When the UK was in the EU it made the rules and was not dictated to by the rules.
To be fair to the leavers there were some rules imposed on us that our government didn’t want. Food standards and additives labelling mainly. Some of our food manufacturers were (scandalously) against these changes to the rules apparently.
Whether you think that was worth leaving the EU for is another matter.
When the UK was in the EU it made the rules and was not dictated to by the rules.
?
UK employment law has been massively influenced by the EU:
- Written Statement of Terms and Conditions - Working Time Regulations - maximum working week, rest breaks, minimum paid holidays - Health & Safety enhanced protections - Maternity and Paternity rights - Protection for part-time and agency workers - Emergency leave for dependants - Discrimination protection
I could go on.
EU membership overwhelmingly improved worker's rights - that's got to be a good thing (and I say that as an HR Director!).
Much of the legislation was negative though - if you were an unscrupulous employer.
That said, what P&O did yesterday has nothing to do with the EU or Brexit.
When you asked a leaver what specific EU rule or rules they had a problem with they couldn't answer. When really pushed they would say something like straight bananas. Which the sensible ones of us know was invented by our press. I never understood how you can be so angry about something you have no awareness of. It has to be said. These people and their Russian mates have been and are still holding our great country back.
When you asked a leaver what specific EU rule or rules they had a problem with they couldn't answer. When really pushed they would say something like straight bananas. Which the sensible ones of us know was invented by our press. I never understood how you can be so angry about something you have no awareness of. It has to be said. These people and their Russian mates have been and are still holding our great country back.
"...It would be a mistake, however, to say that all of the operator's problems stem from the pandemic.
Brexit has also clearly contributed to its difficulties.
In the pre-pandemic and pre-Brexit period, P&O Ferries was carrying some two million units of freight per year, but that is understood to have fallen as trade in goods with the EU has fallen.
This will have affected the Hull-Rotterdam crossing in particular, and it is also understood that, with fewer Irish trucking firms using Great Britain as a "land bridge" to and from continental Europe, traffic on the Liverpool-Dublin crossing will have been hurt.
In its latest results, the company singled out the Northern Ireland protocol, part of the UK's post-Brexit trade deal with the EU, as having been problematic, potentially creating headaches on the Cairnryan-Larne crossing between Scotland and Northern Ireland.
But others in the industry believe that, with Northern Ireland's unique status as being both inside the UK and inside the EU's single market, this crossing ought to remain solidly profitable. Before the pandemic, there were up to seven daily crossings from Cairnryan to Larne, with almost a quarter of all roll-on-roll-off traffic to Northern Ireland coming via Larne."
When you asked a leaver what specific EU rule or rules they had a problem with they couldn't answer. When really pushed they would say something like straight bananas. Which the sensible ones of us know was invented by our press. I never understood how you can be so angry about something you have no awareness of. It has to be said. These people and their Russian mates have been and are still holding our great country back.
Deary me...
Indeed, one likes to talk a lot...on every thread.
Have P&O sacked workers from other countries, I am thinking R of I, France and Netherlands. I am not sure where else they sail to (Spain?).
If they have only sacked UK workers, why is that. Are there protections in the EU that we don't have?
There are employment protections some EU states have that we don't have. We could have had them inside or outside the EU. We don't have them.
Indeed. My company has offices in the EU and around the world.
Every market has different employment law.
Its much easier to get rid of people in the UK than it is in Germany and Spain.
Its much easier to get rid of people in the USA than it is in the UK.
So would the people sacked have had greater protection for their jobs if we had remained within the EU?
If the answer is "yes they would have" then we have to say that Brexit has played its part in this mess. If the answer is no then, other than a possible reduction in trade that has forced cost savings, then it is less easy to point a big finger at Brexit.
Have P&O sacked workers from other countries, I am thinking R of I, France and Netherlands. I am not sure where else they sail to (Spain?).
If they have only sacked UK workers, why is that. Are there protections in the EU that we don't have?
There are employment protections some EU states have that we don't have. We could have had them inside or outside the EU. We don't have them.
Indeed. My company has offices in the EU and around the world.
Every market has different employment law.
Its much easier to get rid of people in the UK than it is in Germany and Spain.
Its much easier to get rid of people in the USA than it is in the UK.
