In any case, even a new manager can't just buy a new team off the peg - it has to be grafted on to the best of what's already there and given time to evolve.
Pards not surprisingly, hasn't been able to do it yet - and even if there was to be a new manager, we would have unrealistic expectation if we thought he could wave a magic wand.
Pards is halfway through doing the job as he sees it.
Let's give him the time to do the second half.
After all, despite the moaning supporters, they gave him the time he needed at West Ham - and he repaid them with promotion, an FA Cup final and 9th place Prem finish.
Would you be happy if that was all we had to look forward to in the next 2 or 3 years?
[quote][cite]Posted By: Reamsofverse[/cite]Errrr!!! think you'll find that they both took us up to the top flight for the first time in 29 years in 1986 and I know what he meant to Lennie and vive versa, still big friends and met up regularly when Lennie went to Cardiff where Eddie managed in the 90's and still lives.
Before he did leave however I got the full set of sunley sponsored shirts that the Addicks once wore and they were proudly worn by the Goullbourne football club here in Wrexham for 2 seasons in the mid 80's.
I don't let insults bother me even if they do come from the village idiot![/quote]
come the end of the season when we haven't been promoted us pessimists can tell the optimists we told you so , just like last season unfortunately..... then the optimists after we got relegated started sprouting off about how exciting it would be in the chumpionship and how great it'll be going to see games where charlton should win .....i'm still waiting.....
but i'd luv it , really luv it if we were to be proved wrong ;-)
[cite]Posted By: Reamsofverse[/cite]Marcus Bent mainly amongst others, don't rate him but he's managed to raise his game away from the Valley and Pardew, we all know that once he gets a contract he'll go back to his same old self but while he's proving a point to Wigan he is also proving one to Pardew.
I don't cop out by the way and I don't see this as an argument it's a personal opinion, without them these boards would not exist.
Pardew has to realise that he is not at West Ham now where he had 2 Argentinian internationals walking through the door, at the Valley it's players from Dulwich and Milton Keynes and if he is not going to play them fine, but at least go out and loan/buy a striker who is better than Iwelumo in a 4-5-1 formation if he insists on playing it.
I was doing cartwheels when Pardew came in but he is not living up to my expectations and he clearly thinks that he has a better team at his disposal than what they really are, so the first thing he needs to do is take off the rose tinted glasses and see things for what they really are and maybe once that is done he may start seeing things in the same way as the restless natives do down at the Valley.
He is not the same Alan Pardew that we knew before he joined us IMHO
I am struggling to believe what I'm reading.
Firstly, Marcus Bent was a useless apology for a forward under three managers before Pardew took over. Bent himself has alluded to his "off the field" issues getting in the way last year and putting that behind him (that was before he left us). He had returned to some sort of form before he left us as well by the way.
Pardew was unhappy about the two Argentinians being parachuted in to West Ham, rarely played Tevez and ever more rarely played Mascherano so I can't see your point here at all.
If you are looking for his weakness, I believe it was in getting too close to certain players, and being more mates with rather than the boss of them. I think that he has tried to stamp this out but I do wonder if we are seeing this again in some of his team selections. His motivational style seems to be more carrot than stick. Perhaps too much maybe.
Pardew has a successful record at this level of getting teams into play off finals. It is hard to think of other potential managers who would be likely to come/are available that are the equal of him, let alone his superior. (No I don't think Billy Davies would be one).
Lets just face facts guys, we've had a shitty Xmas run and it damn well sucks! I'm sure that Pards will be working hard to turn things up again in the new year. Lets just face the West Brom game with a "one off" mentality. If we get stuffed great, cos we can concentrate on the league..:-). If we win, well lets hope for th Gunners at home!
4-5-1 at home to a team bottom of the league??? Baffling team selections and tactics??? Horrific transfers in and some huge wastes of money??? Yet some people still support Pardew? Some people need a reality check.
As for who should be next manager, theres loads of quality candidates out there. Off the top of my head for ideal candidates to replace Alan Partridge.
