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Is There Any Reason For An Owner To Spend Money Upgrading The Valley?

edited March 2023 in General Charlton
I remember six years ago there was a debate here as to whether we should renovate The Valley one stand at a time or build a new stadium nearby. We were in League One at the time, just as we are now.

But given when we were in The Championship the stands were 1/2 empty on average (only 14,500 average attendance before Covid,) I wonder if there is simply no reason to do either? I know this is not relevant as long as RD owns it, but even if he did not I don't see the logic on doing anything but keeping The Valley standing from an economic standpoint.

Other clubs around the same time seemed similarly gung-ho about major renovations and rebuilds. Palace, Birmingham, Wolves... none have happened and plans have been delayed or scrapped. Wolves wanted a new 40,000 upgrade but decided to pass because even in the PL there was not enough demand to justify it. Even Chelsea scrapped their plans long before the Ukraine invasion forced ownership changes there. The owners of ManU would rather sell than sink money into their stadium, which says a lot given they make more money than any club on the planet. We are not ManU.

Is there really any reason to spend money upgrading stands at The Valley when we can barely fill half of it in The Championship? What's the incentive for any owner to do so? Liverpool expanded attendances with their new stand but we don't have a wait list for season tickets. We did not have a single sellout in our sole season in The Championship. The most we got was 25k in one match.

Times seem to have changed since the last time we were down here in League One. Not solely for us but for almost all clubs, it seems. I sense the younger generation does not care about football as much as video games and Tik-Tok. As older fans go away, why spend millions upgrading a stadium when the next generation does not plan on coming?

Curious how others feel about it, both for us and in general in football.

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Comments

  • The owners of ManU would rather sell than sink money into their stadium, which says a lot given they make more money than any club on the planet. We are not ManU.

    Says a lot about the Glazers.

  • Obviously not, is the answer.

    You expand when you're filling the stadium.
  • leave as is with maintenance to stop shabiness creeping in AND get the pitch sorted out .. begs the question, who's responsible for the upkeep, Duchatalet or Sandy ? 
  • Upgrading - yes. Expanding - no.
  • Obviously not, is the answer.

    You expand when you're filling the stadium.

    Given we only sold 55% of the seats our first year in The Championship, I assume that would mean when we are in the PL? No doubt we would sell-out then, but given it would take 1-2 years per stand to upgrade, what happens if we go down in that 4-8 year gap? Even when we are filling The Valley, what owner would want to roll the dice? Look at what is happening with Everton; trying to build a billion dollar stadium that might finally open when they are in the second division.
  • edited March 2023
    Owner needs to undertake whatever is needed to keep their safety certificate, but nothing more than that. Given that most of the stands are reasonably new I wouldn't think that's too challenging. I just wish that they'd clean the pigeon shit off my seat.
  • It's all if's and only's.

    The completion of the stadium bowl, South stand and quadrants and a secound tier on the East would of made The Valley one of the most atmospheric mid size stadia in the UK.

    A real regret for me.  At this moment in time, totally unrealistic, uneeded and the stuff of dreams.

    So many consequences from our demise but this is the most tangible for me.
  • General maintenance could easily eat 100k
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  • No point in spending anything other than what’s needed for general upkeep.  Any more than that and Roly will actually think it really is worth £77m!! 😏
  • Upgrade?
    He's barely maintaining it.
    As you say it's not a relevant question as RD owns it.
  • I seem to remember there being something called Target 50k?

    Or have I got that muddled with Matt Southall's first month's salary ambition?!?
  • R0TW said:
    General maintenance could easily eat 100k
    I would think the maintenance figure is well north of £100k if the club is carrying out the correct level of service 
  • R0TW said:
    General maintenance could easily eat 100k
    I would think the maintenance figure is well north of £100k if the club is carrying out the correct level of service 
    I'd have thought replacing the popped floodlight bulbs alone would account for that kind of money.
  • I assume the seats in The Valley are narrow and older? Meaning that civilization's current, wider bottoms struggle to fit in them? If so and we just ripped out all the seats and put in new ones that are wider, how much would capacity drop?
  • Old Trafford seats were ridiculously small ours are fine in comparison if you’re not too tall 
  • I think the state of the Valley pitch is a bigger issue! It is terrible. 
  • edited March 2023
    No point up grading the Valley if he's building flats on it?! >:)
  • edited March 2023
    Obviously not, is the answer.

