I've always back Sandgaard, but the end of this window has done me. He hasn't got the resources, god knows what would happen if we got to the championship.
For us to compete properly, he needs to sell.
to who?
i think we are at least in a safe pair of hands with TS at the moment.
"Safe" in what sense? I think too many people believe what he says when he talks about breaking even. Nobody with any understanding of the club's finances thinks that is remotely achievable year on year. In fact, you don't even need to understand the finances - his five-year ambition, his predictions last season, his idea that he can fill The Valley in L1, his claim that he was about to achieve Category One status, the due diligence he claimed to have done on the NFT sponsor, have all been exposed. Why would anyone believe his latest line?
I would agree that Sandgaard is an upgrade on ESI and Duchatelet, has some positive personal qualities, and that the team is more interesting to watch and likely to do better than last season, but there is a big hole in the project and it is his credibility. It isn't going to work financially and for that reason the club is far from "safe", albeit it's a slow motion car crash this time.
The end game will be someone buying Duchatelet out, in my opinion. It won't be Thomas.
There are three types of fan at the moment and I will rank them in order of importance to the future of the club. I have held this view for quite some time but appreciate it is not a popular one. I shall start with the least important fans. These are the ones that are Charlton through and through and would watch us every week in the national league. They would be the most important if there was enough of them but there isn't and as they will eat whatever shit they are given, why bother giving them anything decent.
Then you have the next most important. Charlton fans who may be a bit disillusioned in recent years and are no longer season ticket holders and um and ah about whether to attend a game or not. They are and always will be Charlton fans though. They are the next most important as they can make the crowds and revenues more decent but probably not enough ultimately. You can of course take a leaf out of a certain poster's book and call them all traitors and you know whats but that won't get them back. Good winning football and optimism for the future after so many knock backs will do that.
Then you have the most important fans of all. These are potential and fickle fans who need persuading Charlton is their club. The demographics in our catchment area is a positive and suggests there is something to unlock, but you need a key to unlock it. And a plan.
Of course this isn't fair on the true die hard fans but it that doesn't make it untrue IMO. There will always be a few thousand turning up and watching us play Barnet in the National League. But the club has to grow, not shrink. It is already in a place where it is too big to be viable and it either has to get out of that place or shrink appropriately. Which it is gradually doing from what I can see.
I wish you would shut up. You claim to be more important to the club than me because I buy a S/T and attend all the games and you don't.
A 'Mutley' type of supporter is the reason we have so many empty seats whereas say Ipswich or Sheffield Wednesday don't - they have a bigger core support and its the size of your core support that dictates the size of your club - Mutley doesn't go and i don't consider him a supporter or part of the club - he is a fairweather and we have a far bigger fairweather element in our support than say Ipswich who don't have the catchment for that but do have more true core supporters. The Mutleys are the problem and always have been, even when, in our prime, we were getting the huge crowds one week and then a massive tale off the next. It is what it is but in order of importance, those who keep going through the bad times are the most important in any club as without them, the club wouldn't be there - the Mutley's should thank us for keeping the club alive so they can enjoy the good times when they come around.
It’s a dynamic situation, admittedly, but generally we have lost more money in L1 than in the Championship. I don’t accept it’s either/or - there is a middle ground which Millwall have occupied quite successfully in recent years. We were relegated in 19/20 because RD starved the football side of resources.
in any case, TS isn’t “running a tight ship” - he’s reducing crowds with unrealistic prices and removing committed staff on spurious grounds. It’s amateurish and so is his commentary on it.
In all likelihood by dint of finances or personality, TS cannot and will not make it work. He may have done better with a more professional approach but ultimately we need to get the ground back and that will take someone with bigger pockets.
I do not claim any great knowledge of the veracity of the research, but according to this article, Millwall were running £10million losses annually even pre-Covid, and had lost £78million in the last decade. So, if that is accurate, it rather proves the point.
I don't necessarily disagree with you that TS has made various mistakes (often in taking the fans at their word) and, personally, I would be more cautious with price rises than he has been - although it does strike me as hilarious that the same fans who are currently in meltdown because he is not putting his hand in his pocket to buy more players, simply decide not to show up when they are asked to put their hands in their own pockets.
The facts remain: promotion does not offer a way out of this (just larger numbers on the P&L and the same debts, if not more), a cost-of-business crisis is coming (the club's electricity bill next quarter will be eye-watering), and so clubs need to cut their costs. You can certainly argue that TS is going about it in the wrong way, but this is a process that needs to happen.
I’m not going to spend a lot of time researching Millwall’s accounts but the fact remains they have had two seasons in L1 in the last 12, have been the Championship for the last five and they haven’t gone bust or been relegated in that time. Nobody in their right mind believes they have a stronger commercial or supporter base than Charlton. So clearly it is possible and Charlton’s lowest operating loss in recent years was also in the Championship. We went down on the last day by virtue of one goal -Taylor’s absence, if you like, so relegation was not inevitable even though Duchatelet’s miserly playing budget created the problem.
Is Championship football the solution - no. But it gives you significantly more income to utilise and it makes you much more attractive to a buyer, plus it is an easier sell to fans.
How you conclude that fans not showing up are those concluding he should spend more money I have no idea. I should think most are season tickets holders.
Its your time and you can obviously do what you like but that article does appear to contradict your view that we would make a lower annual loss in the championship - thats become almost fact for a lot on here.
I’m not sure there’s a contradiction there at all. Charlton’s average attendances are still 2-3,000 more than Millwall over the last few seasons while we’ve been in a lower division. The uplift potential for Charlton from higher crowds, even if only a further 2-3,000, and commercial opportunities is greater than Millwall have shown they can generate despite having their “best ever” main sponsorship deal.