Venables
Hoddle
Keegan
Jol
Billy Davies
Lawrie Sanchez
Graeme Souness
Joe Royle
Firstly how people can lay the blame at Parkinson's door really baffles me - who actually knows the ins and outs of the way him and Pardew work to an extent where they can judge that it's his fault?
Secondly, yes it's been a pretty terrible Christmas period but knee jerk sackings of the manager are a foolish way of dealing with runs like that. Pards has had to completely rebuild a squad over the summer, I'm not saying I agree with all of his signings, or indeed his tactics but definitely think he should be given more than one transfer window to get this huge task right....especially when no-one can suggest anyone better for the job (other than CS87 who seems to think we could lure Wenger if we so desired!).
Thirdly, I can see that the 'pessimists' are already salivating at the opportunity to throw out more unwarranted 'I told you so's. It's all so easy to predict the worst but 'be happy to be proved wrong' isn't it? It's a win-win. Boring though.
Fourthly, blaming Pardew for Bent's attitude is clutching at straws. Bent's moved clubs more times than a Big Brother contestant on a night out - why do you think that is? Probably because his attitude stinks and managers can never get the best out of him.
I'm not of the 'everything's fine' persuasion. It's not. But there's so many on here who seem to revel in our failure or are completely reactionary after every game we don't win and want to debate who we can replace Pardew with or how we should never have gotten rid of Curbishley (not that we would have had a say in that by the end of last season anyway) or move from definite promotion when we win to considering League One when we lose. It reads more and more like a Tottenham message board by the week........
[cite]Posted By: PassItToLeaburn[/cite]This thread is depressing!
Firstly how people can lay the blame at Parkinson's door really baffles me - who actually knows the ins and outs of the way him and Pardew work to an extent where they can judge that it's his fault?
Secondly, yes it's been a pretty terrible Christmas period but knee jerk sackings of the manager are a foolish way of dealing with runs like that. Pards has had to completely rebuild a squad over the summer, I'm not saying I agree with all of his signings, or indeed his tactics but definitely think he should be given more than one transfer window to get this huge task right....especially when no-one can suggest anyone better for the job (other than CS87 who seems to think we could lure Wenger if we so desired!).
Thirdly, I can see that the 'pessimists' are already salivating at the opportunity to throw out more unwarranted 'I told you so's. It's all so easy to predict the worst but 'be happy to be proved wrong' isn't it? It's a win-win. Boring though.
Fourthly, blaming Pardew for Bent's attitude is clutching at straws. Bent's moved clubs more times than a Big Brother contestant on a night out - why do you think that is? Probably because his attitude stinks and managers can never get the best out of him.
I'm not of the 'everything's fine' persuasion. It's not. But there's so many on here who seem to revel in our failure or are completely reactionary after every game we don't win and want to debate who we can replace Pardew with or how we should never have gotten rid of Curbishley (not that we would have had a say in that by the end of last season anyway) or move from definite promotion when we win to considering League One when we lose. It reads more and more like a Tottenham message board by the week........
I distinctly remember a lot of charlton fans giving us stick because we were not impressed with pardew in the championship days. Plently of pardooooooooo aaaahhhhggggtttttttt calls going on at our place at the time. The words pot kettle & black spring to mind here.
We were being served up absolute dross for the majority of the time in the championship and were very very lucky to get promoted. Had we not been promoted the season we did, we could easily have ended up like forrest/leeds as we were in £30m of debt and the parachute payments were about to stop.
However, pardew had assembled a good squad from the championship days, and one that has gone on to make us a fair bit of profit. The problem when in the championship, in my opinion, was in pardews lact of tactical ability to break teams down that put 10 men behind the ball when coming to the boleyn. I can't say I have seen too much of your games, but is that the same as what is going on at the valley?
I personally don't think pardew is as good as he thinks he is. There is no denying he has his moments as a manager, but this tends to be when his team are the plucky underdogs (i.e. our first season in the prem). You are currently a big sclap to a lot of championship teams and this is when pardew struggles to get results.
