It makes maximum sense financially to get full use of the ground. The limiter to that has always been the pitch and what it can take but if that is resolved it has a logic to it for me. I suppose the next question is can the new improved pitch take more football and Rugby? We haven't seen it over the course of the season yet though of course there is a lot of information about similar pitches.
Given Wasps recent history i'd advise we get the money up front.
We?? That will be going straight in the Belgians sky rocket!
Talk of it being for their 25/26 season if they actually exist as a team, which isn't by any means guarenteed.
Council and local residents would have issues and license at the Valley is for playing football. Regular non-football events fall outside of the licence.
Wasps have also left a trail of chaos and debt everywhere they have been so maybe not the best tenents.
I used to enjoy watching the London Broncos when they shared with us for a few seasons. Would definitely take in a few Wasps games should this actually happen, given I am clubless since the collapse of London Irish.
The link below should work if you want to read the full Times story.
How Wasps tapping into hotbed of Kent could ‘transform’ English game
There's definitely a rugby void in SE London and Kent, a shame Blackheath never move into the professional era like the other large London clubs. This is the article
Wasps are expected to play at The Valley in a ground-share arrangement with Charlton Athletic if their mooted revival in the second tier of English rugby goes ahead in the 2025-26 season; it would be a stepping stone towards the club’s ultimate goal of establishing a permanent base in Kent.
There is a huge strategic value to English rugby of establishing a top-flight professional club in Kent. The garden of England, a county with 63 community clubs, is seen by those involved in the county’s rugby scene as a largely “untapped” region and “ripe” for player development.
Wasps’ bid to build a 28,000-seat stadium on a greenbelt site near Sevenoaks has triggered strong local opposition. The stadium is part of a wider development project that includes 2,500 homes and a hotel. A survey found that 85 per cent of people were opposed to the plans.
In the meantime, Wasps, who went bust in 2022 with debts of about £95million, are believed to have secured use of The Valley — where a new hybrid pitch has been laid — as they eye a return to competition “at the highest possible level”.
Wasps had explored a future in the United Rugby Championship but English rugby executives have been laying the ground for the club to be parachuted into the Championship. Richmond, London Scottish and London Welsh were demoted to the bottom of the pyramid after they folded.
It has already been agreed that the second tier will be expanded to 14 clubs next year. The roadmap for the club’s return will be laid out by the new Tier Two Board once it is up and running, having been given authority by the RFU council.
Research commissioned by Premiership Rugby and shared with Wasps demonstrated that Kent was the best location in England for a new professional rugby club. John Gallagher, the Englishman who won the 1987 World Cup with New Zealand, knew that more than a decade ago.
Gallagher wrote to Wasps and London Irish, outlining a strong business and rugby case for relocating to the region. At the time, Gallagher’s son, Matt, was travelling around the M25 at least once a week to train with Saracens. Kent has always fallen into the Saracens catchment area. There are star players who have emerged from the county. Gallagher made it as a professional and is now with Treviso, having played for Saracens and Bath. Ben Earl, the England flanker, and Nick Tompkins, the Wales centre, have both made it to the top.
But for some boys the six-hour round trip can have a detrimental effect on their education and rugby development. Piers Francis, the former England centre, had that experience and only made it into the professional game after taking himself to New Zealand. Aaron Grandidier won an Olympic sevens gold medal with France having come through the Kent system but found no route to professional rugby in England.
Nothing changes quickly in rugby and the RFU is finally working to alter the system, with plans contained in the new club-country agreement for the establishment of satellite hubs.
Under the new academy boundaries, redrawn after the Premiership dropped to ten clubs, Bath’s catchment area stretches to Middlesex. The aim is to ensure that promising young players do not have to travel more than 90 minutes for academy training. The RFU’s plan also includes Premiership hubs in Norwich, Oxford, Bournemouth and Carlisle.
Harlequins have urban Kent in their catchment area, Saracens have rural Kent and Essex. They are looking at Dartford and Canterbury for satellite hubs. But Gallagher believes the establishment of a Premiership club in the region could be transformational.
“I was pushing the idea 12 years ago, probably because Matt was doing so much travelling,” Gallagher said. “The southeast is crying out for a Premiership franchise. The two I identified at the time were Wasps and Irish because they were spending a lot of money on stadiums that they couldn’t afford.
“I put a paper through to both clubs at the time. I had a positive response but the answer was no. Kent rugby feeds into two fantastic Premiership clubs. In an ideal world, if you had a Premiership franchise already here, then it would help.