Both clubs' commercial income is rubbish compared to similar elsewhere in the country, to be fair. My view is that it's a London suburbs thing, rather than just a club failing. Plus our (real or official) attendances overstate our wider support.
It’s a dynamic situation, admittedly, but generally we have lost more money in L1 than in the Championship. I don’t accept it’s either/or - there is a middle ground which Millwall have occupied quite successfully in recent years. We were relegated in 19/20 because RD starved the football side of resources.
in any case, TS isn’t “running a tight ship” - he’s reducing crowds with unrealistic prices and removing committed staff on spurious grounds. It’s amateurish and so is his commentary on it.
In all likelihood by dint of finances or personality, TS cannot and will not make it work. He may have done better with a more professional approach but ultimately we need to get the ground back and that will take someone with bigger pockets.
I do not claim any great knowledge of the veracity of the research, but according to this article, Millwall were running £10million losses annually even pre-Covid, and had lost £78million in the last decade. So, if that is accurate, it rather proves the point.
I don't necessarily disagree with you that TS has made various mistakes (often in taking the fans at their word) and, personally, I would be more cautious with price rises than he has been - although it does strike me as hilarious that the same fans who are currently in meltdown because he is not putting his hand in his pocket to buy more players, simply decide not to show up when they are asked to put their hands in their own pockets.
The facts remain: promotion does not offer a way out of this (just larger numbers on the P&L and the same debts, if not more), a cost-of-business crisis is coming (the club's electricity bill next quarter will be eye-watering), and so clubs need to cut their costs. You can certainly argue that TS is going about it in the wrong way, but this is a process that needs to happen.
I’m not going to spend a lot of time researching Millwall’s accounts but the fact remains they have had two seasons in L1 in the last 12, have been the Championship for the last five and they haven’t gone bust or been relegated in that time. Nobody in their right mind believes they have a stronger commercial or supporter base than Charlton. So clearly it is possible and Charlton’s lowest operating loss in recent years was also in the Championship. We went down on the last day by virtue of one goal -Taylor’s absence, if you like, so relegation was not inevitable even though Duchatelet’s miserly playing budget created the problem.
Is Championship football the solution - no. But it gives you significantly more income to utilise and it makes you much more attractive to a buyer, plus it is an easier sell to fans.
How you conclude that fans not showing up are those concluding he should spend more money I have no idea. I should think most are season tickets holders.
Its your time and you can obviously do what you like but that article does appear to contradict your view that we would make a lower annual loss in the championship - thats become almost fact for a lot on here.
So, what this shows is that despite ESI wasting money on themselves and Covid, which hit in March 2020, the operating loss in 2019/20 in the Championship was £5.3m, which was £6.6mm, £8.0m and £9.0m better than in L1 in the preceding three seasons. The main reason is the top line - central income. I would argue and have that Duchatelet should have spent SOME of that on improving the squad to increase the chances of staying up, but nothing like all of it.
The 2015/16 figure is an outlier because Duchatelet spent heavily trying to stay up which you can see was then largely recouped by player trading, The 2020/21 figure is distorted because almost all the season was behind closed doors and Sandgaard transferred the leasehold assets (the stands) to Roland as part of his lease agreement. They were previously on the football club balance sheet.
It is just a fact that Charlton have tended to lose less money in the Championship than L1, although the losses accelerated under Roland. The figure was £7.2m in 2013/14 and £7.8m in 2014/15.
Have a good look at those commercial income figures in L1 while you're there.
Your table doesn’t really prove anything tbh - the central income is different but the fact we hadn’t upped the players wages to championship level and signed the players needed to stay there, meant we just pocketed the extra money - to stay there you would have to spend that extra money - millwalls actual accounts kind of prove that ? You’ve said yourself there income through gate receipts is similar to ours so why would our losses be any different ?
It’s a dynamic situation, admittedly, but generally we have lost more money in L1 than in the Championship. I don’t accept it’s either/or - there is a middle ground which Millwall have occupied quite successfully in recent years. We were relegated in 19/20 because RD starved the football side of resources.
in any case, TS isn’t “running a tight ship” - he’s reducing crowds with unrealistic prices and removing committed staff on spurious grounds. It’s amateurish and so is his commentary on it.
In all likelihood by dint of finances or personality, TS cannot and will not make it work. He may have done better with a more professional approach but ultimately we need to get the ground back and that will take someone with bigger pockets.
I do not claim any great knowledge of the veracity of the research, but according to this article, Millwall were running £10million losses annually even pre-Covid, and had lost £78million in the last decade. So, if that is accurate, it rather proves the point.
I don't necessarily disagree with you that TS has made various mistakes (often in taking the fans at their word) and, personally, I would be more cautious with price rises than he has been - although it does strike me as hilarious that the same fans who are currently in meltdown because he is not putting his hand in his pocket to buy more players, simply decide not to show up when they are asked to put their hands in their own pockets.
The facts remain: promotion does not offer a way out of this (just larger numbers on the P&L and the same debts, if not more), a cost-of-business crisis is coming (the club's electricity bill next quarter will be eye-watering), and so clubs need to cut their costs. You can certainly argue that TS is going about it in the wrong way, but this is a process that needs to happen.