So would the people sacked have had greater protection for their jobs if we had remained within the EU?
If the answer is "yes they would have" then we have to say that Brexit has played its part in this mess. If the answer is no then, other than a possible reduction in trade that has forced cost savings, then it is less easy to point a big finger at Brexit.
Is this accurate (I genuinely dont know)?
As I thought, broadly at the point of Brexit, all (most?) existing laws were transferred 'as is' into UK law so that we might then amend/revoke in future if we chose to independently of other EU nations. Did we already drop some HR rules/workers rights that we previously had in place?
When the UK was in the EU it made the rules and was not dictated to by the rules.
?
UK employment law has been massively influenced by the EU:
- Written Statement of Terms and Conditions - Working Time Regulations - maximum working week, rest breaks, minimum paid holidays - Health & Safety enhanced protections - Maternity and Paternity rights - Protection for part-time and agency workers - Emergency leave for dependants - Discrimination protection
I could go on.
EU membership overwhelmingly improved worker's rights - that's got to be a good thing (and I say that as an HR Director!).
Much of the legislation was negative though - if you were an unscrupulous employer.
That said, what P&O did yesterday has nothing to do with the EU or Brexit.
Were the UK part of the decision making process when those rules were introduced?
Have P&O sacked workers from other countries, I am thinking R of I, France and Netherlands. I am not sure where else they sail to (Spain?).
If they have only sacked UK workers, why is that. Are there protections in the EU that we don't have?
There are employment protections some EU states have that we don't have. We could have had them inside or outside the EU. We don't have them.
Indeed. My company has offices in the EU and around the world.
Every market has different employment law.
Its much easier to get rid of people in the UK than it is in Germany and Spain.
Its much easier to get rid of people in the USA than it is in the UK.
So would the people sacked have had greater protection for their jobs if we had remained within the EU?
If the answer is "yes they would have" then we have to say that Brexit has played its part in this mess. If the answer is no then, other than a possible reduction in trade that has forced cost savings, then it is less easy to point a big finger at Brexit.
Is this accurate (I genuinely dont know)?
As I thought, broadly at the point of Brexit, all (most?) existing laws were transferred 'as is' into UK law so that we might then amend/revoke in future if we chose to independently of other EU nations. Did we already drop some HR rules/workers rights that we previously had in place?
No the reason it happened may or may not be Brexit related, the fact it could happen isn't.
Have P&O sacked workers from other countries, I am thinking R of I, France and Netherlands. I am not sure where else they sail to (Spain?).
If they have only sacked UK workers, why is that. Are there protections in the EU that we don't have?
There are employment protections some EU states have that we don't have. We could have had them inside or outside the EU. We don't have them.
Indeed. My company has offices in the EU and around the world.
Every market has different employment law.
Its much easier to get rid of people in the UK than it is in Germany and Spain.
Its much easier to get rid of people in the USA than it is in the UK.
So would the people sacked have had greater protection for their jobs if we had remained within the EU?
If the answer is "yes they would have" then we have to say that Brexit has played its part in this mess. If the answer is no then, other than a possible reduction in trade that has forced cost savings, then it is less easy to point a big finger at Brexit.
Is this accurate (I genuinely dont know)?
As I thought, broadly at the point of Brexit, all (most?) existing laws were transferred 'as is' into UK law so that we might then amend/revoke in future if we chose to independently of other EU nations. Did we already drop some HR rules/workers rights that we previously had in place?
I think some laws were not carried over but not my area of expertise (or even interest) so may well have misrememberedand be wrong.
Flagrant breach of UK employment law To name just one: a post can't be made redundant if the function of that post still manifestly exists, in laymen's terms employers are prohibited from sacking people just to replace them with cheaper staff. The "outsourcing" of the labour function to agencies is as dimwitted as it is cynical. DP World, the ultimate owner of the business knows fine well that our #toryscum government will do naff all about it. If those ferry routes really were loss making and this goes badly for DP World they'll just pull out completely and the employees will be no better off. It's not like making 800 people redundant is a cheap option - that's a massive immediate cash outflow - so we have to infer that P&O Ferries aren't about to run out of cash... Was RMT asleep on the job? Did this really come out of the blue? RMT not known for giving employers easy rides, even when there aren't any real issues at play. P&O is sunk either way. Even if they can recruit hundreds of scabs to replace the staff, P&O is going to run the gauntlet of coordinated trades union action at the docks and a likely widespread boycott by we consumers. For the avoidance of doubt, DP World's actions here are page 1 of scumbag in chief, the haunted pencil, minister for post brexit deceit (J Rees-Mogg)'s ambition for future UK employment law. If you need convincing, his dad published a book "The Sovereign Individual" which spells this out and much more besides as to how those with wealth and power go about grasping ever more while eliminating the wealth and rights of those that actually need more.