“Kent has always been untapped [by England and the Premiership]. You look at all the Kent players who have come through and played for different countries, like me. You have got 63 clubs in Kent. It is ripe. What’s the pathway for these players?”
Although the RFU and Premiership are talking about change, Canterbury rugby club have taken action. “The rest of the Kent clubs can’t wait for [Wasps] to happen. We have got to get on with it,” Gallagher said.
Nathan Morris, the former England Under-20 and Wasps prop, is the architect of an academy that has been launched at Canterbury, linked to Archbishop’s School in the city.
The school, which has taken in refugees from Ukraine and Syria, has a similar relationship with Millwall FC. Pupils between 16 to 18 receive four rugby sessions a week, with the coaching often translated into multiple native languages.
The rugby age of prospects from Kent tends to be behind those in Surrey or Middlesex because there are fewer rugby schools, making it all the more important that talented players receive academy coaching. It also helps Canterbury to recruit and retain talent as they look to establish themselves in National One.
“I see a big niche here for comprehensive pupils,” Morris said. “The soil is very fertile here. There is so much talent that isn’t being managed or developed.”
The RFU will only bankroll the ten Premiership academies, plus Yorkshire. Canterbury’s scheme, which is based on the RFU pathway, designed to transition players into professional rugby, has been funded by local sponsors. Ealing Trailfinders have a successful academy link-up with Brunel University that is also independent of the RFU system.
Taff Gwilliam, Canterbury’s director of rugby, has held talks with Saracens about striking up a formal relationship to ensure the Marine Travel Ground is a hub for their satellite academy, rather than the Premiership club sitting back and picking off the best talent who will then be lost to Kent rugby.
“Canterbury play the highest level of rugby in this area. This is all part of a package to make this a hub of rugby in east Kent,” Gwilliam said.
“Travelling 2½ hours to Old Albanians is just not right. Mike Hynard, head of the academy at Saracens, is looking at a hub in Essex for Saracens and down here in east Kent. Canterbury is the obvious choice.”
Maybe for the first time in the professional era, the garden of England could become a fruitful region for the Premiership and the national team.
It makes maximum sense financially to get full use of the ground. The limiter to that has always been the pitch and what it can take but if that is resolved it has a logic to it for me. I suppose the next question is can the new improved pitch take more football and Rugby? We haven't seen it over the course of the season yet though of course there is a lot of information about similar pitches.
Given Wasps recent history i'd advise we get the money up front.
We?? That will be going straight in the Belgians sky rocket!
Don't think so.
We lease the Valley from RD so any income from using it EG weddings, meetings, rugger etc comes to the football club owners.
It makes maximum sense financially to get full use of the ground. The limiter to that has always been the pitch and what it can take but if that is resolved it has a logic to it for me. I suppose the next question is can the new improved pitch take more football and Rugby? We haven't seen it over the course of the season yet though of course there is a lot of information about similar pitches.
Given Wasps recent history i'd advise we get the money up front.
We?? That will be going straight in the Belgians sky rocket!
Very much doubt we've purchased a new pitch and punted out external use with all the money going to Roland, what would the point of that be ?
The condition of the pitch will come under pressure as it is come the winter months with both the men's and women's teams playing on it. Makes no sense whatsoever to add a Rugby club to the mix, the pitch in all probably would suffer badly.
exactly. And the grass is usually longer for rugby/shorted for football which makes it a bit more complicated
If they want to establish a base in Kent... "It would be a stepping stone towards the club’s ultimate goal of establishing a permanent base in Kent"...
Here's a suggestion... Fu*k off, and go to Kent then and have a go there, Gillingham sounds ideal...👍
Isn’t ’our’ rugby team good old Blackheath (the actual original) who have sadly moved to the South Circular? Wasps could share with them if they’re that keen, develop that ground a bit. How many people go to watch a Wasps game usually?
Isn’t ’our’ rugby team good old Blackheath (the actual original) who have sadly moved to the South Circular? Wasps could share with them if they’re that keen, develop that ground a bit. How many people go to watch a Wasps game usually?
They last played at Coventry City's ground prior to their implosion.
That suggests thousands rather than hundreds.
Yes, Blackheath was the traditional first class club in the area but have fallen away since the game went professional. They were in the second tier for a while but since then have been third and, for one season, fourth tier.