I’m not going to spend a lot of time researching Millwall’s accounts but the fact remains they have had two seasons in L1 in the last 12, have been the Championship for the last five and they haven’t gone bust or been relegated in that time. Nobody in their right mind believes they have a stronger commercial or supporter base than Charlton. So clearly it is possible and Charlton’s lowest operating loss in recent years was also in the Championship. We went down on the last day by virtue of one goal -Taylor’s absence, if you like, so relegation was not inevitable even though Duchatelet’s miserly playing budget created the problem.
Is Championship football the solution - no. But it gives you significantly more income to utilise and it makes you much more attractive to a buyer, plus it is an easier sell to fans.
How you conclude that fans not showing up are those concluding he should spend more money I have no idea. I should think most are season tickets holders.
Its your time and you can obviously do what you like but that article does appear to contradict your view that we would make a lower annual loss in the championship - thats become almost fact for a lot on here.
I’m not sure there’s a contradiction there at all. Charlton’s average attendances are still 2-3,000 more than Millwall over the last few seasons while we’ve been in a lower division. The uplift potential for Charlton from higher crowds, even if only a further 2-3,000, and commercial opportunities is greater than Millwall have shown they can generate despite having their “best ever” main sponsorship deal.
The fixed costs that don’t change much I guess are the staff and the stadium costs regardless of league 1 or champ but the player wages are roughly double in the championship and they must be by far the biggest operating expenses so probably more than negates the central income and gate money ?
Shopping in Poundland, the player has had no pre season meaning it will be atleast November before he is fully up to speed, why does that player not have a club ? Does that suggest he is past his best or injury prone ? How many free agents have actually turned a clubs season around ?
Kermogant
A clear anamoly and not a situation to model transfer strategy on.
There will unlikely be a Yann out there albeit some very appealing names on the available list such as Vydra and to a lesser extent Robson Kanu
I appreciate that to every kermogant there is a Leon best x 10.
Leon Best is innocent! Quite liked him.
Leon Best was one of my best ITK reveals - remember talking about time capsules and all sorts - think airman was doing the tick tock thing coz he thought I’d got it wrong - what a laugh !!! shame he got badly injured
Players like Robson Kanu & Vydra (who were playing for Premier League/high end Championship clubs) are not going to resettle in London for £3k-£5k per week. Not on your nelly.
They may want to stay fit and keep their names out there so a short term contract maybe possible. The trouble with negativity is that nobody is good enough, too old, too young, unfit, injury prone, too expensive, too short, too timid, too aggressive etc etc. and you may well be right.
What I do know is that if you don’t try it certainly won’t happen. Remember when we signed the European footballer of the year?
Yeah we were bankrupt and homeless within a year or two. Maybe we should true that again.
And that was the cause was it?
So your suggestion is that we just give up. Well you go and hide behind the settee.
It’s a dynamic situation, admittedly, but generally we have lost more money in L1 than in the Championship. I don’t accept it’s either/or - there is a middle ground which Millwall have occupied quite successfully in recent years. We were relegated in 19/20 because RD starved the football side of resources.
in any case, TS isn’t “running a tight ship” - he’s reducing crowds with unrealistic prices and removing committed staff on spurious grounds. It’s amateurish and so is his commentary on it.
In all likelihood by dint of finances or personality, TS cannot and will not make it work. He may have done better with a more professional approach but ultimately we need to get the ground back and that will take someone with bigger pockets.
I do not claim any great knowledge of the veracity of the research, but according to this article, Millwall were running £10million losses annually even pre-Covid, and had lost £78million in the last decade. So, if that is accurate, it rather proves the point.
I don't necessarily disagree with you that TS has made various mistakes (often in taking the fans at their word) and, personally, I would be more cautious with price rises than he has been - although it does strike me as hilarious that the same fans who are currently in meltdown because he is not putting his hand in his pocket to buy more players, simply decide not to show up when they are asked to put their hands in their own pockets.
The facts remain: promotion does not offer a way out of this (just larger numbers on the P&L and the same debts, if not more), a cost-of-business crisis is coming (the club's electricity bill next quarter will be eye-watering), and so clubs need to cut their costs. You can certainly argue that TS is going about it in the wrong way, but this is a process that needs to happen.
I’m not going to spend a lot of time researching Millwall’s accounts but the fact remains they have had two seasons in L1 in the last 12, have been the Championship for the last five and they haven’t gone bust or been relegated in that time. Nobody in their right mind believes they have a stronger commercial or supporter base than Charlton. So clearly it is possible and Charlton’s lowest operating loss in recent years was also in the Championship. We went down on the last day by virtue of one goal -Taylor’s absence, if you like, so relegation was not inevitable even though Duchatelet’s miserly playing budget created the problem.
Is Championship football the solution - no. But it gives you significantly more income to utilise and it makes you much more attractive to a buyer, plus it is an easier sell to fans.
How you conclude that fans not showing up are those concluding he should spend more money I have no idea. I should think most are season tickets holders.
Its your time and you can obviously do what you like but that article does appear to contradict your view that we would make a lower annual loss in the championship - thats become almost fact for a lot on here.
So, what this shows is that despite ESI wasting money on themselves and Covid, which hit in March 2020, the operating loss in 2019/20 in the Championship was £5.3m, which was £6.6mm, £8.0m and £9.0m better than in L1 in the preceding three seasons. The main reason is the top line - central income. I would argue and have that Duchatelet should have spent SOME of that on improving the squad to increase the chances of staying up, but nothing like all of it.
The 2015/16 figure is an outlier because Duchatelet spent heavily trying to stay up which you can see was then largely recouped by player trading, The 2020/21 figure is distorted because almost all the season was behind closed doors and Sandgaard transferred the leasehold assets (the stands) to Roland as part of his lease agreement. They were previously on the football club balance sheet.
