Response from FSF
...................................
I have been asked to reply to your email to the Football Supporters' Federation about the late change of this fixture. The simple, but depressing, answer is that there is very little that can be done about it at this late stage except, as you have done, complain to as many quarters as possible. It is however a matter which has concerned the FSF for years and been something on which we have repetitively made representation to the Leagues.
Most recently, at the 2008 Fans' Parliament, the following motion was passed :
"In negotiating future tv contracts FSF calls upon all football authorities
to insert a requirement for more rigid, and publicly known, advance
notification of changes of scheduled dates and/or kick-off times.
Furthermore, where the TV company fails to meet the contractual deadline, it
will itself be liable to reimburse the validated additional, or
non-refundable, expenses incurred by any fan of the competing teams in
instances where such expenditure was incurred after the known deadline."
Sadly this was too late to prevent the newly negotiated TV contracts being let but at least it gives a basis upon which we continue to badger them.
They will of course not let us see the detail of the existing contracts, citing commercial sensitivity, but we don't want to see the money just what other obligations the TV companies have. We have been advised by the Premier League that there is an understanding that a month's notice will be given of selected games except for the end of season where they wish to choose specific games which may have a bearing on the title or relegation. And generally this is complied with. That of course does not apply to you or in your case and we don't know whether there is a corresponding requirement in the Football League contract.
As far as refunds on rail tickets is concerned, FSF has also made in the past suggestions that where a game is changed the operating company should honour previously bought tickets for the new date. This has not been possible for 2 reasons. Firstly the companies all want to preserve their independence and an across the board agreement would be unlikely. They have also argued that it would be impossible to guarantee that train loadings on the revised date would permit discounted travel.
So what can you do? Well as Charlton will receive a TV fee for the game you can ask them to compensate fans (upon production of evidence of loss) and you can give them a copy of the motion above and ask them to raise it and support it at a League meeting.
Only just caught up with this thread, so apologies for not responding to earlier questions directed at me.
Not much to add now, except that the railway company is perfectly able to waive its own rules if it chooses and the idea that advance fares are "discounted" whereas the real fares are the walk-up ones is so much baloney, as an analysis of the number of people paying the walk-up rate would demonstrate.
Yes, the Fans' Forum received this last night from the FSF also. Although i think the response was a bit longer, but that might have been because I was reading it on a blackberry!
The email we sent was sent to The Football League, CAFC, BRFC, FSF, Football Ombudsmen, The FA and Sky. only the FSF have replied so far.
"Thank you for forwarding me the material about the change of fixture. This topic has been a bone of contention for several years and the agreed practice appears to be normally to refund the ticket price, but not to entertain claims for the lost travel costs.
The responsibility lies with the Football League and the terms of the financial arrangements with Sky TV. I suggest that the way forward is to press home your points to the Football League. The Customer Services department at the Football League in Preston deals with fans who have a complaint.
The IFO may act only after the relevant governing body has dealt with the complaint
PROFESSOR DEREK FRASER
OMBUDSMAN"
Well I am happy (sorry), but I can understand the frustration. The one point I don't think has been made, is the benefit to the clubs of TV exposure outside the apparently miserly extra payment direct from Sky - ie the fact that youngsters who we (and Rovers) want to win over get the chance to see "their" team on TV, and the more TV exposure the more the clubs can look to get from shirt sponsors and ground board advertising when it comes to renegotiating deals etc.
Best bet - book a few days holiday, get some winter sunshine and watch the game in Floyd's with us...
yep good effort from cafc there, credit to mr. largo also for suggesting it to them further to the similar hartlepool situation.
some consolation, but doesn't change the fact i am still annoyed about the fact i (and i imagine potentially 1,000 other cafc fans) will no longer been attending a match which i have been looking forward to for a long time.
Well done to Charlton & GWR - massive raspberry to Sky.
Just phoned CAFC and they advised me to get down to the ticket office to sort it all out, but no rush today, as they won't be dealing with it properly until Monday in any case (and on subsequent days as well of course).
The club has clearly taken this issue seriously and has put in a lot of effort on our behalf, and is continuing to do so, much to its credit. What continues to annoy me is the conduct of the FL, which has tried to shift the blame onto anyone other than itself. On the telephone, the FL basically said that it was down to the clubs, but the FL appears to have been highly economical with the truth. I cannot believe that Sky can't sort out its schedules with the FL sufficiently in advance to prevent this type of incident happening. I haven't got to grips with who took the decision and why, but I do intend to find out.
