Sport England report on transgender women

PrincessFiona

The report, from Sport England, concluded that trans women have an advantage in some sports, even when testosterone levels have been reduced. 

To protect female sport while also ensuring transgender participation, the report suggested that new 'universal' or 'open' categories are introduced for trans athletes.

Bedsaddick

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

PrincessFiona

I can see there is less of advantage if transitioning before puberty, but still an advantage

SoundAsa£

I agree Beds…..though I wish to establish that this is my opinion based purely on fairness to the ‘naturally born’ female competitors and nothing whatsoever to do with discriminatory intent.
Sad for all concerned but it just has to be that way.

killerandflash

PrincessFiona said:

I can see there is less of advantage if transitioning before puberty, but still an advantage

Nobody should be transitioning before puberty anyway.

Chizz

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

Would you ban a female cox in a men's rowing eight? 

SoundAsa£

Chizz said:

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

Would you ban a female cox in a men's rowing eight? 

Physicality is not an issue in that instance.

iainment

The whole debate on this is too complicated and fractious for me.

Chizz

SoundAsa£ said:

Chizz said:

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

Would you ban a female cox in a men's rowing eight? 

Physicality is not an issue in that instance.

Physicality is absolutely at the forefront of this issue.  Take two people who are matched in terms of presence, knowledge, understanding and authority, one male, one female, the only difference will be the physical size and, critically, weight of the two people.  What happens?  The female is usually chosen over the male, precisely because of her physicality and the gender-related size and weight of her body. 

In your scenario ("...out of fairness it shouldn't happen the other way round either") then men are going to be overlooked for the role of cox by women. Women's bodies are ideally matched to the requirements of the role of cox. 

If it's ok for a women to be a cox in a men's boat race (for what it's worth, I think it is), then, by extension, it should be ok for men to row in the women's boat race, since their bodies are likely to be more ideally matched to the requirements of the sport (for what it's worth, I don't think this is ok).  

In short, there's no blanket solution to the issue of gender barriers in sport. 

SoundAsa£

Chizz said:

SoundAsa£ said:

Chizz said:

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

Would you ban a female cox in a men's rowing eight? 

Physicality is not an issue in that instance.

Physicality is absolutely at the forefront of this issue.  Take two people who are matched in terms of presence, knowledge, understanding and authority, one male, one female, the only difference will be the physical size and, critically, weight of the two people.  What happens?  The female is usually chosen over the male, precisely because of her physicality and the gender-related size and weight of her body. 

In your scenario ("...out of fairness it shouldn't happen the other way round either") then men are going to be overlooked for the role of cox by women. Women's bodies are ideally matched to the requirements of the role of cox. 

If it's ok for a women to be a cox in a men's boat race (for what it's worth, I think it is), then, by extension, it should be ok for men to row in the women's boat race, since their bodies are likely to be more ideally matched to the requirements of the sport (for what it's worth, I don't think this is ok).  

In short, there's no blanket solution to the issue of gender barriers in sport. 

You’ve lost me.🤔

stop_shouting

Common sense makes a return from hibernation. Well done Sport England. 

Huskaris

This is one of those topics where it's most fun just to watch people argue, and laugh. 

Gribbo

Chizz said:

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

Would you ban a female cox in a men's rowing eight? 

Isn't that the point? These women haven't got any cox

MrOneLung

Chizz on his usual wind up. 

Leuth

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

This is too blanket for me. I think it depends on the sport and the individual. If we are to accept that trans women are women, it stands to reason that the world of sport should make an effort to as well.

sam3110

Such a grey issue, one person I saw argued that perhaps they should compete in the Paralympics, but that was quickly shot down as transitioning is not a disability, and aligning it with the Paralympic games would almost certainly reinforce the stigma attached to trans people. 

The fact of the matter is the 2 biological forms of female and male are fundamentally different in growth and development, and therefore no amount of hormone replacement therapy is going to reverse the muscle tissue development the body has already been through.

There are countless things that differentiate the genders in almost all species of natural life, from being bigger and stronger, difference in appearance, having different genitalia, the list goes on, that's (literally) life. So to be honest, I think allowing people who were assigned male at birth to compete against people assigned female at birth, no matter how negligible the difference may seem, would be giving them an unfair advantage

stop_shouting

Chizz said:

SoundAsa£ said:

Chizz said:

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

Would you ban a female cox in a men's rowing eight? 

Physicality is not an issue in that instance.

