Interesting but why didn’t you do Watford or QPR ?
Because they don't have bigger attendances than we have (based on the early indications of Saturday's gate). On Saturday the majority of clubs had bigger attendances than ours, so the question arises whether that is because our prices are too high.
The cost of living is a interesting one, just because it costs over a mil to buy a house locally, doesnt mean that a big % of our fans own multi million pound houses or have great paying jobs in the city. They may well be struggling to make ends meet and the price of football is just one expense too much.
Theres a huge discrepancy in our fan bases ages, so the older crew have probably done well and seen great house prices increase over the last 3 decades and the youger lot possibly still at home on lower paid jobs.
Also, "disposable income" isn't necessarily reflective if what someone earns. Someone on £40k a year, but tight as a duck arse will more than likely have more disposable than someone on £150k a year, who spends £151k a year
But if you earn 150k and have none left, surely youve disposed of it ?
Some good points on here. I do think when the single ticket price edges over £30 it creates a value barrier even if it is only a couple of quid more. Then I suppose you look at us being 5k short of capacity on Saturday, but at the last Valley game at Wycombe we sold out and some. If you are charging £5 more on a 22k crowd you are getting about £25,000. If you filled the ground at £5 less you make the same money.
But then if we do well the numbers will probably increase. I think months where people are not on holiday is a factor too. So potentially, you could make more money at £5 more expensive tickets overall. But if you struggle, the price might put more people off. It seems marginal to me in that it can work for you or against you.
I would imagine we still categorise the games and first game back in the Championship against a localish side might be a higher category, and consequently higher price than Hull, Preston or Blackburn games.
Based on the Jimmy Seed Stand being sold out as Watford did I would say 20k should be a minimum on those days.
With Millwall, Leicester, Southampton, Portsmouth, Birmingham, QPR, Coventry, Sheff Weds, Wrexham, Norwich, Oxford, Sheff Utd all likely to sell out the Jimmy Seed Stand I would probably put Watford towards the lower end of that pack in terms of being attractive opponents, probably only ahead of Oxford so probably 12th out of maybe 13 expected away end sell outs.
Of the remaining 10 home games 4 of them are on a Tuesday night which naturally see lower attended crowds which reduced prices probably won't have much impact on. That then leaves maybe 6 home games in which to target increased crowds but even then out of those 6 remaining 3pms Stoke, Blackburn, Preston, Bristol City, Hull and Swansea there's still every possibility Stoke and Bristol City may sell out the JSS. Hull on the penultimate game of the season may need a result and bring a crowd with them too.
So in reality it's probably only Blackburn, Preston and Swansea 3pm games who may not come anywhere near to selling out the JSS stand against potentially 12-15 more games that could sell out. Of the 15 + Watford I would still put Watford amongst the bottom 3-4 of most appealing teams to watch us play against.
Point is I would expect more bigger crowds than reduced crowds for the rest of the season even if results dip and we get into a relegation scrap I don't see this team rolling over to cause crowds to give up and not come back. So on that basis probably no need to reduce the prices.
That's also before you have the debate about the board's investment in the team and raised season ticket prices.
Just had to point out that as there are 24 teams in the league, there are a total of 23 home games, meaning there are 22 left
Interesting but why didn’t you do Watford or QPR ?
Because they don't have bigger attendances than we have (based on the early indications of Saturday's gate). On Saturday the majority of clubs had bigger attendances than ours, so the question arises whether that is because our prices are too high.
I think the kick off time had something to do with it, and the fact you can watch it n Sky
Interesting but why didn’t you do Watford or QPR ?
Because they don't have bigger attendances than we have (based on the early indications of Saturday's gate). On Saturday the majority of clubs had bigger attendances than ours, so the question arises whether that is because our prices are too high.
I think the kick off time had something to do with it, and the fact you can watch it n Sky
Even more reason to reduce the price of a match ticket. It’s not as if the club wasn’t being well compensated for the game being on tv. It was also a great advertising opportunity. Show a picked out Valley and it will encourage people to come along. Show empty seats, which we did, and it spoils the image.
I put it on another thread but financially, if the ticket is £5 more, it works out the same if we have full capacity as 5k less than capacity. I accept a sellout Valley creates more revenue opportunities but August is a funny month with a lot on holiday so it is hard to be sure we would sell out at £5 less a ticket. It seems to me to be a marginal one. We definitely have to price some games like Hull, Blackburn and Preston, competitively.