My opinion is it would be a mistake to sack him at this stage of the season though. Your still in with a very good shout of going up.
[cite]Posted By: Mortain[/cite]I distinctly remember a lot of charlton fans giving us stick because we were not impressed with pardew in the championship days. Plently of pardooooooooo aaaahhhhggggtttttttt calls going on at our place at the time. The words pot kettle & black spring to mind here.
We were being served up absolute dross for the majority of the time in the championship and were very very lucky to get promoted. Had we not been promoted the season we did, we could easily have ended up like forrest/leeds as we were in £30m of debt and the parachute payments were about to stop.
However, pardew had assembled a good squad from the championship days, and one that has gone on to make us a fair bit of profit.
The problem when in the championship, in my opinion, was in pardews lact of tactical ability to break teams down that put 10 men behind the ball when coming to the boleyn. I can't say I have seen too much of your games, but is that the same as what is going on at the valley?
I personally don't think pardew is as good as he thinks he is.
There is no denying he has his moments as a manager, but this tends to be when his team are the plucky underdogs (i.e. our first season in the prem). You are currently a big sclap to a lot of championship teams and this is when pardew struggles to get results.
My opinion is it would be a mistake to sack him at this stage of the season though. Your still in with a very good shout of going up.
It's a really good shout Mortain, I make you pretty much spot on - really reminds me of the season Pardew was in charge of West Ham in the Championship.
As you say we seem to struggle most when the onus is on us to break teams down and I actually think he's compiled a pretty decent squad of players and it is his tactics in attacking teams who come to The Valley to defend that are letting us down the most.
That said we have a crippling injury list at the moment and very few players that were at the club as long as 6 months ago - (think about moving jobs yourself - it always takes a little while to settle in, it's possible to do it straight away if you're slotting in to an already settled team but none of our players have had that luxury, they're still getting to know each other and learning how best to work together). Some of the performances recently can't be excused by the turnaround, the injury list or anything else but as an overall start to the season against expectations I don't think it's too bad.
I think Pardew needs until at least this time next year to have been given a fair crack, it gives him a chance to have a shot at promotion with a newly assembled squad this year and if that doesn't work out then next summer to refine it (as West Brom have done this year - who I'm convinced will be clear winners of the league this year). I think a lot of people are really underestimating the rebuilding job that's been done in a very short space of time, someone posted up the squad list from this time last year just before Christmas and I think we could pick about 3 names that would still make the 16 man squad for a matchday this season - that's a huge change. As I said, some of the performances recently have been inexcusable and little of what we've seen at home has been great but bearing in mind the transition we're in then if I'd been offered fifth place and 7 points from the automatic spots after 26 games during pre-season then I'd have taken it.
It's all so easy to predict the worst but 'be happy to be proved wrong' isn't it? It's a win-win. Boring though.
i'm afraid the pessimists have called it right so far since i've been on this site and i'm sure us pessimists say it how we see it maybe not thru the red and white tinted glasses of some...
[cite]Posted By: PassItToLeaburn[/cite] bearing in mind the transition we're in then if I'd been offered fifth place and 7 points from the automatic spots after 26 games during pre-season then I'd have taken it.
totally agree with that but the reasonable start we had and the poor opposition of this league got most peoples hopes up, myself included , and the recent poor performances don't bode well for the rest of the season, it's the hope that kills ya!
in the ground tho our support has got to improve but we're unfortunately, as a crowd , a quiet bunch and all the passionate fans(almost all on here would consider themselves vocally passionate for the team) are all split up around the ground..... bring back the terraces
How have the pessimists been proved right so far, or are you still referring to what you see as being the results of curbishley going?
The performances haven't been great recently but we are in the play off positions and only 7 points off automatic promotion. We've already shown that we are capable of putting a decent run together and we've also seen that any team in the division can get beat.
I'm not looking at things through "red and white tinted glass" and am happy to call it as I see it. The reality is that while things could be better but they could also be a whole lot worse.
