[cite]Posted By: Addickjohn[/cite]Right, first of all, I can say I was there so my comments are based on first hand knowledge. I live in the midlands so tend to restrict seeing charlton to away games. In my view, away games gives you the chance to see the real character of a team - and it is away performances that will decide whether or not we go up. The added adavntage of being at Hereford yesterday was I got to stand and we were right near the touchline. From that close up point of view it was obvious to me that there is no teamwork and no fight among the players. These are effectively reserve players who should be working their b****cks off to get in the first team - I didn't see any of that - team spirit was non existent. To me it all points in one direction - PARKY!!.. He has no respect from the players, none from the fans - the performance was a disgrace. If we'd scored from the pen it would simply have papered over the shambles, much as saturday's scoreline did I imagine. The man must go - simple as - and for all those who say we can't afford to let him go - how can we afford to keep him? As it is, I predict that we will be in the bottom half of the table after 10 games at which point he will go - hopefully on 1st October, which would be a great birthday present for me.
Good post which I think sums up the situation as it sadly is.
Certainly was fight from the players on Saturday, big problem is we lack strength in depth. Wagstaff, Spring and Stavrinou are nowhere near as good as Sam, Racon and Semedo. Small I haven't seen much of, just odd bits in pre-season, but I imagine he offers very different things than Bailey does.
We know about our problems up front, our three quick strikers are very average and none of them have a good all round game or even stand out through their work rate (remember Luke Varney?). Gray is still seriously lacking fitness.
In defence it seems Solly did fairly well, Semedo and Youga aren't playing in their best positions and while Basey is a more intelligent and reliable player than Youga, he struggles against anyone with pace and a bit of an idea how to use it.
Were Solly, Wagstaff, Basey and Stavrinou lazy? As I said I wasn't there last night, but whenever I've seen those four, they want to do well for us and work hard. They want to win, they want to get into the team. Maybe they don't stand out because apart from Basey none of them are particularly big or strong, but they all come across to me as the types of player that work hard. From what I've seen of the 11 that played last night, it's more likely Gray and McLeod didn't work hard enough, finish their chances or create much, rather than a lack of effort from the midfield and defence. We only conceded in extra time.
Just seems more likely to me we lacked goalscorers and players to create chances, but it's not a surprise when we played that midfield. Spring isn't going to do that job, Stavrinou is a defensive player, Wagstaff has shown in the past he's not good enough and like I said I don't know much about Small (though we've only given him a non-contract, which shows Parky isn't convinced just yet).
So if there are moaners verses rose tinted what are the objective facts? Games lost and won, goals scored, points achieved, league position and financial stability?
The moaners (I suppose i am one of these) say losing to Hereford and getting relegated is depressing chite, the rose tinted see those events as good because we can concentrate on a league which now involves interesting new grounds to visit, quaint terracing, and communing with your mates which is what being Charlton is essentially about.
I wonder if there is anything that we all agree on.
for what it is worth, I'll throw my twopenneth in ( yes, I was there ....)
defence pretty solid and Semedo is a vey capable cenrtre-half - I thought Stav was our MOM and actually thought Spring had quite a good game in the defensive midfielder role. BUT, if we are going to plAY 4-4-2 then the wingers have to get to the byeline and get crosses in. Wade Small is (relatively) new the the club s I'll excuse him, but Wagstaff !!!!! - I know he is a "young lad" and "learning is trade" but he is too lightweight and needs to learn how to cross a ball. Perhaps if he wore the traditional black footbll boots and not things that resemeble clowns shoes then he may just improve.
Strikers ??? do we have any ?? Andy Gray may hold the ball up well but had 3 shot all night. The first he had his back to goal, turned and shot well wide. The seecond was his penalty which the keeper made a half decent save and his third shot at goal was after just before the end of extra time.........some 2 hours into the game ! McLoed made some decent runs and lookd lively but never had the ball at his feet in front of goal. Fleetwood & Burton looked the more likely to score.
All in all, a fair performance from two lower league teams - a draw was a fair result but they had what counted most - a finisher when someone finally got a cross in.
[cite]Posted By: Addickjohn[/cite]Right, first of all, I can say I was there so my comments are based on first hand knowledge. I live in the midlands so tend to restrict seeing charlton to away games. In my view, away games gives you the chance to see the real character of a team - and it is away performances that will decide whether or not we go up. The added adavntage of being at Hereford yesterday was I got to stand and we were right near the touchline. From that close up point of view it was obvious to me that there is no teamwork and no fight among the players. These are effectively reserve players who should be working their b****cks off to get in the first team - I didn't see any of that - team spirit was non existent. To me it all points in one direction - PARKY!!.. He has no respect from the players, none from the fans - the performance was a disgrace. If we'd scored from the pen it would simply have papered over the shambles, much as saturday's scoreline did I imagine. The man must go - simple as - and for all those who say we can't afford to let him go - how can we afford to keep him? As it is, I predict that we will be in the bottom half of the table after 10 games at which point he will go - hopefully on 1st October, which would be a great birthday present for me.