It is just a fact that Charlton have tended to lose less money in the Championship than L1, although the losses accelerated under Roland. The figure was £7.2m in 2013/14 and £7.8m in 2014/15.
Have a good look at those commercial income figures in L1 while you're there.
Your table doesn’t really prove anything tbh - the central income is different but the fact we hadn’t upped the players wages to championship level and signed the players needed to stay there, meant we just pocketed the extra money - to stay there you would have to spend that extra money - millwalls actual accounts kind of prove that ? You’ve said yourself there income through gate receipts is similar to ours so why would our losses be any different ?
It is a fact that in the last nine seasons for which we have figures, Charlton's operating losses have consistently been much higher in League One than in the Championship - with the exception of 2015/16. I am not excluding 2020/21 because the announced number is distorted by an £8.1m asset transfer to Roland. Not sure why that is so hard to understand.
Roland/ESI could have spent another £5m on players' wages in 2019/20 and the operating loss would still have been lower than the preceding three seasons in L1 by some margin.
It’s a dynamic situation, admittedly, but generally we have lost more money in L1 than in the Championship. I don’t accept it’s either/or - there is a middle ground which Millwall have occupied quite successfully in recent years. We were relegated in 19/20 because RD starved the football side of resources.
in any case, TS isn’t “running a tight ship” - he’s reducing crowds with unrealistic prices and removing committed staff on spurious grounds. It’s amateurish and so is his commentary on it.
In all likelihood by dint of finances or personality, TS cannot and will not make it work. He may have done better with a more professional approach but ultimately we need to get the ground back and that will take someone with bigger pockets.
I do not claim any great knowledge of the veracity of the research, but according to this article, Millwall were running £10million losses annually even pre-Covid, and had lost £78million in the last decade. So, if that is accurate, it rather proves the point.
I don't necessarily disagree with you that TS has made various mistakes (often in taking the fans at their word) and, personally, I would be more cautious with price rises than he has been - although it does strike me as hilarious that the same fans who are currently in meltdown because he is not putting his hand in his pocket to buy more players, simply decide not to show up when they are asked to put their hands in their own pockets.
The facts remain: promotion does not offer a way out of this (just larger numbers on the P&L and the same debts, if not more), a cost-of-business crisis is coming (the club's electricity bill next quarter will be eye-watering), and so clubs need to cut their costs. You can certainly argue that TS is going about it in the wrong way, but this is a process that needs to happen.
I’m not going to spend a lot of time researching Millwall’s accounts but the fact remains they have had two seasons in L1 in the last 12, have been the Championship for the last five and they haven’t gone bust or been relegated in that time. Nobody in their right mind believes they have a stronger commercial or supporter base than Charlton. So clearly it is possible and Charlton’s lowest operating loss in recent years was also in the Championship. We went down on the last day by virtue of one goal -Taylor’s absence, if you like, so relegation was not inevitable even though Duchatelet’s miserly playing budget created the problem.
Is Championship football the solution - no. But it gives you significantly more income to utilise and it makes you much more attractive to a buyer, plus it is an easier sell to fans.
How you conclude that fans not showing up are those concluding he should spend more money I have no idea. I should think most are season tickets holders.
Its your time and you can obviously do what you like but that article does appear to contradict your view that we would make a lower annual loss in the championship - thats become almost fact for a lot on here.
I’m not sure there’s a contradiction there at all. Charlton’s average attendances are still 2-3,000 more than Millwall over the last few seasons while we’ve been in a lower division. The uplift potential for Charlton from higher crowds, even if only a further 2-3,000, and commercial opportunities is greater than Millwall have shown they can generate despite having their “best ever” main sponsorship deal.
I thought their income was similar even with lower gates as they charged more ? I’m sure airman has said that when trying to prove something else ?
Correct our income did come in as similar. Not sure it’s because we charge more. Probably more to do with the fact that the extra 2 or 3 thousand charlton appear to get aren’t actually paying fans.
It’s a dynamic situation, admittedly, but generally we have lost more money in L1 than in the Championship. I don’t accept it’s either/or - there is a middle ground which Millwall have occupied quite successfully in recent years. We were relegated in 19/20 because RD starved the football side of resources.
in any case, TS isn’t “running a tight ship” - he’s reducing crowds with unrealistic prices and removing committed staff on spurious grounds. It’s amateurish and so is his commentary on it.
In all likelihood by dint of finances or personality, TS cannot and will not make it work. He may have done better with a more professional approach but ultimately we need to get the ground back and that will take someone with bigger pockets.
I do not claim any great knowledge of the veracity of the research, but according to this article, Millwall were running £10million losses annually even pre-Covid, and had lost £78million in the last decade. So, if that is accurate, it rather proves the point.
I don't necessarily disagree with you that TS has made various mistakes (often in taking the fans at their word) and, personally, I would be more cautious with price rises than he has been - although it does strike me as hilarious that the same fans who are currently in meltdown because he is not putting his hand in his pocket to buy more players, simply decide not to show up when they are asked to put their hands in their own pockets.
The facts remain: promotion does not offer a way out of this (just larger numbers on the P&L and the same debts, if not more), a cost-of-business crisis is coming (the club's electricity bill next quarter will be eye-watering), and so clubs need to cut their costs. You can certainly argue that TS is going about it in the wrong way, but this is a process that needs to happen.