I’ve always made my position clear on season ticket prices. Sell enough STs and the other match tickets more or less sell themselves.
the target for sales should be 18-20k, after that there are only 9 to 7k match day tickets available and 3 of those are for away fans; and at the lower number the club can get away with having a higher match day tickets price if they want (as is what seems to be happening in the Championship judging by comments on another thread of what we will have to pay for away tickets).
The opening question, "should Charlton drop prices to increase attendances?" is a really good one. It's a laser-focused query on the most crucial element of revenue projections and it requires estimates on how elastic the demand for Charlton tickets is, as well as an estimate as to what the overall revenue effect would be on those price drops.
But it only goes half-way. Because the end goal - surely - is to increase revenue by optimising the attendance. In other words, the maximum-achieveable attendance (ie a full stadium) could be delivered by a very low ticket price, resulting in a loss of revenue, but with higher match-day administration costs. The over-all aspiration has to be more than just increasing the numbers of people in the ground.
Equally, the revenue on its own shouldn't be the sole criterion. For example, increasing the ticket price by 100% might see a reduction in attendance of - say - 45%. This would increase the total revenue - great! - but reduce the attendance - terrible!
The price of tickets is one of the main drivers of attendance (along with on-pitch success). If the team is doing well, casual fans might be persuaded (or dissuaded) by a reduction (or increase) in price. That's obvious. Any fan considering going to the match on a one-off basis will decide whether the price is affordable. But, I would guess that no fan, when considering going to the next match, gives a flying fig how much they charge at Stoke, Middlesbrough, Blackburn, Watford or anywhere else. No-one thinks to themselves "that's really expensive, but I will go because Stoke fans have to pay more).
I'd really like to see what the research is on price versus attendance, why the current pricing has been pitched at the price-points we're at now and what we might expect to happen to attendances (and revenue) would be with price changes.
The most important factor affecting attendance is success on the pitch. Next is the prices. Everything else is trivial.
, AFAIK : Stoke and Middlebrough. They got 25k and 26k respectively on Sat compared to our 22k (
Really? I don't believe it. I watched the highlights this evening and there were loads of empty seats at Stoke. Last season was always the same. I don't think they do much more than half fill it. The Valley certainly looked more full than Stoke. I'm not convinced that Middlesbrough really had that many either.
Stoke capacity is 30k and Boro 34k. The uncomfortable fact is that we won’t have had 22k either because AFAIK we count season tickets in the released figures, as do all the others.
I believe Boro fans frequently argue that they should drop the prices and fill the place, get a better atmosphere. The question, always the question, is whether if you drop the prices the increased number of fans more than compensates and the total revenue goes up. Because if it doesnt, there is less money to spend on the player wage budget. Another inconvenient fact that @valleynick66 (above) chooses to ignore - a surprise to me as in different threads you’ve been quite the hard-headed businessman.
What am I ignoring exactly? That ticket revenue and not central money now dictates our ‘undisclosed’ transfer spend? It’s a factor but not the difference you suggest.
I’m simply bemoaning the pricing out of the football supporter.
The new breed of owners are chasing a different demographic than I grew up with at football.
We are dependent on foolish businessmen carrying the losses of all clubs.
Lowering the price would bring back some but my critical point remains for many households that it’s a choice - a relatively expensive trip to the football or a more modest and certain alternate activity.
Interesting but why didn’t you do Watford or QPR ?
Because they don't have bigger attendances than we have (based on the early indications of Saturday's gate). On Saturday the majority of clubs had bigger attendances than ours, so the question arises whether that is because our prices are too high.
To be fair Watford have precisely the same average attendance at their matches as we do this season!
The most important factor affecting attendance is success on the pitch. Next is the prices. Everything else is trivial.
I think the kick-off time, day of the week (Saturday v. any evening) and if the match is on TV are all big contributing factors to attendance of many (including some S/T holders).
Interesting but why didn’t you do Watford or QPR ?
Because they don't have bigger attendances than we have (based on the early indications of Saturday's gate). On Saturday the majority of clubs had bigger attendances than ours, so the question arises whether that is because our prices are too high.
To be fair Watford have precisely the same average attendance at their matches as we do this season!
They’ve been playing at a higher level than Charlton for the past 20 years.
The East Stand is a problem people have bought season tickets so reducing prices would cause uproar, but the two blocks nearer the away fans and north stand should be priced as lower north you would then have more chance filling them, I had a friend ask me to get them 4 tickets on Friday, all I could get was East Stand but £32.00 a pop is far too expensive imho
Interesting but why didn’t you do Watford or QPR ?
