[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]isn't the point though Exiled that he should have played much more and would have gained that experience as he went along. We are in Tier 3 as people keep pointing out and not the PL and as a result Jonjo should have played far more often than he has.
Not if playing him weakened the team, which it did at times - we need to get promotion more than anything else. If we were mid-table going nowhere then I'd expect to see him most weeks getting experience along with Wagstaff and Solly but with every point counting Parky has a reasonsibility to put out the strongest team avaiable to him at that point. We can argue til the cows come home what that team is, but ultimately it's up to Parky and with his job at stake I'm sure he's not making his decisions lightly.
Having said that there are definitely times I think he should have started or should have been off the bench sooner. I argued for him to start against Colchester a couple of weeks back and he should have been on sooner at Southampton. There was also that period around February when 2 out of every 3 subs was enforced by injury - I've no doubt Jonjo would have been on more often but OParky's hand was limited by the subs for injured players and there were usually players playing worse than the ones Jonjo would naturally come on for. Parky's paid to make those decisions and I don't believe he's deliberately over looked Jonjo, in fact he's made more appearnaces than a lot of 18 year olds and he may look back and thank Parky when he's not burnt out at 28 like someone like Michael Owen.
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]isn't the point though Exiled that he should have played much more and would have gained that experience as he went along. We are in Tier 3 as people keep pointing out and not the PL and as a result Jonjo should have played far more often than he has.
Sorry. Large, I just really have to disagree with this. We are in a situation where the number one priority is getting promotion, even with no resources. Shelvey is young and learning, albeit hugely talented, and at times we simply could not afford to carry that learning curve in a vital season. The only games where he has really made a significant impact were playing 451 with Burton up top. But we got found out at that early in the season, and had to change to plan B, I am not convinced that Shelvey can yet hold his own in a 442 in this division, where there is little time and space to deliver the killer pass. Reminds me of Alex Song, who looked great for us in his first few games, but then the oppo worked out that they needed to hassle him, and he became far less effective. As with Shelvey, he maybe needs the time and space afforded more in the PL to show off his undoubted talent. Once Burton got injured, there was little opportunity to revert to 451 with JJ in the starting line-up. He has not been cold-shouldered: circumstances have simply dictated that he has ONLY made 27 appearances this season...
I imagine Parky is hurting as much as any of us about this, but is also realistic enough to know that it is probably in the best interests of the Club as well as Jonjo.
[cite]Posted By: allez les addicks[/cite]If it was a £5 million payment immediately, I imagine our OS would be stating that, after all I think we could all then understand why he's gone now as opposed to after the playoffs.
It will be an initial £1.7m rising to £4m in total over the years.
When Bent was sold the full figure was announced, even though that was a stream of payments like you say
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]isn't the point though Exiled that he should have played much more and would have gained that experience as he went along. We are in Tier 3 as people keep pointing out and not the PL and as a result Jonjo should have played far more often than he has.
Sorry. Large, I just really have to disagree with this. We are in a situation where the number one priority is getting promotion, even with no resources. Shelvey is young and learning, albeit hugely talented, and at times we simply could not afford to carry that learning curve in a vital season. The only games where he has really made a significant impact were playing 451 with Burton up top. But we got found out at that early in the season, and had to change to plan B, I am not convinced that Shelvey can yet hold his own in a 442 in this division, where there is little time and space to deliver the killer pass. Reminds me of Alex Song, who looked great for us in his first few games, but then the oppo worked out that they needed to hassle him, and he became far less effective. As with Shelvey, he maybe needs the time and space afforded more in the PL to show off his undoubted talent. Once Burton got injured, there was little opportunity to revert to 451 with JJ in the starting line-up. He has not been cold-shouldered: circumstances have simply dictated that he has ONLY made 27 appearances this season...
I imagine Parky is hurting as much as any of us about this, but is also realistic enough to know that it is probably in the best interests of the Club as well as Jonjo.
Weegie for the next Charlton manager - got my vote
I'll take a risk ... and maybe upset uncle in the process:
Good luck to the lad ... but will his lack of pace and poor heading ability limit just how good he can be? Granted he is good for 18, but that doesn't matter when you cross the touchline. They don't award bonus points for being younger than everyone else. The expectation is that you improve with time ... and that lack of pace might prove costly.
