Since January 2021, only 1 Charlton manager has been in post for 2 consecutive transfer windows (Dean Holden, and even he had 2 different ownership groups to deal with). In the last 3 windows, 3 different managers have gone out and recruited entirely different profiles of player.
I don't know if Jones is the right answer any more, but I honestly believe that the constant changing of manager and recruitment strategy is doing more damage than any amount of hoof-ball tactics.
Agree with this sentiment but Jones isn’t the one to commit to.
I understand why a lot of people think this, and the football is truly hard to watch right now, but the trouble I have is that it's the same argument that gets aired whenever we go through a bad spell with any manager.
Jackson, Adkins, Garner, Holden, Appleton were also "not the right ones" to commit to. The experienced managers like Adkins were 'past it' or 'living off former glories', the young ones like Garner were 'naive' or 'unproven at the level'. Appleton didn't care enough, Jones can't control his emotions. They're either too stubborn to change their tactics, or they switch things up and get accused of not knowing their best XI.
There always seems to be a reason why it won't work, and always this implicit belief that a new manager with different strengths (and weaknesses) will bring the best out of this club. But when it comes to speculating on who that manager should be, there is zero alignment across the fanbase on what we all want.
I sometimes wonder if the reason why we only seem to do well with club legends in charge is because they're the only people with enough credit in the bank to avoid getting sacked when the team goes through its inevitable troughs in performance.
I would have been fine sticking with Jacko or Holden.
Holden should never have been given the job in the first place. Jackson should have been persevered with.
This 100%. Our previous few most successful managers have been ex Charlton players as well - Curbs, Powell, Bowyer. Charlton are a unique club and these people ‘got it’. None had managerial experience, just passion and a drive for the club to succeed.
genuinely not sure if you are trolling or not? You believe we got promoted because Charlton are unique and those managers "got the club"?
Nothing to do with those managers having quality players no?
It’s my opinion and quite frankly I could t care less if you think I’m trolling or not, I think you are trolling me
Imo, we would have a difficult time if we came up against him and MK Dons right now. Sometimes it's more to do with the club itself than the level of football.
Elliot Lee for instance dropped down and is now back in this league, above us, has also picked up more man of the match awards and goals than all of our midfielders combined.
He was absolutely naff for us, but obviously something clicks for him there. It doesn't always work that way, cause Charlie Kirk is the opposite example of Lee, but I do believe some players just move to us at the wrong time and Gilbey might have been one of them. Looking like there is a chance we will find out next season the answer to this question anyway, oh joy.
I really liked Lee for the first half of the season! He really dropped off though, was weird - why does it happen so often that we Charltonise them?!
When I said "Naff for us" I was referring to Gilbey btw and MK Dons, wasn't very clear, my bad.
Since January 2021, only 1 Charlton manager has been in post for 2 consecutive transfer windows (Dean Holden, and even he had 2 different ownership groups to deal with). In the last 3 windows, 3 different managers have gone out and recruited entirely different profiles of player.
I don't know if Jones is the right answer any more, but I honestly believe that the constant changing of manager and recruitment strategy is doing more damage than any amount of hoof-ball tactics.
Agree with this sentiment but Jones isn’t the one to commit to.
I understand why a lot of people think this, and the football is truly hard to watch right now, but the trouble I have is that it's the same argument that gets aired whenever we go through a bad spell with any manager.
Jackson, Adkins, Garner, Holden, Appleton were also "not the right ones" to commit to. The experienced managers like Adkins were 'past it' or 'living off former glories', the young ones like Garner were 'naive' or 'unproven at the level'. Appleton didn't care enough, Jones can't control his emotions. They're either too stubborn to change their tactics, or they switch things up and get accused of not knowing their best XI.
There always seems to be a reason why it won't work, and always this implicit belief that a new manager with different strengths (and weaknesses) will bring the best out of this club. But when it comes to speculating on who that manager should be, there is zero alignment across the fanbase on what we all want.
I sometimes wonder if the reason why we only seem to do well with club legends in charge is because they're the only people with enough credit in the bank to avoid getting sacked when the team goes through its inevitable troughs in performance.
I would have been fine sticking with Jacko or Holden.
Holden should never have been given the job in the first place. Jackson should have been persevered with.
This 100%. Our previous few most successful managers have been ex Charlton players as well - Curbs, Powell, Bowyer. Charlton are a unique club and these people ‘got it’. None had managerial experience, just passion and a drive for the club to succeed.
genuinely not sure if you are trolling or not? You believe we got promoted because Charlton are unique and those managers "got the club"?
Nothing to do with those managers having quality players no?
