bigstemarra, great post in so much as I’d genuinely love to see the responses and possible challenges, as I love genuine, good healthy debate where one side does not just shut the other down as they don’t agree with the view. Your view aligns very closely with mine on this issue but is more informed, evidenced and articulated.
Hopefully people can see that opposing the knee (the symbol) and the group (BLM) does not make you a racist, being racist does.
I am disappointed that you haven't taken the opportunity to properly explain why you would boo @Billericay Dickie
@bigstemarra - OK... I can see how some people are still equating the taking of the knee with BLM - despite it not originating with them and e.g. Gareth Southgate overtly saying that he and thr players were not aligning themselves with BLM
Would you/people who want to boo the taking of the knee be able to get behind some other symbolic anti racism gesture made by players?
As soon as I saw, what appears on the surface to be a laudable request, I knew that it would simply be another bait and switch tactic by the usual suspects.
No right minded person would have a problem with racists being ejected from football grounds and banned or being prosecuted for their cowardly abuse on social media. To a large extent, this already happens. But that will not be enough - nothing will ever be enough when there is a grievance industry to be sustained and further division to foment (see how Stonewall achieved a tremendous amount for LGBT, but has now lost the plot). So, once you have people on board, then you can safely move the goalposts. A time honoured tactic used by left and right.
'Support action against racists' becomes 'support action against those who will not abase themselves before BLM'; utterly predictable and utterly dishonest. That is clearly the intention here, and may have fallen for it.
Kick it out is an anti-racist movement in the spirit of MLK.
However, BLM is a divisive, racist, violent organisation that represents division; the opposite to the legacy of MLK.
Trying to conflate the two is disingenuous to say the least. Just some examples:
So, BLM, as well no doubt consisting of a lot of well-intentioned people, unfortunately has more than a sprinkling of extremist nutjobs. I don't like extremist nutjobs, so as far as I am concerned, they can get f**ked and take their divisive, racist nonsense with them. Kick It Out? No problem with them as they don't appear to be steered by such divisive lunacy.
Now, some footballers, unwisely IMHO, decided to reject the inclusive movement that was Kick It Out, and instead, because it was trendy and a bit edgy, they decided to adopt a cause from overseas. As such, they have taken on all the baggage, both good and bad if they like it or not. That's how it works - tough shit.
Estimates of between 19-25 deaths (depending on who is deciding) are directly attributable to this 'benign' organisation, including the death of an 8 year old girl killed at a roadblock set up by BLM thugs to 'protect their community' because her mother was scared and did not stop her car. Of course, very few of you will have heard of this because most of the mainstream media in this country has decided that anything that doesn't fit the narrative must be censored. This was not mentioned at all by the BBC, despite being headline news in the US for several days; contrast this with blanket news coverage of everything BLM by the BBC up until this point, including every z list celebrity's views on it on social media:
Even the massively woke NYT reported it and the predictable bloodbath that ensued when the police allowed communities to 'police themselves' in what has been a murderous disaster wherever it has occurred.
That is just one example of the 'achievements' of BLM, or 'Burn, Loot, Murder' as it has become known to many. So, it isn't as simple as black and white:
'Meanwhile, despite BLM’s anti-police narrative, poll after poll shows most black Americans don’t support the movement’s radical ideas. Last summer, a much-publicized Gallup poll found that 81 percent of black Americans favored the same or higher levels of police presence in their neighborhoods. In the aftermath of George Floyd’s death, a poll in Minneapolis showed that reducing the city’s police force was more unpopular among black residents than their white counterparts.'
Very interesting, the last sentence, and so typical of the age of the (usually white) woke warrior, who always knows better than those actually affected by the issues on which they sanctimoniously pontificate:
So, what has it actually, materially, achieved for black people to make their lives better and to protect them from violence? absolutely sod all, it's made things worse (apart from some of those in the movement who are considerably enriched, despite wanting to 'abolish capitalism':
So, instead of virtue signalling on social media, maybe high profile footballers on social media could actually DO something about it instead, e.g boycott social media until they properly police hate speech online and stop making it easier for cowardly racists to anonymously abuse others online. If they and all of those in football did this (and not just for one sodding day) then something might actually happen. However, it does inconvenience some people, so it is unlikely to happen when empty virtue signalling is the other option and requires no actual action. Twitter could solve this problem easily if they wanted to; they just need persuading in the only way that works for corporations - hit their profit margin. But do people actually care enough to boycott Twitter for a bit? I suspect not, but we shall see.