I hope I'm wrong.
Anyway, we'll watch his progress with interest ... but don't underestimate the culture shock of an Essex teenager (do they still use that word?) going to Liverpool. My guess is that he'll be back down South (QPR?) within two years.
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]isn't the point though Exiled that he should have played much more and would have gained that experience as he went along. We are in Tier 3 as people keep pointing out and not the PL and as a result Jonjo should have played far more often than he has.
Sorry. Large, I just really have to disagree with this. We are in a situation where the number one priority is getting promotion, even with no resources. Shelvey is young and learning, albeit hugely talented, and at times we simply could not afford to carry that learning curve in a vital season. The only games where he has really made a significant impact were playing 451 with Burton up top. But we got found out at that early in the season, and had to change to plan B, I am not convinced that Shelvey can yet hold his own in a 442 in this division, where there is little time and space to deliver the killer pass. Reminds me of Alex Song, who looked great for us in his first few games, but then the oppo worked out that they needed to hassle him, and he became far less effective. As with Shelvey, he maybe needs the time and space afforded more in the PL to show off his undoubted talent. Once Burton got injured, there was little opportunity to revert to 451 with JJ in the starting line-up. He has not been cold-shouldered: circumstances have simply dictated that he has ONLY made 27 appearances this season...
I imagine Parky is hurting as much as any of us about this, but is also realistic enough to know that it is probably in the best interests of the Club as well as Jonjo.
hi Heather, no need to be sorry and I'm more than happy for you to disagree with me, not for the first time either !! I can see your point but for a lot of the time this season we have played two defensive midfielders together and as a consequence have failed to create enough chances. Added to that Semedo and Racon have just two league goals between them in nearly eighty games. I'm not saying JJ should have started every game but there have been numerous occasions where he could have replaced Racon and been much, much more effective offensively. Semedo would have afforded the protection needed and with Bailey tucking in a lot from the left we wouldn't have been seriously exposed in midfield.
As for 'I imagine Parky is hurting as much as any of us about this' - LOL. As much perhaps as when we got humiliated 4-0 at Millwall and he was hurting more than anyone. Why would he be hurting, he hasn't been playing JJ anyway so why is he even bothered about it.
[cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]I'll take a risk ... and maybe upset uncle in the process:
Good luck to the lad ... but will his lack of pace and poor heading ability limit just how good he can be? Granted he is good for 18, but that doesn't matter when you cross the touchline. They don't award bonus points for being younger than everyone else. The expectation is that you improve with time ... and that lack of pace might prove costly.
I hope I'm wrong.
Anyway, we'll watch his progress with interest ... but don't underestimate the culture shock of an Essex teenager (do they still use that word?) going to Liverpool. My guess is that he'll be back down South (QPR?) within two years.
don't know about upsetting uncle but I don't know where to start with that post !!
[cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]I'll take a risk ... and maybe upset uncle in the process:
Good luck to the lad ... but will his lack of pace and poor heading ability limit just how good he can be? Granted he is good for 18, but that doesn't matter when you cross the touchline. They don't award bonus points for being younger than everyone else. The expectation is that you improve with time ... and that lack of pace might prove costly.
I hope I'm wrong.
Anyway, we'll watch his progress with interest ... but don't underestimate the culture shock of an Essex teenager (do they still use that word?) going to Liverpool. My guess is that he'll be back down South (QPR?) within two years.
don't know about upsetting uncle but I don't know where to start with that post !!
Sorry, not read through all the posts, but Unc do you realistically think JJ will actually get a game for the scousers? You look at Jack Hobbs who "the reds" snapped up from the imps in 2005 for a decent fee (for a 16 year old). He's now doing very well for the other LCFC, And Leicester - after a couple of years or so of joining "the reds". IfJJ ends up going out on loan to the likes of say Derby, as he moved on? What say your Mr Uncle?
Cannot say i am surprised. Good news for Jonjo and the club. Good Luck Jonjo, hope it all goes well, will watch your career with interest. What price last minute winner in playoffs scored by JJ?
I would imagine that Liverpool will have somewhere other than the premiership lined up for Jonjo to be plying his trade next season. Leicester City would be my guess (if they miss out on their play offs), given that Liverpool already have some sort of "agreement" with them apparently.
[cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]Good luck to the lad ... but will his lack of pace and poor heading ability limit just how good he can be? Granted he is good for 18, but that doesn't matter when you cross the touchline. They don't award bonus points for being younger than everyone else. The expectation is that you improve with time ... and that lack of pace might prove costly.
I know what you mean, but to me it's more a lack of acceleration than pace. Made a run to tackle a player at Southampton as an example, when he gets going he doesn't look slow.
Never going to be really quick, but only the very best in the world have very few weaknesses to their game.
Heading? He'll improve. Look at Rooney this season, started scoring more goals with his head. That's an improvement many people probably never thought he'd make.
I can see him slowly developing, and at times really pushing on suddenly. James Milner was another midfielder that came through at 16, he's really pushed on this season, Lampard didn't used to be an England regular until a few years at Chelsea, and Gareth Barry wasn't a regular in the England squad until his late 20s. I'm sure there will be a few Liverpool fans that write him off after a few bad games, I mean there are even Charlton fans saying he's overrated (not you, that's not what you've said), but then he'll probably surprise them and take his game up another level or two as some players do. Parker the best (only?) example of a player doing that with us.
[cite]Posted By: Boom[/cite]Sorry, not read through all the posts, but Unc do you realistically think JJ will actually get a game for the scousers? You look at Jack Hobbs who "the reds" snapped up from the imps in 2005 for a decent fee (for a 16 year old). He's now doing very well for the other LCFC, And Leicester - after a couple of years or so of joining "the reds". IfJJ ends up going out on loan to the likes of say Derby, as he moved on? What say your Mr Uncle?
Yes actually i do. And if he doesn't get injured i bet you it will be between 15 and 20 games at least
I never got the chance to see him play but was excited this season that we had a potential star in the making. I don't know why Parky didn't play him more often and if he goes on to greater things we will ask that question over and over. I must say that he showed great loyalty to the club by signing a pro contract when he was probably being tapped up by other clubs so we should all thank him and his family for that. The timing is very odd to me but then again Smallings signed for Man Utd mid season and carried on playing for Fulham. From what I have read and seen of him he seems like a good kid so I hope he goes on to bigger and better things. I do get the feeling that there are desperate times ahead for us and especially god forbid if we don't get promotion. Judging by the past few week's results I don't feel we have enough battlers in this side to push us on and get us those battling wins needed in the play-offs. I hope I am wrong but anyhow good luck Jonjo.
'Alan Simonsen played for us many years ago and at times looked ordinary in division 2 partly because the likes of dear old Martin Robinson (a player I admired by the way) and others were not good enough to appreciate what he was trying to do.
I'm not suggesting Jonjo is on a par with a European footballer of the year (although hopefully one day he may be) but the point stands that his footballing intelligence was better than the players around him and so he too would look ordinary at times.'
Spot kin on, last time I see Jonjo play (against Carlisle i think) we pinged 60 yard cross field ball up top to him and expected him to bring it down and take them on or flick it on too.....
His performance against Leyton Orient away was brilliant for me, even though he should have been sent off after 10 secs.....oops, theres another argument done to death already!!!
[cite]Posted By: Boom[/cite]Sorry, not read through all the posts, but Unc do you realistically think JJ will actually get a game for the scousers? You look at Jack Hobbs who "the reds" snapped up from the imps in 2005 for a decent fee (for a 16 year old). He's now doing very well for the other LCFC, And Leicester - after a couple of years or so of joining "the reds". IfJJ ends up going out on loan to the likes of say Derby, as he moved on? What say your Mr Uncle?
Yes actually i do. And if he doesn't get injured i bet you it will be between 15 and 20 games at least
A lot will depend on how their takeover goes, if it goes at all, and on who they bring in/sell over the summer.
They have got a lot of excellent midfielders already there so it will be a crowded squad for him to succeed from although it will do him a massive favor if Gerrard does go in the summer.
Going out on loan to a Premiership side like Brum/West Ham might be a good move for him to get some experience before being thrown into the cauldron of Anfield as a first-teamer.
I don't see much value in him going to the CCC for first-team action, he needs to learn about the more cultured style of the EPL rather than watch the ball fly about in the sky like it does in the lower tiers.
I reckon that Shelvey will be fantastic in the EPL because he will get more time on the ball and be able to play his natural game.
