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Sport England report on transgender women
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Testosterone limiting is ridiculously ineffective. A few years ago, some muppet latched into the idea that you could magic away years (decades) of physiological advantages in muscle growth, bone density, Vo2 max and every other 'advantage' an athlete born male has over athletes born female by limiting their testosterone, and the trans lobby have tried to phrase every single conversation since then around this one incredibly small change and change the narrative to the point now people just accept it as a fact. I repeat - and have done multiple times - limiting testosterone does NOT level the playing field between men and women. It does NOT all of a sudden make you 'a woman'. All it does is make you a man with less testosterone.SELR_addicks said:
The idea of a 'freak show' category isn't one I can really get behind.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:We either get rid of gender categories or assign a new one for transgender athletes.
Testosterone limits is pretty much the only ruling you can do to make it 'fair'. However, like when athletes dope, there are ways of masking levels and bringing it back down in line ready for competition.6 -
This is all quite correct sadly. There is another point as well regarding reducing hormones in order to compete in sport and that is one around medical ethics. Hormones are not trivial things and making adjustments can often have catastrophic health consequences. People born with Kleinfelters (XXY chromosomes) for instance generally get given testosterone treatment as their levels tend to be lower than men with XY chromosomes. The reason for this treatment is to prevent osteoporosis. Why did Lance Armstrong and Ivan Basso both get testicular cancer?Leroy Ambrose said:
Testosterone limiting is ridiculously ineffective. A few years ago, some muppet latched into the idea that you could magic away years (decades) of physiological advantages in muscle growth, bone density, Vo2 max and every other 'advantage' an athlete born male has over athletes born female by limiting their testosterone, and the trans lobby have tried to phrase every single conversation since then around this one incredibly small change and change the narrative to the point now people just accept it as a fact. I repeat - and have done multiple times - limiting testosterone does NOT level the playing field between men and women. It does NOT all of a sudden make you 'a woman'. All it does is make you a man with less testosterone.SELR_addicks said:
The idea of a 'freak show' category isn't one I can really get behind.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:We either get rid of gender categories or assign a new one for transgender athletes.
Testosterone limits is pretty much the only ruling you can do to make it 'fair'. However, like when athletes dope, there are ways of masking levels and bringing it back down in line ready for competition.2 -
Incidentally rules about performance enhancing drugs in sport came in initially to protect the athletes from harm and prevent the type of incidents that led to Tom Simpsons death. To start using medical treatment solely to enable people to compete as well as being ineffective would be very questionable.3
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Probably more likely a combination of the testosterone with hgh than just the testo, tbf.Gary Poole said:
This is all quite correct sadly. There is another point as well regarding reducing hormones in order to compete in sport and that is one around medical ethics. Hormones are not trivial things and making adjustments can often have catastrophic health consequences. People born with Kleinfelters (XXY chromosomes) for instance generally get given testosterone treatment as their levels tend to be lower than men with XY chromosomes. The reason for this treatment is to prevent osteoporosis. Why did Lance Armstrong and Ivan Basso both get testicular cancer?Leroy Ambrose said:
Testosterone limiting is ridiculously ineffective. A few years ago, some muppet latched into the idea that you could magic away years (decades) of physiological advantages in muscle growth, bone density, Vo2 max and every other 'advantage' an athlete born male has over athletes born female by limiting their testosterone, and the trans lobby have tried to phrase every single conversation since then around this one incredibly small change and change the narrative to the point now people just accept it as a fact. I repeat - and have done multiple times - limiting testosterone does NOT level the playing field between men and women. It does NOT all of a sudden make you 'a woman'. All it does is make you a man with less testosterone.SELR_addicks said:
The idea of a 'freak show' category isn't one I can really get behind.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:We either get rid of gender categories or assign a new one for transgender athletes.
Testosterone limits is pretty much the only ruling you can do to make it 'fair'. However, like when athletes dope, there are ways of masking levels and bringing it back down in line ready for competition.0 -
I think it is fair to say that both had messed with their endocrinology prior to having cancer and it was quite possible a contributing factor. I am aware that some studies are still being carried out around hormones links to cancer.Leroy Ambrose said:
Probably more likely a combination of the testosterone with hgh than just the testo, tbf.Gary Poole said:
This is all quite correct sadly. There is another point as well regarding reducing hormones in order to compete in sport and that is one around medical ethics. Hormones are not trivial things and making adjustments can often have catastrophic health consequences. People born with Kleinfelters (XXY chromosomes) for instance generally get given testosterone treatment as their levels tend to be lower than men with XY chromosomes. The reason for this treatment is to prevent osteoporosis. Why did Lance Armstrong and Ivan Basso both get testicular cancer?Leroy Ambrose said:
Testosterone limiting is ridiculously ineffective. A few years ago, some muppet latched into the idea that you could magic away years (decades) of physiological advantages in muscle growth, bone density, Vo2 max and every other 'advantage' an athlete born male has over athletes born female by limiting their testosterone, and the trans lobby have tried to phrase every single conversation since then around this one incredibly small change and change the narrative to the point now people just accept it as a fact. I repeat - and have done multiple times - limiting testosterone does NOT level the playing field between men and women. It does NOT all of a sudden make you 'a woman'. All it does is make you a man with less testosterone.SELR_addicks said:
The idea of a 'freak show' category isn't one I can really get behind.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:We either get rid of gender categories or assign a new one for transgender athletes.