Because they don't have bigger attendances than we have (based on the early indications of Saturday's gate). On Saturday the majority of clubs had bigger attendances than ours, so the question arises whether that is because our prices are too high.
To be fair Watford have precisely the same average attendance at their matches as we do this season!
They’ve been playing at a higher level than Charlton for the past 20 years.
The East Stand is a problem people have bought season tickets so reducing prices would cause uproar, but the two blocks nearer the away fans and north stand should be priced as lower north you would then have more chance filling them, I had a friend ask me to get them 4 tickets on Friday, all I could get was East Stand but £32.00 a pop is far too expensive imho
Yeah £32 is a lot, even worse if you buy on the day (think it’s £35 then).
The East Stand is a problem people have bought season tickets so reducing prices would cause uproar, but the two blocks nearer the away fans and north stand should be priced as lower north you would then have more chance filling them, I had a friend ask me to get them 4 tickets on Friday, all I could get was East Stand but £32.00 a pop is far too expensive imho
Yeah £32 is a lot, even worse if you buy on the day (think it’s £35 then).
Some good points on here. I do think when the single ticket price edges over £30 it creates a value barrier even if it is only a couple of quid more. Then I suppose you look at us being 5k short of capacity on Saturday, but at the last Valley game at Wycombe we sold out and some. If you are charging £5 more on a 22k crowd you are getting about £25,000. If you filled the ground at £5 less you make the same money.
But then if we do well the numbers will probably increase. I think months where people are not on holiday is a factor too. So potentially, you could make more money at £5 more expensive tickets overall. But if you struggle, the price might put more people off. It seems marginal to me in that it can work for you or against you.
I would imagine we still categorise the games and first game back in the Championship against a localish side might be a higher category, and consequently higher price than Hull, Preston or Blackburn games.
Purchased 3 tickets for the Leichester game and think I got maybe £3 change out of £100.
Not the worst attendance this weekend but I suspect we could narrow that gap with QPR over the season if we are not challenging for promotion. By next Saturday we will have the list for the opening game for all teams. After that we can see how the season pans out and how our attendances compare.
And the moral to this is "if you want a job done properly, don't employ AI"!!
In addition to @Gribbo's comments about disposable income, and the need to compare one-off tickets as well as season tickets, I think another relevant variable is the number of choices of ways to spend said "spare" cash. I would argue London offers a far wider choice of leisure activities and venues than either Teesside or the Potteries, so the competition for casual uncommitted customers (as apposed to die-hard fans) is greater in Charlton than Middlesbrough or Stoke.
I agree that the "choice" plays a significant role in the difference between supporters of a London club and those of a town club in the Midlands or North, although I wonder if that's true of our first away destination, Bristol City.
However , I wonder whether we should be targetting the "casual uncommitted customer". Compared with the Burton game about 2,000 Charlton fans were missing yesterday. Are they casual, uncommitted? Would they have attended if the prices were the same as for the Burton game?
We took 40,000 to Wembley (probably more like 42,000k when you add in hospitality areas). There are a lot of "casual, uncommitted" in that figure, I am sure. It shows the potential, but we don't need to worry about most of them now, since 27,000 is our ceiling for the foreseeable future. I'd say we are looking first for people who "identify" as Charlton fans, and used to attend at least 5 matches per season, but have not been recently (except Burton and Wycombe Play-off).
Another thing to throw in the mix is that if you compare last season in the Championship with 2018-19, (the season before we were there, but that season's gates were curtailed by Covid) gates last season were 15% higher (source Claude in "research' mode). It's fair to say that increase was not driven by lower prices, unfortunately.
Please don't get me wrong. I would love to see lower prices, I agree that it's really tough for a lot of the most "proper" Charlton fans, but we also have to be competitive in this league for revenue with the Stokes and Boros. Otherwise they continue to outbid us for players. I don't know myself what the best strategy is, I only set out to show that it's not as simple as, "lower prices and they will come".
If we are successful then the crowds will come. I don't think our pricing is that much of an issue, as people will see when they find out what some of the away ticket prices are for games.
Just looked at Boro and Stoke's next home league games and their ticket prices are much the same as ours, with Boro (against Sheff U) £33 and Stoke (against West Brom) £31.
They won’t when they have had their biggest home attendance for the first game of the season since 2007 and have Leicester and Millwall next up at the Valley which will attract gates over 20,000
Also the club have sold well over 11,000 season tickets which they are saying is the highest number in 17 years
Blackburn is the first 3pm Saturday kick off at the end of September and the first side they won’t sell out the Away end. However depending on results for us leading up to that fixture that could be another one over 20 Thousand
Then you get into the home game in October which will be another sold out away end and a gate over 20 Thousand in Sheffield Wednesday
In my opinion they would only start to consider doing price reductions when they have midweek games kick at home starting in early November
The most important factor affecting attendance is success on the pitch. Next is the prices. Everything else is trivial.