We played very well first half saturday actually, but just sat back too much in the 2nd half, which we'll learn not to do. Last night there were 8 changes from Saturday so i don't really think its fait to judge how our league season might go based on a meaningless cup game away to Hereford.
Maybe I should explain a little about what I meant in my earlier post. I have played a lot of team sports and, as you will all know, the best team doesn't always win. The early Curbs team containing the likes of Kins and Robinson would make up for a lack of skill by cajoling others, fighting for the team, shouting, encouraging etc. - There was nothing like that last night - we had some young players yes, and they need to be helped along. The only one who showed any passion was Rob Elliott.
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]As I said on the other thread a virtual reserve team held a team relegated from the division we are now in for more than 90 minutes and could have won had Gray taken his chance or converted the penalty.
thoguht we scrapped the reserve team len. does that make them all 1st team squad members? ;-)
you mention if gray had scored his pen.......
i'm sure the hereford fans that had seen their team lose their previous 7 home games (in the division we are now in), are saying that if the 2 that hit the woodwork had gone in they wouldn't have needed extra time.
[cite]Posted By: seth plum[/cite]So if there are moaners verses rose tinted what are the objective facts? Games lost and won, goals scored, points achieved, league position and financial stability?
The moaners (I suppose i am one of these) say losing to Hereford and getting relegated is depressing chite, the rose tinted see those events as good because we can concentrate on a league which now involves interesting new grounds to visit, quaint terracing, and communing with your mates which is what being Charlton is essentially about.
I wonder if there is anything that we all agree on.
We don't have to agree Seth, otherwise they'd be no interesting exchange of opinion.
Might just as well give up the forum and only read the OS.
[quote][cite]Posted By: The Red Robin[/cite][quote] We played very well first half saturday actually, but just sat back too much in the 2nd half, which we'll learn not to do.[/quote]
We''ll learn not to sit back? Why? We did it all last season, albeit with a different defensive lineup (apart from Youga). We can't wait for them to learn, Parky needs to drill it into them, and shout from the touchline if they offend!
I think AddickJohn has noticed a problem running through the whole squad. There are very few players who bring the game to the opposition, or challenge them physically in each and every department. Of the whole team possibly only Bailey does this, chases down and if he tackles comes out with the ball and the opposing player on the floor; I know he gives the odd penalty away but it always seems to be in Youga's channel/territory. I'm pleased on the signings of Dailly and Richardson, but I believe we need at least two more 90 minute competitive players: One at left back and one more in midfield, and we wouldn't go wrong with getting another player at center half.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]cheers Golfie, seems a fair summary.
just need to point out that on the way home he had to dump his contacts for his glasses as he said they were playing up and he couldn't see properly hence the rose-tinted match summary.
Positives - Solly as mentioned before, looked like a very commited determined and skilful youngster and linked up well.
Small - in the first half was our main attacking option took on players and got intio good positions, well worth a contract
Elliott - a couple of brilliant saves and always ready to make quick clearances
Gray - actually looked better , quicker and more confident then last season some good touches when under pressure,
Fleetwood - looked hungry and lively
Wagstaff - has a lot to learn and was out of position but still got a lot of the ball , ran hard and shows promise
Negatives - generally the team were unsure of themselves, and seemed to rely on Spring for distribution which was uninspiring and often back to the goalie.
Izale - was pretty crap really
we seem to have forwards who can hold up the ball , ie dion and andy gray but noone with hunger running into positions with a taste for goal.
[cite]Posted By: seth plum[/cite]So if there are moaners verses rose tinted what are the objective facts? Games lost and won, goals scored, points achieved, league position and financial stability?
The moaners (I suppose i am one of these) say losing to Hereford and getting relegated is depressing chite, the rose tinted see those events as good because we can concentrate on a league which now involves interesting new grounds to visit, quaint terracing, and communing with your mates which is what being Charlton is essentially about.
I wonder if there is anything that we all agree on.
I don't think anyone is saying that losing to a lower division side in the Carling Cup is good, just that it's hardly unexpected, especially given that the circumstances surrounding the game meant putting out a weakened team was pretty much inevitable. A win would have been nice, and if our strikers had taken their chances then we might've got it, but going into "We're Doomed! DOOMED I TELL YOU!" mode doesn't really help anybody. I feel a bit sorry for the poor sods who trekked all that way, but then that's the chances you take following Charlton away in the cup.