This is absolutely shocking behaviour and totally illegal. No consultation. No warning. No nothing. It also sets a precedent and if the Government does not take immediate action then it will open the floodgates for other unscrupulous companies to do exactly the same thing.
The Government doesn't give a shit about employment rights - it's the British way.
It's worse than that, this government is actively pursuing the elimination of workers' rights. The British way has been to establish and enshrine workers' rights. Until the political calumny and witless self-harm of the brexit vote, GB's employment rights were among the strongest and most encompassing of all the world's leading economies. In most areas, our regulations and rights led the way in the EU, not the other way around.
This is absolutely shocking behaviour and totally illegal. No consultation. No warning. No nothing. It also sets a precedent and if the Government does not take immediate action then it will open the floodgates for other unscrupulous companies to do exactly the same thing.
The Government doesn't give a shit about employment rights - it's the British way.
It's worse than that, this government is actively pursuing the elimination of workers' rights. The British way has been to establish and enshrine workers' rights. Until the political calumny and witless self-harm of the brexit vote, GB's employment rights were among the strongest and most encompassing of all the world's leading economies. In most areas, our regulations and rights led the way in the EU, not the other way around.
Must admit I was surprised at the condemnation of P&O’s actions across the Tory press today. They are normally only to happy to side with employers against unionised employees. Must have been the talk of ‘foreigners’ replacing the existing workforce.
Several of the current cabinet were behind the "Britannia Unchained" book that claimed the EU employment laws were hindering business. The ability to fire without notice was one of the things that would improve "efficiency" https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/aug/22/britannia-unchained-rise-of-new-tory-right That was why they drove he hard version of Brexit through Parliament
This is absolutely shocking behaviour and totally illegal. No consultation. No warning. No nothing. It also sets a precedent and if the Government does not take immediate action then it will open the floodgates for other unscrupulous companies to do exactly the same thing.
The Government doesn't give a shit about employment rights - it's the British way.
It's worse than that, this government is actively pursuing the elimination of workers' rights. The British way has been to establish and enshrine workers' rights. Until the political calumny and witless self-harm of the brexit vote, GB's employment rights were among the strongest and most encompassing of all the world's leading economies. In most areas, our regulations and rights led the way in the EU, not the other way around.
Disagree that we led the way in the EU on that. Our workers rights are nothing compared to France. They continue to lead the way. For example, 'The Right to Disconnect' and not be contactable via email outside of working hours, something implemented there in 2017 and still not even mentioned over here.
I was quite shocked talking to a pregnant French colleague once about the benefits she'd get if she went on maternity leave in France.
This is absolutely shocking behaviour and totally illegal. No consultation. No warning. No nothing. It also sets a precedent and if the Government does not take immediate action then it will open the floodgates for other unscrupulous companies to do exactly the same thing.
The Government doesn't give a shit about employment rights - it's the British way.
It's worse than that, this government is actively pursuing the elimination of workers' rights. The British way has been to establish and enshrine workers' rights. Until the political calumny and witless self-harm of the brexit vote, GB's employment rights were among the strongest and most encompassing of all the world's leading economies. In most areas, our regulations and rights led the way in the EU, not the other way around.
Disagree that we led the way in the EU on that. Our workers rights are nothing compared to France. They continue to lead the way. For example, 'The Right to Disconnect' and not be contactable via email outside of working hours, something implemented there in 2017 and still not even mentioned over here.
I was quite shocked talking to a pregnant French colleague once about the benefits she'd get if she went on maternity leave in France.
Good. In the days of flexible working, how could this even be possible now. Implementing something like that now would take us back years and pretty much discriminate against working mums.
This is absolutely shocking behaviour and totally illegal. No consultation. No warning. No nothing. It also sets a precedent and if the Government does not take immediate action then it will open the floodgates for other unscrupulous companies to do exactly the same thing.