I’m not going to spend a lot of time researching Millwall’s accounts but the fact remains they have had two seasons in L1 in the last 12, have been the Championship for the last five and they haven’t gone bust or been relegated in that time. Nobody in their right mind believes they have a stronger commercial or supporter base than Charlton. So clearly it is possible and Charlton’s lowest operating loss in recent years was also in the Championship. We went down on the last day by virtue of one goal -Taylor’s absence, if you like, so relegation was not inevitable even though Duchatelet’s miserly playing budget created the problem.
Is Championship football the solution - no. But it gives you significantly more income to utilise and it makes you much more attractive to a buyer, plus it is an easier sell to fans.
How you conclude that fans not showing up are those concluding he should spend more money I have no idea. I should think most are season tickets holders.
Its your time and you can obviously do what you like but that article does appear to contradict your view that we would make a lower annual loss in the championship - thats become almost fact for a lot on here.
I’m not sure there’s a contradiction there at all. Charlton’s average attendances are still 2-3,000 more than Millwall over the last few seasons while we’ve been in a lower division. The uplift potential for Charlton from higher crowds, even if only a further 2-3,000, and commercial opportunities is greater than Millwall have shown they can generate despite having their “best ever” main sponsorship deal.
I thought their income was similar even with lower gates as they charged more ? I’m sure airman has said that when trying to prove something else ?
Correct our income did come in as similar. Not sure it’s because we charge more. Probably more to do with the fact that the extra 2 or 3 thousand charlton appear to get aren’t actually paying fans.
It’s a dynamic situation, admittedly, but generally we have lost more money in L1 than in the Championship. I don’t accept it’s either/or - there is a middle ground which Millwall have occupied quite successfully in recent years. We were relegated in 19/20 because RD starved the football side of resources.
in any case, TS isn’t “running a tight ship” - he’s reducing crowds with unrealistic prices and removing committed staff on spurious grounds. It’s amateurish and so is his commentary on it.
In all likelihood by dint of finances or personality, TS cannot and will not make it work. He may have done better with a more professional approach but ultimately we need to get the ground back and that will take someone with bigger pockets.
I do not claim any great knowledge of the veracity of the research, but according to this article, Millwall were running £10million losses annually even pre-Covid, and had lost £78million in the last decade. So, if that is accurate, it rather proves the point.
I don't necessarily disagree with you that TS has made various mistakes (often in taking the fans at their word) and, personally, I would be more cautious with price rises than he has been - although it does strike me as hilarious that the same fans who are currently in meltdown because he is not putting his hand in his pocket to buy more players, simply decide not to show up when they are asked to put their hands in their own pockets.
The facts remain: promotion does not offer a way out of this (just larger numbers on the P&L and the same debts, if not more), a cost-of-business crisis is coming (the club's electricity bill next quarter will be eye-watering), and so clubs need to cut their costs. You can certainly argue that TS is going about it in the wrong way, but this is a process that needs to happen.
I’m not going to spend a lot of time researching Millwall’s accounts but the fact remains they have had two seasons in L1 in the last 12, have been the Championship for the last five and they haven’t gone bust or been relegated in that time. Nobody in their right mind believes they have a stronger commercial or supporter base than Charlton. So clearly it is possible and Charlton’s lowest operating loss in recent years was also in the Championship. We went down on the last day by virtue of one goal -Taylor’s absence, if you like, so relegation was not inevitable even though Duchatelet’s miserly playing budget created the problem.
Is Championship football the solution - no. But it gives you significantly more income to utilise and it makes you much more attractive to a buyer, plus it is an easier sell to fans.
How you conclude that fans not showing up are those concluding he should spend more money I have no idea. I should think most are season tickets holders.
Its your time and you can obviously do what you like but that article does appear to contradict your view that we would make a lower annual loss in the championship - thats become almost fact for a lot on here.
So, what this shows is that despite ESI wasting money on themselves and Covid, which hit in March 2020, the operating loss in 2019/20 in the Championship was £5.3m, which was £6.6mm, £8.0m and £9.0m better than in L1 in the preceding three seasons. The main reason is the top line - central income. I would argue and have that Duchatelet should have spent SOME of that on improving the squad to increase the chances of staying up, but nothing like all of it.
The 2015/16 figure is an outlier because Duchatelet spent heavily trying to stay up which you can see was then largely recouped by player trading, The 2020/21 figure is distorted because almost all the season was behind closed doors and Sandgaard transferred the leasehold assets (the stands) to Roland as part of his lease agreement. They were previously on the football club balance sheet.
It is just a fact that Charlton have tended to lose less money in the Championship than L1, although the losses accelerated under Roland. The figure was £7.2m in 2013/14 and £7.8m in 2014/15.
Have a good look at those commercial income figures in L1 while you're there.
Your table doesn’t really prove anything tbh - the central income is different but the fact we hadn’t upped the players wages to championship level and signed the players needed to stay there, meant we just pocketed the extra money - to stay there you would have to spend that extra money - millwalls actual accounts kind of prove that ? You’ve said yourself there income through gate receipts is similar to ours so why would our losses be any different ?
It is a fact that in the last nine seasons for which we have figures, Charlton's operating losses have consistently been much higher in League One than in the Championship - with the exception of 2015/16. I am not excluding 2020/21 because the announced number is distorted by an £8.1m asset transfer to Roland. Not sure why that is so hard to understand.
Roland/ESI could have spent another £5m on players' wages in 2019/20 and the operating loss would still have been lower than the preceding three seasons in L1 by some margin.
Not difficult to understand just not what your table shows - anyway it’s Friday, time for a beer
It’s a dynamic situation, admittedly, but generally we have lost more money in L1 than in the Championship. I don’t accept it’s either/or - there is a middle ground which Millwall have occupied quite successfully in recent years. We were relegated in 19/20 because RD starved the football side of resources.
in any case, TS isn’t “running a tight ship” - he’s reducing crowds with unrealistic prices and removing committed staff on spurious grounds. It’s amateurish and so is his commentary on it.
