It’s a dynamic situation, admittedly, but generally we have lost more money in L1 than in the Championship. I don’t accept it’s either/or - there is a middle ground which Millwall have occupied quite successfully in recent years. We were relegated in 19/20 because RD starved the football side of resources.
in any case, TS isn’t “running a tight ship” - he’s reducing crowds with unrealistic prices and removing committed staff on spurious grounds. It’s amateurish and so is his commentary on it.
In all likelihood by dint of finances or personality, TS cannot and will not make it work. He may have done better with a more professional approach but ultimately we need to get the ground back and that will take someone with bigger pockets.
I do not claim any great knowledge of the veracity of the research, but according to this article, Millwall were running £10million losses annually even pre-Covid, and had lost £78million in the last decade. So, if that is accurate, it rather proves the point.
I don't necessarily disagree with you that TS has made various mistakes (often in taking the fans at their word) and, personally, I would be more cautious with price rises than he has been - although it does strike me as hilarious that the same fans who are currently in meltdown because he is not putting his hand in his pocket to buy more players, simply decide not to show up when they are asked to put their hands in their own pockets.
The facts remain: promotion does not offer a way out of this (just larger numbers on the P&L and the same debts, if not more), a cost-of-business crisis is coming (the club's electricity bill next quarter will be eye-watering), and so clubs need to cut their costs. You can certainly argue that TS is going about it in the wrong way, but this is a process that needs to happen.
If they are skint or have moved away or whatever, fine, but if they have chosen just to pack it in until we get better or feel this 'pub league' is below them, then that is not fine in my book if they continue to bang on and on about what should be done - they have every right to stop going but lose the right to expect anything and quite frankly, should belt up.
Players like Robson Kanu & Vydra (who were playing for Premier League/high end Championship clubs) are not going to resettle in London for £3k-£5k per week. Not on your nelly.
I agree that they wouldn't join us and not sure we'd want them but 3-5k per week is more than they're getting now.
I've always back Sandgaard, but the end of this window has done me. He hasn't got the resources, god knows what would happen if we got to the championship.
For us to compete properly, he needs to sell.
to who?
i think we are at least in a safe pair of hands with TS at the moment.
are you serious about safe hands, We have an owner who cannot afford to run Charlton Athletic football club. A thing I have been saying from day 2 of his ownership.
Proof that he cant afford it?
Proof, no fees paid for any new players coming in. now looking at the out of contract market for has been players. a massive cut back in support staff over the last two years and now a 15 to 20% hike in ticket prices and that done before the energy crises.
We have paid for players since he has been in charge and whether we like it or not, staff redundancies happen in every day business and ticket prices do tend to go up.
Personally, I dont like either of the last 2 especially the price hikes but it still isnt proof he doesnt have the funds.
Players like Robson Kanu & Vydra (who were playing for Premier League/high end Championship clubs) are not going to resettle in London for £3k-£5k per week. Not on your nelly.
I think a player who has been earning £500k/year for 5-10 years could probably resettle in London on £150k/year.
Players like Robson Kanu & Vydra (who were playing for Premier League/high end Championship clubs) are not going to resettle in London for £3k-£5k per week. Not on your nelly.
I agree that they wouldn't join us and not sure we'd want them but 3-5k per week is more than they're getting now.
Unless they really love playing football, they've made enough from the game not to bother with 3-5k per week before tax IMO
Players like Robson Kanu & Vydra (who were playing for Premier League/high end Championship clubs) are not going to resettle in London for £3k-£5k per week. Not on your nelly.
I agree that they wouldn't join us and not sure we'd want them but 3-5k per week is more than they're getting now.
Unless they really love playing football, they've made enough from the game not to bother with 3-5k per week before tax IMO
If that's the case then maybe they should think about retiring, both have lived and played in the south east so a chance they still have property or contacts. But it doesn't matter as I'm sure we're not interested in either one anyway.
Let's face it, whatever we pick up from the bargain bucket of freebies will come under one of two headings.. 1; Will need to monitor their minutes scenario.. 2; Not up to match speed for a few weeks.. So whoever it is or may be, we ain't gonna get a match winner from the off are we so another go on the merry go round it is until January and we can all start again..
I've always back Sandgaard, but the end of this window has done me. He hasn't got the resources, god knows what would happen if we got to the championship.