Physicality is absolutely at the forefront of this issue.  Take two people who are matched in terms of presence, knowledge, understanding and authority, one male, one female, the only difference will be the physical size and, critically, weight of the two people.  What happens?  The female is usually chosen over the male, precisely because of her physicality and the gender-related size and weight of her body. 

In your scenario ("...out of fairness it shouldn't happen the other way round either") then men are going to be overlooked for the role of cox by women. Women's bodies are ideally matched to the requirements of the role of cox. 

If it's ok for a women to be a cox in a men's boat race (for what it's worth, I think it is), then, by extension, it should be ok for men to row in the women's boat race, since their bodies are likely to be more ideally matched to the requirements of the sport (for what it's worth, I don't think this is ok).  

In short, there's no blanket solution to the issue of gender barriers in sport. 

Nonsense. Look at Sport England’s recommendations. Is that not a solution?

MrOneLung

Leuth said:

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

This is too blanket for me. I think it depends on the sport and the individual. If we are to accept that trans women are women, it stands to reason that the world of sport should make an effort to as well.

Which is why they are suggesting a sport by sport approach. 

Leuth

MrOneLung said:

Leuth said:

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

This is too blanket for me. I think it depends on the sport and the individual. If we are to accept that trans women are women, it stands to reason that the world of sport should make an effort to as well.

Which is why they are suggesting a sport by sport approach. 

Exactly, but that isn't the same as a blanket dismissal. People like Maxine Blythin (I know I refer to her every time we do this) slot neatly into women's cricket without ruining the competition; I can imagine potential mismatches if someone transitions as a pro in a different sport.

PaddyP17

stop_shouting said:

Chizz said:

SoundAsa£ said:

Chizz said:

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

Would you ban a female cox in a men's rowing eight? 

Physicality is not an issue in that instance.

Physicality is absolutely at the forefront of this issue.  Take two people who are matched in terms of presence, knowledge, understanding and authority, one male, one female, the only difference will be the physical size and, critically, weight of the two people.  What happens?  The female is usually chosen over the male, precisely because of her physicality and the gender-related size and weight of her body. 

In your scenario ("...out of fairness it shouldn't happen the other way round either") then men are going to be overlooked for the role of cox by women. Women's bodies are ideally matched to the requirements of the role of cox. 

If it's ok for a women to be a cox in a men's boat race (for what it's worth, I think it is), then, by extension, it should be ok for men to row in the women's boat race, since their bodies are likely to be more ideally matched to the requirements of the sport (for what it's worth, I don't think this is ok).  

In short, there's no blanket solution to the issue of gender barriers in sport. 

Nonsense. Look at Sport England’s recommendations. Is that not a solution?

Look at the report, which literally says there is no blanket solution. I mean, it literally says that. And it's okay to say there may be many varied solutions sport by sport, etc. I am uncomfortable with the idea of MtF trans women playing full contact sport in many scenarios tbf.

I'm also incredibly disappointed at the editorialising by the BBC headline: "Transgender inclusion, fairness and safety often cannot co-exist", says major review

This - if you didn't know it was about sport - just sounds anti-trans. And I think it's probably deliberate, given the BBC's inexcusable coverage of things like Tavistock.

There is an undercurrent of subtle - and some not so subtle - anti-trans sentiment throughout mainstream media at the moment, and it's absolutely growing. And it is really infuriating to read.

jacob_CAFC

PaddyP17 said:

stop_shouting said:

Chizz said:

SoundAsa£ said:

Chizz said:

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

Would you ban a female cox in a men's rowing eight? 

Physicality is not an issue in that instance.

Physicality is absolutely at the forefront of this issue.  Take two people who are matched in terms of presence, knowledge, understanding and authority, one male, one female, the only difference will be the physical size and, critically, weight of the two people.  What happens?  The female is usually chosen over the male, precisely because of her physicality and the gender-related size and weight of her body. 

In your scenario ("...out of fairness it shouldn't happen the other way round either") then men are going to be overlooked for the role of cox by women. Women's bodies are ideally matched to the requirements of the role of cox. 

If it's ok for a women to be a cox in a men's boat race (for what it's worth, I think it is), then, by extension, it should be ok for men to row in the women's boat race, since their bodies are likely to be more ideally matched to the requirements of the sport (for what it's worth, I don't think this is ok).  

In short, there's no blanket solution to the issue of gender barriers in sport. 

Nonsense. Look at Sport England’s recommendations. Is that not a solution?

Look at the report, which literally says there is no blanket solution. I mean, it literally says that. And it's okay to say there may be many varied solutions sport by sport, etc. I am uncomfortable with the idea of MtF trans women playing full contact sport in many scenarios tbf.

