Lots of folk on holiday, silly lunchtime kickoff, ticket prices increased (maybe the club asked AI to suggest the new prices and they implemented the silly answers)… I thought it was a decent turnout, all said.
We won’t get a true idea of how it’s all going for a few weeks yet.
As many are saying, it’s too simplistic to state it is all about prices. One of the biggest challenges is building the habit - you need to get people along once then twice then a few times then regularly then they become ST holders.
In many cases people lapse because of circumstances (work/family/health) so not straightforward to get them back proactively.
It is important that we are bringing in new fans in decent numbers - as only some will come back, and a smaller number still will become regulars. The much greater movement of population into the local catchment area is a huge opportunity to grow the next generation of Addicks. It’s a big advantage compared to one town / one city clubs.
Based on the Jimmy Seed Stand being sold out as Watford did I would say 20k should be a minimum on those days.
With Millwall, Leicester, Southampton, Portsmouth, Birmingham, QPR, Coventry, Sheff Weds, Wrexham, Norwich, Oxford, Sheff Utd all likely to sell out the Jimmy Seed Stand I would probably put Watford towards the lower end of that pack in terms of being attractive opponents, probably only ahead of Oxford so probably 12th out of maybe 13 expected away end sell outs.
Of the remaining 10 home games 4 of them are on a Tuesday night which naturally see lower attended crowds which reduced prices probably won't have much impact on. That then leaves maybe 6 home games in which to target increased crowds but even then out of those 6 remaining 3pms Stoke, Blackburn, Preston, Bristol City, Hull and Swansea there's still every possibility Stoke and Bristol City may sell out the JSS. Hull on the penultimate game of the season may need a result and bring a crowd with them too.
So in reality it's probably only Blackburn, Preston and Swansea 3pm games who may not come anywhere near to selling out the JSS stand against potentially 12-15 more games that could sell out. Of the 15 + Watford I would still put Watford amongst the bottom 3-4 of most appealing teams to watch us play against.
Point is I would expect more bigger crowds than reduced crowds for the rest of the season even if results dip and we get into a relegation scrap I don't see this team rolling over to cause crowds to give up and not come back. So on that basis probably no need to reduce the prices.
That's also before you have the debate about the board's investment in the team and raised season ticket prices.
Just had to point out that as there are 24 teams in the league, there are a total of 23 home games, meaning there are 22 left
The line above the one you highlighted was what I was comparing the 10 left compared to the 13 Saturday 3pm games where the opposition will probably sell out the JSS.
Let’s come back to this in October. The views of contributors to Charlton Life are highly unlikely to be representative of the marginal purchasers we need to increase take-up of the available seats.
We had about 18,500 home supporters according to the official attendance, which will include 11,250 season tickets and 500-1,000 comps, typically. So let’s say there were roughly 6,500 home ticket sales. Comps can be much higher, but I assume they weren’t for this game. They won’t be less than 500.
Full adult sales will only be about 60% of the total. Most of the rest are junior and other concessions, but seniors are more likely to have season tickets.
That sale is decent by Charlton standards but will be difficult to maintain through the autumn. Other things being equal it will always fall back from the first game.
What was interesting to me was that sales seemed to stall quite badly in the last week, when I might have expected the momentum to build. It seems we’d hit a ceiling but there was no football reason for that.
The 12.30 kick-off was just one factor among many affecting the sale but had been known for many weeks.
I am very, very sceptical of benchmarking against other clubs in different parts of the country with different core support, or even Millwall, because the information is of limited use. Think of it as concentric circles of support, with the keenest and closest being denser for those clubs and us having more in the outer rings. Think of Millwall’s reputation as a massive negative for many people tempted to try it out.
One strategy we deployed was making it easier for people to attend, eg. Valley Express. We would have brought in 1,000 people on Saturday a decade or so ago - the club had about 300. It’s by no means the full answer but a fare of £18, including for small children, is nuts: a family of four would be paying £72 to get there before they had even bought a match ticket. Although people have always struggled to understand this, it pays the club to take a hit on Valley Express because it sells more match tickets. It would cost my family £75 to get to The Valley by train from Kent despite living within a short walk of a station. I will never do it (or use the coach).
