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Wayne Rooney's Derby County - not any more (p41)
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Or they might think its better to get 5, 10 or what ever than nothing. Also worth considering how much tax Derby pay, and generate a year. If you include VAT, PAYE, NI etc etc. How much of the total tax bill is 20 million? I have no idea.killerandflash said:
They might feel that the loss of £20m is worth it to ensure clubs in the future don't try the same thingCafc43v3r said:
It's not as clear cut as that though. The option isn't pay HMRC £20 million or carry on. They can't pay HMRC anything if they are liquidated or not, as it stands.killerandflash said:
If HMRC let one club off their tax bill, that sets a precedent for every other club to spend more money on transfers and wages, and not pay their taxesCafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
Lets face it, most people didn't notice Bury going under. Wayne Rooney's Derby County closing would send shockwaves through football0 -
The players on Derby's books must have some value.Cafc43v3r said:
Which is what happens to other businesses, HMRC will push for liquidation if its the best way to get as much of the tax as possible. There is literally nothing to liquidate.ShootersHillGuru said:
Man commits a crime and gets a prison sentence leaving a wife and three children with no husband, father or income. Does he get let off because there are no winners ? No of course not. You’ve already suggested £20 million isn’t very much worth bothering about. I beg to differ. It’s a lot of money and better off in the pockets of the NHS, Armed forces or Police service. Derby County are just another badly run, cheating business and deserve no more respect, sympathy or allowance given. If they can’t pay then do what would be done to any other business in the same situation.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?1 -
Not if they are liquidated they don't.SantaClaus said:
The players on Derby's books must have some value.Cafc43v3r said:
Which is what happens to other businesses, HMRC will push for liquidation if its the best way to get as much of the tax as possible. There is literally nothing to liquidate.ShootersHillGuru said:
Man commits a crime and gets a prison sentence leaving a wife and three children with no husband, father or income. Does he get let off because there are no winners ? No of course not. You’ve already suggested £20 million isn’t very much worth bothering about. I beg to differ. It’s a lot of money and better off in the pockets of the NHS, Armed forces or Police service. Derby County are just another badly run, cheating business and deserve no more respect, sympathy or allowance given. If they can’t pay then do what would be done to any other business in the same situation.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?0 -
So Derby have assets they're refusing to sell whilst at the same asking to be let off their tax bill. I hope HMRC send them a box of matches.Cafc43v3r said:
Not if they are liquidated they don't.SantaClaus said:
The players on Derby's books must have some value.Cafc43v3r said:
Which is what happens to other businesses, HMRC will push for liquidation if its the best way to get as much of the tax as possible. There is literally nothing to liquidate.ShootersHillGuru said:
Man commits a crime and gets a prison sentence leaving a wife and three children with no husband, father or income. Does he get let off because there are no winners ? No of course not. You’ve already suggested £20 million isn’t very much worth bothering about. I beg to differ. It’s a lot of money and better off in the pockets of the NHS, Armed forces or Police service. Derby County are just another badly run, cheating business and deserve no more respect, sympathy or allowance given. If they can’t pay then do what would be done to any other business in the same situation.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?2 -
Then any players they have worth anything should be sold off at knockdown prices if necessary in January. Wouldn’t it be negligent of the administrators not to do so ? Allowing them to walk on liquidation would be a real insult to the creditors.Cafc43v3r said:
Not if they are liquidated they don't.SantaClaus said:
The players on Derby's books must have some value.Cafc43v3r said:
Which is what happens to other businesses, HMRC will push for liquidation if its the best way to get as much of the tax as possible. There is literally nothing to liquidate.ShootersHillGuru said:
Man commits a crime and gets a prison sentence leaving a wife and three children with no husband, father or income. Does he get let off because there are no winners ? No of course not. You’ve already suggested £20 million isn’t very much worth bothering about. I beg to differ. It’s a lot of money and better off in the pockets of the NHS, Armed forces or Police service. Derby County are just another badly run, cheating business and deserve no more respect, sympathy or allowance given. If they can’t pay then do what would be done to any other business in the same situation.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?5 -
Mitigation is a factor in most sentencing and personal circumstances are considered although not to the extent of being "let off". The punishment might be reduced or postponed. But Derby isn't a criminal case.ShootersHillGuru said:
Man commits a crime and gets a prison sentence leaving a wife and three children with no husband, father or income. Does he get let off because there are no winners ? No of course not. You’ve already suggested £20 million isn’t very much worth bothering about. I beg to differ. It’s a lot of money and better off in the pockets of the NHS, Armed forces or Police service. Derby County are just another badly run, cheating business and deserve no more respect, sympathy or allowance given. If they can’t pay then do what would be done to any other business in the same situation.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?1 -
The tax payer wins because it will stop this happening again and will prevent precedence being set. If derby get away with not paying their tax bill, why should I pay tax? Let hmrc take me to court where the case of derby county can be setCafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
they cheated, if they go pop as a result of their cheating then hopefully that will deter others from trying to cheat6 -
Looking at Derby's contracted players they have a whole bunch (16) with contracts expiring in the summer of 2022, so these won't be worth much at all. Tom Lawrence is one they might get a bit of money for.