I'm also incredibly disappointed at the editorialising by the BBC headline: "Transgender inclusion, fairness and safety often cannot co-exist", says major review

This - if you didn't know it was about sport - just sounds anti-trans. And I think it's probably deliberate, given the BBC's inexcusable coverage of things like Tavistock.

There is an undercurrent of subtle - and some not so subtle - anti-trans sentiment throughout mainstream media at the moment, and it's absolutely growing. And it is really infuriating to read.

Completely agree RE the undercurrent of anti-trans sentiment. They make up such a tiny proportion of the population but just feel like there constantly stuff about them in the news. I think it's because people don't like what's different and they are easy to shoot down. If you are a trans person and you read stuff like that, you must feel like society is casting you out 

Leuth

jacob_CAFC said:

PaddyP17 said:

stop_shouting said:

Chizz said:

SoundAsa£ said:

Chizz said:

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

Would you ban a female cox in a men's rowing eight? 

Physicality is not an issue in that instance.

Physicality is absolutely at the forefront of this issue.  Take two people who are matched in terms of presence, knowledge, understanding and authority, one male, one female, the only difference will be the physical size and, critically, weight of the two people.  What happens?  The female is usually chosen over the male, precisely because of her physicality and the gender-related size and weight of her body. 

In your scenario ("...out of fairness it shouldn't happen the other way round either") then men are going to be overlooked for the role of cox by women. Women's bodies are ideally matched to the requirements of the role of cox. 

If it's ok for a women to be a cox in a men's boat race (for what it's worth, I think it is), then, by extension, it should be ok for men to row in the women's boat race, since their bodies are likely to be more ideally matched to the requirements of the sport (for what it's worth, I don't think this is ok).  

In short, there's no blanket solution to the issue of gender barriers in sport. 

Nonsense. Look at Sport England’s recommendations. Is that not a solution?

Look at the report, which literally says there is no blanket solution. I mean, it literally says that. And it's okay to say there may be many varied solutions sport by sport, etc. I am uncomfortable with the idea of MtF trans women playing full contact sport in many scenarios tbf.

I'm also incredibly disappointed at the editorialising by the BBC headline: "Transgender inclusion, fairness and safety often cannot co-exist", says major review

This - if you didn't know it was about sport - just sounds anti-trans. And I think it's probably deliberate, given the BBC's inexcusable coverage of things like Tavistock.

There is an undercurrent of subtle - and some not so subtle - anti-trans sentiment throughout mainstream media at the moment, and it's absolutely growing. And it is really infuriating to read.

Completely agree RE the undercurrent of anti-trans sentiment. They make up such a tiny proportion of the population but just feel like there constantly stuff about them in the news. I think it's because people don't like what's different and they are easy to shoot down. If you are a trans person and you read stuff like that, you must feel like society is casting you out 

I think it's more that many Gen X liberals, who fought and 'won' the progressive battles of the 1990s, feel upbraided and envious of the new wave of social justice as espoused by younger millennials and zoomers. Boils down to bitterness, basically - rather than update their own morality they attack the new ways.

Cafc43v3r

Sport sort of encapsulates the whole debate for me. 

Why do we actually have women's sport at all?  It's because 99% of sports men are "better" than women.  There are open categories in almost every sport.  We tend to refer to them as men's.

If a women is good enough to win the "mens" open golf, the world heavy weight boxing championship, the 100 meters freestyle, the 110 meter hurdles, Wimbledon, the tour de France or anything else she probably would be allowed to, in most cases.

There some archaic "men only" spaces like clubs that I think we are would all agree are wrong but there are reasons why there are things like women only gyms, women only swimming sessions.  And that reason is men.

This week of all weeks we need to all be mindful of women's rights and why they not only exist, but why they are an absolute necessity.   If women can't play women's sport with out competing against men you might as well jack it in. 

Does that make me transphobic or a TERF?  I honestly don't think so but being labeled one is, quite frankly, a price I am prepared to pay. 

stop_shouting

PaddyP17 said:

stop_shouting said:

Chizz said:

SoundAsa£ said:

Chizz said:

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

Would you ban a female cox in a men's rowing eight? 

Physicality is not an issue in that instance.

Physicality is absolutely at the forefront of this issue.  Take two people who are matched in terms of presence, knowledge, understanding and authority, one male, one female, the only difference will be the physical size and, critically, weight of the two people.  What happens?  The female is usually chosen over the male, precisely because of her physicality and the gender-related size and weight of her body. 