As a Rugby union fan it needs to said that Wasps were (and are) a pretty big deal in that world. They won the premiership multiple times with their heyday being in the 00s and are also 3 time European champions. They aren't quite as trophy laden as Leicester Tigers but they are up there for sure. They've bounced around a lot in terms of homes over the years playing at QPR, Wycombe and Cov. That's hurt their potential attendances in my eyes, but over the last few decades they've attracted crowds of anything from a couple of thousand to 10k plus for a big European game.
Not sure how many people around SE7 and the surrounding areas would be interested in watching RU, I certainly would be and I think they could attract a couple thousand to the Valley for a 2nd tier Rugby game.
Although it’s not my first best option, I think that the deal if it happens would need to be significantly financially beneficial to CAFC. Otherwise what’s the point. If it helps us to progress the football club onwards and upwards out of this shitty division then I’m up for it. I’m no expert but I’d expect the new pitch and its “bouncbackability” has made this an option.
As a Rugby union fan it needs to said that Wasps were (and are) a pretty big deal in that world. They won the premiership multiple times with their heyday being in the 00s and are also 3 time European champions. They aren't quite as trophy laden as Leicester Tigers but they are up there for sure. They've bounced around a lot in terms of homes over the years playing at QPR, Wycombe and Cov. That's hurt their potential attendances in my eyes, but over the last few decades they've attracted crowds of anything from a couple of thousand to 10k plus for a big European game.
Not sure how many people around SE7 and the surrounding areas would be interested in watching RU, I certainly would be and I think they could attract a couple thousand to the Valley for a 2nd tier Rugby game.
Assuming the new pitch is up to the strain (its been suggested it is fine at Swansea and Bristol City), is the Valley pitch long or wide enough? I really don't know the measurements required (no Kenny Williams Gifs please)?
Assuming the council allow it and the locals have to lump it, it could be good for local shops and what pubs are left.
More games might even make the catering better as the bars would be open more often so staff could be offered more days and be more likely to become regular, and so better skilled, bar staff. Catering is still outsourced so any income from the extra games would be limited.
But the Club shop would have ugly rugby shirts in it!
Can't imagine the ground and safety staff will be happy about working another weekend day and having to constantly remark the pitch.
There maybe spin offs that people who come to SE7 to watch Wasps may come back for some proper football but it could be the other way around. Live sport is expensive and people may choose WRFC over CAFC men or CAFC Women. We all know soccer is more popular than rugger but you are still inviting a rival into your realm.
Bottom line will be the bottom line. If the club is losing a reported £5m PA (Source Charlie Methven) than the temptation to find extra income streams will be hard to resist assuming that Wasps even get a place in their 2nd division and can cobble together a team.
PS Cricket, Rugby League, Motor cross and American Football have all been played at the Valley at some point.
It makes maximum sense financially to get full use of the ground. The limiter to that has always been the pitch and what it can take but if that is resolved it has a logic to it for me. I suppose the next question is can the new improved pitch take more football and Rugby? We haven't seen it over the course of the season yet though of course there is a lot of information about similar pitches.
Given Wasps recent history i'd advise we get the money up front.
We?? That will be going straight in the Belgians sky rocket!
Don't think so.
We lease the Valley from RD so any income from using it EG weddings, meetings, rugger etc comes to the football club owners.
I really hope you're right, but there are leases and leases. I might be catastrophizing here, but who knows what conditions old yellow tooth has put into the lease?
As a Rugby union fan it needs to said that Wasps were (and are) a pretty big deal in that world. They won the premiership multiple times with their heyday being in the 00s and are also 3 time European champions. They aren't quite as trophy laden as Leicester Tigers but they are up there for sure. They've bounced around a lot in terms of homes over the years playing at QPR, Wycombe and Cov. That's hurt their potential attendances in my eyes, but over the last few decades they've attracted crowds of anything from a couple of thousand to 10k plus for a big European game.
Not sure how many people around SE7 and the surrounding areas would be interested in watching RU, I certainly would be and I think they could attract a couple thousand to the Valley for a 2nd tier Rugby game.
SW London has always been more of a rugby heartland than SE London, but there's definitely some interest. After all many schools play rugby - I did 3 years of rugby before thankfully giving it up!
It makes maximum sense financially to get full use of the ground. The limiter to that has always been the pitch and what it can take but if that is resolved it has a logic to it for me. I suppose the next question is can the new improved pitch take more football and Rugby? We haven't seen it over the course of the season yet though of course there is a lot of information about similar pitches.
Given Wasps recent history i'd advise we get the money up front.
We?? That will be going straight in the Belgians sky rocket!
Don't think so.