[cite]Posted By: aliwibble[/cite]I don't think anyone is saying that losing to a lower division side in the Carling Cup is good, just that it's hardly unexpected, especially given that the circumstances surrounding the game meant putting out a weakened team was pretty much inevitable. A win would have been nice, and if our strikers had taken their chances then we might've got it, but going into "We're Doomed! DOOMED I TELL YOU!" mode doesn't really help anybody. I feel a bit sorry for the poor sods who trekked all that way, but then that's the chances you take following Charlton away in the cup.
Well said.
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]no Waggy played on the right all game.
I think the friendly with Bournemouth the other Saturday (both teams put out strong sides) was about the only time I have seen us dominate a team from a lower division for 90 minutes. We actually looked like a side from a higher division.
In almost every cup game since the 80's that has never happened.
I know the 'lets concentrate on the league' statement sounds like a broken record and it does piss the fans off to see us going out the cup in the early rounds to a lower league side again, but this season is a definite must for prioritising promotion, we cant afford to stay in this division too long and if we're trying to preserve first choice players for the league (resting, nursing injuries, etc), then so be it. If we play youngsters & reserves in the cup, at least they will gain vital match experience, albeit potential downsides (i.e. lack of direction perhaps). What if the likes of shelvey/racon/sam had played last night and picked up injuries making them doubtful for say, the next 2/3 league games? Having your strongest side available for the league is more important this season imo.
The support did seem really polarised at the end of the match , some supporters were happy to clap the likes of Solly, Small, Stavinou, Elliott, Basey, Wagstaff who obviosly did put in a lot of effort , othere were singing , ' we are shit and we know we are' which supporters do you feel were more encouraging to our young players ???
I think the issue here is the balance of the team/squad, especially the strikers who should be able to compete at this level, injuries aside........ to quote myself
What is unreasonable about that, I would expect a striker to score, according to there ability,are these strikers so poor that the level below them they cannot score!, if so why are they still playing for the club. Gray's fitness aside , these strikers should be a handful against a team like Hereford, and a lot more than that surely. Does the manager not have a crucial role here to motivate the players, especially strikers at least the clubs I have been involved with!.
I do not think we are doomed, but we need some leadership that is for sure.
[cite]Posted By: Shrew[/cite]The support did seem really polarised at the end of the match , some supporters were happy to clap the likes of Solly, Small, Stavinou, Elliott, Basey, Wagstaff who obviosly did put in a lot of effort , othere were singing , ' we are shit and we know we are' which supporters do you feel were more encouraging to our young players ???
[cite]Posted By: Shrew[/cite]The support did seem really polarised at the end of the match , some supporters were happy to clap the likes of Solly, Small, Stavinou, Elliott, Basey, Wagstaff who obviosly did put in a lot of effort , othere were singing , ' we are shit and we know we are' which supporters do you feel were more encouraging to our young players ???
[cite]Posted By: ken from bexley[/cite]What is unreasonable about that, I would expect a striker to score, according to there ability,are these strikers so poor that the level below them they cannot score!, if so why are they still playing for the club.
Because Pards blew so much cash on them (and their wages) that we can't afford anyone better til we offload at least one of them.
Just seen an amusing quote from the Mailing List:
Yes, it's OK playing our strikers in these lesser competitions, but I'm glad our goalscorers were rested/protected for the league.
Comments
Good post which I think sums up the situation as it sadly is.
Tel, we have mainly 2 groups on here .....Moaners and Rose Tinted.
The Moaners have a go at the Rose Tinted.
And the Rose Tinted dig out the Moaners.
It has ever been thus.
It's just two different ways of seeing the same thing. And that's what makes a forum!
We know about our problems up front, our three quick strikers are very average and none of them have a good all round game or even stand out through their work rate (remember Luke Varney?). Gray is still seriously lacking fitness.
In defence it seems Solly did fairly well, Semedo and Youga aren't playing in their best positions and while Basey is a more intelligent and reliable player than Youga, he struggles against anyone with pace and a bit of an idea how to use it.
Were Solly, Wagstaff, Basey and Stavrinou lazy? As I said I wasn't there last night, but whenever I've seen those four, they want to do well for us and work hard. They want to win, they want to get into the team. Maybe they don't stand out because apart from Basey none of them are particularly big or strong, but they all come across to me as the types of player that work hard. From what I've seen of the 11 that played last night, it's more likely Gray and McLeod didn't work hard enough, finish their chances or create much, rather than a lack of effort from the midfield and defence. We only conceded in extra time.