I don't know mate, I don't want to get into a petty argument, there's been plenty of that on here already, from what I've seen the so called 'pessimists' prove themselves right using some very strange criteria though. And even if I did accept that they were right, smugness at predicting failure for a club that all of us on here care about is never going to be endearing.
As always it's the middle ground that's missing - the more rational viewpoints just get lost amongst the noise of the extremes. If we don't think that a home defeat to Colchester means that the end is nigh then we're viewing things through rose tinted glasses.
I am concerned by our squad, especially in light of our injury list, I'm concerned that if we don't improve our home form then we won't even make a play-off spot and after some of the performances recently it's hard to see where the improvement will come from.........but I don't think that this means we need to harp on about prior managers, sack the current one, stop going to games altogether, sack the assistant manager, write off the season, prepare for League One or sack the board either!
[cite]Posted By: PassItToLeaburn[/cite] smugness at predicting failure for a club that all of us on here care about is never going to be endearing.
i don't think anyone on here is smug about the failure of our team , people call it as they see it
and it'd be a boring CL board if we didn't have the extreme views , i love oggys optimistic posts even tho i don't agree with all of them...
and it's all about us SUPPORTING THE TEAM IN THE GROUND and i'm as positive and as vocal as any in the ground and that's what matters not my negative vibe on here
As PassIt said, West Brom at the moment look like they'll be clear winners this year, but they've had 2 years to rebuild their team - and even though they're top of the pile, still been beaten 6 times already this season.
Pardews got the tactics in away games spot on (and the results prove it) but at home there's no sustained pressure on opponents and no cutting edge.
So it's time to think again tactically, especially in the light of missing our creative players.
Many results against us this season have been because we've been undone by teams who've perfected the art of scoring at set pieces. Something has to be addressed in why we are so vulnerable at set pieces and yet why we rarely take advantage ourselves.
We've got good technical wideplayers who don't really provide much end product. Okay Thomas is on his wrong foot and cuts inside - why doesn't he take his mazy dribbles into the box? We never seem to win enough penalties.
Sam has pace to get to the byline - he should be doing damage by penetrating behind their defence.
Even McLeod has shown us how a few times and earned penalties by running at the soft underbelly of teams.
We're just not intelligently pressurising teams into making defensive mistakes - when you do, it causes havoc.
Ask our own defenders.
Totally agree. Our play is so slow and predictable, knock it along the back 4 and then just hoof it forward and hope for the best.
Take a look at the you tube of McLeod, when was the last time our midfield played forward passes like that, that our strikers could run on to? They are either feeding off long ball scraps or forced out of goal scoring areas to look for the ball.
You're labouring the point about Pards quote, and you've taken it out of context, he was saying that it's been a terrible run, but we can hold on to being 5th, that not naivity, that just dealing with the situation as it is.
Comments
Pards not surprisingly, hasn't been able to do it yet - and even if there was to be a new manager, we would have unrealistic expectation if we thought he could wave a magic wand.
Pards is halfway through doing the job as he sees it.
Let's give him the time to do the second half.
After all, despite the moaning supporters, they gave him the time he needed at West Ham - and he repaid them with promotion, an FA Cup final and 9th place Prem finish.
Would you be happy if that was all we had to look forward to in the next 2 or 3 years?
Have a listen to his post match conference after the Col U game, and you're see he doesn't think he has a better team then he thinks.
Before he did leave however I got the full set of sunley sponsored shirts that the Addicks once wore and they were proudly worn by the Goullbourne football club here in Wrexham for 2 seasons in the mid 80's.
I don't let insults bother me even if they do come from the village idiot![/quote]
Someone's tired!
We all blamed Mervyn Day for Curbs failings as a manager and some are doing it again
but i'd luv it , really luv it if we were to be proved wrong ;-)
I am struggling to believe what I'm reading.
Firstly, Marcus Bent was a useless apology for a forward under three managers before Pardew took over. Bent himself has alluded to his "off the field" issues getting in the way last year and putting that behind him (that was before he left us). He had returned to some sort of form before he left us as well by the way.