For us to compete properly, he needs to sell.
to who?
i think we are at least in a safe pair of hands with TS at the moment.
"Safe" in what sense? I think too many people believe what he says when he talks about breaking even. Nobody with any understanding of the club's finances thinks that is remotely achievable year on year. In fact, you don't even need to understand the finances - his five-year ambition, his predictions last season, his idea that he can fill The Valley in L1, his claim that he was about to achieve Category One status, the due diligence he claimed to have done on the NFT sponsor, have all been exposed. Why would anyone believe his latest line?
I would agree that Sandgaard is an upgrade on ESI and Duchatelet, has some positive personal qualities, and that the team is more interesting to watch and likely to do better than last season, but there is a big hole in the project and it is his credibility. It isn't going to work financially and for that reason the club is far from "safe", albeit it's a slow motion car crash this time.
The end game will be someone buying Duchatelet out, in my opinion. It won't be Thomas.
There are three types of fan at the moment and I will rank them in order of importance to the future of the club. I have held this view for quite some time but appreciate it is not a popular one. I shall start with the least important fans. These are the ones that are Charlton through and through and would watch us every week in the national league. They would be the most important if there was enough of them but there isn't and as they will eat whatever shit they are given, why bother giving them anything decent.
Then you have the next most important. Charlton fans who may be a bit disillusioned in recent years and are no longer season ticket holders and um and ah about whether to attend a game or not. They are and always will be Charlton fans though. They are the next most important as they can make the crowds and revenues more decent but probably not enough ultimately. You can of course take a leaf out of a certain poster's book and call them all traitors and you know whats but that won't get them back. Good winning football and optimism for the future after so many knock backs will do that.
Then you have the most important fans of all. These are potential and fickle fans who need persuading Charlton is their club. The demographics in our catchment area is a positive and suggests there is something to unlock, but you need a key to unlock it. And a plan.
Of course this isn't fair on the true die hard fans but it that doesn't make it untrue IMO. There will always be a few thousand turning up and watching us play Barnet in the National League. But the club has to grow, not shrink. It is already in a place where it is too big to be viable and it either has to get out of that place or shrink appropriately. Which it is gradually doing from what I can see.
I wish you would shut up. You claim to be more important to the club than me because I buy a S/T and attend all the games and you don't.
Players like Robson Kanu & Vydra (who were playing for Premier League/high end Championship clubs) are not going to resettle in London for £3k-£5k per week. Not on your nelly.
They may want to stay fit and keep their names out there so a short term contract maybe possible. The trouble with negativity is that nobody is good enough, too old, too young, unfit, injury prone, too expensive, too short, too timid, too aggressive etc etc. and you may well be right.
What I do know is that if you don’t try it certainly won’t happen. Remember when we signed the European footballer of the year?
God knows what the free agent market holds, but wasn't CBT a free agent. He came on a 3 month trial deal and earned a contract off the back of it. Now his stock value has increased significantly, as probably did his wages. Maybe other players will note that.
Waking up to not even seeing Bonne signing is something I did not expect, although as others have said, the writing was on the wall.
Clearly our owner doesn’t want to spend money anymore and everything is being done on the cheap, he spent some fees when he first got here but I think it’s a case of ‘reality bites’ for TS and he’s realised just because you spend 500k on a promising player, you aren’t always gonna see that players stock rise, so going against his own words, football really isn’t that simple.
There were a lot of attainable players at reasonable fees in this league and league 2, the fact he hasn’t even got one shows what the future holds,
balance the books, sell any of our valuable assets if an offer comes along, keep us competitive until a new investor/owner comes along. If he had any ambition with us he would be paying the 300-500k fees required to get the good players in contract at this level, I honestly think it’s unacceptable they’ve waited until the final minute to get a striker when they’ve had all summer. Our scouting system is terrible, all our good signings are from Ben Garners previous side, there’s no way there wasn’t National league & league 2 players ready to make the step up or even prem clubs with young players needing game time. Just seems like utter laziness and lack of knowledge
What I don’t understand was that there were plenty of sources claiming we were prepared to pay decent fees for Simpson and then Scully but Championship clubs came in and we didn’t stand a chance. How can you be absolutely 100% sure TS will never pay a fee again?
Because I don’t believe for a second we were ever in for the likes of Scully, I don’t think there would have been one player we were willing to pay a fee for, that’s why we were trying to shift our players to take a player on loan to cover the wages.