Think this is a polite way of saying tough s**t
....................................................
Thank you for your email.
It is regrettable to hear that the rescheduling of this match has caused problems for you. It is not the intention of the League to disturb the plans of supporters, particularly when they are travelling away.
In our contract with Sky there is an eight week window for fixture rescheduling although this can be flexible in that changes can be made up to 28 days before. Occasionally the deadline will be even tighter, which is the case with the Bristol Rovers v Charlton match. This is rare however.
The contract with Sky is obviously very important financially to our clubs and in return there has to be a certain level of flexibility with regard to fixture changes.
That is not to say that we ignore the wishes of fans either. We try to accommodate all parties involved where possible but sometimes this can be difficult.
Although you will be able to get a refund for the match tickets if necessary, we realise that train tickets, hotels etc can be more of a problem and we would apologise for the inconvenience caused.
[cite]Posted By: stilladdicted[/cite]In our contract with Sky there is an eight week window for fixture rescheduling although this can be flexible in that changes can be made up to 28 days before.
Well, why didn't Sky and the Football League honour the contract .....?????
Fans' Forum not had a response but did get a reply from the football ombusman who said we can forward our complaint if our complaint with the FL isn't satisfactory.
its a shrug the shoulders and "sorry" but doesn't really help.
good on the club for helping fans but in a way frustrating that the club is spending money, time and resources it doesn't relaly have sorting fans out because of the FL/Sky non-agreement.
Fans' Forum have finally received a response from the Football League:
Dear Suzanne
You are correct to have directed your complaint to The Football League on this issue.
The switching of the Bristol Rovers v Charlton fixture was a short notice selection and clubs are normally given 8 weeks notice of any re-arrangements due to live TV. In addition to this the League tries to keep any short notice selections down to a 4 week notice period.
Due to the number of postponements suffered over the recent period of bad weather however, an already tight schedule has been squeezed further. Sky have had to identify additional slots for live games, one of which is 15th February.
Whilst we greatly sympathise with travelling supporters who have already booked hotels and made travel arrangements, Sky are contracted to cover a certain amount of Football League games and The Football League are contracted to supply the fixtures that Sky select.
We understand from Charlton Athletic that First Great Western have agreed to refund some train tickets, which is good news for those affected.
These short notice changes are rare occurrences and we can only apologise for any inconvenience caused.
Regards
Nick Jones Customer Services Officer The Football League Ltd Email njones@football-league.co.uk www.football-league.co.uk
A chap at the Charlton ticket office who may have been Dave Archer (looked to be in his 50's with not too much hair), said that neither Rovers or Charlton had any say in the matter.
I have been promised full refunds on match and train tickets.
Comments
Why on earth couldn't they have spotted this gap in the diary a couple of months ago?
And why us?
Why not Oldham v Walsall or Yeovil v Gillingham?
What d'you mean, no one would bother watching?
Seriously, apart from perhaps Hudders vs Swindon in the play off positions, it's a pretty sh*t weekend with no big games.
Any chance you could organise a 'Nathan Prior 1st XI' game against Bristol Rovers 'Asbo order' lads?
We could play in the car park under street lamps.
...................................
I have been asked to reply to your email to the Football Supporters' Federation about the late change of this fixture. The simple, but depressing, answer is that there is very little that can be done about it at this late stage except, as you have done, complain to as many quarters as possible. It is however a matter which has concerned the FSF for years and been something on which we have repetitively made representation to the Leagues.
Most recently, at the 2008 Fans' Parliament, the following motion was passed :
"In negotiating future tv contracts FSF calls upon all football authorities
to insert a requirement for more rigid, and publicly known, advance
notification of changes of scheduled dates and/or kick-off times.
Furthermore, where the TV company fails to meet the contractual deadline, it
will itself be liable to reimburse the validated additional, or
non-refundable, expenses incurred by any fan of the competing teams in
instances where such expenditure was incurred after the known deadline."
Sadly this was too late to prevent the newly negotiated TV contracts being let but at least it gives a basis upon which we continue to badger them.
They will of course not let us see the detail of the existing contracts, citing commercial sensitivity, but we don't want to see the money just what other obligations the TV companies have. We have been advised by the Premier League that there is an understanding that a month's notice will be given of selected games except for the end of season where they wish to choose specific games which may have a bearing on the title or relegation. And generally this is complied with. That of course does not apply to you or in your case and we don't know whether there is a corresponding requirement in the Football League contract.