Pardew was unhappy about the two Argentinians being parachuted in to West Ham, rarely played Tevez and ever more rarely played Mascherano so I can't see your point here at all.
If you are looking for his weakness, I believe it was in getting too close to certain players, and being more mates with rather than the boss of them. I think that he has tried to stamp this out but I do wonder if we are seeing this again in some of his team selections. His motivational style seems to be more carrot than stick. Perhaps too much maybe.
Pardew has a successful record at this level of getting teams into play off finals. It is hard to think of other potential managers who would be likely to come/are available that are the equal of him, let alone his superior. (No I don't think Billy Davies would be one).
Lets just face facts guys, we've had a shitty Xmas run and it damn well sucks! I'm sure that Pards will be working hard to turn things up again in the new year. Lets just face the West Brom game with a "one off" mentality. If we get stuffed great, cos we can concentrate on the league..:-). If we win, well lets hope for th Gunners at home!
"us Pessimists" Oohahh? But I thought you were a "realist"?!!!
;o)
As for who should be next manager, theres loads of quality candidates out there. Off the top of my head for ideal candidates to replace Alan Partridge.
Venables
Hoddle
Keegan
Jol
Billy Davies
Lawrie Sanchez
Graeme Souness
Joe Royle
i was trying to be polite to the delusional optimists, you know how touchy everyone is at the moment i didn't want to offend anyone;-)
Capello
Rijkaard
I assume these are all a joke CS87? As for your previous list, I wouldn't have any of them thank you except for maybe Jol and he wouldn't come.
Firstly how people can lay the blame at Parkinson's door really baffles me - who actually knows the ins and outs of the way him and Pardew work to an extent where they can judge that it's his fault?
Secondly, yes it's been a pretty terrible Christmas period but knee jerk sackings of the manager are a foolish way of dealing with runs like that. Pards has had to completely rebuild a squad over the summer, I'm not saying I agree with all of his signings, or indeed his tactics but definitely think he should be given more than one transfer window to get this huge task right....especially when no-one can suggest anyone better for the job (other than CS87 who seems to think we could lure Wenger if we so desired!).
Thirdly, I can see that the 'pessimists' are already salivating at the opportunity to throw out more unwarranted 'I told you so's. It's all so easy to predict the worst but 'be happy to be proved wrong' isn't it? It's a win-win. Boring though.
Fourthly, blaming Pardew for Bent's attitude is clutching at straws. Bent's moved clubs more times than a Big Brother contestant on a night out - why do you think that is? Probably because his attitude stinks and managers can never get the best out of him.
I'm not of the 'everything's fine' persuasion. It's not. But there's so many on here who seem to revel in our failure or are completely reactionary after every game we don't win and want to debate who we can replace Pardew with or how we should never have gotten rid of Curbishley (not that we would have had a say in that by the end of last season anyway) or move from definite promotion when we win to considering League One when we lose. It reads more and more like a Tottenham message board by the week........
Welcome back PITL, the sane branch of CL has been missing a key member :-)
Well said PITL
We were being served up absolute dross for the majority of the time in the championship and were very very lucky to get promoted. Had we not been promoted the season we did, we could easily have ended up like forrest/leeds as we were in £30m of debt and the parachute payments were about to stop.
However, pardew had assembled a good squad from the championship days, and one that has gone on to make us a fair bit of profit.
The problem when in the championship, in my opinion, was in pardews lact of tactical ability to break teams down that put 10 men behind the ball when coming to the boleyn. I can't say I have seen too much of your games, but is that the same as what is going on at the valley?
I personally don't think pardew is as good as he thinks he is.
There is no denying he has his moments as a manager, but this tends to be when his team are the plucky underdogs (i.e. our first season in the prem). You are currently a big sclap to a lot of championship teams and this is when pardew struggles to get results.
My opinion is it would be a mistake to sack him at this stage of the season though. Your still in with a very good shout of going up.
very well said.
As you say we seem to struggle most when the onus is on us to break teams down and I actually think he's compiled a pretty decent squad of players and it is his tactics in attacking teams who come to The Valley to defend that are letting us down the most.