Bin the toxic BLM knee bending sanctimony and re-adopt Kick It Out, a genuine anti-racist organisation with none of the negative connotations, condoning of violence and murder and loopy sixth form politics to taint it. I am not denying that some will boo taking the knee for racist reasons, but others will have genuine reasons to do so; not least because North Korean type compulsory public displays of loyalty are distinctly suspect to many, and this is why I would also support the rights of individuals to resist compulsion to partake in anything from singing the national anthem to wearing the poppy. It is our right in a free country to have our own opinions and not be prosecuted for them, which is what this petition, ultimately seeks to do. We go down that road at our peril.
are we really using one twitter handle to represent an entire decentralised movement?
I intend to boo if I see any players taking the knee at the Valley next season.
I believe that I am simply expressing my rights under the freedom of speech laws. But I am sure some other fans will call me a racist.
Therefore I will delay signing this petition until I see what the reaction is to my booing.
Why are you booing though? I've not heard anyone say why they were booing apart from some rubbish about Marxism. If you've not got a convincing reason for booing an anti-racist gesture, it's reasonable to assume that you are booing because you are against anti-racism.
Taking the knee is a political gesture that is uncalled for in English football.
Black life’s matter, White life’s matter, All life’s matter.
I go to football to watch the game, not for players to preach to me their political beliefs.
Players go to football to play football and not be racially abused. That's the whole point of the knee.
It has bee made abundantly clear in recent weeks that it is not linked to the marxist blm movement / any anarchic agenda and that our players version is solely as a show of anti racist unity.
If you still dont acknowledge it as that or are uncomfortable it would be respectful to stay silent for the 4 seconds it takes rather than boo.
It's just common decency and requires nothing but courtesy to do so.
You're not being asked to applaud or join or condone a subtext of an anti capitalist agenda.
It is literally a well intentioned way for players to convey unity against racism that still affects many of our players with alarming frequency as demonstrated on Sunday.
People saying that it is are trying to cover up their own racism.
I don't think that's true. I initially felt it was a bit naff and felt uncomfortable that it was linked to a political agenda and wouldnt have booed it but could see why people thought it was out of place.
But because of that it has been made emphatically clear it's not in any way linked to any political motive in recent months and it is clearly no more than a way for players to show solidarity against racism.
brb gonna create a twitter handle called CharltonLifePosters and post controversial shit so people will hate on this forum and call us all anarchist scum.
Let's take a couple of random players taking the knee. Sterling and Rice. Do we need to ask them if they are members of the political movement? Do we honestly have to do that? I don't think so, we all know they are not. So it isn't too much of a stretch once you rule that out to accept they are doing it for the reasons they have stated. If you think they are lying and are secret members you have real problems.
So assuming you don't have these problems, just accept their reasoning for it. You may think it has gone on too long or there may be better ways. That is a fair enough position, but it isn't a reason to boo. It is 10 seconds tops and doesn't affect anything about the game. Blink and you miss it. Clap them in solidarity with their message or do nothing. Don't boo them because you have not got the wit to understand why they are doing it despite all the unsubtle clues.
It would be a useless protest if it was about something the protesters have said it isn't about. When you protest, you do specify why or it becomes a meaningless act.
I am disappointed that you haven't taken the opportunity to properly explain why you would boo @Billericay Dickie
@bigstemarra - OK... I can see how some people are still equating the taking of the knee with BLM - despite it not originating with them and e.g. Gareth Southgate overtly saying that he and thr players were not aligning themselves with BLM
Would you/people who want to boo the taking of the knee be able to get behind some other symbolic anti racism gesture made by players?