I think the kick-off time, day of the week (Saturday v. any evening) and if the match is on TV are all big contributing factors to attendance of many (including some S/T holders).
You're right. These parameters are out of the club's control. I should have said "everything else under the club's control is trivial". Although, it would be true to say that, if the prices were lowered and the team was in the top two all season, there would be a high attendance for the last games of the season, no matter what time the game takes place and whether or not it's on tv.
Comments
But then if we do well the numbers will probably increase. I think months where people are not on holiday is a factor too. So potentially, you could make more money at £5 more expensive tickets overall. But if you struggle, the price might put more people off. It seems marginal to me in that it can work for you or against you.
I would imagine we still categorise the games and first game back in the Championship against a localish side might be a higher category, and consequently higher price than Hull, Preston or Blackburn games.
the target for sales should be 18-20k, after that there are only 9 to 7k match day tickets available and 3 of those are for away fans; and at the lower number the club can get away with having a higher match day tickets price if they want (as is what seems to be happening in the Championship judging by comments on another thread of what we will have to pay for away tickets).
But it only goes half-way. Because the end goal - surely - is to increase revenue by optimising the attendance. In other words, the maximum-achieveable attendance (ie a full stadium) could be delivered by a very low ticket price, resulting in a loss of revenue, but with higher match-day administration costs. The over-all aspiration has to be more than just increasing the numbers of people in the ground.
Equally, the revenue on its own shouldn't be the sole criterion. For example, increasing the ticket price by 100% might see a reduction in attendance of - say - 45%. This would increase the total revenue - great! - but reduce the attendance - terrible!
The price of tickets is one of the main drivers of attendance (along with on-pitch success). If the team is doing well, casual fans might be persuaded (or dissuaded) by a reduction (or increase) in price. That's obvious. Any fan considering going to the match on a one-off basis will decide whether the price is affordable. But, I would guess that no fan, when considering going to the next match, gives a flying fig how much they charge at Stoke, Middlesbrough, Blackburn, Watford or anywhere else. No-one thinks to themselves "that's really expensive, but I will go because Stoke fans have to pay more).
I'd really like to see what the research is on price versus attendance, why the current pricing has been pitched at the price-points we're at now and what we might expect to happen to attendances (and revenue) would be with price changes.
The most important factor affecting attendance is success on the pitch. Next is the prices. Everything else is trivial.
I’m simply bemoaning the pricing out of the football supporter.
https://booking.cafc.co.uk/en-GB/categories/Home Games
what happened to the 40k at Wembley ?
However , I wonder whether we should be targetting the "casual uncommitted customer". Compared with the Burton game about 2,000 Charlton fans were missing yesterday. Are they casual, uncommitted? Would they have attended if the prices were the same as for the Burton game?
We took 40,000 to Wembley (probably more like 42,000k when you add in hospitality areas). There are a lot of "casual, uncommitted" in that figure, I am sure. It shows the potential, but we don't need to worry about most of them now, since 27,000 is our ceiling for the foreseeable future. I'd say we are looking first for people who "identify" as Charlton fans, and used to attend at least 5 matches per season, but have not been recently (except Burton and Wycombe Play-off).
Another thing to throw in the mix is that if you compare last season in the Championship with 2018-19, (the season before we were there, but that season's gates were curtailed by Covid) gates last season were 15% higher (source Claude in "research' mode). It's fair to say that increase was not driven by lower prices, unfortunately.
Please don't get me wrong. I would love to see lower prices, I agree that it's really tough for a lot of the most "proper" Charlton fans, but we also have to be competitive in this league for revenue with the Stokes and Boros. Otherwise they continue to outbid us for players. I don't know myself what the best strategy is, I only set out to show that it's not as simple as, "lower prices and they will come".
Also the club have sold well over 11,000 season tickets which they are saying is the highest number in 17 years
Blackburn is the first 3pm Saturday kick off at the end of September and the first side they won’t sell out the Away end. However depending on results for us leading up to that fixture that could be another one over 20 Thousand
Then you get into the home game in October which will be another sold out away end and a gate over 20 Thousand in Sheffield Wednesday
In my opinion they would only start to consider doing price reductions when they have midweek games kick at home starting in early November