That said we have a crippling injury list at the moment and very few players that were at the club as long as 6 months ago - (think about moving jobs yourself - it always takes a little while to settle in, it's possible to do it straight away if you're slotting in to an already settled team but none of our players have had that luxury, they're still getting to know each other and learning how best to work together). Some of the performances recently can't be excused by the turnaround, the injury list or anything else but as an overall start to the season against expectations I don't think it's too bad.
I think Pardew needs until at least this time next year to have been given a fair crack, it gives him a chance to have a shot at promotion with a newly assembled squad this year and if that doesn't work out then next summer to refine it (as West Brom have done this year - who I'm convinced will be clear winners of the league this year). I think a lot of people are really underestimating the rebuilding job that's been done in a very short space of time, someone posted up the squad list from this time last year just before Christmas and I think we could pick about 3 names that would still make the 16 man squad for a matchday this season - that's a huge change. As I said, some of the performances recently have been inexcusable and little of what we've seen at home has been great but bearing in mind the transition we're in then if I'd been offered fifth place and 7 points from the automatic spots after 26 games during pre-season then I'd have taken it.
i'm afraid the pessimists have called it right so far since i've been on this site and i'm sure us pessimists say it how we see it maybe not thru the red and white tinted glasses of some...
totally agree with that but the reasonable start we had and the poor opposition of this league got most peoples hopes up, myself included , and the recent poor performances don't bode well for the rest of the season, it's the hope that kills ya!
in the ground tho our support has got to improve but we're unfortunately, as a crowd , a quiet bunch and all the passionate fans(almost all on here would consider themselves vocally passionate for the team) are all split up around the ground..... bring back the terraces
The performances haven't been great recently but we are in the play off positions and only 7 points off automatic promotion. We've already shown that we are capable of putting a decent run together and we've also seen that any team in the division can get beat.
I'm not looking at things through "red and white tinted glass" and am happy to call it as I see it. The reality is that while things could be better but they could also be a whole lot worse.
we got relegated last year
As always it's the middle ground that's missing - the more rational viewpoints just get lost amongst the noise of the extremes. If we don't think that a home defeat to Colchester means that the end is nigh then we're viewing things through rose tinted glasses.
I am concerned by our squad, especially in light of our injury list, I'm concerned that if we don't improve our home form then we won't even make a play-off spot and after some of the performances recently it's hard to see where the improvement will come from.........but I don't think that this means we need to harp on about prior managers, sack the current one, stop going to games altogether, sack the assistant manager, write off the season, prepare for League One or sack the board either!
And this season we are in a good position to get promoted!
i don't think anyone on here is smug about the failure of our team , people call it as they see it
and it'd be a boring CL board if we didn't have the extreme views , i love oggys optimistic posts even tho i don't agree with all of them...
and it's all about us SUPPORTING THE TEAM IN THE GROUND and i'm as positive and as vocal as any in the ground and that's what matters not my negative vibe on here
Pardews got the tactics in away games spot on (and the results prove it) but at home there's no sustained pressure on opponents and no cutting edge.
So it's time to think again tactically, especially in the light of missing our creative players.
Many results against us this season have been because we've been undone by teams who've perfected the art of scoring at set pieces. Something has to be addressed in why we are so vulnerable at set pieces and yet why we rarely take advantage ourselves.
We've got good technical wideplayers who don't really provide much end product. Okay Thomas is on his wrong foot and cuts inside - why doesn't he take his mazy dribbles into the box? We never seem to win enough penalties.
Sam has pace to get to the byline - he should be doing damage by penetrating behind their defence.
Even McLeod has shown us how a few times and earned penalties by running at the soft underbelly of teams.
We're just not intelligently pressurising teams into making defensive mistakes - when you do, it causes havoc.
Ask our own defenders.
Take a look at the you tube of McLeod, when was the last time our midfield played forward passes like that, that our strikers could run on to? They are either feeding off long ball scraps or forced out of goal scoring areas to look for the ball.