Amazing how people’s loyalties are so entrenched that they can’t even call this out as a bad thing. Sad really.
I think the people with entrenched loyalties might be the same dozen or so who manage to turn literally any issue happening in the UK into a Brexit/Tory issue. It's boring.
Haven't seen anyone saying this isn't a bad thing by the way, but feel free to quote the posts that do :-)
Well if anybody criticises the government, the same clique cry foul, even when the criticism appears to be fully justified. This is what I mean. Too entrenched in their views to accept reality.
Amazing how people’s loyalties are so entrenched that they can’t even call this out as a bad thing. Sad really.
I think the people with entrenched loyalties might be the same dozen or so who manage to turn literally any issue happening in the UK into a Brexit/Tory issue. It's boring.
Haven't seen anyone saying this isn't a bad thing by the way, but feel free to quote the posts that do :-)
You might find it boring but it most certainly is a tory issue. They are in charge of the country and are seemingly content with the employment laws we have.
Apparently their replacements are on £1.80 an hour.
Saw this, who on Earth could work for £1.80 an hour?!
Which is why its likely a newspaper / TV headline and not the right figure. Wherever the 'cheap labour' live in Europe that sum of money surely doesn't work and cannot be better than another poor paid job or even benefits.
Of course P&O will be paying a lot less than now and exploiting the (new) labour force but that figure (in isolation) must surely be wrong or taken out of context in some regard. Otherwise who is going to take that role up.
Amazing how people’s loyalties are so entrenched that they can’t even call this out as a bad thing. Sad really.
I think the people with entrenched loyalties might be the same dozen or so who manage to turn literally any issue happening in the UK into a Brexit/Tory issue. It's boring.
Haven't seen anyone saying this isn't a bad thing by the way, but feel free to quote the posts that do :-)
Well if anybody criticises the government, the same clique cry foul, even when the criticism appears to be fully justified. This is what I mean. Too entrenched in their views to accept reality.
Quite - this seems an incredibly odd hill to die on if you are trying to call out people for involving politics and an avowed anti-union tory party (twelve + years into its tenure) in the debate, when it is quite clearly very much a political issue, and one that calls into question the laws that the party has been responsible for over many years. And while the Brexit link may be tenuous in some peoples opinion, the situation in other European countries does at least highlight that those countries can and do make their own laws all the time, unfettered by the EU, as many of the leading lights of the leave campaign tried (and succeeded) to get people to believe was not the case.
When 800 British workers get sacked, to be replaced by (mainly) foreign workers, with fewer rights and significantly lower pay; when the Deputy Prime Minister, Foreign Secretary and Home Secretary have described British workers as being among the worst idlers in the world; when cargo ferries are stuck in British ports, disrupting the flow of goods between the UK and its most important export and import market - the EU; when 800 workers are sacked as they are about to face a cost of living crisis without precedent; and when the Prime Minister has backtracked on a promise to bring in new laws to stamp out abusive employment practices; then it's entirely fair to question whether the current government has done enough to mitigate the effects of P&O's decision, whether it's done enough to prevent it happening in future and whether it's complicit; and when the most egregious, disrespectful act in the redundancy - that is, not bothering with a consultation period - highlights the fact that it's EU law (specifically, the EU Collective Redundancies Directive (98/59/EC) that should be used to protect workers' rights and the government seems disinclined to move this into the UK Statute, then both Brexit and the current government are very much fair game for criticism that comes their way.
It's perfectly reasonable to hold the view that leaving the EU was and is a good thing. And it's perfectly reasonable to hold the view that we're better off with a Conservative government. What's questionable, however, is to hold those views while also demanding that neither of them should be in any way accountable for this, messy situation.
No matter how boring it is, if you're at risk of redundancy at the start of a cost of living crisis, then you should be able to rely on the law and the government to help and protect you. If that's uncomfortable for anyone who can't look beyond the footballification of politics and of Brexit, then I am not sorry. In the least.
Not sure how shipping works, but there must be a state granted licence to operate the cross channel, etc. ferries somewhere in the system. Surely? Remove that and P&O don't have a viable business. I'm sure other shipping companies would be willing to take over the cross channel and Ireland routes if P&O exited the market. So really in the government's gift to deal with.
It's awful for those involved and on reflection I'm probably (as like most) part of the problem.
I frequently traveled (12 years) pre pandemic with P&O, they I have found to be the cheapest for calais dover route with a return in the car for the weekend around £80.00. Compare this to Eurotunnel £172 for go Saturday come back Sunday it was no brainer. As far as i can remember the ferry cost has been similar.