Ditto trying to take a profit from the growing parking problem, which will cut crowds. You would think this is a reason to develop Valley Express.
As per the other thread, not assuming potential fans know what the ticket availability is on a matchday is another simple thing you can do. Make it possible to buy online before kick-off, if you can.
it’s quite right that results are an important consideration and if we are top of the Championship people will find a way to get there. But you can’t guarantee that, so you control the controllables. In any other scenario than a sell-out, the club benefits.
The price in the lower Covered End is of limited relevance because of where it is, never mind what’s available.
Looking at a pricing advert there are a crazy number of price points - there are five concession prices between £25 and £30 for Gold games. This has almost no revenue benefit and just complicates sales. Charging up to £43 for seats at the back of the upper west is also nonsense.
I’m not arguing for major reductions, just a bit of common sense in how pricing and accessibility is approached, but what we have at the moment is a mess. I don’t expect most regular fans to care. The people running the club should.
The likelihood is that we will end up with a narrative about “disappointing” attendances, but there are things that could be done to avoid that, and not just sending out more emails.
If we are successful then the crowds will come. I don't think our pricing is that much of an issue, as people will see when they find out what some of the away ticket prices are for games.
People who go to away games are a whole other cohort to those who could be attracted to The Valley.
If we are successful then the crowds will come. I don't think our pricing is that much of an issue, as people will see when they find out what some of the away ticket prices are for games.
People who go to away games are a whole other cohort to those who could be attracted to The Valley.
That's not what i meant though. I'm talking about our prices in relation to what fans will be charged at away games, such as QPR £39 and Ipswich £43.
I think you also need o factor in whether the game is televised. I’m more likely to go to the Saturday 3pm games because I can’t watch them on Sky.
The 12:30 matches are a bit of a double whammy in terms of their impact on attendance. Less attractive than a 3pm kick off and can be watched live on TV.
I know the revenue from TV is important but the sheer number of matches that are now at 12:30 is OTT. I’d love to know how many people actually watched Charlton v Watford on Sky+. Once you also have a Premier League match in that slot the viewing figures will be even lower.
Need relatively high prices if we are splashing the cash, playing championship football will contribute to higher pricing also. don’t mind playing a bit more if the level of spend is the same
I think you also need o factor in whether the game is televised. I’m more likely to go to the Saturday 3pm games because I can’t watch them on Sky.
The 12:30 matches are a bit of a double whammy in terms of their impact on attendance. Less attractive than a 3pm kick off and can be watched live on TV.
I know the revenue from TV is important but the sheer number of matches that are now at 12:30 is OTT. I’d love to know how many people actually watched Charlton v Watford on Sky+. Once you also have a Premier League match in that slot the viewing figures will be even lower.
There’s clearly a market for it though, otherwise sky wouldn’t show it. Not just our games but all the others as well.
If we are successful then the crowds will come. I don't think our pricing is that much of an issue, as people will see when they find out what some of the away ticket prices are for games.
People who go to away games are a whole other cohort to those who could be attracted to The Valley.
That's not what i meant though. I'm talking about our prices in relation to what fans will be charged at away games, such as QPR £39 and Ipswich £43.
I know, but so what? My decision on whether I will pay £39 to go to QPR is very different to that of a casual or first-time attender deciding to go to The Valley. What QPR charge away fans is of no relevance to them.
I think the club should target the new occupants of the apartments being built on both sides of the railway line at Maryon Road. These people will have no problems with parking etc, they may also be new to the area, So a leaflet drop with ticket offers could well bring in new fans who may end up attending regularly. Just a thought.
If we are successful then the crowds will come. I don't think our pricing is that much of an issue, as people will see when they find out what some of the away ticket prices are for games.
People who go to away games are a whole other cohort to those who could be attracted to The Valley.