The Government doesn't give a shit about employment rights - it's the British way.
It's worse than that, this government is actively pursuing the elimination of workers' rights. The British way has been to establish and enshrine workers' rights. Until the political calumny and witless self-harm of the brexit vote, GB's employment rights were among the strongest and most encompassing of all the world's leading economies. In most areas, our regulations and rights led the way in the EU, not the other way around.
Disagree that we led the way in the EU on that. Our workers rights are nothing compared to France. They continue to lead the way. For example, 'The Right to Disconnect' and not be contactable via email outside of working hours, something implemented there in 2017 and still not even mentioned over here.
I was quite shocked talking to a pregnant French colleague once about the benefits she'd get if she went on maternity leave in France.
Good. In the days of flexible working, how could this even be possible now. Implementing something like that now would take us back years and pretty much discriminate against working mums.
What it protects against is this trend where — because you've got a smartphone in your pocket — companies expect you to be available 24-hours to answer emails and do work, which is what some industries expect these days, especially mine (advertising). There is no longer a clear line between work and home life, it's been blurred, much to the detriment of our mental health.
For with mums with flexible working hours, it just means they have the right to focus entirely on their families entirely outside of the time they've agreed to work.
The current government didn't cause this egregious and abhorrent exercise in vulture capitalism by P&O. But they can mitigate it in one, simple step and, by doing so, send out a signal that would prevent other employers doing the same.
The government should immediately take steps to nationalise P&O Ferries, tupe employees' statuses over to the new entity, and force the current owners to meet the redundancy payments of any employees who decide to accept the terms offered. And, the government should do so at a cost to the taxpayer of £1.
This would:
- enable the 800 workers to continue in employment - reduce the cost of the business (as the government would leave the debt with the current owners) - shore-up the economies in hard-pressed ports ('leveling up' anyone?) - demonstrate an actual benefit of Brexit (ie state intervention) - and win votes ahead of the May elections
And, with the fleet re-painted in Union Jack colours and a patriotic marketing campaign, the new P&O Ferries would be set for a bumper year.
It's a perfect opportunity. But it won't happen, of course. There's nothing in it for individual ministers.
My eldest brother was 2nd Engineer on the Chusan and the Himmalya, the £10 POM boats. He was P&O through and through, even risked his life fighting the fire on the Canberra in the 60s. He died a few years ago.... HE TONIGHT IS SPINNING IN HIS GRAVE..., PENINSULA AND ORIENTAL STEAM COMPANY, was everything to him. Sad so sad.
So in conclusion are we saying that this is a commercial decision only by P&O and that Brexit has made no difference to the laws seemingly breached by them?
Im not clear what he government can actually legally do to mitigate the selfish actions of P&O management.
Seems they (P & O) may simply have taken advice that this can be done at x cost and will try and ride out the repetitional damage.
Says all you need to know about those individuals if true. Sadly doubt a boycott of the company will emerge.
So in conclusion are we saying that this is a commercial decision only by P&O and that Brexit has made no difference to the laws seemingly breached by them?
Im not clear what the government can actually legally do to mitigate the selfish actions of P&O management.
Seems they (P & O) may simply have taken advice that this can be done at x cost and will try and ride out the repetitional damage.
Says all you need to know about those individuals if true. Sadly doubt a boycott of the company will emerge.
The government can relieve the owners of the burden of ownership of P&O, rehire the staff and run the business until a more suitable owner comes along.
Comments
UK employment law has been massively influenced by the EU:
- Written Statement of Terms and Conditions
- Working Time Regulations - maximum working week, rest breaks, minimum paid holidays
- Health & Safety enhanced protections
- Maternity and Paternity rights
- Protection for part-time and agency workers
- Emergency leave for dependants
- Discrimination protection
I could go on.
EU membership overwhelmingly improved worker's rights - that's got to be a good thing (and I say that as an HR Director!).
Much of the legislation was negative though - if you were an unscrupulous employer.
That said, what P&O did yesterday has nothing to do with the EU or Brexit.
Deary me...
If they have only sacked UK workers, why is that. Are there protections in the EU that we don't have?
"...It would be a mistake, however, to say that all of the operator's problems stem from the pandemic.