In your scenario ("...out of fairness it shouldn't happen the other way round either") then men are going to be overlooked for the role of cox by women. Women's bodies are ideally matched to the requirements of the role of cox. 

If it's ok for a women to be a cox in a men's boat race (for what it's worth, I think it is), then, by extension, it should be ok for men to row in the women's boat race, since their bodies are likely to be more ideally matched to the requirements of the sport (for what it's worth, I don't think this is ok).  

In short, there's no blanket solution to the issue of gender barriers in sport. 

Nonsense. Look at Sport England’s recommendations. Is that not a solution?

Look at the report, which literally says there is no blanket solution. I mean, it literally says that. And it's okay to say there may be many varied solutions sport by sport, etc. I am uncomfortable with the idea of MtF trans women playing full contact sport in many scenarios tbf.

I'm also incredibly disappointed at the editorialising by the BBC headline: "Transgender inclusion, fairness and safety often cannot co-exist", says major review

This - if you didn't know it was about sport - just sounds anti-trans. And I think it's probably deliberate, given the BBC's inexcusable coverage of things like Tavistock.

There is an undercurrent of subtle - and some not so subtle - anti-trans sentiment throughout mainstream media at the moment, and it's absolutely growing. And it is really infuriating to read.

Totally disagree. It’s like you’re looking for anti Trans sentiment. Don’t worry about buzzwords like “blanket solutions”. What they have recommended is a solution. You CAN have solutions to these difficult situations. Granted, it won’t please everyone but it doesn’t have to be binary. I’m sure you’ll agree that the Laurel Hubbard situation benefited no one. It wasn’t progress and Laurel said afterward that they just wanted to go home. 

Bedsaddick

Chizz said:

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

Would you ban a female cox in a men's rowing eight? 

Chizz said:

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

Would you ban a female cox in a men's rowing eight? 

No . What has that got to do with trans ? 

aliwibble

Chizz said:

If it's ok for a women to be a cox in a men's boat race (for what it's worth, I think it is), then, by extension, it should be ok for men to row in the women's boat race, since their bodies are likely to be more ideally matched to the requirements of the sport (for what it's worth, I don't think this is ok). 

WTAF are you talking about Chizz? The marginal gains from having a lighter cox in a men's 8 are nothing like the same as having the additional power of a male rower in a female boat.

PaddyP17

stop_shouting said:

PaddyP17 said:

stop_shouting said:

Chizz said:

SoundAsa£ said:

Chizz said:

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

Would you ban a female cox in a men's rowing eight? 

Physicality is not an issue in that instance.

Physicality is absolutely at the forefront of this issue.  Take two people who are matched in terms of presence, knowledge, understanding and authority, one male, one female, the only difference will be the physical size and, critically, weight of the two people.  What happens?  The female is usually chosen over the male, precisely because of her physicality and the gender-related size and weight of her body. 

In your scenario ("...out of fairness it shouldn't happen the other way round either") then men are going to be overlooked for the role of cox by women. Women's bodies are ideally matched to the requirements of the role of cox. 

If it's ok for a women to be a cox in a men's boat race (for what it's worth, I think it is), then, by extension, it should be ok for men to row in the women's boat race, since their bodies are likely to be more ideally matched to the requirements of the sport (for what it's worth, I don't think this is ok).  

In short, there's no blanket solution to the issue of gender barriers in sport. 

Nonsense. Look at Sport England’s recommendations. Is that not a solution?

Look at the report, which literally says there is no blanket solution. I mean, it literally says that. And it's okay to say there may be many varied solutions sport by sport, etc. I am uncomfortable with the idea of MtF trans women playing full contact sport in many scenarios tbf.

I'm also incredibly disappointed at the editorialising by the BBC headline: "Transgender inclusion, fairness and safety often cannot co-exist", says major review

This - if you didn't know it was about sport - just sounds anti-trans. And I think it's probably deliberate, given the BBC's inexcusable coverage of things like Tavistock.

There is an undercurrent of subtle - and some not so subtle - anti-trans sentiment throughout mainstream media at the moment, and it's absolutely growing. And it is really infuriating to read.

Totally disagree. It’s like you’re looking for anti Trans sentiment. Don’t worry about buzzwords like “blanket solutions”. What they have recommended is a solution. You CAN have solutions to these difficult situations. Granted, it won’t please everyone but it doesn’t have to be binary. I’m sure you’ll agree that the Laurel Hubbard situation benefited no one. It wasn’t progress and Laurel said afterward that they just wanted to go home. 