Irish international Jason Knight's contract expires in 2023.
Youngster Max Bird and Polish internationals Jozwiak and Bielik (who is probably now worth less than the 8m they still owe due to two ACL injuries) all expire in 2024.
So there's not really a lot of money they're going to get from sales.1 -
Tax gets written off every day, try one of the probably millions of cases as an authority and let me know how you get on.Todds_right_hook said:
The tax payer wins because it will stop this happening again and will prevent precedence being set. If derby get away with not paying their tax bill, why should I pay tax? Let hmrc take me to court where the case of derby county can be setCafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
they cheated, if they go pop as a result of their cheating then hopefully that will deter others from trying to cheat
The options aren't HMRC get 20 million Or Derby get liquidated.
If a new owner comes in and can agree, let's say 30p in the £1 with the creditors, including HMRC isn't that a result for everyone? At least a better result than anything else that can happen now?
The directors should be banged up for trading when insolvent, but that's a different issue.0 -
Tom Lawrence for example could be sold now to bring in some money. December off, then free to play in January for his new club0
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Someone has got to pay for him, knowing he could be free come January.killerandflash said:Tom Lawrence for example could be sold now to bring in some money. December off, then free to play in January for his new club0 -
This.ShootersHillGuru said:
Then any players they have worth anything should be sold off at knockdown prices if necessary in January. Wouldn’t it be negligent of the administrators not to do so ? Allowing them to walk on liquidation would be a real insult to the creditors.Cafc43v3r said:
Not if they are liquidated they don't.SantaClaus said:
The players on Derby's books must have some value.Cafc43v3r said:
Which is what happens to other businesses, HMRC will push for liquidation if its the best way to get as much of the tax as possible. There is literally nothing to liquidate.ShootersHillGuru said:
Man commits a crime and gets a prison sentence leaving a wife and three children with no husband, father or income. Does he get let off because there are no winners ? No of course not. You’ve already suggested £20 million isn’t very much worth bothering about. I beg to differ. It’s a lot of money and better off in the pockets of the NHS, Armed forces or Police service. Derby County are just another badly run, cheating business and deserve no more respect, sympathy or allowance given. If they can’t pay then do what would be done to any other business in the same situation.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
The players are really the only assets they have left. The Administrators are duty bound to get what they can to pay the creditors. In January they should be doing their utmost to raise capital. If Derby have to sell their entire 1st team squad & play their U23's then so be it.8 -
The sad thing here is that it is the fans that are going to suffer and it is not of their doing. They didnt run the club on a collision course to disaster did they ? I dont get how the directors can seemingly walk away without recourse! If I ran my business in such a manner that led to this outcome I'm sure a court would find me negligent in my duties as a director.0
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Do they even own the ground? I thought MSD Capital had a charge over it as part of a loan agreement?0
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For all those saying HMRC will not do a deal, don’t be surprised if they do, 20 p in the pound is better than nothing.