The question being is our constant desire for the cheapest option at the expense of these P&O workers?
It's awful for those involved and on reflection I'm probably (as like most) part of the problem.
I frequently traveled (12 years) pre pandemic with P&O, they I have found to be the cheapest for calais dover route with a return in the car for the weekend around £80.00. Compare this to Eurotunnel £172 for go Saturday come back Sunday it was no brainer. As far as i can remember the ferry cost has been similar.
The question being is our constant desire for the cheapest option at the expense of these P&O workers?
You're absolutely not part of the problem. You don't set the price. You just choose the most appropriate route, fare and price for your requirements.
It could be argued that you were part of the problem if you decided not to go. But you're not part of the problem simply because you choose the best-price offer.
My eldest brother was 2nd Engineer on the Chusan and the Himmalya, the £10 POM boats. He was P&O through and through, even risked his life fighting the fire on the Canberra in the 60s. He died a few years ago.... HE TONIGHT IS SPINNING IN HIS GRAVE..., PENINSULA AND ORIENTAL STEAM COMPANY, was everything to him. Sad so sad.
Small world, @usetobunkin . My old fella was a refrigeration engineer on the Chusan in the mid 50s. Best time of his life by far.
Amazing how people’s loyalties are so entrenched that they can’t even call this out as a bad thing. Sad really.
I think the people with entrenched loyalties might be the same dozen or so who manage to turn literally any issue happening in the UK into a Brexit/Tory issue. It's boring.
Haven't seen anyone saying this isn't a bad thing by the way, but feel free to quote the posts that do :-)
Well said, they have their own section to bore the pants of each other and come out with a load of old crap, but hey ho self indulgence must be spread elsewhere. ..
It's awful for those involved and on reflection I'm probably (as like most) part of the problem.
I frequently traveled (12 years) pre pandemic with P&O, they I have found to be the cheapest for calais dover route with a return in the car for the weekend around £80.00. Compare this to Eurotunnel £172 for go Saturday come back Sunday it was no brainer. As far as i can remember the ferry cost has been similar.
The question being is our constant desire for the cheapest option at the expense of these P&O workers?
In part, almost certainly. But that's what we are like. I try hard to buy UK-made products, clothing etc but it is hard. Everything is made in China because as a nation we demand cheap tack. It has taken a large chunk out of our industrial base. I did manage to buy some made in Sheffield (Whiteleys) scissors last year. They cost £45 but are handmade, are superb and should last forever. I'm pretty sure most of the scissors on Amazon for about a tenner would have been next to useless after the first cut.
Amazing how people’s loyalties are so entrenched that they can’t even call this out as a bad thing. Sad really.
I think the people with entrenched loyalties might be the same dozen or so who manage to turn literally any issue happening in the UK into a Brexit/Tory issue. It's boring.
Haven't seen anyone saying this isn't a bad thing by the way, but feel free to quote the posts that do :-)
Well said, they have their own section to bore the pants of each other and come out with a load of old crap, but hey ho self indulgence must be spread elsewhere.
It’s a shame you guys don’t read others’ posts before posting. A reasonable debate, with reasonable people, and you come up with something like that.
Amazing how people’s loyalties are so entrenched that they can’t even call this out as a bad thing. Sad really.
I think the people with entrenched loyalties might be the same dozen or so who manage to turn literally any issue happening in the UK into a Brexit/Tory issue. It's boring.
Haven't seen anyone saying this isn't a bad thing by the way, but feel free to quote the posts that do :-)
Well said, they have their own section to bore the pants of each other and come out with a load of old crap, but hey ho self indulgence must be spread elsewhere.
It’s a shame you guys don’t read others’ posts before posting. A reasonable debate, with reasonable people, and you come up with something like that.
Or are you just on the wind up?
No wind up, nearly every thread gets turned into Brexit or Tory bashing by the same people. Like little JOBs who just talk shite as their sore losers who make up stories to pretend their angry. Makes them get through the day i guess.
And I do read other posts, but only those that talk sense and dont have a political angle. I skip through the usual suspects and ignore them unless it's their comical rantings on the Brexit thread.
But the sensible ones are getting few and far between as I know they get bored of it also.
Amazing how people’s loyalties are so entrenched that they can’t even call this out as a bad thing. Sad really.
