete nutter b*stards and it's about time the FA did something about them.
One point that should be raised though, seeing as there was trouble in Shepherd's Bush literally all afternoon, which copper decided it would be a good idea to let the away fans out at the same time as QPR.
couple of quotes from you above
"Perhaps if you spent more time reading posts carefully you wouldn't make yourself look silly"
and
"What happened at the bush then?
Considering those that went have been winding QPR up saying they turned up there, went in several of their pubs and there was no trouble at all, I'd be interested to know what this mayhem was you're claiming happened? "
Perhaps its YOU who should read posts more carefully , I never claimed or posted anything about 'mayhem' at the bush ........... I was merely responding to your childish defence of your fellow lionesses..........
have a look at yourself
what happened at the qpr v millwall game was awful im a worker there at the ground and i was outside when the game finished there was hundreds of qpr fans trying to get out to go home but the police allowed the milllwall fans to all walk down past us with no police escort there was hundreds of them shouting and abusing everyone then all of a sudden the millwall fans had jumped over a wall running towards all of us there was kids screaming women and old people trying to get back into the ground there were wasnt enough police to stop them the qpr fans that were standing where i was, didnt say a word to any of them we had loads of kids there but yet the scum of millwall still attacked all of us .. in all my years of working at a football ground have never ever seen such disrespect for children and never seen such violence.. something should be done about the millwall fans as this was awful old men children and women all screaming and had no protection from the police it took at least an hour and a half after the match to feel safe to go home its awful nasty people how could they do that !!!!!!!
Read More http://www.fulhamchronicle.co.uk/fulham-and-hammersmith-news/2010/09/28/night-of-shame-as-11-arrested-following-qpr-riots-82029-27361446/#ixzz10v84x9DI
Millwall get a nice little stirring down below when they think other people are talking about how "ard" they are.
If we just forget about them, they'll just become nothing, a little nothingness in this world.
How he can defend them i really dont know.
I was in the All Bar One @ London Bridge before the game & you could sense something was going on. Saw some interesting people too.
They used to send the police up there before games to see who was about. Didnt see any before we left @ 6.30pm. Poor.