I imagine most people were just guessing or being told by someone who was just guessing because we were told by someone from the recruitment team we would make a signing, all evidence was pointing to it, even Rich seemed quite sure.
He will probably look to get up on the cheap or balance until he can sell. Luckily for us they managed to snag a fantastic manager at this level so we will probably still enjoy the season
I've always back Sandgaard, but the end of this window has done me. He hasn't got the resources, god knows what would happen if we got to the championship.
For us to compete properly, he needs to sell.
to who?
i think we are at least in a safe pair of hands with TS at the moment.
"Safe" in what sense? I think too many people believe what he says when he talks about breaking even. Nobody with any understanding of the club's finances thinks that is remotely achievable year on year. In fact, you don't even need to understand the finances - his five-year ambition, his predictions last season, his idea that he can fill The Valley in L1, his claim that he was about to achieve Category One status, the due diligence he claimed to have done on the NFT sponsor, have all been exposed. Why would anyone believe his latest line?
I would agree that Sandgaard is an upgrade on ESI and Duchatelet, has some positive personal qualities, and that the team is more interesting to watch and likely to do better than last season, but there is a big hole in the project and it is his credibility. It isn't going to work financially and for that reason the club is far from "safe", albeit it's a slow motion car crash this time.
The end game will be someone buying Duchatelet out, in my opinion. It won't be Thomas.
There are three types of fan at the moment and I will rank them in order of importance to the future of the club. I have held this view for quite some time but appreciate it is not a popular one. I shall start with the least important fans. These are the ones that are Charlton through and through and would watch us every week in the national league. They would be the most important if there was enough of them but there isn't and as they will eat whatever shit they are given, why bother giving them anything decent.
Then you have the next most important. Charlton fans who may be a bit disillusioned in recent years and are no longer season ticket holders and um and ah about whether to attend a game or not. They are and always will be Charlton fans though. They are the next most important as they can make the crowds and revenues more decent but probably not enough ultimately. You can of course take a leaf out of a certain poster's book and call them all traitors and you know whats but that won't get them back. Good winning football and optimism for the future after so many knock backs will do that.
Then you have the most important fans of all. These are potential and fickle fans who need persuading Charlton is their club. The demographics in our catchment area is a positive and suggests there is something to unlock, but you need a key to unlock it. And a plan.
Of course this isn't fair on the true die hard fans but it that doesn't make it untrue IMO. There will always be a few thousand turning up and watching us play Barnet in the National League. But the club has to grow, not shrink. It is already in a place where it is too big to be viable and it either has to get out of that place or shrink appropriately. Which it is gradually doing from what I can see.
I wish you would shut up. You claim to be more important to the club than me because I buy a S/T and attend all the games and you don't.
NB if we had sold another 2000 S/Ts we may have brought in a forward and a defender.
In your scenario we would be playing in an empty/ near empty stadium.
I've always back Sandgaard, but the end of this window has done me. He hasn't got the resources, god knows what would happen if we got to the championship.
For us to compete properly, he needs to sell.
to who?
i think we are at least in a safe pair of hands with TS at the moment.
"Safe" in what sense? I think too many people believe what he says when he talks about breaking even. Nobody with any understanding of the club's finances thinks that is remotely achievable year on year. In fact, you don't even need to understand the finances - his five-year ambition, his predictions last season, his idea that he can fill The Valley in L1, his claim that he was about to achieve Category One status, the due diligence he claimed to have done on the NFT sponsor, have all been exposed. Why would anyone believe his latest line?
I would agree that Sandgaard is an upgrade on ESI and Duchatelet, has some positive personal qualities, and that the team is more interesting to watch and likely to do better than last season, but there is a big hole in the project and it is his credibility. It isn't going to work financially and for that reason the club is far from "safe", albeit it's a slow motion car crash this time.
The end game will be someone buying Duchatelet out, in my opinion. It won't be Thomas.
There are three types of fan at the moment and I will rank them in order of importance to the future of the club. I have held this view for quite some time but appreciate it is not a popular one. I shall start with the least important fans. These are the ones that are Charlton through and through and would watch us every week in the national league. They would be the most important if there was enough of them but there isn't and as they will eat whatever shit they are given, why bother giving them anything decent.