    You expand when you're filling the stadium.

    Given we only sold 55% of the seats our first year in The Championship, I assume that would mean when we are in the PL? No doubt we would sell-out then, but given it would take 1-2 years per stand to upgrade, what happens if we go down in that 4-8 year gap? Even when we are filling The Valley, what owner would want to roll the dice? Look at what is happening with Everton; trying to build a billion dollar stadium that might finally open when they are in the second division.
    The reported average attendance in 2019/20 was 18,027, which is about 66%.

    Even allowing for overstatement of home support caused by ticket holders not attending, the Jimmy Seed Stand will have been at capacity several times and that is the area which  potentially needs repair and replacement. You can’t substitute those seats with spare capacity elsewhere.

    Nobody is currently making a case for more seats. However that’s not the same as improvements, some of which may be mandatory because requirements change and structures decay.
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  • If the Jimmy Seed Stand falls foul of future safety inspections then all I see happening is that it will be closed. Unless something dramatic happens with our ownership and fortunes we’re definitely in a managed decline situation going forward. 
  • edited March 2023
    Obviously not, is the answer.

    You expand when you're filling the stadium.

    Given we only sold 55% of the seats our first year in The Championship, I assume that would mean when we are in the PL? No doubt we would sell-out then, but given it would take 1-2 years per stand to upgrade, what happens if we go down in that 4-8 year gap? Even when we are filling The Valley, what owner would want to roll the dice? Look at what is happening with Everton; trying to build a billion dollar stadium that might finally open when they are in the second division.
    The reported average attendance in 2019/20 was 18,027, which is about 66%.

    Even allowing for overstatement of home support caused by ticket holders not attending, the Jimmy Seed Stand will have been at capacity several times and that is the area which  potentially needs repair and replacement. You can’t substitute those seats with spare capacity elsewhere.

    Nobody is currently making a case for more seats. However that’s not the same as improvements, some of which may be mandatory because requirements change and structures decay.
    It would be great to build a structure to replace the Jimmy Seed that would result in the Valley becoming a complete bowl shape with the corners enclosed. I can imagine that would be a few dozen million to build though.

    If it was to happen Id rather have away fans in the corner and Charlton fans behind the goal, assuming it could be made to work for the police to be happy. 

    Could never see this happening until we become an established EPL team again though, and whoever owns Charlton owns the ground too or if the Jimmy Seed literally collapses! 

    ...and as people have mentioned, there might be more planning permission roadblocks now that didn't exist back in the mid-00s. 
  • If the Jimmy Seed Stand falls foul of future safety inspections then all I see happening is that it will be closed. Unless something dramatic happens with our ownership and fortunes we’re definitely in a managed decline situation going forward. 
    Unlikely to make financial sense. The works would be cheaper than lost revenue / additional cost over a short period.

    Might be used to justify leaving The Valley in 2024/25, of course, which the club is free to do.
  • I assume the seats in The Valley are narrow and older? Meaning that civilization's current, wider bottoms struggle to fit in them? If so and we just ripped out all the seats and put in new ones that are wider, how much would capacity drop?
    The UK has not yet reached US levels of obesity issues. Bums may be wider but on the whole the seats are fine.
  • I can't see the Jimmy Seed failing any safety requirements that couldn't be fixed easily. It's a simple roof over a concrete terrace, and was upgraded to 90s safety standards when we returned. Of course a larger and better stand would be desirable, but won't be needed until we're in the PL or at least a top Championship club.