In all likelihood by dint of finances or personality, TS cannot and will not make it work. He may have done better with a more professional approach but ultimately we need to get the ground back and that will take someone with bigger pockets.
I do not claim any great knowledge of the veracity of the research, but according to this article, Millwall were running £10million losses annually even pre-Covid, and had lost £78million in the last decade. So, if that is accurate, it rather proves the point.
I don't necessarily disagree with you that TS has made various mistakes (often in taking the fans at their word) and, personally, I would be more cautious with price rises than he has been - although it does strike me as hilarious that the same fans who are currently in meltdown because he is not putting his hand in his pocket to buy more players, simply decide not to show up when they are asked to put their hands in their own pockets.
The facts remain: promotion does not offer a way out of this (just larger numbers on the P&L and the same debts, if not more), a cost-of-business crisis is coming (the club's electricity bill next quarter will be eye-watering), and so clubs need to cut their costs. You can certainly argue that TS is going about it in the wrong way, but this is a process that needs to happen.
I’m not going to spend a lot of time researching Millwall’s accounts but the fact remains they have had two seasons in L1 in the last 12, have been the Championship for the last five and they haven’t gone bust or been relegated in that time. Nobody in their right mind believes they have a stronger commercial or supporter base than Charlton. So clearly it is possible and Charlton’s lowest operating loss in recent years was also in the Championship. We went down on the last day by virtue of one goal -Taylor’s absence, if you like, so relegation was not inevitable even though Duchatelet’s miserly playing budget created the problem.
Is Championship football the solution - no. But it gives you significantly more income to utilise and it makes you much more attractive to a buyer, plus it is an easier sell to fans.
How you conclude that fans not showing up are those concluding he should spend more money I have no idea. I should think most are season tickets holders.
Its your time and you can obviously do what you like but that article does appear to contradict your view that we would make a lower annual loss in the championship - thats become almost fact for a lot on here.
I’m not sure there’s a contradiction there at all. Charlton’s average attendances are still 2-3,000 more than Millwall over the last few seasons while we’ve been in a lower division. The uplift potential for Charlton from higher crowds, even if only a further 2-3,000, and commercial opportunities is greater than Millwall have shown they can generate despite having their “best ever” main sponsorship deal.
I thought their income was similar even with lower gates as they charged more ? I’m sure airman has said that when trying to prove something else ?
Correct our income did come in as similar. Not sure it’s because we charge more. Probably more to do with the fact that the extra 2 or 3 thousand charlton appear to get aren’t actually paying fans.
Not sure about that - my sister in law works for the nhs - millwall been dumping tickets on them for years
It’s a dynamic situation, admittedly, but generally we have lost more money in L1 than in the Championship. I don’t accept it’s either/or - there is a middle ground which Millwall have occupied quite successfully in recent years. We were relegated in 19/20 because RD starved the football side of resources.
in any case, TS isn’t “running a tight ship” - he’s reducing crowds with unrealistic prices and removing committed staff on spurious grounds. It’s amateurish and so is his commentary on it.
In all likelihood by dint of finances or personality, TS cannot and will not make it work. He may have done better with a more professional approach but ultimately we need to get the ground back and that will take someone with bigger pockets.
I do not claim any great knowledge of the veracity of the research, but according to this article, Millwall were running £10million losses annually even pre-Covid, and had lost £78million in the last decade. So, if that is accurate, it rather proves the point.
I don't necessarily disagree with you that TS has made various mistakes (often in taking the fans at their word) and, personally, I would be more cautious with price rises than he has been - although it does strike me as hilarious that the same fans who are currently in meltdown because he is not putting his hand in his pocket to buy more players, simply decide not to show up when they are asked to put their hands in their own pockets.
The facts remain: promotion does not offer a way out of this (just larger numbers on the P&L and the same debts, if not more), a cost-of-business crisis is coming (the club's electricity bill next quarter will be eye-watering), and so clubs need to cut their costs. You can certainly argue that TS is going about it in the wrong way, but this is a process that needs to happen.
I’m not going to spend a lot of time researching Millwall’s accounts but the fact remains they have had two seasons in L1 in the last 12, have been the Championship for the last five and they haven’t gone bust or been relegated in that time. Nobody in their right mind believes they have a stronger commercial or supporter base than Charlton. So clearly it is possible and Charlton’s lowest operating loss in recent years was also in the Championship. We went down on the last day by virtue of one goal -Taylor’s absence, if you like, so relegation was not inevitable even though Duchatelet’s miserly playing budget created the problem.
Is Championship football the solution - no. But it gives you significantly more income to utilise and it makes you much more attractive to a buyer, plus it is an easier sell to fans.
How you conclude that fans not showing up are those concluding he should spend more money I have no idea. I should think most are season tickets holders.
Its your time and you can obviously do what you like but that article does appear to contradict your view that we would make a lower annual loss in the championship - thats become almost fact for a lot on here.
I’m not sure there’s a contradiction there at all. Charlton’s average attendances are still 2-3,000 more than Millwall over the last few seasons while we’ve been in a lower division. The uplift potential for Charlton from higher crowds, even if only a further 2-3,000, and commercial opportunities is greater than Millwall have shown they can generate despite having their “best ever” main sponsorship deal.
I thought their income was similar even with lower gates as they charged more ? I’m sure airman has said that when trying to prove something else ?