I think the people with entrenched loyalties might be the same dozen or so who manage to turn literally any issue happening in the UK into a Brexit/Tory issue. It's boring.
Haven't seen anyone saying this isn't a bad thing by the way, but feel free to quote the posts that do :-)
Well said, they have their own section to bore the pants of each other and come out with a load of old crap, but hey ho self indulgence must be spread elsewhere.
It’s a shame you guys don’t read others’ posts before posting. A reasonable debate, with reasonable people, and you come up with something like that.
Or are you just on the wind up?
No wind up nearly every post gets turned into Brexit or Tory bashing by the same people. Like little JOBs who just talk shite as their sore losers who make up stories to pretend their angry. Makes them get through the day i guess.
And I do read other posts, but only those that talk sense and dont have a political angle. I skip through the usual suspects and ignore them unless it's their comical rantings on the Brexit thread.
But the sensible ones are getting few and far between as I know they get bored of it also.
So you don’t read the posts of people who don’t share your politics. In other words your mind is firmly closed to all arguments. That’s a shame, and it makes it hard to take your posts seriously.
Amazing how people’s loyalties are so entrenched that they can’t even call this out as a bad thing. Sad really.
I think the people with entrenched loyalties might be the same dozen or so who manage to turn literally any issue happening in the UK into a Brexit/Tory issue. It's boring.
Haven't seen anyone saying this isn't a bad thing by the way, but feel free to quote the posts that do :-)
Well said, they have their own section to bore the pants of each other and come out with a load of old crap, but hey ho self indulgence must be spread elsewhere.
It’s a shame you guys don’t read others’ posts before posting. A reasonable debate, with reasonable people, and you come up with something like that.
Or are you just on the wind up?
No wind up nearly every post gets turned into Brexit or Tory bashing by the same people. Like little JOBs who just talk shite as their sore losers who make up stories to pretend their angry. Makes them get through the day i guess.
And I do read other posts, but only those that talk sense and dont have a political angle. I skip through the usual suspects and ignore them unless it's their comical rantings on the Brexit thread.
But the sensible ones are getting few and far between as I know they get bored of it also.
Funny, because it's usually 'well you think this is bad, imagine if comrade corbyn got it'
Having spent my entire career either working on ships or ashore for shipping companies I can assure you that Joel is mostly correct. These low wages are acceptable for a number of 3rd world countries. The shipping industry is a worldwide industry and the employment contracts are dependent on where the ship is registered and is the reason that the British merchant navy is now almost non existent. P&O does not have to abide by ITF/ILO wage scales and could pay less if their ships stayed away from Western Europe and Australia where the local unions will boycott the ships. It is a cut throat business and remember that 90% of trade comes to this country by ship and no-one gives a damn about the crew conditions, I could go on but I won't.
Having spent my entire career either working on ships or ashore for shipping companies I can assure you that Joel is mostly correct. These low wages are acceptable for a number of 3rd world countries. The shipping industry is a worldwide industry and the employment contracts are dependent on where the ship is registered and is the reason that the British merchant navy is now almost non existent. P&O does not have to abide by ITF/ILO wage scales and could pay less if their ships stayed away from Western Europe and Australia where the local unions will boycott the ships. It is a cut throat business and remember that 90% of trade comes to this country by ship and no-one gives a damn about the crew conditions, I could go on but I won't.
Surely there is a but here.
I mean the salary / hourly rate may be awful but must be offset in some other way - accommodation / food / drink etc.
not for one moment condoning the figure but presume it’s worth more than the headline suggests. What I can’t see is how that works at all for UK or Europe based contract staff.
It remains an appalling figure but I struggle to see it’s the real or entire figure if they hope to have any staff at all.
Perhaps there are no french staff on the ships. Back in the day Sea France went out of business because their 'experience ' was rubbish compared to P and O. French government got fed up subsidising them
Some workers accepting £1.80 an hour could be true. I spent the last 15 years of my working life in the care industry. When I became shift or team leader I had a hard time getting some of the staff to take the supported people out. Many of the excuses were that the client didn't want to go out or they preferred to watch television. I even caught some members of staff asleep on sofas or on supported people's beds. It seems these staff had another job or even 2 jobs. The job with my company was taken 'cos they could catch up on sleep and get paid. Hope these new crews don't try that trick on the ferries. But that is how they could accept the low wage.