Actually you are SO right, we aren’t unique at all. I’m sure every club’s last 4 promotions have come with managers that are ex players with no previous experience when they took the job. But don’t let that get in the way of having a pop at me will you …
I’d have Gilbey and Lee in our team all day long now.
A Charlton fan has been driven to this
Gilbey or Anderson ? Lee or Docherty ? If you are picking the former then you haven’t been watching the lack of quality we have this season ?
I'd pick Lee over Docherty. Gilbey over Anderson though? Nah I wouldn't even say that. At least Anderson tries
At least Gilbey could pass a ball.
Could he? Really?
Better than Anderson - Definitely. Work rate not so much .
The fact is one has found his level in league two and the other should probably be playing in league two.
( and could well be the way we are going )
Sort of agree with this tbf. Gilbey was absolute gash for us, but most of that was down to him being lazy and clearly not wanting to be here. Anderson is just an awful footballer who tries hard.
I'll always pick someone who gives 100% over someone who doesn't, but Anderson wouldn't get into any midfield in the top half of our league and is clearly a weak link on the ball for us.
Forgetting all the proverbials he spouts. We had reached a point where the defence needed tightening up. That seems to be happening. The trick is to bank that and improve other areas. That has to happen and quickly. It is not unreasonable at this level for us to be averaging 2 plus goals a game, where the reality in our last three against Crawley, Lincoln, Orient and Mansfield (3 of which were at the Valley) have seen us score one and concede 4!!!! And based on chance creation, that was about right.
We are not going to glean from what Jones says whether he has a plan to achieve this but we will from upcoming games. Northampton away and Cambridge at home. Both winnable on paper. Will he be able to make us carry some sort of threat? Will he mess up the defence in the process? What shouldn't be lost on us is that Mansfield missed a chance in the first half that I'd back myself to score. The way we are at the moment, that means a loss!
Actions speak louder than words and in Jones case, every word he utters requires ignoring. But he has achieved success in the past and we have to hope he has some idea how to do it again.
Back to back 0-0 after that pathetic performance against Crawley. The return of Lloyd Jones has probably kept Nathan Jones in his job for the time being.
Overall, we are limping along the line until January window.
I’ve stayed away from the pile in, and Charlton Life in general during this poor run - because I just find it exacerbates the depression and anger at us being shit.
I’ve made it clear on the match threads that I am not a ‘Jones’ fan - and have said as much to my friends in real life whenever the topic of football or Charlton is raised.
We looked fitter and more aggressive than teams at the beginning of the season but that soon closed as they got some games in. And since then we’ve looked meek and one dimensional.
One thing I will say is I think a lot of recency bias is in play here when you compare this run of games to others. Each time this happens it’s the worst team, worse football, worst manager, worst dressing room lost we’ve ever had - where I just think that’s just the emotion of another dead underachieving season bubbling up.
Do I think this is good. Absolutely not. Do I think it’s the worse we have been recently - also not.
Do I trust Jones to turn it around. Not really, but at least there (for the first time) in that second half looked like some patterns of play emerging. I was shocked to see players dropping deep, taking the ball under pressure and quickly moving it.
Hopefully we can see more of that. Though I very much doubt it.
I've been fairly adamant he has to go for a few weeks, but yesterday would be the wrong game to fire him after. The players got a deserved clap off at the end. It was a horrible game and we play terrible football, but...it would feel wrong, this time, for me.
I've been fairly adamant he has to go for a few weeks, but yesterday would be the wrong game to fire him after. The players got a deserved clap off at the end. It was a horrible game and we play terrible football, but...it would feel wrong, this time, for me.
Win the next two and we'll review
In the minority here, but I feel he will still finish the season as manager. Especially if Aneke is back very shortly. 8 clean sheets out of 19 matches is very respectable.
After the shambles of the Appleton appointment, I don’t think the senior leadership will want to navigate the hassle and embarrassment of going through another hiring process.
I just don't trust him and Scott to do the right kind of business in January. Already got a big squad that's unbalanced and I can't see the owners wanting to splash the cash again after the summer window hasn't worked (Alex Mitchell, Godden in flashes and Josh Edwards aside)
Jones needs to ditch this aversion to PL loans and go and get a couple of quality creative players straight away at the start of the window, just got to hope they're more Millar and JRS types than the likes of Fiorini and Ladapo.
I've been fairly adamant he has to go for a few weeks, but yesterday would be the wrong game to fire him after. The players got a deserved clap off at the end. It was a horrible game and we play terrible football, but...it would feel wrong, this time, for me.