Who knows, but they have done in the past and will do in the future I’m afraid, let’s see.3 -
There have been a number of non-league clubs which have gone under in the last 10 years or so and HMRC's position has been consistent, so it would be very surprising if they change that. Their approach has always been that they will oppose any CVA deal which offers them less than what they're owed, but that if the creditors overall vote to accept a lower amount then, after voting no, they will accept the money. So if they have enough of the debt to block a CVA (as they appear to have here) then it's thank you and goodnight.
The reason for this as several people have suggested above, is that they want to put the fear of God into businesses tempted to keep themselves running by not paying their taxes. In the long run, that gets them more money than if they agreed to negotiate. Their option hare are to accept 25% of what they're owed and tell all football clubs that it's possible to negotiate about taxes, or to get nothing and tell the clubs that you don't mess around with the taxman.
Obviously this is bad news for any local business that's owed £4k by the club and would have been willing to accept £1k instead of getting pretty much nothing if the club's liquidated, but that's how it goes.10 -
Thanks for that assessment. It’s also a clear message to clubs to run their business properly. Of course I don’t want any club to go out of business but sometimes I hate what football has become. Getting rid of chancers and crooks is essential and if it costs Derby their football club, so be it.Swindon_Addick said:There have been a number of non-league clubs which have gone under in the last 10 years or so and HMRC's position has been consistent, so it would be very surprising if they change that. Their approach has always been that they will oppose any CVA deal which offers them less than what they're owed, but that if the creditors overall vote to accept a lower amount then, after voting no, they will accept the money. So if they have enough of the debt to block a CVA (as they appear to have here) then it's thank you and goodnight.
The reason for this as several people have suggested above, is that they want to put the fear of God into businesses tempted to keep themselves running by not paying their taxes. In the long run, that gets them more money than if they agreed to negotiate. Their option hare are to accept 25% of what they're owed and tell all football clubs that it's possible to negotiate about taxes, or to get nothing and tell the clubs that you don't mess around with the taxman.
Obviously this is bad news for any local business that's owed £4k by the club and would have been willing to accept £1k instead of getting pretty much nothing if the club's liquidated, but that's how it goes.6 -
But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue. It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.addick1956 said:
It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s. We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.
Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't. I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families. Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down. I don't see how this is any different.0 -
But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed.Cafc43v3r said:
But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue. It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.addick1956 said:
It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s. We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.
Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't. I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families. Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down. I don't see how this is any different.
In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.2 - Sponsored links:
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Fair point the factory anology is out dated. The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation.randy andy said:
But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed.Cafc43v3r said:
But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue. It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.addick1956 said:
It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s. We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.
Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't. I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families. Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down. I don't see how this is any different.
In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case? "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby. We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club. Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!!0 -
Other clubs struggled and couldn’t afford to run the club day to day, derby chose to spend shit loads of money they didn’t have on the team whilst not paying their tax (amongst other things) hoping that they’d reach the PL and that’d balance the booksCafc43v3r said:
Fair point the factory anology is out dated. The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation.randy andy said:
But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed.Cafc43v3r said:
But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue. It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.addick1956 said:
It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s. We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.
Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't. I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families. Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down. I don't see how this is any different.
In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case? "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby. We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club. Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!!
fuck em7 -
Bury overspent, the owner bailed, the new owner couldn't/wouldn't pay the debts. What's the ethical difference?cafcdave123 said:
Other clubs struggled and couldn’t afford to run the club day to day, derby chose to spend shit loads of money they didn’t have on the team whilst not hoping that they’d reach the PL and that’s balance the booksCafc43v3r said:
Fair point the factory anology is out dated. The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation.randy andy said:
But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed.Cafc43v3r said:
But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue. It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.addick1956 said:
It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s. We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.
Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't. I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families. Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down. I don't see how this is any different.
In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case? "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby. We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club. Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!!
fuck em
137 years of football in a city shouldn't be able to be wiped away through 1 man's reckless spending, the same way someone shouldn't be able to bankrupt any club for personal gain.
Liquidation is a no win situation.0 -
That’s surely irrelevant. People want football clubs saved and up to amount treated differently because it’s emotional. Who really cares if the pork pie factory goes out of business. Not many people get emotional about pork pies to write to their MP. If the Factory is badly run it goes pop and that’s it. For some reason Derby County gets a leg up from the tax payer ? Really ?