Jeez peeps, some off you would think its the end of the world. I liked jonjo and would love to have seen him stay till his 20's but could never have happend. If you read what liverpool and kenny daglish are doing you have to admire them and if you got a call from king kenny asking you to join the liverpool revoultion then you would have to be a grade a tit to refuse. Yes he won't break into the first team asap probably carling cup games he may even be loaned out to a preston or top championship team, infact if we go up whose to say its the last we will see of jonjo. 1.7m up front keeps us going for abit longer and as uncle says more will come in as and when he gets his chance plus hopefully some decent young liverpool talent heading to se7 all this for a player who hasn't started in months! He sadly dosnt fit into parkys plans and pp was not prepared as most of would to build the team around him in a 4 4 1 1 system. This will be a great deal murray and waggy will not have sold us short look at the macron deal they will have got as much as they could. Sad to hear he may not get to wembly now as would be wicked to see him spraying it around wembly. We have to move on and get the production line back online again, basey waggstaff, mabo tuna plus the 11 that signed scholors deals the other week could be future stars also. We had paul walsh rob lee, lee bowyer scotty parker and now jonjo all come through and go on to big things can't wait to see the new crop come through!
Good luck jonjo! And here's to the next bunch of 'charlton wonderkids' la la la la la la..
Not surprised and although disappointed it is understandable, as is the fee. If we were in the Prem or near to getting back the fee would have been a whole lot more. Also the Scousers finances are in a mess so they would not offer a shed load.
I expect him to be involved next season for them and hope for his sake Rafa is not
what adam said above..........all the best Jonjo, can't see him getting a game for Liverpool next season (would love to be proved wrong) but he'll probably appear in their Carling Cup side. I like others feel the fee is a p*sstake (but doubt we are in a financial position to barter!), hopefully with add ons it's more like £3m with a 25% sell on clause.
However, I do think this is possibly the worst possible time to announce this, just as we are reaching the crucial part of the season...
I don't have any problems with the board deciding to sell Jonjo if needs must. My problem is why he wasn't played as much as he should have been this season.
Comments
Not if playing him weakened the team, which it did at times - we need to get promotion more than anything else. If we were mid-table going nowhere then I'd expect to see him most weeks getting experience along with Wagstaff and Solly but with every point counting Parky has a reasonsibility to put out the strongest team avaiable to him at that point. We can argue til the cows come home what that team is, but ultimately it's up to Parky and with his job at stake I'm sure he's not making his decisions lightly.
Having said that there are definitely times I think he should have started or should have been off the bench sooner. I argued for him to start against Colchester a couple of weeks back and he should have been on sooner at Southampton. There was also that period around February when 2 out of every 3 subs was enforced by injury - I've no doubt Jonjo would have been on more often but OParky's hand was limited by the subs for injured players and there were usually players playing worse than the ones Jonjo would naturally come on for. Parky's paid to make those decisions and I don't believe he's deliberately over looked Jonjo, in fact he's made more appearnaces than a lot of 18 year olds and he may look back and thank Parky when he's not burnt out at 28 like someone like Michael Owen.
Sorry. Large, I just really have to disagree with this. We are in a situation where the number one priority is getting promotion, even with no resources. Shelvey is young and learning, albeit hugely talented, and at times we simply could not afford to carry that learning curve in a vital season. The only games where he has really made a significant impact were playing 451 with Burton up top. But we got found out at that early in the season, and had to change to plan B, I am not convinced that Shelvey can yet hold his own in a 442 in this division, where there is little time and space to deliver the killer pass. Reminds me of Alex Song, who looked great for us in his first few games, but then the oppo worked out that they needed to hassle him, and he became far less effective. As with Shelvey, he maybe needs the time and space afforded more in the PL to show off his undoubted talent. Once Burton got injured, there was little opportunity to revert to 451 with JJ in the starting line-up. He has not been cold-shouldered: circumstances have simply dictated that he has ONLY made 27 appearances this season...
I imagine Parky is hurting as much as any of us about this, but is also realistic enough to know that it is probably in the best interests of the Club as well as Jonjo.
