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Wayne Rooney's Derby County - not any more (p41)
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Could they have factored the money against money coming in such as next instalment of TV money?Pedro45 said:
But what collateral do they have if they default. Sorry, we went bust, you are not going to get your money, or here's Wayne Rooney, he'll do a PA for you??? You must be mad to do that with your money...
A bank wouldn’t, but there are lots of alternative lenders out there, but would charge a penal rate of interest - that said, you would need big balls to lend them more money !!"The administrators had previously stated they needed to take further loans out to allow the club to fulfil their fixtures."
What bank would loan the money to a company in administration? I could never understand this!0 -
It seems the loan they got was from the lender they owe a huge amount to, so the lender is probably calculating that they have a decent chance of getting more of their money back if Derby survive and get taken over, while they lose the lot if they pull the plug now.0
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Exactly, it’s the old story - if you owe the bank £1000, they’ve got you by the balls. If you owe them a million it’s the other way round.Swindon_Addick said:It seems the loan they got was from the lender they owe a huge amount to, so the lender is probably calculating that they have a decent chance of getting more of their money back if Derby survive and get taken over, while they lose the lot if they pull the plug now.1 -
Seems unlikely to me. It would be creating a preference and go against the pari passu concept leading up to and during insolvency processes.Gary Poole said:
Could they have factored the money against money coming in such as next instalment of TV money?Pedro45 said:
But what collateral do they have if they default. Sorry, we went bust, you are not going to get your money, or here's Wayne Rooney, he'll do a PA for you??? You must be mad to do that with your money...
A bank wouldn’t, but there are lots of alternative lenders out there, but would charge a penal rate of interest - that said, you would need big balls to lend them more money !!"The administrators had previously stated they needed to take further loans out to allow the club to fulfil their fixtures."
What bank would loan the money to a company in administration? I could never understand this!0 -
Am I right in thinking the administrators couldn't actually get rid of Rooney unless they pay up his contract? I know they might try and negotiate but if he dug his heels in and said he wanted paying off I assume he couldn't be made redundant with him being contracted for a set number of years?0
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Surprised it is "only" that much tbh. Annualized that is what, £6.5M? We lose £10-12M pa.0
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I’m not sure why not. He’s not playing staff. Having said that, if the agreement really is that someone else pays his wages, why get rid of him if you have to pay his replacement.Notts_Addick said:Am I right in thinking the administrators couldn't actually get rid of Rooney unless they pay up his contract? I know they might try and negotiate but if he dug his heels in and said he wanted paying off I assume he couldn't be made redundant with him being contracted for a set number of years?0 -
They could try and use "public pressure" though. Morally, a fabulously wealthy individual like Rooney should surely consider whether his inflated salary could cause the demise of a major football club.Notts_Addick said:Am I right in thinking the administrators couldn't actually get rid of Rooney unless they pay up his contract? I know they might try and negotiate but if he dug his heels in and said he wanted paying off I assume he couldn't be made redundant with him being contracted for a set number of years?
If that happened, his reputation in the game would be ruined forever0 -
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-10263765/Derby-face-LIQUIDATION-unless-HMRC-agree-write-debt.htmlEXCLUSIVE: Derby face LIQUIDATION unless HMRC agree to write off more than £20MILLION of debt, prospective buyers fear... leaving club 'sleepwalking' towards oblivionDerby County have been docked 21 points so far this season by the EFLUS businessman Chris Kirchner is the main party interested in a takeoverBut prospective buyers of Derby fear the club is in danger of liquidationClub owes around £29m to HMRC and total debts amount to almost £60mDerby are currently bottom of the Championship, 19 points adrift of safety
No way will HMRC let a club off, as then everyone will want to have their tax bill reduced2 -
Other clubs and current and former players/managers must be lower down the pecking order than HMRC. If someone has to whistle for their money it surely has to be them rather than the taxman.killerandflash said:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-10263765/Derby-face-LIQUIDATION-unless-HMRC-agree-write-debt.htmlEXCLUSIVE: Derby face LIQUIDATION unless HMRC agree to write off more than £20MILLION of debt, prospective buyers fear... leaving club 'sleepwalking' towards oblivionDerby County have been docked 21 points so far this season by the EFLUS businessman Chris Kirchner is the main party interested in a takeoverBut prospective buyers of Derby fear the club is in danger of liquidationClub owes around £29m to HMRC and total debts amount to almost £60mDerby are currently bottom of the Championship, 19 points adrift of safety
No way will HMRC let a club off, as then everyone will want to have their tax bill reduced1 - Sponsored links:
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Relegate them into the national league .. don’t they will owe Arsenal 8 mill for Belik
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As Roman Emperors would consign the gladiators to their demise…