Win the next two and we'll review
In the minority here, but I feel he will still finish the season as manager. Especially if Aneke is back very shortly. 8 clean sheets out of 19 matches is very respectable.
After the shambles of the Appleton appointment, I don’t think the senior leadership will want to navigate the hassle and embarrassment of going through another hiring process.
Yeh, better to save face with an 18th place finish
It would appear that quite a few on here are pinning their hopes on the January window. A couple of PL kids are not going to solve our problems and I’d be amazed if we sign anyone else on loan other than perhaps a couple of league one journeymen or Championship players on the way down to plug our injury gaps. Cash will not be spent.
It would appear that quite a few on here are pinning their hopes on the January window. A couple of PL kids are not going to solve our problems and I’d be amazed if we sign anyone else on loan other than perhaps a couple of league one journeymen or Championship players on the way down to plug our injury gaps. Cash will not be spent.
I agree, can’t see cash being spent. A couple of loans would help (imo), but I thought (and maybe wrong) that the clubs policy was now to move away from loans ?
It would appear that quite a few on here are pinning their hopes on the January window. A couple of PL kids are not going to solve our problems and I’d be amazed if we sign anyone else on loan other than perhaps a couple of league one journeymen or Championship players on the way down to plug our injury gaps. Cash will not be spent.
I agree, can’t see cash being spent. A couple of loans would help (imo), but I thought (and maybe wrong) that the clubs policy was now to move away from loans ?
It’s short termism to plug gaps in squad due to injuries. There’s nothing about the next window that will progress us.
Surely the best children from premier league academies are already out on loan? Are PL teams really going to break those loan deals to send them to us? Getting a good young player from a premier league side is a gamble in the summer. We’ve had lots over the past few years and while the likes of Gallagher and JRS live long in the memory the majority that we’ve had in are not up to it. That gamble must have even worse odds in the January window of finding a young prem player that we can get in on loan that’s going to transform us.
Not saying we shouldn’t try, and frankly Jones has lost the right to oppose us doing so after the debacle that was our summer window, but just encouraging you all to set your expectations accordingly.
Starts post match interview, having been asked what he made of the 0-0 draw with...
"'(long sigh).... A lot of positives..."
Later on asked to reflect on 1 win in 9 league games, he shot back without a pause for breath with, "well, 2 in 10".
FFS, imagine you're in the dressing room and you listen to this guy. If he hasn't lost the dressing room, then you'd have to question the players' sanity.
There are fans who still think he should be given time. I can't get my head round this. This is the guy you want to give more time to? This guy, who built this squad, playing this football every week, speaking this utter gibberish. This is the guy we apparently can't get rid of in case it means starting again. He is already on borrowed time. Every day he remains in the job is an insult to the fans who are paying to watch this dross. I understand there are diehards but outside of those gluttons for punishment, there is barely going to be a soul turning up to matches next season if NJ remains in charge.
Get him out. Just do it. It feels like the fans have become so supine, so resigned to failure that they can't even rous themselves to properly protest what they're seeing. Even willing to defend a manager who has just drawn 0-0 at home to a team who lost their last five. Having previously lost convincingly at home to Leyton Orient and Crawley. All the while playing the worst brand of football we've ever seen. There are still fans who think, well, give him a few more weeks, see if he turns it around, give him January to sign more of his players. Surely we can't have given up on the club to such an extent that we'll sleepily descend on the Valley every week, knowing this dirge that's absolutely inevitably going to be served up, go home and go, 'oh well, there's no point in complaining, how will changing things help?'. We may not hire the messiah, we not hire even a remotely good manager but we can't just stick so assuredly to someone as insanely inept as Jones. You have to gamble on someone doing a better job, rather than accepting this level of awfulness. What's the worst that could happen? We get someone equally as bad as Jones? I don't believe for a second that we could get someone worse.
I can’t bring myself to listen to Jones’ interviews any more, although I see from here and the post-match thread that he’s trying to defend himself on the basis that we’re one of the best pressing teams. Beyond the early season games, I very much doubt that this is true, given the lacklustre performances we’ve been turning in and the ease with which teams like Crawley have been able to play through us. The man is inviting us to disbelieve the evidence of our own eyes and what we are witnessing week in, week out.
More fundamentally, whilst it’s important to win the ball back from the opposition, it’s then imperative to be able to do something constructive with it. This rather important point appears to have totally bypassed Nathan Jones, who gives every impression of being wedded to his tactical orthodoxy.
His ranting and raving on the touchline looks unhelpful to me and if it reflects his general approach during the week, I imagine that several players will have stopped listening. He also comes across as an arrogant and inflexible man and I think he would regard it as a sign of weakness to bounce the odd idea off people like Curbs or even Keith Peacock.