We lease the Valley from RD so any income from using it EG weddings, meetings, rugger etc comes to the football club owners.
I really hope you're right, but there are leases and leases. I might be catastrophizing here, but who knows what conditions old yellow tooth has put into the lease?
This. I'd check the small print. A ground share is significantly different from renting out a few function rooms for parties and the like.
Maybe our rental payments the the Belgian could reduce a bit?
How wide is The Valley right now? 64m? Rugger bugger pitches tend to be closer to 68-70m I think. Try lines are normally 100m apart, and then it's however much grass you have leftover determines the end of the pitch
As a Rugby union fan it needs to said that Wasps were (and are) a pretty big deal in that world. They won the premiership multiple times with their heyday being in the 00s and are also 3 time European champions. They aren't quite as trophy laden as Leicester Tigers but they are up there for sure. They've bounced around a lot in terms of homes over the years playing at QPR, Wycombe and Cov. That's hurt their potential attendances in my eyes, but over the last few decades they've attracted crowds of anything from a couple of thousand to 10k plus for a big European game.
Not sure how many people around SE7 and the surrounding areas would be interested in watching RU, I certainly would be and I think they could attract a couple thousand to the Valley for a 2nd tier Rugby game.
SW London has always been more of a rugby heartland than SE London, but there's definitely some interest. After all many schools play rugby - I did 3 years of rugby before thankfully giving it up!
I would agree that south east London is not a hotbed of rugby, but Kent is very strong - not least because it has a lot of Grammar Schools.
Unless Two Sheds is the one doing the deal then there is no way he would get any benefit. Why would the club do it if that were the case?
As a Rugby union fan it needs to said that Wasps were (and are) a pretty big deal in that world. They won the premiership multiple times with their heyday being in the 00s and are also 3 time European champions. They aren't quite as trophy laden as Leicester Tigers but they are up there for sure. They've bounced around a lot in terms of homes over the years playing at QPR, Wycombe and Cov. That's hurt their potential attendances in my eyes, but over the last few decades they've attracted crowds of anything from a couple of thousand to 10k plus for a big European game.
Not sure how many people around SE7 and the surrounding areas would be interested in watching RU, I certainly would be and I think they could attract a couple thousand to the Valley for a 2nd tier Rugby game.
SW London has always been more of a rugby heartland than SE London, but there's definitely some interest. After all many schools play rugby - I did 3 years of rugby before thankfully giving it up!
I would agree that south east London is not a hotbed of rugby, but Kent is very strong - not least because it has a lot of Grammar Schools.
Unless Two Sheds is the one doing the deal then there is no way he would get any benefit. Why would the club do it if that were the case?
Came to make this point. As someone who left Beths in the last decade, it is very much a rugby school and a lot of the other grammar's are too. Makes it more of a miracle that Richard Chin, Lewis Bate, Euan Williams (Beths) & Dan Kanu (Dartford Grammar) have become pro footballers in recent years
As a Rugby union fan it needs to said that Wasps were (and are) a pretty big deal in that world. They won the premiership multiple times with their heyday being in the 00s and are also 3 time European champions. They aren't quite as trophy laden as Leicester Tigers but they are up there for sure. They've bounced around a lot in terms of homes over the years playing at QPR, Wycombe and Cov. That's hurt their potential attendances in my eyes, but over the last few decades they've attracted crowds of anything from a couple of thousand to 10k plus for a big European game.
Not sure how many people around SE7 and the surrounding areas would be interested in watching RU, I certainly would be and I think they could attract a couple thousand to the Valley for a 2nd tier Rugby game.
SW London has always been more of a rugby heartland than SE London, but there's definitely some interest. After all many schools play rugby - I did 3 years of rugby before thankfully giving it up!
I would agree that south east London is not a hotbed of rugby, but Kent is very strong - not least because it has a lot of Grammar Schools.
Unless Two Sheds is the one doing the deal then there is no way he would get any benefit. Why would the club do it if that were the case?
And as the fanbase for Charlton has shifted out of "inner" SE London towards the outer London boroughs and Kent, there's quite a strong overlap geographically.
Personally think it's a good thing the club are looking at ways of increasing Revenue. There will be side benefits too. Obviously various problems to be sorted out, if they can, before this were to be become a reality.
As a Rugby union fan it needs to said that Wasps were (and are) a pretty big deal in that world. They won the premiership multiple times with their heyday being in the 00s and are also 3 time European champions. They aren't quite as trophy laden as Leicester Tigers but they are up there for sure. They've bounced around a lot in terms of homes over the years playing at QPR, Wycombe and Cov. That's hurt their potential attendances in my eyes, but over the last few decades they've attracted crowds of anything from a couple of thousand to 10k plus for a big European game.