Then you have the next most important. Charlton fans who may be a bit disillusioned in recent years and are no longer season ticket holders and um and ah about whether to attend a game or not. They are and always will be Charlton fans though. They are the next most important as they can make the crowds and revenues more decent but probably not enough ultimately. You can of course take a leaf out of a certain poster's book and call them all traitors and you know whats but that won't get them back. Good winning football and optimism for the future after so many knock backs will do that.
Then you have the most important fans of all. These are potential and fickle fans who need persuading Charlton is their club. The demographics in our catchment area is a positive and suggests there is something to unlock, but you need a key to unlock it. And a plan.
Of course this isn't fair on the true die hard fans but it that doesn't make it untrue IMO. There will always be a few thousand turning up and watching us play Barnet in the National League. But the club has to grow, not shrink. It is already in a place where it is too big to be viable and it either has to get out of that place or shrink appropriately. Which it is gradually doing from what I can see.
I wish you would shut up. You claim to be more important to the club than me because I buy a S/T and attend all the games and you don't.
A 'Mutley' type of supporter is the reason we have so many empty seats whereas say Ipswich or Sheffield Wednesday don't - they have a bigger core support and its the size of your core support that dictates the size of your club - Mutley doesn't go and i don't consider him a supporter or part of the club - he is a fairweather and we have a far bigger fairweather element in our support than say Ipswich who don't have the catchment for that but do have more true core supporters. The Mutleys are the problem and always have been, even when, in our prime, we were getting the huge crowds one week and then a massive tale off the next. It is what it is but in order of importance, those who keep going through the bad times are the most important in any club as without them, the club wouldn't be there - the Mutley's should thank us for keeping the club alive so they can enjoy the good times when they come around.
is there an emergency loan window to replace players at the World Cup or are league 1 and 2 teams expected to just deal with players being away for a number of weeks?
At the risk of seeming dense I don't even know what that signifies?
I think he's laughing that his transfer fell through as if we aren't the ones actually happy that it did
Ah. Wonder what his parent club think of that, the underachieving little bench warmer.
Irrelevant what QPR think really, they signed him on a long contract and Bonne sound like a chip of the same block as Taylor, and happy to cash in till next summer, they are welcome to him..👍
It’s a dynamic situation, admittedly, but generally we have lost more money in L1 than in the Championship. I don’t accept it’s either/or - there is a middle ground which Millwall have occupied quite successfully in recent years. We were relegated in 19/20 because RD starved the football side of resources.
in any case, TS isn’t “running a tight ship” - he’s reducing crowds with unrealistic prices and removing committed staff on spurious grounds. It’s amateurish and so is his commentary on it.
In all likelihood by dint of finances or personality, TS cannot and will not make it work. He may have done better with a more professional approach but ultimately we need to get the ground back and that will take someone with bigger pockets.
I do not claim any great knowledge of the veracity of the research, but according to this article, Millwall were running £10million losses annually even pre-Covid, and had lost £78million in the last decade. So, if that is accurate, it rather proves the point.
I don't necessarily disagree with you that TS has made various mistakes (often in taking the fans at their word) and, personally, I would be more cautious with price rises than he has been - although it does strike me as hilarious that the same fans who are currently in meltdown because he is not putting his hand in his pocket to buy more players, simply decide not to show up when they are asked to put their hands in their own pockets.
The facts remain: promotion does not offer a way out of this (just larger numbers on the P&L and the same debts, if not more), a cost-of-business crisis is coming (the club's electricity bill next quarter will be eye-watering), and so clubs need to cut their costs. You can certainly argue that TS is going about it in the wrong way, but this is a process that needs to happen.
I’m not going to spend a lot of time researching Millwall’s accounts but the fact remains they have had two seasons in L1 in the last 12, have been in the Championship for the last five and they haven’t gone bust or been relegated in that time. Nobody in their right mind believes they have a stronger commercial or supporter base than Charlton. So clearly it is possible and Charlton’s lowest operating loss in recent years was also in the Championship in 19/20. We went down on the last day by virtue of one goal -or Taylor’s absence, if you like - so relegation was not inevitable even though Duchatelet’s miserly playing budget created the problem. It wouldn’t have required much more spending to stay up.
Is Championship football the solution? No. But it gives you significantly more income to utilise and it makes you much more attractive to a buyer, plus it is an easier sell to fans. You have an opportunity to grow which does not exist in L1, no matter how often TS claims otherwise.