Brexit has also clearly contributed to its difficulties.
In the pre-pandemic and pre-Brexit period, P&O Ferries was carrying some two million units of freight per year, but that is understood to have fallen as trade in goods with the EU has fallen.
This will have affected the Hull-Rotterdam crossing in particular, and it is also understood that, with fewer Irish trucking firms using Great Britain as a "land bridge" to and from continental Europe, traffic on the Liverpool-Dublin crossing will have been hurt.
In its latest results, the company singled out the Northern Ireland protocol, part of the UK's post-Brexit trade deal with the EU, as having been problematic, potentially creating headaches on the Cairnryan-Larne crossing between Scotland and Northern Ireland.
But others in the industry believe that, with Northern Ireland's unique status as being both inside the UK and inside the EU's single market, this crossing ought to remain solidly profitable. Before the pandemic, there were up to seven daily crossings from Cairnryan to Larne, with almost a quarter of all roll-on-roll-off traffic to Northern Ireland coming via Larne."
Every market has different employment law.
Its much easier to get rid of people in the UK than it is in Germany and Spain.
Its much easier to get rid of people in the USA than it is in the UK.
If the answer is "yes they would have" then we have to say that Brexit has played its part in this mess. If the answer is no then, other than a possible reduction in trade that has forced cost savings, then it is less easy to point a big finger at Brexit.
As I thought, broadly at the point of Brexit, all (most?) existing laws were transferred 'as is' into UK law so that we might then amend/revoke in future if we chose to independently of other EU nations. Did we already drop some HR rules/workers rights that we previously had in place?
To name just one: a post can't be made redundant if the function of that post still manifestly exists, in laymen's terms employers are prohibited from sacking people just to replace them with cheaper staff.
The "outsourcing" of the labour function to agencies is as dimwitted as it is cynical.
DP World, the ultimate owner of the business knows fine well that our #toryscum government will do naff all about it. If those ferry routes really were loss making and this goes badly for DP World they'll just pull out completely and the employees will be no better off. It's not like making 800 people redundant is a cheap option - that's a massive immediate cash outflow - so we have to infer that P&O Ferries aren't about to run out of cash...
Was RMT asleep on the job? Did this really come out of the blue? RMT not known for giving employers easy rides, even when there aren't any real issues at play.
P&O is sunk either way. Even if they can recruit hundreds of scabs to replace the staff, P&O is going to run the gauntlet of coordinated trades union action at the docks and a likely widespread boycott by we consumers.
For the avoidance of doubt, DP World's actions here are page 1 of scumbag in chief, the haunted pencil, minister for post brexit deceit (J Rees-Mogg)'s ambition for future UK employment law.
If you need convincing, his dad published a book "The Sovereign Individual" which spells this out and much more besides as to how those with wealth and power go about grasping ever more while eliminating the wealth and rights of those that actually need more.
The British way has been to establish and enshrine workers' rights. Until the political calumny and witless self-harm of the brexit vote, GB's employment rights were among the strongest and most encompassing of all the world's leading economies. In most areas, our regulations and rights led the way in the EU, not the other way around.
people will just use the ferry with the best price/convenience combination for them
Give him the weekend to 'get P&O done' and 800 jobs will be reinstated by Monday.
I was quite shocked talking to a pregnant French colleague once about the benefits she'd get if she went on maternity leave in France.
For with mums with flexible working hours, it just means they have the right to focus entirely on their families entirely outside of the time they've agreed to work.
The government should immediately take steps to nationalise P&O Ferries, tupe employees' statuses over to the new entity, and force the current owners to meet the redundancy payments of any employees who decide to accept the terms offered. And, the government should do so at a cost to the taxpayer of £1.
This would:
- enable the 800 workers to continue in employment
- reduce the cost of the business (as the government would leave the debt with the current owners)
- shore-up the economies in hard-pressed ports ('leveling up' anyone?)
- demonstrate an actual benefit of Brexit (ie state intervention)
- and win votes ahead of the May elections
And, with the fleet re-painted in Union Jack colours and a patriotic marketing campaign, the new P&O Ferries would be set for a bumper year.
It's a perfect opportunity. But it won't happen, of course. There's nothing in it for individual ministers.
Im not clear what he government can actually legally do to mitigate the selfish actions of P&O management.