Fair point the factory anology is out dated. The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation.randy andy said:
But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed.Cafc43v3r said:
But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue. It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.addick1956 said:
It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s. We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.
Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't. I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families. Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down. I don't see how this is any different.
In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case? "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby. We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club. Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!!0 -
if you're talking specifically about bury, there isn't a difference, refuse to pay and you're on your own and out of business.Cafc43v3r said:
Bury overspent, the owner bailed, the new owner couldn't/wouldn't pay the debts. What's the ethical difference?cafcdave123 said:
Other clubs struggled and couldn’t afford to run the club day to day, derby chose to spend shit loads of money they didn’t have on the team whilst not hoping that they’d reach the PL and that’s balance the booksCafc43v3r said:
Fair point the factory anology is out dated. The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation.randy andy said:
But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed.Cafc43v3r said:
But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue. It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.addick1956 said:
It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s. We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.
Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't. I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families. Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down. I don't see how this is any different.
In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case? "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby. We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club. Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!!
fuck em
137 years of football in a city shouldn't be able to be wiped away through 1 man's reckless spending, the same way someone shouldn't be able to bankrupt any club for personal gain.
Liquidation is a no win situation.
the blame should lie at the door of the FA for letting clubs get away with this shit not the tax man.2 -
All of the above is exactly my point though it is the fans that will pay the price if only an emotional one.
If I won the Euromillions tonight and offered TS a load of cash to buy him out and he accepted, then I went on a looney spending spree gambling on the club reaching the Premiership before the £ runs out, what say do any supporters have in that ? when it all goes tits up as is the case here it is the lifelong fans that will suffer through no fault of their own. I'm not saying Derby should be saved by the way as I personally think there is only one way for them to go and that is bust1 -
But that horse has bolted you can should at the FA or the EFL all you like but you can't undo what's happened.cafcdave123 said:
if you're talking specifically about bury, there isn't a difference, refuse to pay and you're on your own and out of business.Cafc43v3r said:
Bury overspent, the owner bailed, the new owner couldn't/wouldn't pay the debts. What's the ethical difference?cafcdave123 said:
Other clubs struggled and couldn’t afford to run the club day to day, derby chose to spend shit loads of money they didn’t have on the team whilst not hoping that they’d reach the PL and that’s balance the booksCafc43v3r said:
Fair point the factory anology is out dated. The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation.randy andy said:
But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed.Cafc43v3r said:
But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue. It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.addick1956 said:
It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s. We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.
Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't. I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families. Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down. I don't see how this is any different.
In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case? "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby. We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club. Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!!
fuck em
137 years of football in a city shouldn't be able to be wiped away through 1 man's reckless spending, the same way someone shouldn't be able to bankrupt any club for personal gain.
Liquidation is a no win situation.
the blame should lie at the door of the FA for letting clubs get away with this shit not the tax man.
The tax now will only be paid, in full, if someone is prepared to come in and take over all the debt. Morris should have to pay it but you can't enforce that due to limited liability.
If you liquidated Derby now you would get hardly anything. If the creditors, including HMRC, can agree to a CVA, that results in a take over, that's a win win isn't it?
The football club survives, even if it is on - 20 in league 2, the tax payer loses less, the people, or at least some of them, that work for Derby can keep their jobs and the city keeps its football team.0 -
so you would like Derby County treated more leniently than other businesses in this country purely because they are a football club?Cafc43v3r said:
But that horse has bolted you can should at the FA or the EFL all you like but you can't undo what's happened.cafcdave123 said:
if you're talking specifically about bury, there isn't a difference, refuse to pay and you're on your own and out of business.Cafc43v3r said:
Bury overspent, the owner bailed, the new owner couldn't/wouldn't pay the debts. What's the ethical difference?cafcdave123 said:
Other clubs struggled and couldn’t afford to run the club day to day, derby chose to spend shit loads of money they didn’t have on the team whilst not hoping that they’d reach the PL and that’s balance the booksCafc43v3r said:
Fair point the factory anology is out dated. The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation.randy andy said:
But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed.Cafc43v3r said:
But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue. It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.addick1956 said:
It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s. We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.
Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't. I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families. Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down. I don't see how this is any different.
In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case? "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby. We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club. Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!!
fuck em
137 years of football in a city shouldn't be able to be wiped away through 1 man's reckless spending, the same way someone shouldn't be able to bankrupt any club for personal gain.
Liquidation is a no win situation.
the blame should lie at the door of the FA for letting clubs get away with this shit not the tax man.
The tax now will only be paid, in full, if someone is prepared to come in and take over all the debt. Morris should have to pay it but you can't enforce that due to limited liability.
If you liquidated Derby now you would get hardly anything. If the creditors, including HMRC, can agree to a CVA, that results in a take over, that's a win win isn't it?
The football club survives, even if it is on - 20 in league 2, the tax payer loses less, the people, or at least some of them, that work for Derby can keep their jobs and the city keeps its football team.
sorry but I'm sticking with my original answer, fuck em1 -
Well loads of people wanted all the laws in the land waved when it suited us...........cafcdave123 said:
so you would like Derby County treated more leniently than other businesses in this country purely because they are a football club?Cafc43v3r said:
But that horse has bolted you can should at the FA or the EFL all you like but you can't undo what's happened.cafcdave123 said:
if you're talking specifically about bury, there isn't a difference, refuse to pay and you're on your own and out of business.Cafc43v3r said:
Bury overspent, the owner bailed, the new owner couldn't/wouldn't pay the debts. What's the ethical difference?cafcdave123 said:
Other clubs struggled and couldn’t afford to run the club day to day, derby chose to spend shit loads of money they didn’t have on the team whilst not hoping that they’d reach the PL and that’s balance the booksCafc43v3r said:
Fair point the factory anology is out dated. The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation.randy andy said:
But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed.Cafc43v3r said:
But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue. It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.addick1956 said:
It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s. We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.
Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't. I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families. Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down. I don't see how this is any different.
In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case? "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby. We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club. Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!!
fuck em
137 years of football in a city shouldn't be able to be wiped away through 1 man's reckless spending, the same way someone shouldn't be able to bankrupt any club for personal gain.
Liquidation is a no win situation.
the blame should lie at the door of the FA for letting clubs get away with this shit not the tax man.
The tax now will only be paid, in full, if someone is prepared to come in and take over all the debt. Morris should have to pay it but you can't enforce that due to limited liability.
If you liquidated Derby now you would get hardly anything. If the creditors, including HMRC, can agree to a CVA, that results in a take over, that's a win win isn't it?
The football club survives, even if it is on - 20 in league 2, the tax payer loses less, the people, or at least some of them, that work for Derby can keep their jobs and the city keeps its football team.
sorry but I'm sticking with my original answer, fuck em
No but if a business is viable, but poorly managed, and someone is prepared to take it over as a going concern through a CVA and the bloker is HMRC, who have the choice of nothing or something, as is the case here. Then yes I think all businesses should be treated this way. On the basis that the person/people responsible for it are held to account and don't benefit from it. Preferably with plenty of thinking time at her majesty's pleasure.0 -
But it already has. That's the point. There's no exemption due to age or sentimentality. It's a long established club yes but it's now insolvent and with no value.Cafc43v3r said:
Bury overspent, the owner bailed, the new owner couldn't/wouldn't pay the debts. What's the ethical difference?cafcdave123 said:
Other clubs struggled and couldn’t afford to run the club day to day, derby chose to spend shit loads of money they didn’t have on the team whilst not hoping that they’d reach the PL and that’s balance the booksCafc43v3r said:
Fair point the factory anology is out dated. The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation.randy andy said:
But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed.Cafc43v3r said:
But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue. It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.addick1956 said:
It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s. We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.
Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't. I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families. Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down. I don't see how this is any different.
In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case? "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby. We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club. Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!!
fuck em
137 years of football in a city shouldn't be able to be wiped away through 1 man's reckless spending, the same way someone shouldn't be able to bankrupt any club for personal gain.
Liquidation is a no win situation.
It is terrible for the supporters but that doesn't mean that any other business in the sane position would be saved, and nor should they.2