Just seems more likely to me we lacked goalscorers and players to create chances, but it's not a surprise when we played that midfield. Spring isn't going to do that job, Stavrinou is a defensive player, Wagstaff has shown in the past he's not good enough and like I said I don't know much about Small (though we've only given him a non-contract, which shows Parky isn't convinced just yet).
The moaners (I suppose i am one of these) say losing to Hereford and getting relegated is depressing chite, the rose tinted see those events as good because we can concentrate on a league which now involves interesting new grounds to visit, quaint terracing, and communing with your mates which is what being Charlton is essentially about.
I wonder if there is anything that we all agree on.
defence pretty solid and Semedo is a vey capable cenrtre-half - I thought Stav was our MOM and actually thought Spring had quite a good game in the defensive midfielder role. BUT, if we are going to plAY 4-4-2 then the wingers have to get to the byeline and get crosses in. Wade Small is (relatively) new the the club s I'll excuse him, but Wagstaff !!!!! - I know he is a "young lad" and "learning is trade" but he is too lightweight and needs to learn how to cross a ball. Perhaps if he wore the traditional black footbll boots and not things that resemeble clowns shoes then he may just improve.
Strikers ??? do we have any ?? Andy Gray may hold the ball up well but had 3 shot all night. The first he had his back to goal, turned and shot well wide. The seecond was his penalty which the keeper made a half decent save and his third shot at goal was after just before the end of extra time.........some 2 hours into the game ! McLoed made some decent runs and lookd lively but never had the ball at his feet in front of goal. Fleetwood & Burton looked the more likely to score.
All in all, a fair performance from two lower league teams - a draw was a fair result but they had what counted most - a finisher when someone finally got a cross in.
We played very well first half saturday actually, but just sat back too much in the 2nd half, which we'll learn not to do. Last night there were 8 changes from Saturday so i don't really think its fait to judge how our league season might go based on a meaningless cup game away to Hereford.
thoguht we scrapped the reserve team len. does that make them all 1st team squad members? ;-)
you mention if gray had scored his pen.......
i'm sure the hereford fans that had seen their team lose their previous 7 home games (in the division we are now in), are saying that if the 2 that hit the woodwork had gone in they wouldn't have needed extra time.
We don't have to agree Seth, otherwise they'd be no interesting exchange of opinion.
Might just as well give up the forum and only read the OS.
;o)
We played very well first half saturday actually, but just sat back too much in the 2nd half, which we'll learn not to do.[/quote]
We''ll learn not to sit back? Why? We did it all last season, albeit with a different defensive lineup (apart from Youga). We can't wait for them to learn, Parky needs to drill it into them, and shout from the touchline if they offend!
just need to point out that on the way home he had to dump his contacts for his glasses as he said they were playing up and he couldn't see properly hence the rose-tinted match summary.
Positives - Solly as mentioned before, looked like a very commited determined and skilful youngster and linked up well.
Small - in the first half was our main attacking option took on players and got intio good positions, well worth a contract
Elliott - a couple of brilliant saves and always ready to make quick clearances
Gray - actually looked better , quicker and more confident then last season some good touches when under pressure,
Fleetwood - looked hungry and lively
Wagstaff - has a lot to learn and was out of position but still got a lot of the ball , ran hard and shows promise
Negatives - generally the team were unsure of themselves, and seemed to rely on Spring for distribution which was uninspiring and often back to the goalie.
Izale - was pretty crap really
we seem to have forwards who can hold up the ball , ie dion and andy gray but noone with hunger running into positions with a taste for goal.
I thought Wagstaff was playing right midfield/right wing, surely that's his best position? Or was he moved to the left with Small on the right?
no Waggy played on the right all game.
Thought so, thanks.
In almost every cup game since the 80's that has never happened.
than we did against Hereford last night .... ?
So was Richardson, LLLLera and Dailly.
Dicko was on international duty.
8 players came in to start. 2 players played in a different postion to where they play now.
I would expect the side that beat Wycombe to start on Saturday, if injuries permit.
What is unreasonable about that, I would expect a striker to score, according to there ability,are these strikers so poor that the level below them they cannot score!, if so why are they still playing for the club. Gray's fitness aside , these strikers should be a handful against a team like Hereford, and a lot more than that surely. Does the manager not have a crucial role here to motivate the players, especially strikers at least the clubs I have been involved with!.
I do not think we are doomed, but we need some leadership that is for sure.
2nd game of a season ? that's pathetic.
it was, nearly as pathetic as the performance.
Just seen an amusing quote from the Mailing List: It's funny because it's true.