How you conclude that fans not showing up are those complaining he should spend more money I have no idea. I should think most are season ticket holders. The point about price is that it impacts on sales to the least committed or least able to afford it. There isn’t some moral duty on them to help out - it’s how markets work.
I've always back Sandgaard, but the end of this window has done me. He hasn't got the resources, god knows what would happen if we got to the championship.
For us to compete properly, he needs to sell.
to who?
i think we are at least in a safe pair of hands with TS at the moment.
"Safe" in what sense? I think too many people believe what he says when he talks about breaking even. Nobody with any understanding of the club's finances thinks that is remotely achievable year on year. In fact, you don't even need to understand the finances - his five-year ambition, his predictions last season, his idea that he can fill The Valley in L1, his claim that he was about to achieve Category One status, the due diligence he claimed to have done on the NFT sponsor, have all been exposed. Why would anyone believe his latest line?
I would agree that Sandgaard is an upgrade on ESI and Duchatelet, has some positive personal qualities, and that the team is more interesting to watch and likely to do better than last season, but there is a big hole in the project and it is his credibility. It isn't going to work financially and for that reason the club is far from "safe", albeit it's a slow motion car crash this time.
The end game will be someone buying Duchatelet out, in my opinion. It won't be Thomas.
There are three types of fan at the moment and I will rank them in order of importance to the future of the club. I have held this view for quite some time but appreciate it is not a popular one. I shall start with the least important fans. These are the ones that are Charlton through and through and would watch us every week in the national league. They would be the most important if there was enough of them but there isn't and as they will eat whatever shit they are given, why bother giving them anything decent.
Then you have the next most important. Charlton fans who may be a bit disillusioned in recent years and are no longer season ticket holders and um and ah about whether to attend a game or not. They are and always will be Charlton fans though. They are the next most important as they can make the crowds and revenues more decent but probably not enough ultimately. You can of course take a leaf out of a certain poster's book and call them all traitors and you know whats but that won't get them back. Good winning football and optimism for the future after so many knock backs will do that.
Then you have the most important fans of all. These are potential and fickle fans who need persuading Charlton is their club. The demographics in our catchment area is a positive and suggests there is something to unlock, but you need a key to unlock it. And a plan.
Of course this isn't fair on the true die hard fans but it that doesn't make it untrue IMO. There will always be a few thousand turning up and watching us play Barnet in the National League. But the club has to grow, not shrink. It is already in a place where it is too big to be viable and it either has to get out of that place or shrink appropriately. Which it is gradually doing from what I can see.
I wish you would shut up. You claim to be more important to the club than me because I buy a S/T and attend all the games and you don't.
A 'Mutley' type of supporter is the reason we have so many empty seats whereas say Ipswich or Sheffield Wednesday don't - they have a bigger core support and its the size of your core support that dictates the size of your club - Mutley doesn't go and i don't consider him a supporter or part of the club - he is a fairweather and we have a far bigger fairweather element in our support than say Ipswich who don't have the catchment for that but do have more true core supporters. The Mutleys are the problem and always have been, even when, in our prime, we were getting the huge crowds one week and then a massive tale off the next. It is what it is but in order of importance, those who keep going through the bad times are the most important in any club as without them, the club wouldn't be there - the Mutley's should thank us for keeping the club alive so they can enjoy the good times when they come around.
At the risk of seeming dense I don't even know what that signifies?
I think he's laughing that his transfer fell through as if we aren't the ones actually happy that it did
Ah. Wonder what his parent club think of that, the underachieving little bench warmer.
Irrelevant what QPR think really, they signed him on a long contract and Bonne sound like a chip of the same block as Taylor, and happy to cash in till next summer, they are welcome to him..👍
Players like Robson Kanu & Vydra (who were playing for Premier League/high end Championship clubs) are not going to resettle in London for £3k-£5k per week. Not on your nelly.
They may want to stay fit and keep their names out there so a short term contract maybe possible. The trouble with negativity is that nobody is good enough, too old, too young, unfit, injury prone, too expensive, too short, too timid, too aggressive etc etc. and you may well be right.
What I do know is that if you don’t try it certainly won’t happen. Remember when we signed the European footballer of the year?
Yeah we were bankrupt and homeless within a year or two. Maybe we should try that again.