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Not sure why the taxpayer should foot the bill for someone to inevitably come in and rescue Derby County and for them to carry on as if nothing has happened. I’ll actually be very annoyed if HMRC write this off. The country is paying for the financial consequences of a pandemic. £20 million pounds is not an insignificant sum of money to write off.17
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Complete non story. If any business doesn’t pay the taxman they will get closed down. Just negotiating strategy. Do hope the EFL make it clear that things aren’t sorted by end of the season, boot them out of the competition. Can’t be starting the new season with court cases or non playing matches like Bury.4
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HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.1 -
They do yes, but Arsenal agreed to help them out by letting them defer the payment that was due last summer.RonnieMoore said:Relegate them into the national league .. don’t they will owe Arsenal 8 mill for Belik0 -
The administrators might be hoping for this, but I can't see them having a cat in hells chance.ShootersHillGuru said:Not sure why the taxpayer should foot the bill for someone to inevitably come in and rescue Derby County and for them to carry on as if nothing has happened. I’ll actually be very annoyed if HMRC write this off. The country is paying for the financial consequences of a pandemic. £20 million pounds is not an insignificant sum of money to write off.0 -
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.16 -
Well if it is let them off the tax bill and let them continue or enforce the tax bill and send them into liquidation then I vote for liquidation6
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It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
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their owner when he sells the ground (that he bought off of the club) to developers.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?0 -
No one let Macclesfield or Bury off. Unfortunately this does happen. Derby will be reborn and back in the football league in no time.6
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HMRC will lose far more if they let Derby off their tax bill and thereby set a precedent. Btw can't the property deals be reversed if they've been engineered to swerve the taxman?Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?6 -
If HMRC let one club off their tax bill, that sets a precedent for every other club to spend more money on transfers and wages, and not pay their taxesCafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?12 -
I'm flattered.killerandflash said:
If HMRC let one club off their tax bill, that sets a precedent for every other club to spend more money on transfers and wages, and not pay their taxesCafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?1 -
Man commits a crime and gets a prison sentence leaving a wife and three children with no husband, father or income. Does he get let off because there are no winners ? No of course not. You’ve already suggested £20 million isn’t very much worth bothering about. I beg to differ. It’s a lot of money and better off in the pockets of the NHS, Armed forces or Police service. Derby County are just another badly run, cheating business and deserve no more respect, sympathy or allowance given. If they can’t pay then do what would be done to any other business in the same situation.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?14 -
It's not as clear cut as that though. The option isn't pay HMRC £20 million or carry on. They can't pay HMRC anything if they are liquidated or not, as it stands.killerandflash said:
If HMRC let one club off their tax bill, that sets a precedent for every other club to spend more money on transfers and wages, and not pay their taxesCafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?0 -
Which is what happens to other businesses, HMRC will push for liquidation if its the best way to get as much of the tax as possible. There is literally nothing to liquidate.ShootersHillGuru said:
Man commits a crime and gets a prison sentence leaving a wife and three children with no husband, father or income. Does he get let off because there are no winners ? No of course not. You’ve already suggested £20 million isn’t very much worth bothering about. I beg to differ. It’s a lot of money and better off in the pockets of the NHS, Armed forces or Police service. Derby County are just another badly run, cheating business and deserve no more respect, sympathy or allowance given. If they can’t pay then do what would be done to any other business in the same situation.Cafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?0 -
Let's hope they settle their £8k debt with St John's Ambulances as well.
At least the Palace fans clubbed together to pay their bill when Jordan bailed out.5 -
They might feel that the loss of £20m is worth it to ensure clubs in the future don't try the same thingCafc43v3r said:
It's not as clear cut as that though. The option isn't pay HMRC £20 million or carry on. They can't pay HMRC anything if they are liquidated or not, as it stands.killerandflash said:
If HMRC let one club off their tax bill, that sets a precedent for every other club to spend more money on transfers and wages, and not pay their taxesCafc43v3r said:
It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it.ShootersHillGuru said:
Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.Cafc43v3r said:HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.
The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.
If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void. There are no other meaningful assets. HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing.
£20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year. On a yield of over 800 billion. That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.
There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess.
The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all. Not a penny. And a city loses its football club. Not sure who wins in that scenario?
Lets face it, most people didn't notice Bury going under. Wayne Rooney's Derby County closing would send shockwaves through football4