Correct our income did come in as similar. Not sure it’s because we charge more. Probably more to do with the fact that the extra 2 or 3 thousand charlton appear to get aren’t actually paying fans.
I've always back Sandgaard, but the end of this window has done me. He hasn't got the resources, god knows what would happen if we got to the championship.
For us to compete properly, he needs to sell.
to who?
i think we are at least in a safe pair of hands with TS at the moment.
"Safe" in what sense? I think too many people believe what he says when he talks about breaking even. Nobody with any understanding of the club's finances thinks that is remotely achievable year on year. In fact, you don't even need to understand the finances - his five-year ambition, his predictions last season, his idea that he can fill The Valley in L1, his claim that he was about to achieve Category One status, the due diligence he claimed to have done on the NFT sponsor, have all been exposed. Why would anyone believe his latest line?
I would agree that Sandgaard is an upgrade on ESI and Duchatelet, has some positive personal qualities, and that the team is more interesting to watch and likely to do better than last season, but there is a big hole in the project and it is his credibility. It isn't going to work financially and for that reason the club is far from "safe", albeit it's a slow motion car crash this time.
The end game will be someone buying Duchatelet out, in my opinion. It won't be Thomas.
There are three types of fan at the moment and I will rank them in order of importance to the future of the club. I have held this view for quite some time but appreciate it is not a popular one. I shall start with the least important fans. These are the ones that are Charlton through and through and would watch us every week in the national league. They would be the most important if there was enough of them but there isn't and as they will eat whatever shit they are given, why bother giving them anything decent.
Then you have the next most important. Charlton fans who may be a bit disillusioned in recent years and are no longer season ticket holders and um and ah about whether to attend a game or not. They are and always will be Charlton fans though. They are the next most important as they can make the crowds and revenues more decent but probably not enough ultimately. You can of course take a leaf out of a certain poster's book and call them all traitors and you know whats but that won't get them back. Good winning football and optimism for the future after so many knock backs will do that.
Then you have the most important fans of all. These are potential and fickle fans who need persuading Charlton is their club. The demographics in our catchment area is a positive and suggests there is something to unlock, but you need a key to unlock it. And a plan.
Of course this isn't fair on the true die hard fans but it that doesn't make it untrue IMO. There will always be a few thousand turning up and watching us play Barnet in the National League. But the club has to grow, not shrink. It is already in a place where it is too big to be viable and it either has to get out of that place or shrink appropriately. Which it is gradually doing from what I can see.
I like that breakdown of fans @MuttleyCAFC. I would say for your 'most important' category, two subtypes there: fickle fans and those who are not into football yet. For the fickle fans, I suppose nothing less than cheap tickets and a team that wins lots of matches will do. The interesting subtype is those who are not into football yet: for these, free tickets can work if done properly, as would work in the community, advertising and a good matchday experience - I tried to attend a Dulwich Hamlet match last season and it was totally sold out so couldn't make it, but the atmosphere there I am told can well compete with the best establishments in Peckham Rye.
It’s a dynamic situation, admittedly, but generally we have lost more money in L1 than in the Championship. I don’t accept it’s either/or - there is a middle ground which Millwall have occupied quite successfully in recent years. We were relegated in 19/20 because RD starved the football side of resources.
in any case, TS isn’t “running a tight ship” - he’s reducing crowds with unrealistic prices and removing committed staff on spurious grounds. It’s amateurish and so is his commentary on it.
In all likelihood by dint of finances or personality, TS cannot and will not make it work. He may have done better with a more professional approach but ultimately we need to get the ground back and that will take someone with bigger pockets.
I do not claim any great knowledge of the veracity of the research, but according to this article, Millwall were running £10million losses annually even pre-Covid, and had lost £78million in the last decade. So, if that is accurate, it rather proves the point.
I don't necessarily disagree with you that TS has made various mistakes (often in taking the fans at their word) and, personally, I would be more cautious with price rises than he has been - although it does strike me as hilarious that the same fans who are currently in meltdown because he is not putting his hand in his pocket to buy more players, simply decide not to show up when they are asked to put their hands in their own pockets.
The facts remain: promotion does not offer a way out of this (just larger numbers on the P&L and the same debts, if not more), a cost-of-business crisis is coming (the club's electricity bill next quarter will be eye-watering), and so clubs need to cut their costs. You can certainly argue that TS is going about it in the wrong way, but this is a process that needs to happen.
I’m not going to spend a lot of time researching Millwall’s accounts but the fact remains they have had two seasons in L1 in the last 12, have been the Championship for the last five and they haven’t gone bust or been relegated in that time. Nobody in their right mind believes they have a stronger commercial or supporter base than Charlton. So clearly it is possible and Charlton’s lowest operating loss in recent years was also in the Championship. We went down on the last day by virtue of one goal -Taylor’s absence, if you like, so relegation was not inevitable even though Duchatelet’s miserly playing budget created the problem.
Is Championship football the solution - no. But it gives you significantly more income to utilise and it makes you much more attractive to a buyer, plus it is an easier sell to fans.
How you conclude that fans not showing up are those concluding he should spend more money I have no idea. I should think most are season tickets holders.
Its your time and you can obviously do what you like but that article does appear to contradict your view that we would make a lower annual loss in the championship - thats become almost fact for a lot on here.
I’m not sure there’s a contradiction there at all. Charlton’s average attendances are still 2-3,000 more than Millwall over the last few seasons while we’ve been in a lower division. The uplift potential for Charlton from higher crowds, even if only a further 2-3,000, and commercial opportunities is greater than Millwall have shown they can generate despite having their “best ever” main sponsorship deal.