That's not what i meant though. I'm talking about our prices in relation to what fans will be charged at away games, such as QPR £39 and Ipswich £43.
I know, but so what? My decision on whether I will pay £39 to go to QPR is very different to that of a casual or first-time attender deciding to go to The Valley. What QPR charge away fans is of no relevance to them.
I thought the clubs have to charge relative pricing for away fans, so if they charge £39 to away fans, the opposite side of the ground to the away section has to be the same pricing structure?
So our away fans are lower tier behind the goal, and that's the "cheap seats" for us in the Covered End Lower, so they don't get charged as much.
Need relatively high prices if we are splashing the cash, playing championship football will contribute to higher pricing also. don’t mind playing a bit more if the level of spend is the same
The club has investors that own it. The end game for them has to be getting to the PL. do that and they are sitting on an investment that is worth considerably more than they paid for it. Getting there will take further investment for which I’m sure they must have factored in from the start. When they achieve their goal, and I’ll do my best to it by turning up and making some noise, then I won’t be expecting them to share some of their good fortune by paying me if that helps. Making fans pay more when driving them away will hinder chances of promotion to the PL makes no sense to me whatsoever.
If we are successful then the crowds will come. I don't think our pricing is that much of an issue, as people will see when they find out what some of the away ticket prices are for games.
People who go to away games are a whole other cohort to those who could be attracted to The Valley.
That's not what i meant though. I'm talking about our prices in relation to what fans will be charged at away games, such as QPR £39 and Ipswich £43.
I know, but so what? My decision on whether I will pay £39 to go to QPR is very different to that of a casual or first-time attender deciding to go to The Valley. What QPR charge away fans is of no relevance to them.
I thought the clubs have to charge relative pricing for away fans, so if they charge £39 to away fans, the opposite side of the ground to the away section has to be the same pricing structure?
So our away fans are lower tier behind the goal, and that's the "cheap seats" for us in the Covered End Lower, so they don't get charged as much.
Not the worst attendance this weekend but I suspect we could narrow that gap with QPR over the season if we are not challenging for promotion. By next Saturday we will have the list for the opening game for all teams. After that we can see how the season pans out and how our attendances compare.
That’s embarrassing from West Brom. They must have a very disillusioned fan base.
Need relatively high prices if we are splashing the cash, playing championship football will contribute to higher pricing also. don’t mind playing a bit more if the level of spend is the same
Higher prices do not necessarily equal higher revenue because what you will do cannot be assumed to also be the behaviour of people less committed than you.
Nobody is saying the club should not maximise its revenue in the short, medium and long term. The debate is about how best to do that with 5,000 empty seats on Saturday.
Football admission prices used to be just above the price of a pint (not a Greenwich Tourist price but a normal Spoons price about £2.50 ) . 1974 - General Admission price £40p adult. Its far outstripped inflation and is simply beyond the reach of an average wage earner. So my view is £25 would be a the max cost which is about 10x the price of a pint of Doombar in The Turnpike or Great Harry . Before anyone jumps dowm my throat just consider that not everyone earns 100k city money and Greenwich and the immediate population have a high number of average wage earners - NHS workers, Postmen, delivery drivers who earn 1/3 of this £100k figure.
Need relatively high prices if we are splashing the cash, playing championship football will contribute to higher pricing also. don’t mind playing a bit more if the level of spend is the same
Higher prices do not necessarily equal higher revenue because what you will do cannot be assumed to also be the behaviour of people less committed than you.
Nobody is saying the club should not maximise its revenue in the short, medium and long term. The debate is about how best to do that with 5,000 empty seats on Saturday.
Good. Agreed.
The reason I "benchmarked" was firstly to attempt to get a rational handle on whether I was right to be disappointed on hearing the attendance on Saturday. It's interesting that you confirm the sales fell off a cliff in the final days, and it looked like (from comments from e.g Steve Brown) the club expected to reach 23-24k in which case we'd be close enough to Stoke and Boro to not be worth thinking about, and as a result , well on track. As it is, some disappointment seems reasonable, inside the Club, but as you indicate, it's all about what you do about it. I definitely agree with you that making it easier and cheaper to get there should be high on the agenda. It's another reason, apart from reasonable prices why German Bundesliga 2 has overtaken the Championship as the best attended second league in Europe.