Testosterone limits is pretty much the only ruling you can do to make it 'fair'. However, like when athletes dope, there are ways of masking levels and bringing it back down in line ready for competition.
Lance was however much faster with one less testicle hard to say whether it was due to not carrying the weight of it, sitting more comfortably on the saddle or something else entirely 😉0 -
I has to depend on the sport.1
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Of course - anything where explosive power, strength and stamina are not pre-requisites of elite performance can be mixed as they are now.MuttleyCAFC said:I has to depend on the sport.2 -
She is a woman, let's get that clear.Leroy Ambrose said:
Testosterone limiting is ridiculously ineffective. A few years ago, some muppet latched into the idea that you could magic away years (decades) of physiological advantages in muscle growth, bone density, Vo2 max and every other 'advantage' an athlete born male has over athletes born female by limiting their testosterone, and the trans lobby have tried to phrase every single conversation since then around this one incredibly small change and change the narrative to the point now people just accept it as a fact. I repeat - and have done multiple times - limiting testosterone does NOT level the playing field between men and women. It does NOT all of a sudden make you 'a woman'. All it does is make you a man with less testosterone.SELR_addicks said:
The idea of a 'freak show' category isn't one I can really get behind.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:We either get rid of gender categories or assign a new one for transgender athletes.
Testosterone limits is pretty much the only ruling you can do to make it 'fair'. However, like when athletes dope, there are ways of masking levels and bringing it back down in line ready for competition.
I do wonder if people like Eero Mantyranta would be banned in this day and age for having a condition that benefits his approach to his sport. It's a natural advantage over his competitors that couldn't hope to match his red blood cell intake.
Duttee Chand is another example of a grey area. She is a woman that again has been discriminated against because of a medical condition that she was born with: hyperandrogenism. The same condition that Caster has, except there's no debate about her chromosomes.0 -
A trans woman is a trans woman. And a trans woman has an advantage over a naturally born woman in many sports, more so if they did not trans until after puberty.
Caster is not a woman but intersex. Not sure about Chand,1 -
Just examples to indicate where the line needs to be drawn.
It's a much more complicated subject than simply ban all trans women.0 - Sponsored links:
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As I have said previously, depends on the sport and the individual; including intersex etc here too.SELR_addicks said:Just examples to indicate where the line needs to be drawn.
It's a much more complicated subject than simply ban all trans women.
And in the spirit of fairness, why as post-puberty transition is likely to be a greater advantage to the athlete, not necessarily fair they can compete against those who transition pre-puberty.
It is about fairness and inclusion. I believe trans women should be able to compete in a category of women's sports that is fair on the competitors.0 -
I've just seen a couple of articles about the swimmer, Lia Thomas. I hadn't realised they still have their male genitalia.
I realise transitioning isn't instant but this has made me realise even more how challenging the situation is.
Several people have commented on the articles (corroborated by other articles) that team mates have raised concerned that she is not always careful to cover them up and is still attracted to women. I can see how this is a difficult situation in women's changing rooms in general. I think I saw another article about something similar in a gym changing room in the US and can imagine a lot of people feeling uncomfortable, if not threatened. Not sure what the answer is or how to respect everyone's rights and safety.
Genuine question - do all trans women have their male genitalia removed at some stage or by not doing does that mean they are not a trans woman as such?0 -
The vast majority don't, and in the UK there's no requirement to do so in order to get a GRC.
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I didn't know that and naively surprised. Is that not a contradiction though? I am genuinely trying to understand - how it that from the Ladyboys. And with the focus on women's safety after Sarah Everard, what is to stop a predatory man using the route to intimidate/attack women?aliwibble said:The vast majority don't, and in the UK there's no requirement to do so in order to get a GRC.2 -
I think discussing the wider societal issues is probably better done over on the HoC, on this thread: https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/88280/sex-gender-and-lgbt-issues#latest
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