I thought their income was similar even with lower gates as they charged more ? I’m sure airman has said that when trying to prove something else ?
Correct our income did come in as similar. Not sure it’s because we charge more. Probably more to do with the fact that the extra 2 or 3 thousand charlton appear to get aren’t actually paying fans.
Not sure about that - my sister in law works for the nhs - millwall been dumping tickets on them for years
Is that so they can have people on hand to treat the injured free of charge?
Players like Robson Kanu & Vydra (who were playing for Premier League/high end Championship clubs) are not going to resettle in London for £3k-£5k per week. Not on your nelly.
They may want to stay fit and keep their names out there so a short term contract maybe possible. The trouble with negativity is that nobody is good enough, too old, too young, unfit, injury prone, too expensive, too short, too timid, too aggressive etc etc. and you may well be right.
What I do know is that if you don’t try it certainly won’t happen. Remember when we signed the European footballer of the year?
Yeah we were bankrupt and homeless within a year or two. Maybe we should true that again.
And that was the cause was it?
So your suggestion is that we just give up. Well you go and hide behind the settee.
Of course it was a contributing factor.
You bang on about how brilliant it is that we are "sustainable" and how brilliant it is, despite that fact we are not sustainable at all. Then you suggest paying a player the same as the rest of the team put together is worth trying.
I never once suggest we should give up.
But you keep believing everything is wonderful if it helps.
What do you mean? Just don't have a window. It is after all, a relatively new idea.
So the championship play off is two days away, you can sign a player who’s way too good for that league and give him 50m win bonus even though he’s not played a single game for you. Hell, you could even sell him back the next day? Cos that’s where no window leads too.
What do you mean? Just don't have a window. It is after all, a relatively new idea.
So the championship play off is two days away, you can sign a player who’s way too good for that league and give him 50m win bonus even though he’s not played a single game for you. Hell, you could even sell him back the next day? Cos that’s where no window leads too.
That was never the case previously either - Transfer Window just ran all year apart from March to June.
Players like Robson Kanu & Vydra (who were playing for Premier League/high end Championship clubs) are not going to resettle in London for £3k-£5k per week. Not on your nelly.
They may want to stay fit and keep their names out there so a short term contract maybe possible. The trouble with negativity is that nobody is good enough, too old, too young, unfit, injury prone, too expensive, too short, too timid, too aggressive etc etc. and you may well be right.
What I do know is that if you don’t try it certainly won’t happen. Remember when we signed the European footballer of the year?
Yeah we were bankrupt and homeless within a year or two. Maybe we should true that again.
And that was the cause was it?
So your suggestion is that we just give up. Well you go and hide behind the settee.
Of course it was a contributing factor.
You bang on about how brilliant it is that we are "sustainable" and how brilliant it is, despite that fact we are not sustainable at all. Then you suggest paying a player the same as the rest of the team put together is worth trying.
I never once suggest we should give up.
But you keep believing everything is wonderful if it helps.
What a load of bull. I was talking about getting a player out of contract, and I don’t think I have ever used the word sustainable ever let alone bang on about it so I assume you are thinking of someone else.
Do you really believe that six months wages for Kanu would be more than our team put together? Do you really believe that signing him would send us into bankruptcy?
What do you mean? Just don't have a window. It is after all, a relatively new idea.
So the championship play off is two days away, you can sign a player who’s way too good for that league and give him 50m win bonus even though he’s not played a single game for you. Hell, you could even sell him back the next day? Cos that’s where no window leads too.
No. It used to be that you couldn't sign new players after about mid-March.
What do you mean? Just don't have a window. It is after all, a relatively new idea.
So the championship play off is two days away, you can sign a player who’s way too good for that league and give him 50m win bonus even though he’s not played a single game for you. Hell, you could even sell him back the next day? Cos that’s where no window leads too.
No. It used to be that you couldn't sign new players after about mid-March.
It worked fine before 2002.
That’ll just benefit the big boys even more so surely. Teams will sign players as and when they like and then come March the Rich clubs will load up on short term deals to get trophies and promotions over the line.
Players like Robson Kanu & Vydra (who were playing for Premier League/high end Championship clubs) are not going to resettle in London for £3k-£5k per week. Not on your nelly.
They may want to stay fit and keep their names out there so a short term contract maybe possible. The trouble with negativity is that nobody is good enough, too old, too young, unfit, injury prone, too expensive, too short, too timid, too aggressive etc etc. and you may well be right.
What I do know is that if you don’t try it certainly won’t happen. Remember when we signed the European footballer of the year?
Matej Vydra would much rather come home than play in the English 3rd division, I am sure of that. He is still in and around the Czech national side, and he could sign for one of the big 3 and have a good chance of some Euro club action if one of the bigger teams snapped him up. Whats more the league is 30 games and the domestic Cup not much valued. He probably would not be paid £3k week, but the cost of living is way lower and home is home, Many Czech players return in the evening of their careers.
Comments
That'll confuse the youngsters
So your suggestion is that we just give up. Well you go and hide behind the settee.
Roland/ESI could have spent another £5m on players' wages in 2019/20 and the operating loss would still have been lower than the preceding three seasons in L1 by some margin.
Abolish the transfer window; it inflates prices, gets everyone too worked up, and yet it is totally unnecessary.
You bang on about how brilliant it is that we are "sustainable" and how brilliant it is, despite that fact we are not sustainable at all. Then you suggest paying a player the same as the rest of the team put together is worth trying.
I never once suggest we should give up.
But you keep believing everything is wonderful if it helps.
It worked fine before 2002.