It’s a dynamic situation, admittedly, but generally we have lost more money in L1 than in the Championship. I don’t accept it’s either/or - there is a middle ground which Millwall have occupied quite successfully in recent years. We were relegated in 19/20 because RD starved the football side of resources.
in any case, TS isn’t “running a tight ship” - he’s reducing crowds with unrealistic prices and removing committed staff on spurious grounds. It’s amateurish and so is his commentary on it.
In all likelihood by dint of finances or personality, TS cannot and will not make it work. He may have done better with a more professional approach but ultimately we need to get the ground back and that will take someone with bigger pockets.
I do not claim any great knowledge of the veracity of the research, but according to this article, Millwall were running £10million losses annually even pre-Covid, and had lost £78million in the last decade. So, if that is accurate, it rather proves the point.
I don't necessarily disagree with you that TS has made various mistakes (often in taking the fans at their word) and, personally, I would be more cautious with price rises than he has been - although it does strike me as hilarious that the same fans who are currently in meltdown because he is not putting his hand in his pocket to buy more players, simply decide not to show up when they are asked to put their hands in their own pockets.
The facts remain: promotion does not offer a way out of this (just larger numbers on the P&L and the same debts, if not more), a cost-of-business crisis is coming (the club's electricity bill next quarter will be eye-watering), and so clubs need to cut their costs. You can certainly argue that TS is going about it in the wrong way, but this is a process that needs to happen.
I’m not going to spend a lot of time researching Millwall’s accounts but the fact remains they have had two seasons in L1 in the last 12, have been the Championship for the last five and they haven’t gone bust or been relegated in that time. Nobody in their right mind believes they have a stronger commercial or supporter base than Charlton. So clearly it is possible and Charlton’s lowest operating loss in recent years was also in the Championship. We went down on the last day by virtue of one goal -Taylor’s absence, if you like, so relegation was not inevitable even though Duchatelet’s miserly playing budget created the problem.
Is Championship football the solution - no. But it gives you significantly more income to utilise and it makes you much more attractive to a buyer, plus it is an easier sell to fans.
How you conclude that fans not showing up are those concluding he should spend more money I have no idea. I should think most are season tickets holders.
Its your time and you can obviously do what you like but that article does appear to contradict your view that we would make a lower annual loss in the championship - thats become almost fact for a lot on here.
I've always back Sandgaard, but the end of this window has done me. He hasn't got the resources, god knows what would happen if we got to the championship.
For us to compete properly, he needs to sell.
to who?
i think we are at least in a safe pair of hands with TS at the moment.
"Safe" in what sense? I think too many people believe what he says when he talks about breaking even. Nobody with any understanding of the club's finances thinks that is remotely achievable year on year. In fact, you don't even need to understand the finances - his five-year ambition, his predictions last season, his idea that he can fill The Valley in L1, his claim that he was about to achieve Category One status, the due diligence he claimed to have done on the NFT sponsor, have all been exposed. Why would anyone believe his latest line?
I would agree that Sandgaard is an upgrade on ESI and Duchatelet, has some positive personal qualities, and that the team is more interesting to watch and likely to do better than last season, but there is a big hole in the project and it is his credibility. It isn't going to work financially and for that reason the club is far from "safe", albeit it's a slow motion car crash this time.
The end game will be someone buying Duchatelet out, in my opinion. It won't be Thomas.
There are three types of fan at the moment and I will rank them in order of importance to the future of the club. I have held this view for quite some time but appreciate it is not a popular one. I shall start with the least important fans. These are the ones that are Charlton through and through and would watch us every week in the national league. They would be the most important if there was enough of them but there isn't and as they will eat whatever shit they are given, why bother giving them anything decent.
Then you have the next most important. Charlton fans who may be a bit disillusioned in recent years and are no longer season ticket holders and um and ah about whether to attend a game or not. They are and always will be Charlton fans though. They are the next most important as they can make the crowds and revenues more decent but probably not enough ultimately. You can of course take a leaf out of a certain poster's book and call them all traitors and you know whats but that won't get them back. Good winning football and optimism for the future after so many knock backs will do that.
Then you have the most important fans of all. These are potential and fickle fans who need persuading Charlton is their club. The demographics in our catchment area is a positive and suggests there is something to unlock, but you need a key to unlock it. And a plan.