Laurel Hubbard competing as a trans woman in a woman's sport on the world's biggest stage is a hugely important landmark.

Was it... right? I don't know enough to pass comment. But I think it probably benefited trans people, who are grossly underrepresented in sport, to have some visibility - despite the attendant brouhaha.

Cafc43v3r

aliwibble said:

Chizz said:

If it's ok for a women to be a cox in a men's boat race (for what it's worth, I think it is), then, by extension, it should be ok for men to row in the women's boat race, since their bodies are likely to be more ideally matched to the requirements of the sport (for what it's worth, I don't think this is ok). 

WTAF are you talking about Chizz? The marginal gains from having a lighter cox in a men's 8 are nothing like the same as having the additional power of a male rower in a female boat.

To be fair the Cox would have their work cut out if you put a man in a womens boat.  Would be impossible to keep the thing in a straight line. 

stop_shouting

PaddyP17 said:

stop_shouting said:

PaddyP17 said:

stop_shouting said:

Chizz said:

SoundAsa£ said:

Chizz said:

Bedsaddick said:

Anyone born a man should never be able to compete in women’s sport for obvious reasons and out of fairness it shouldn’t happen the other way round either . 

Just my opinion. 

Would you ban a female cox in a men's rowing eight? 

Physicality is not an issue in that instance.

Physicality is absolutely at the forefront of this issue.  Take two people who are matched in terms of presence, knowledge, understanding and authority, one male, one female, the only difference will be the physical size and, critically, weight of the two people.  What happens?  The female is usually chosen over the male, precisely because of her physicality and the gender-related size and weight of her body. 

In your scenario ("...out of fairness it shouldn't happen the other way round either") then men are going to be overlooked for the role of cox by women. Women's bodies are ideally matched to the requirements of the role of cox. 

If it's ok for a women to be a cox in a men's boat race (for what it's worth, I think it is), then, by extension, it should be ok for men to row in the women's boat race, since their bodies are likely to be more ideally matched to the requirements of the sport (for what it's worth, I don't think this is ok).  

In short, there's no blanket solution to the issue of gender barriers in sport. 

Nonsense. Look at Sport England’s recommendations. Is that not a solution?

Look at the report, which literally says there is no blanket solution. I mean, it literally says that. And it's okay to say there may be many varied solutions sport by sport, etc. I am uncomfortable with the idea of MtF trans women playing full contact sport in many scenarios tbf.

I'm also incredibly disappointed at the editorialising by the BBC headline: "Transgender inclusion, fairness and safety often cannot co-exist", says major review

This - if you didn't know it was about sport - just sounds anti-trans. And I think it's probably deliberate, given the BBC's inexcusable coverage of things like Tavistock.

There is an undercurrent of subtle - and some not so subtle - anti-trans sentiment throughout mainstream media at the moment, and it's absolutely growing. And it is really infuriating to read.

Totally disagree. It’s like you’re looking for anti Trans sentiment. Don’t worry about buzzwords like “blanket solutions”. What they have recommended is a solution. You CAN have solutions to these difficult situations. Granted, it won’t please everyone but it doesn’t have to be binary. I’m sure you’ll agree that the Laurel Hubbard situation benefited no one. It wasn’t progress and Laurel said afterward that they just wanted to go home. 

Laurel Hubbard competing as a trans woman in a woman's sport on the world's biggest stage is a hugely important landmark.

Was it... right? I don't know enough to pass comment. But I think it probably benefited trans people, who are grossly underrepresented in sport, to have some visibility - despite the attendant brouhaha.

I think the solutions that Sport England have recommended will give Trans athletes positive,  and therefore progressive visibility, than what happened with Laurel Hubbard in Tokyo. 

SuedeAdidas

Uh-oh…..

aliwibble

Cafc43v3r said:

aliwibble said:

Chizz said:

If it's ok for a women to be a cox in a men's boat race (for what it's worth, I think it is), then, by extension, it should be ok for men to row in the women's boat race, since their bodies are likely to be more ideally matched to the requirements of the sport (for what it's worth, I don't think this is ok). 

WTAF are you talking about Chizz? The marginal gains from having a lighter cox in a men's 8 are nothing like the same as having the additional power of a male rower in a female boat.

To be fair the Cox would have their work cut out if you put a man in a womens boat.  Would be impossible to keep the thing in a straight line. 

I can see it being a nightmare on straight lane courses like the Olympics, but on the traditional Boat Race course it might be more interesting. Use the additional power to get out in front, and then build the weave into your race strategy.