When Bent was sold the full figure was announced, even though that was a stream of payments like you say
Liverpool Forum
Weegie for the next Charlton manager - got my vote
Good luck to the lad ... but will his lack of pace and poor heading ability limit just how good he can be? Granted he is good for 18, but that doesn't matter when you cross the touchline. They don't award bonus points for being younger than everyone else. The expectation is that you improve with time ... and that lack of pace might prove costly.
I hope I'm wrong.
Anyway, we'll watch his progress with interest ... but don't underestimate the culture shock of an Essex teenager (do they still use that word?) going to Liverpool. My guess is that he'll be back down South (QPR?) within two years.
hi Heather, no need to be sorry and I'm more than happy for you to disagree with me, not for the first time either !! I can see your point but for a lot of the time this season we have played two defensive midfielders together and as a consequence have failed to create enough chances. Added to that Semedo and Racon have just two league goals between them in nearly eighty games. I'm not saying JJ should have started every game but there have been numerous occasions where he could have replaced Racon and been much, much more effective offensively. Semedo would have afforded the protection needed and with Bailey tucking in a lot from the left we wouldn't have been seriously exposed in midfield.
As for 'I imagine Parky is hurting as much as any of us about this' - LOL. As much perhaps as when we got humiliated 4-0 at Millwall and he was hurting more than anyone. Why would he be hurting, he hasn't been playing JJ anyway so why is he even bothered about it.
don't know about upsetting uncle but I don't know where to start with that post !!
Feel free
quite a big one given he won't be playing!
Never going to be really quick, but only the very best in the world have very few weaknesses to their game.
Heading? He'll improve. Look at Rooney this season, started scoring more goals with his head. That's an improvement many people probably never thought he'd make.
I can see him slowly developing, and at times really pushing on suddenly. James Milner was another midfielder that came through at 16, he's really pushed on this season, Lampard didn't used to be an England regular until a few years at Chelsea, and Gareth Barry wasn't a regular in the England squad until his late 20s. I'm sure there will be a few Liverpool fans that write him off after a few bad games, I mean there are even Charlton fans saying he's overrated (not you, that's not what you've said), but then he'll probably surprise them and take his game up another level or two as some players do. Parker the best (only?) example of a player doing that with us.
Yes actually i do. And if he doesn't get injured i bet you it will be between 15 and 20 games at least
Good luck Jonjo, unfortunately we dont have any weight any more, for a breif time we were a half decent force in the English game, sadly no more...
Good luck Jonjo, shame we didnt see more of you, and shame you couldnt become our lynch pin in our midfield while you were here...
'Alan Simonsen played for us many years ago and at times looked ordinary in division 2 partly because the likes of dear old Martin Robinson (a player I admired by the way) and others were not good enough to appreciate what he was trying to do.
I'm not suggesting Jonjo is on a par with a European footballer of the year (although hopefully one day he may be) but the point stands that his footballing intelligence was better than the players around him and so he too would look ordinary at times.'
Spot kin on, last time I see Jonjo play (against Carlisle i think) we pinged 60 yard cross field ball up top to him and expected him to bring it down and take them on or flick it on too.....
His performance against Leyton Orient away was brilliant for me, even though he should have been sent off after 10 secs.....oops, theres another argument done to death already!!!
Good Luck, wish you well.
I'm a bit gutted it's come so soon, but this kind of move was always going to happen.
Like most on here, it wasn't unexpected but would have liked a bigger upfront fee and better timing. We'll probably never know the full details.
A lot will depend on how their takeover goes, if it goes at all, and on who they bring in/sell over the summer.
They have got a lot of excellent midfielders already there so it will be a crowded squad for him to succeed from although it will do him a massive favor if Gerrard does go in the summer.
Going out on loan to a Premiership side like Brum/West Ham might be a good move for him to get some experience before being thrown into the cauldron of Anfield as a first-teamer.
I don't see much value in him going to the CCC for first-team action, he needs to learn about the more cultured style of the EPL rather than watch the ball fly about in the sky like it does in the lower tiers.
I reckon that Shelvey will be fantastic in the EPL because he will get more time on the ball and be able to play his natural game.
Good luck jonjo! And here's to the next bunch of 'charlton wonderkids' la la la la la la..
Jonjo Shelvey, Liverpool wonderkid! (hurts to write that)
I expect him to be involved next season for them and hope for his sake Rafa is not
However, I do think this is possibly the worst possible time to announce this, just as we are reaching the crucial part of the season...