Of course this isn't fair on the true die hard fans but it that doesn't make it untrue IMO. There will always be a few thousand turning up and watching us play Barnet in the National League. But the club has to grow, not shrink. It is already in a place where it is too big to be viable and it either has to get out of that place or shrink appropriately. Which it is gradually doing from what I can see.
I wish you would shut up. You claim to be more important to the club than me because I buy a S/T and attend all the games and you don't.
A 'Mutley' type of supporter is the reason we have so many empty seats whereas say Ipswich or Sheffield Wednesday don't - they have a bigger core support and its the size of your core support that dictates the size of your club - Mutley doesn't go and i don't consider him a supporter or part of the club - he is a fairweather and we have a far bigger fairweather element in our support than say Ipswich who don't have the catchment for that but do have more true core supporters. The Mutleys are the problem and always have been, even when, in our prime, we were getting the huge crowds one week and then a massive tale off the next. It is what it is but in order of importance, those who keep going through the bad times are the most important in any club as without them, the club wouldn't be there - the Mutley's should thank us for keeping the club alive so they can enjoy the good times when they come around.
I've always back Sandgaard, but the end of this window has done me. He hasn't got the resources, god knows what would happen if we got to the championship.
For us to compete properly, he needs to sell.
to who?
i think we are at least in a safe pair of hands with TS at the moment.
"Safe" in what sense? I think too many people believe what he says when he talks about breaking even. Nobody with any understanding of the club's finances thinks that is remotely achievable year on year. In fact, you don't even need to understand the finances - his five-year ambition, his predictions last season, his idea that he can fill The Valley in L1, his claim that he was about to achieve Category One status, the due diligence he claimed to have done on the NFT sponsor, have all been exposed. Why would anyone believe his latest line?
I would agree that Sandgaard is an upgrade on ESI and Duchatelet, has some positive personal qualities, and that the team is more interesting to watch and likely to do better than last season, but there is a big hole in the project and it is his credibility. It isn't going to work financially and for that reason the club is far from "safe", albeit it's a slow motion car crash this time.
The end game will be someone buying Duchatelet out, in my opinion. It won't be Thomas.
There are three types of fan at the moment and I will rank them in order of importance to the future of the club. I have held this view for quite some time but appreciate it is not a popular one. I shall start with the least important fans. These are the ones that are Charlton through and through and would watch us every week in the national league. They would be the most important if there was enough of them but there isn't and as they will eat whatever shit they are given, why bother giving them anything decent.
Then you have the next most important. Charlton fans who may be a bit disillusioned in recent years and are no longer season ticket holders and um and ah about whether to attend a game or not. They are and always will be Charlton fans though. They are the next most important as they can make the crowds and revenues more decent but probably not enough ultimately. You can of course take a leaf out of a certain poster's book and call them all traitors and you know whats but that won't get them back. Good winning football and optimism for the future after so many knock backs will do that.
Then you have the most important fans of all. These are potential and fickle fans who need persuading Charlton is their club. The demographics in our catchment area is a positive and suggests there is something to unlock, but you need a key to unlock it. And a plan.
Of course this isn't fair on the true die hard fans but it that doesn't make it untrue IMO. There will always be a few thousand turning up and watching us play Barnet in the National League. But the club has to grow, not shrink. It is already in a place where it is too big to be viable and it either has to get out of that place or shrink appropriately. Which it is gradually doing from what I can see.
I wish you would shut up. You claim to be more important to the club than me because I buy a S/T and attend all the games and you don't.
A 'Mutley' type of supporter is the reason we have so many empty seats whereas say Ipswich or Sheffield Wednesday don't - they have a bigger core support and its the size of your core support that dictates the size of your club - Mutley doesn't go and i don't consider him a supporter or part of the club - he is a fairweather and we have a far bigger fairweather element in our support than say Ipswich who don't have the catchment for that but do have more true core supporters. The Mutleys are the problem and always have been, even when, in our prime, we were getting the huge crowds one week and then a massive tale off the next. It is what it is but in order of importance, those who keep going through the bad times are the most important in any club as without them, the club wouldn't be there - the Mutley's should thank us for keeping the club alive so they can enjoy the good times when they come around.