Not sure how many people around SE7 and the surrounding areas would be interested in watching RU, I certainly would be and I think they could attract a couple thousand to the Valley for a 2nd tier Rugby game.
SW London has always been more of a rugby heartland than SE London, but there's definitely some interest. After all many schools play rugby - I did 3 years of rugby before thankfully giving it up!
I would agree that south east London is not a hotbed of rugby, but Kent is very strong - not least because it has a lot of Grammar Schools.
Unless Two Sheds is the one doing the deal then there is no way he would get any benefit. Why would the club do it if that were the case?
Again I hope you are right, and again I might just be catastrophizing, but unless anyone has access to the lease and is in a position to scrutinise it, we just don't know what terms, conditions or agreements it contains. Ergo, we cannot be certain who would benefit and to what extent from any such deal. There are a number of scenarios (all hypothetical - as far as I know) in which RD could benefit from such a deal. Sandgaard was not in a position of strength when it came to negotiating the lease, frankly I think he did well just to keep us at The Valley, who know's what might have been conceded for that to happen? It may be that there is an agreement to share any dividends from a third-party groundshare, it may be that our prolonged stay at The Valley is conditional on finding a suitable groundshare partner, it may be that we have the option of a preferential rent if we share the ground with another party. Now, I'm just making stuff up, but without knowledge of what specifically is in the lease we cannot rule out any of those or any other hypothetical scenarios that would be of benefit to the rat.
Comments
There is a huge strategic value to English rugby of establishing a top-flight professional club in Kent. The garden of England, a county with 63 community clubs, is seen by those involved in the county’s rugby scene as a largely “untapped” region and “ripe” for player development.
Wasps’ bid to build a 28,000-seat stadium on a greenbelt site near Sevenoaks has triggered strong local opposition. The stadium is part of a wider development project that includes 2,500 homes and a hotel. A survey found that 85 per cent of people were opposed to the plans.
In the meantime, Wasps, who went bust in 2022 with debts of about £95million, are believed to have secured use of The Valley — where a new hybrid pitch has been laid — as they eye a return to competition “at the highest possible level”.
Wasps had explored a future in the United Rugby Championship but English rugby executives have been laying the ground for the club to be parachuted into the Championship. Richmond, London Scottish and London Welsh were demoted to the bottom of the pyramid after they folded.
Maybe for the first time in the professional era, the garden of England could become a fruitful region for the Premiership and the national team.
We lease the Valley from RD so any income from using it EG weddings, meetings, rugger etc comes to the football club owners.
Really no idea on rugger gates but can't be that much outside of big England games.
"It would be a stepping stone towards the club’s ultimate goal of establishing a permanent base in Kent"...
Here's a suggestion... Fu*k off, and go to Kent then and have a go there, Gillingham sounds ideal...👍
Wasps could share with them if they’re that keen, develop that ground a bit.
How many people go to watch a Wasps game usually?
That suggests thousands rather than hundreds.
Yes, Blackheath was the traditional first class club in the area but have fallen away since the game went professional. They were in the second tier for a while but since then have been third and, for one season, fourth tier.
Not sure how many people around SE7 and the surrounding areas would be interested in watching RU, I certainly would be and I think they could attract a couple thousand to the Valley for a 2nd tier Rugby game.
Assuming the council allow it and the locals have to lump it, it could be good for local shops and what pubs are left.
More games might even make the catering better as the bars would be open more often so staff could be offered more days and be more likely to become regular, and so better skilled, bar staff. Catering is still outsourced so any income from the extra games would be limited.
But the Club shop would have ugly rugby shirts in it!
Can't imagine the ground and safety staff will be happy about working another weekend day and having to constantly remark the pitch.
There maybe spin offs that people who come to SE7 to watch Wasps may come back for some proper football but it could be the other way around. Live sport is expensive and people may choose WRFC over CAFC men or CAFC Women. We all know soccer is more popular than rugger but you are still inviting a rival into your realm.
Bottom line will be the bottom line. If the club is losing a reported £5m PA (Source Charlie Methven) than the temptation to find extra income streams will be hard to resist assuming that Wasps even get a place in their 2nd division and can cobble together a team.
PS Cricket, Rugby League, Motor cross and American Football have all been played at the Valley at some point.
Maybe our rental payments the the Belgian could reduce a bit?