It’s a sobering thought that, since Sandgaard gave Jacko the push, none of the four managers employed since - Adkins, Garner, Holden and Jones - have done any better; arguably, all have done worse.
I suspect that change may happen next month if we suffer a bad run of results against Wycombe, Crawley and Reading, although the SMT will want Jones to see the season out unless we are sucked into a relegation fight.
Comments
I'll always pick someone who gives 100% over someone who doesn't, but Anderson wouldn't get into any midfield in the top half of our league and is clearly a weak link on the ball for us.
We are not going to glean from what Jones says whether he has a plan to achieve this but we will from upcoming games. Northampton away and Cambridge at home. Both winnable on paper. Will he be able to make us carry some sort of threat? Will he mess up the defence in the process? What shouldn't be lost on us is that Mansfield missed a chance in the first half that I'd back myself to score. The way we are at the moment, that means a loss!
Actions speak louder than words and in Jones case, every word he utters requires ignoring. But he has achieved success in the past and we have to hope he has some idea how to do it again.
I’ve made it clear on the match threads that I am not a ‘Jones’ fan - and have said as much to my friends in real life whenever the topic of football or Charlton is raised.
We looked fitter and more aggressive than teams at the beginning of the season but that soon closed as they got some games in. And since then we’ve looked meek and one dimensional.
One thing I will say is I think a lot of recency bias is in play here when you compare this run of games to others. Each time this happens it’s the worst team, worse football, worst manager, worst dressing room lost we’ve ever had - where I just think that’s just the emotion of another dead underachieving season bubbling up.
Do I think this is good. Absolutely not. Do I think it’s the worse we have been recently - also not.
Win the next two and we'll review
After the shambles of the Appleton appointment, I don’t think the senior leadership will want to navigate the hassle and embarrassment of going through another hiring process.
Jones needs to ditch this aversion to PL loans and go and get a couple of quality creative players straight away at the start of the window, just got to hope they're more Millar and JRS types than the likes of Fiorini and Ladapo.
Not saying we shouldn’t try, and frankly Jones has lost the right to oppose us doing so after the debacle that was our summer window, but just encouraging you all to set your expectations accordingly.
"'(long sigh).... A lot of positives..."
Later on asked to reflect on 1 win in 9 league games, he shot back without a pause for breath with, "well, 2 in 10".
FFS, imagine you're in the dressing room and you listen to this guy. If he hasn't lost the dressing room, then you'd have to question the players' sanity.
There are fans who still think he should be given time. I can't get my head round this. This is the guy you want to give more time to? This guy, who built this squad, playing this football every week, speaking this utter gibberish. This is the guy we apparently can't get rid of in case it means starting again. He is already on borrowed time. Every day he remains in the job is an insult to the fans who are paying to watch this dross. I understand there are diehards but outside of those gluttons for punishment, there is barely going to be a soul turning up to matches next season if NJ remains in charge.
Get him out. Just do it. It feels like the fans have become so supine, so resigned to failure that they can't even rous themselves to properly protest what they're seeing. Even willing to defend a manager who has just drawn 0-0 at home to a team who lost their last five. Having previously lost convincingly at home to Leyton Orient and Crawley. All the while playing the worst brand of football we've ever seen. There are still fans who think, well, give him a few more weeks, see if he turns it around, give him January to sign more of his players. Surely we can't have given up on the club to such an extent that we'll sleepily descend on the Valley every week, knowing this dirge that's absolutely inevitably going to be served up, go home and go, 'oh well, there's no point in complaining, how will changing things help?'. We may not hire the messiah, we not hire even a remotely good manager but we can't just stick so assuredly to someone as insanely inept as Jones. You have to gamble on someone doing a better job, rather than accepting this level of awfulness. What's the worst that could happen? We get someone equally as bad as Jones? I don't believe for a second that we could get someone worse.
More fundamentally, whilst it’s important to win the ball back from the opposition, it’s then imperative to be able to do something constructive with it. This rather important point appears to have totally bypassed Nathan Jones, who gives every impression of being wedded to his tactical orthodoxy.
His ranting and raving on the touchline looks unhelpful to me and if it reflects his general approach during the week, I imagine that several players will have stopped listening. He also comes across as an arrogant and inflexible man and I think he would regard it as a sign of weakness to bounce the odd idea off people like Curbs or even Keith Peacock.
I suspect that change may happen next month if we suffer a bad run of results against Wycombe, Crawley and Reading, although the SMT will want Jones to see the season out unless we are sucked into a relegation fight.