It’s a dynamic situation, admittedly, but generally we have lost more money in L1 than in the Championship. I don’t accept it’s either/or - there is a middle ground which Millwall have occupied quite successfully in recent years. We were relegated in 19/20 because RD starved the football side of resources.
in any case, TS isn’t “running a tight ship” - he’s reducing crowds with unrealistic prices and removing committed staff on spurious grounds. It’s amateurish and so is his commentary on it.
In all likelihood by dint of finances or personality, TS cannot and will not make it work. He may have done better with a more professional approach but ultimately we need to get the ground back and that will take someone with bigger pockets.
I do not claim any great knowledge of the veracity of the research, but according to this article, Millwall were running £10million losses annually even pre-Covid, and had lost £78million in the last decade. So, if that is accurate, it rather proves the point.
I don't necessarily disagree with you that TS has made various mistakes (often in taking the fans at their word) and, personally, I would be more cautious with price rises than he has been - although it does strike me as hilarious that the same fans who are currently in meltdown because he is not putting his hand in his pocket to buy more players, simply decide not to show up when they are asked to put their hands in their own pockets.
The facts remain: promotion does not offer a way out of this (just larger numbers on the P&L and the same debts, if not more), a cost-of-business crisis is coming (the club's electricity bill next quarter will be eye-watering), and so clubs need to cut their costs. You can certainly argue that TS is going about it in the wrong way, but this is a process that needs to happen.
I’m not going to spend a lot of time researching Millwall’s accounts but the fact remains they have had two seasons in L1 in the last 12, have been in the Championship for the last five and they haven’t gone bust or been relegated in that time. Nobody in their right mind believes they have a stronger commercial or supporter base than Charlton. So clearly it is possible and Charlton’s lowest operating loss in recent years was also in the Championship in 19/20. We went down on the last day by virtue of one goal -or Taylor’s absence, if you like - so relegation was not inevitable even though Duchatelet’s miserly playing budget created the problem. It wouldn’t have required much more spending to stay up.
Is Championship football the solution? No? But it gives you significantly more income to utilise and it makes you much more attractive to a buyer, plus it is an easier sell to fans. You have an opportunity to grow which does not exist in L1, no matter how often TS claims otherwise.
How you conclude that fans not showing up are those complaining he should spend more money I have no idea. I should think most are season tickets holders. The point about price is that impact the least committed or least able to afford it. There isn’t some moral duty on them to help out - it’s how markets work.
In that season, Roland's budget WAS just enough for survival, the bare minimum, but enough. Without ESI screwing things up, we wouldn't have had the transfer restrictions in January that hampered us so badly.
That season, and the seasons of teams like Rotherham and Wycombe show that it's possible with good management to give it a good go in the Championship without making massive losses. You might survive, you might not, but financially it's far more attractive than L1 football.
Comments
Personally, I dont like either of the last 2 especially the price hikes but it still isnt proof he doesnt have the funds.
But it doesn't matter as I'm sure we're not interested in either one anyway.
1; Will need to monitor their minutes scenario..
2; Not up to match speed for a few weeks..
So whoever it is or may be, we ain't gonna get a match winner from the off are we so another go on the merry go round it is until January and we can all start again..
You claim to be more important to the club than me because I buy a S/T and attend all the games and you don't.
The trouble with negativity is that nobody is good enough, too old, too young, unfit, injury prone, too expensive, too short, too timid, too aggressive etc etc. and you may well be right.
What I do know is that if you don’t try it certainly won’t happen. Remember when we signed the European footballer of the year?
I think he's laughing that his transfer fell through as if we aren't the ones actually happy that it did
In your scenario we would be playing in an empty/ near empty stadium.
Is Championship football the solution? No. But it gives you significantly more income to utilise and it makes you much more attractive to a buyer, plus it is an easier sell to fans. You have an opportunity to grow which does not exist in L1, no matter how often TS claims otherwise.
How you conclude that fans not showing up are those complaining he should spend more money I have no idea. I should think most are season ticket holders. The point about price is that it impacts on sales to the least committed or least able to afford it. There isn’t some moral duty on them to help out - it’s how markets work.
Difficult to be anything else since I moved to Cornwall.
Seriously I am glad there are diehard fans who turn up because that is what supporting the club means.
That season, and the seasons of teams like Rotherham and Wycombe show that it's possible with good management to give it a good go in the Championship without making massive losses. You might survive, you might not, but financially it's far more attractive than L1 football.