    The general public facilities around the ground do need improvement, the toilets, the bars etc. Even if the Curbs stand isn't expanded, the area of wasteland behind the stands does feel like a waste, maybe it could be dug out to create a covered bar area. The roof would be low enough to not affect the houses behind.
  • If the Jimmy Seed Stand falls foul of future safety inspections then all I see happening is that it will be closed. Unless something dramatic happens with our ownership and fortunes we’re definitely in a managed decline situation going forward. 
    Unlikely to make financial sense. The works would be cheaper than lost revenue / additional cost over a short period.

    Might be used to justify leaving The Valley in 2024/25, of course, which the club is free to do.
    Why are the club free to leave in 24/25 ? 
  • If the Jimmy Seed Stand falls foul of future safety inspections then all I see happening is that it will be closed. Unless something dramatic happens with our ownership and fortunes we’re definitely in a managed decline situation going forward. 
    Unlikely to make financial sense. The works would be cheaper than lost revenue / additional cost over a short period.

    Might be used to justify leaving The Valley in 2024/25, of course, which the club is free to do.
    Why are the club free to leave in 24/25 ? 
    A break point in the lease I believe.
  • I can't see the Jimmy Seed failing any safety requirements that couldn't be fixed easily. It's a simple roof over a concrete terrace, and was upgraded to 90s safety standards when we returned. Of course a larger and better stand would be desirable, but won't be needed until we're in the PL or at least a top Championship club.

    The general public facilities around the ground do need improvement, the toilets, the bars etc. Even if the Curbs stand isn't expanded, the area of wasteland behind the stands does feel like a waste, maybe it could be dug out to create a covered bar area. The roof would be low enough to not affect the houses behind.
    I was told by someone at the club that when the Jimmy Seed Stand sign was replaced it couldn't actually be placed to look completely straight as they found that the JS stand was actually slowly sinking.

    To be fair it's been reopened for 30 years and it's still the same as it was then so think there's bound to be a few issues with the stand. 

    It needs rebuilding but the question is who's going to pay for it.
  • I can't see the Jimmy Seed failing any safety requirements that couldn't be fixed easily. It's a simple roof over a concrete terrace, and was upgraded to 90s safety standards when we returned. Of course a larger and better stand would be desirable, but won't be needed until we're in the PL or at least a top Championship club.

    The general public facilities around the ground do need improvement, the toilets, the bars etc. Even if the Curbs stand isn't expanded, the area of wasteland behind the stands does feel like a waste, maybe it could be dug out to create a covered bar area. The roof would be low enough to not affect the houses behind.
    I was told by someone at the club that when the Jimmy Seed Stand sign was replaced it couldn't actually be placed to look completely straight as they found that the JS stand was actually slowly sinking.

    To be fair it's been reopened for 30 years and it's still the same as it was then so think there's bound to be a few issues with the stand. 

    It needs rebuilding but the question is who's going to pay for it.
    I would offer, but I've just had to buy a new boiler!
  • I can't see the Jimmy Seed failing any safety requirements that couldn't be fixed easily. It's a simple roof over a concrete terrace, and was upgraded to 90s safety standards when we returned. Of course a larger and better stand would be desirable, but won't be needed until we're in the PL or at least a top Championship club.

    The general public facilities around the ground do need improvement, the toilets, the bars etc. Even if the Curbs stand isn't expanded, the area of wasteland behind the stands does feel like a waste, maybe it could be dug out to create a covered bar area. The roof would be low enough to not affect the houses behind.
    I was told by someone at the club that when the Jimmy Seed Stand sign was replaced it couldn't actually be placed to look completely straight as they found that the JS stand was actually slowly sinking.

    To be fair it's been reopened for 30 years and it's still the same as it was then so think there's bound to be a few issues with the stand. 

    It needs rebuilding but the question is who's going to pay for it.
    Few plant pots, a lick of paint and make it a feature... Works on the tele.
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