When the Board set overall prices I am sure they will have to some extent benchmarked other club's prices. Of course, (@Chizz), I understand perfectly well that " no fan gives a flying fig how much they charge at Stoke, Middlesbrough, Blackburn, Watford or anywhere else.". The "competition" for fans' money, as others have said, is whatever else people can do with their time and money on the same day and time. But in the Boardroom, they most certainly consider the likes of Stoke and Boro as competitors -for the players they might wish to buy. Unfortunately we have the parachute clubs whom we cannot compete with, but we want to be as attractive as the others on wages. Put it this way, what would we say if the choice was 10% lower season tickets, but then we can't afford Harvey Knibbs, and he goes to Stoke?
I think you also need o factor in whether the game is televised. I’m more likely to go to the Saturday 3pm games because I can’t watch them on Sky.
The 12:30 matches are a bit of a double whammy in terms of their impact on attendance. Less attractive than a 3pm kick off and can be watched live on TV.
I know the revenue from TV is important but the sheer number of matches that are now at 12:30 is OTT. I’d love to know how many people actually watched Charlton v Watford on Sky+. Once you also have a Premier League match in that slot the viewing figures will be even lower.
There’s clearly a market for it though, otherwise sky wouldn’t show it. Not just our games but all the others as well.
I think it’s mainly designed so that Sky can say “watch over x00 matches live on Sky this season”. The individual viewing figures for most of our matches at 12:30 on Sky+ will be lower than the number of fans attending the match they inconvenience with the changed kick off time.
After five consecutive seasons in League One, it's fair to say the club has experienced a period of stagnation.
The crowd of 21,778 for our first home game marked our highest attendance for a home opener in 17 years! Statistically that cannot be argued with. It beat Bolton’s 21,570 which was the largest turnout across the League One fixtures this weekend.
That's not our benchmark, but on the other hand, is filling a stadium built (following expansion) for the Premier league truely realistic? I appreciate we are looking to maximise revenue, but for some context, here’s our average attendance figures during recent Championship seasons.
After five consecutive seasons in League One, it's fair to say the club has experienced a period of stagnation.
The crowd of 21,778 for our first home game marked our highest attendance for a home opener in 17 years! Statistically that cannot be argued with. It beat Bolton’s 21,570 which was the largest turnout across the League One fixtures this weekend.
That's not our benchmark, but on the other hand, is filling a stadium built for the Premier league truely realistic? I appreciate we are looking to maximise revenue, but for some context, here’s our average attendance figures during recent Championship seasons.
2014–15: 16,708 2015–16: 15,632 2019–20: 14,884
21,778 vs Watford as I mentioned at the start of the thread should be the benchmark and probably one of our middling home crowds by the end of the season given we have more glamorous opposition to come more appealing to those who pick and choose games like Southampton, Leicester etc.
Yes that 21,778 will be inflated from those wanting to go to the first game but then there are also fans who were away on holiday so don’t think it’s unrealistic for a 20k average crowd this season if Watford ends up being a middling crowd. I expect we’ll get a bigger crowd against Leicester for being a far bigger pull than Watford.
Some further context to add is 14/15, 15/16 and 19/20 were all still under the ownership of Roland. Probably better off looking at attendances from 07/08 and 08/09 or even add 12/13 and 13/14 before Roland was involved.
Need relatively high prices if we are splashing the cash, playing championship football will contribute to higher pricing also. don’t mind playing a bit more if the level of spend is the same
Higher prices do not necessarily equal higher revenue because what you will do cannot be assumed to also be the behaviour of people less committed than you.
Nobody is saying the club should not maximise its revenue in the short, medium and long term. The debate is about how best to do that with 5,000 empty seats on Saturday.