Having spent my entire career either working on ships or ashore for shipping companies I can assure you that Joel is mostly correct. These low wages are acceptable for a number of 3rd world countries. The shipping industry is a worldwide industry and the employment contracts are dependent on where the ship is registered and is the reason that the British merchant navy is now almost non existent. P&O does not have to abide by ITF/ILO wage scales and could pay less if their ships stayed away from Western Europe and Australia where the local unions will boycott the ships. It is a cut throat business and remember that 90% of trade comes to this country by ship and no-one gives a damn about the crew conditions, I could go on but I won't.
Surely there is a but here.
I mean the salary / hourly rate may be awful but must be offset in some other way - accommodation / food / drink etc.
not for one moment condoning the figure but presume it’s worth more than the headline suggests. What I can’t see is how that works at all for UK or Europe based contract staff.
It remains an appalling figure but I struggle to see it’s the real or entire figure if they hope to have any staff at all.
Or am I missing something?
I think your scepticism is more to do with wishful thinking than it not being a realistic scenario. It was reported at the weekend that such wages were regularly accepted by international staff of cruise ships. They took the jobs in hope of a) getting a bigger name on their cv and perhaps some technical training, thereby hoping to command higher wages in their own countries at a later date and b) supplementing their wages through tips. It would seem as though it would be tougher to earn tips on a ferry than on a cruise liner, so it'd not going to be easy.
It's also worth remembering that P&O is owned by the Dubai Royal Family. That's the same Dubai that was largely built using cheap Indian labour that was largely considered as dispensable. There's something else that ought to be boycotted.
Having spent my entire career either working on ships or ashore for shipping companies I can assure you that Joel is mostly correct. These low wages are acceptable for a number of 3rd world countries. The shipping industry is a worldwide industry and the employment contracts are dependent on where the ship is registered and is the reason that the British merchant navy is now almost non existent. P&O does not have to abide by ITF/ILO wage scales and could pay less if their ships stayed away from Western Europe and Australia where the local unions will boycott the ships. It is a cut throat business and remember that 90% of trade comes to this country by ship and no-one gives a damn about the crew conditions, I could go on but I won't.
Surely there is a but here.
I mean the salary / hourly rate may be awful but must be offset in some other way - accommodation / food / drink etc.
not for one moment condoning the figure but presume it’s worth more than the headline suggests. What I can’t see is how that works at all for UK or Europe based contract staff.
It remains an appalling figure but I struggle to see it’s the real or entire figure if they hope to have any staff at all.
Or am I missing something?
most contracts include travel; from the home country to the ship and back home. Contracts can be anything between 6-12 months food and accommodation is included as are working clothing. Often there is also overtime payments and also they will earn paid leave (holiday).
Comments
Of course P&O will be paying a lot less than now and exploiting the (new) labour force but that figure (in isolation) must surely be wrong or taken out of context in some regard. Otherwise who is going to take that role up.
It's perfectly reasonable to hold the view that leaving the EU was and is a good thing. And it's perfectly reasonable to hold the view that we're better off with a Conservative government. What's questionable, however, is to hold those views while also demanding that neither of them should be in any way accountable for this, messy situation.
No matter how boring it is, if you're at risk of redundancy at the start of a cost of living crisis, then you should be able to rely on the law and the government to help and protect you. If that's uncomfortable for anyone who can't look beyond the footballification of politics and of Brexit, then I am not sorry. In the least.
Remove that and P&O don't have a viable business. I'm sure other shipping companies would be willing to take over the cross channel and Ireland routes if P&O exited the market. So really in the government's gift to deal with.
Shakes fist.
I frequently traveled (12 years) pre pandemic with P&O, they I have found to be the cheapest for calais dover route with a return in the car for the weekend around £80.00. Compare this to Eurotunnel £172 for go Saturday come back Sunday it was no brainer. As far as i can remember the ferry cost has been similar.
The question being is our constant desire for the cheapest option at the expense of these P&O workers?
It could be argued that you were part of the problem if you decided not to go. But you're not part of the problem simply because you choose the best-price offer.
..
And I do read other posts, but only those that talk sense and dont have a political angle. I skip through the usual suspects and ignore them unless it's their comical rantings on the Brexit thread.
But the sensible ones are getting few and far between as I know they get bored of it also.
not for one moment condoning the figure but presume it’s worth more than the headline suggests. What I can’t see is how that works at all for UK or Europe based contract staff.
Same applies to the Dutch staff.
It's also worth remembering that P&O is owned by the Dubai Royal Family. That's the same Dubai that was largely built using cheap Indian labour that was largely considered as dispensable. There's something else that ought to be boycotted.