As far as refunds on rail tickets is concerned, FSF has also made in the past suggestions that where a game is changed the operating company should honour previously bought tickets for the new date. This has not been possible for 2 reasons. Firstly the companies all want to preserve their independence and an across the board agreement would be unlikely. They have also argued that it would be impossible to guarantee that train loadings on the revised date would permit discounted travel.
So what can you do? Well as Charlton will receive a TV fee for the game you can ask them to compensate fans (upon production of evidence of loss) and you can give them a copy of the motion above and ask them to raise it and support it at a League meeting.
Ian Todd
Not much to add now, except that the railway company is perfectly able to waive its own rules if it chooses and the idea that advance fares are "discounted" whereas the real fares are the walk-up ones is so much baloney, as an analysis of the number of people paying the walk-up rate would demonstrate.
The email we sent was sent to The Football League, CAFC, BRFC, FSF, Football Ombudsmen, The FA and Sky. only the FSF have replied so far.
"Thank you for forwarding me the material about the change of fixture. This topic has been a bone of contention for several years and the agreed practice appears to be normally to refund the ticket price, but not to entertain claims for the lost travel costs.
The responsibility lies with the Football League and the terms of the financial arrangements with Sky TV. I suggest that the way forward is to press home your points to the Football League. The Customer Services department at the Football League in Preston deals with fans who have a complaint.
The IFO may act only after the relevant governing body has dealt with the complaint
PROFESSOR DEREK FRASER
OMBUDSMAN"
Best bet - book a few days holiday, get some winter sunshine and watch the game in Floyd's with us...
What a good idea!
Every cloud has a silver lining,
some consolation, but doesn't change the fact i am still annoyed about the fact i (and i imagine potentially 1,000 other cafc fans) will no longer been attending a match which i have been looking forward to for a long time.
Just phoned CAFC and they advised me to get down to the ticket office to sort it all out, but no rush today, as they won't be dealing with it properly until Monday in any case (and on subsequent days as well of course).
Thanks MrLargo and all concerned.
....................................................
Thank you for your email.
It is regrettable to hear that the rescheduling of this match has caused problems for you. It is not the intention of the League to disturb the plans of supporters, particularly when they are travelling away.
In our contract with Sky there is an eight week window for fixture rescheduling although this can be flexible in that changes can be made up to 28 days before. Occasionally the deadline will be even tighter, which is the case with the Bristol Rovers v Charlton match. This is rare however.
The contract with Sky is obviously very important financially to our clubs and in return there has to be a certain level of flexibility with regard to fixture changes.
That is not to say that we ignore the wishes of fans either. We try to accommodate all parties involved where possible but sometimes this can be difficult.
Although you will be able to get a refund for the match tickets if necessary, we realise that train tickets, hotels etc can be more of a problem and we would apologise for the inconvenience caused.
Regards
Nick Jones
Customer Services Officer
The Football League Ltd
Email njones@football-league.co.uk
www.football-league.co.uk
"Sorry, not really anything we can do: Blame Sky".
Well, why didn't Sky and the Football League honour the contract .....?????
Couldn't give a sh*t, could they?
its a shrug the shoulders and "sorry" but doesn't really help.
good on the club for helping fans but in a way frustrating that the club is spending money, time and resources it doesn't relaly have sorting fans out because of the FL/Sky non-agreement.
BOO
Dear Suzanne
You are correct to have directed your complaint to The Football League on this issue.
The switching of the Bristol Rovers v Charlton fixture was a short notice selection and clubs are normally given 8 weeks notice of any re-arrangements due to live TV. In addition to this the League tries to keep any short notice selections down to a 4 week notice period.
Due to the number of postponements suffered over the recent period of bad weather however, an already tight schedule has been squeezed further. Sky have had to identify additional slots for live games, one of which is 15th February.
Whilst we greatly sympathise with travelling supporters who have already booked hotels and made travel arrangements, Sky are contracted to cover a certain amount of Football League games and The Football League are contracted to supply the fixtures that Sky select.
We understand from Charlton Athletic that First Great Western have agreed to refund some train tickets, which is good news for those affected.
These short notice changes are rare occurrences and we can only apologise for any inconvenience caused.
Regards
Nick Jones
Customer Services Officer
The Football League Ltd
Email njones@football-league.co.uk
www.football-league.co.uk
I have been promised full refunds on match and train tickets.
That was our new left midfielder being shown around!