Good. Agreed.
The reason I "benchmarked" was firstly to attempt to get a rational handle on whether I was right to be disappointed on hearing the attendance on Saturday. It's interesting that you confirm the sales fell off a cliff in the final days, and it looked like (from comments from e.g Steve Brown) the club expected to reach 23-24k in which case we'd be close enough to Stoke and Boro to not be worth thinking about, and as a result , well on track. As it is, some disappointment seems reasonable, inside the Club, but as you indicate, it's all about what you do about it. I definitely agree with you that making it easier and cheaper to get there should be high on the agenda. It's another reason, apart from reasonable prices why German Bundesliga 2 has overtaken the Championship as the best attended second league in Europe.
When the Board set overall prices I am sure they will have to some extent benchmarked other club's prices. Of course, (@Chizz), I understand perfectly well that " no fan gives a flying fig how much they charge at Stoke, Middlesbrough, Blackburn, Watford or anywhere else.". The "competition" for fans' money, as others have said, is whatever else people can do with their time and money on the same day and time. But in the Boardroom, they most certainly consider the likes of Stoke and Boro as competitors -for the players they might wish to buy. Unfortunately we have the parachute clubs whom we cannot compete with, but we want to be as attractive as the others on wages. Put it this way, what would we say if the choice was 10% lower season tickets, but then we can't afford Harvey Knibbs, and he goes to Stoke?
That’s never going to be the choice, though, is it? Ten per cent off season tickets is about £300,000, before any offsetting from changes to sales. It’s disingenuous to pretend that these are the key differentials when your commercial income is a quarter or a fifth of the average in the division, the central revenue is eight figures and you can potentially sell a player for £10m.
And, again, the whole discussion is what prices maximise ticket revenue, not what changes are fair or desirable.
22 thousand is a good crowd for us in the championship - we aren’t a Middlesbrough, Norwich or a Coventry even atm - we are a club who has played second fiddle to our nearest rivals for 15 years so a lot of the more floaty football attending support in the local area that may have gone to us will currently be going to millwall, palace and even Bromley and West Ham - it’s a bloody good crowd figure if you ask me and certainly better than the 4 or 5 thousand that was the norm in the same division when I started going - I don’t think we need to be constantly looking to pricing deals in order to drag people in - people will come if they want to - there’s loads on here that pick and choose yet r on here all the time like their lives depend on every result - it’s a good crowd and if crowds manage to average out at 20k across the season it will still be a good effort
Comments
We won’t get a true idea of how it’s all going for a few weeks yet.
We had about 18,500 home supporters according to the official attendance, which will include 11,250 season tickets and 500-1,000 comps, typically. So let’s say there were roughly 6,500 home ticket sales. Comps can be much higher, but I assume they weren’t for this game. They won’t be less than 500.
Full adult sales will only be about 60% of the total. Most of the rest are junior and other concessions, but seniors are more likely to have season tickets.
That sale is decent by Charlton standards but will be difficult to maintain through the autumn. Other things being equal it will always fall back from the first game.
What was interesting to me was that sales seemed to stall quite badly in the last week, when I might have expected the momentum to build. It seems we’d hit a ceiling but there was no football reason for that.
The 12.30 kick-off was just one factor among many affecting the sale but had been known for many weeks.
I am very, very sceptical of benchmarking against other clubs in different parts of the country with different core support, or even Millwall, because the information is of limited use. Think of it as concentric circles of support, with the keenest and closest being denser for those clubs and us having more in the outer rings. Think of Millwall’s reputation as a massive negative for many people tempted to try it out.
One strategy we deployed was making it easier for people to attend, eg. Valley Express. We would have brought in 1,000 people on Saturday a decade or so ago - the club had about 300. It’s by no means the full answer but a fare of £18, including for small children, is nuts: a family of four would be paying £72 to get there before they had even bought a match ticket. Although people have always struggled to understand this, it pays the club to take a hit on Valley Express because it sells more match tickets. It would cost my family £75 to get to The Valley by train from Kent despite living within a short walk of a station. I will never do it (or use the coach).
Ditto trying to take a profit from the growing parking problem, which will cut crowds. You would think this is a reason to develop Valley Express.
As per the other thread, not assuming potential fans know what the ticket availability is on a matchday is another simple thing you can do. Make it possible to buy online before kick-off, if you can.
it’s quite right that results are an important consideration and if we are top of the Championship people will find a way to get there. But you can’t guarantee that, so you control the controllables. In any other scenario than a sell-out, the club benefits.
The price in the lower Covered End is of limited relevance because of where it is, never mind what’s available.
Looking at a pricing advert there are a crazy number of price points - there are five concession prices between £25 and £30 for Gold games. This has almost no revenue benefit and just complicates sales.
Charging up to £43 for seats at the back of the upper west is also nonsense.
So our away fans are lower tier behind the goal, and that's the "cheap seats" for us in the Covered End Lower, so they don't get charged as much.
I'm surprised how cheap beer is at Millwall.
Nobody is saying the club should not maximise its revenue in the short, medium and long term. The debate is about how best to do that with 5,000 empty seats on Saturday.
1974 - General Admission price £40p adult. Its far outstripped inflation and is simply beyond the reach of an average wage earner.
So my view is £25 would be a the max cost which is about 10x the price of a pint of Doombar in The Turnpike or Great Harry . Before anyone jumps dowm my throat just consider that not everyone earns 100k city money and Greenwich and the immediate population have a high number of average wage earners - NHS workers, Postmen, delivery drivers who earn 1/3 of this £100k figure.
The reason I "benchmarked" was firstly to attempt to get a rational handle on whether I was right to be disappointed on hearing the attendance on Saturday. It's interesting that you confirm the sales fell off a cliff in the final days, and it looked like (from comments from e.g Steve Brown) the club expected to reach 23-24k in which case we'd be close enough to Stoke and Boro to not be worth thinking about, and as a result , well on track. As it is, some disappointment seems reasonable, inside the Club, but as you indicate, it's all about what you do about it. I definitely agree with you that making it easier and cheaper to get there should be high on the agenda. It's another reason, apart from reasonable prices why German Bundesliga 2 has overtaken the Championship as the best attended second league in Europe.
When the Board set overall prices I am sure they will have to some extent benchmarked other club's prices. Of course, (@Chizz), I understand perfectly well that " no fan gives a flying fig how much they charge at Stoke, Middlesbrough, Blackburn, Watford or anywhere else.". The "competition" for fans' money, as others have said, is whatever else people can do with their time and money on the same day and time. But in the Boardroom, they most certainly consider the likes of Stoke and Boro as competitors -for the players they might wish to buy. Unfortunately we have the parachute clubs whom we cannot compete with, but we want to be as attractive as the others on wages. Put it this way, what would we say if the choice was 10% lower season tickets, but then we can't afford Harvey Knibbs, and he goes to Stoke?
The crowd of 21,778 for our first home game marked our highest attendance for a home opener in 17 years! Statistically that cannot be argued with. It beat Bolton’s 21,570 which was the largest turnout across the League One fixtures this weekend.
That's not our benchmark, but on the other hand, is filling a stadium built (following expansion) for the Premier league truely realistic? I appreciate we are looking to maximise revenue, but for some context, here’s our average attendance figures during recent Championship seasons.
2014–15: 16,708
2015–16: 15,632
2019–20: 14,884
Yes that 21,778 will be inflated from those wanting to go to the first game but then there are also fans who were away on holiday so don’t think it’s unrealistic for a 20k average crowd this season if Watford ends up being a middling crowd. I expect we’ll get a bigger crowd against Leicester for being a far bigger pull than Watford.
Some further context to add is 14/15, 15/16 and 19/20 were all still under the ownership of Roland. Probably better off looking at attendances from 07/08 and 08/09 or even add 12/13 and 13/14 before Roland was involved.