As I said in my post, I have no problem with 'Kick It Out'; quite the reverse. This is a politically neutral movement with none of the BLM baggage which many people, including myself, find very unpalatable. It would be great if the players could revert to supporting this organisation, but I get the feeling that given the 'culture war' vibe around at the moment, both sides are simply going to dig in and refuse to compromise, so the whole shitshow will continue.
I know that taking the knee originated with Kapaernick, but it was adopted by BLM wholesale after the George Floyd murder. BLM banners were then plastered all over EPL stadiums as players then decide to take the knee.
I know that some are trying to separate BLM from TTK, but they are inextricably, demonstrably linked for the above reasons. People can get upset at that, but it's simply a reflection of reality as people began taking the knee at football matches as part of the BLM movement. Trying to argue the two are not connected is a bit silly, really and certainly an insult to peoples' intelligence. Gaslighting on an industrial scale, maybe. Unless someone is either extremely gullible, or terminally stupid, then you are wasting your time trying to tell them not to believe what they see and hear based in objective reality. Please stop.
The timing, (with the GF murder), the banners and the fact that it was actually printed on the back of their shirts is kind of a big hint, don't you think?
Coming back to my point, though - we are surely in territory where we are beyond gestures. It is time for action; boycott social media sites until they do something about the problem, which they can easily do. Why are people letting them get away with it? Where is the anger with amoral twats who run Twitter, for instance? They enable this bullshit. Verified accounts would be a piece of piss for them to set up and would go a large way to stopping the torrent of racist shit from morons that now appears depressingly predictably after matches. Are we really prepared to see this just go on and on? At present, the answer appears to be yes, unfortunately.
Kneeling on a football pitch is not going to make one iota of difference to anything; it is the epitome of virtue signalling. The idea that a genuine racist will see it and somehow see the error of their ways in some Damascene conversion really is beyond laughable. Some people are just c**ts, no matter how much education they get and how much others attempt to appeal to their better nature. Boycotting social media sites until they exercise a duty of care and take some responsibility to see the perpetrators answer for their actions would actually have an effect if enough people did it. So why don't they?
Come on football, the ball is in your court....do you actually want to change things, or is it just more empty platitudes? Because that is where we are. Still. And nothing has changed, unsurprisingly.
I intend to boo if I see any players taking the knee at the Valley next season.
I believe that I am simply expressing my rights under the freedom of speech laws. But I am sure some other fans will call me a racist.
Therefore I will delay signing this petition until I see what the reaction is to my booing.
Why are you booing though? I've not heard anyone say why they were booing apart from some rubbish about Marxism. If you've not got a convincing reason for booing an anti-racist gesture, it's reasonable to assume that you are booing because you are against anti-racism.
Taking the knee is a political gesture that is uncalled for in English football.
Black life’s matter, White life’s matter, All life’s matter.
I go to football to watch the game, not for players to preach to me their political beliefs.
1) lives 2) the bolded bit has only ever been said by those of small mind or racists. 3) the players have said its nothing to do with politics and everything to do with getting a serious social (and football) issue a higher profile so it can be dealt with. You really think the players are reading Das Kapital pre game ffs. 4) I'd rather you didn't come to the valley or football at all tbh.
brb gonna create a twitter handle called CharltonLifePosters and post controversial shit so people will hate on this forum and call us all anarchist scum.
Guessing that thinly veiled dig was aimed at me... I didn't read the majority of the post I quoted. I don't agree with the BLM "decentralised" party, as you so cutely put it. It isn't decentralised and the people putting theirselves in the limelight are not very nice people trying to take it all in a very bad direction by raising tensions... but that is not what this thread is about, it doesn't mean I don't agree with the Black Lives Matter campaign, or the taking a knee, as I definitely do and anyone proven to be a racist should be banned from football.
The inference from the phrase Black Lives Matter is that black lives matter as much as white lives. People who say all lives matter in response to the phrase can be seen as denying there is an issue. That isn't anything to do with a political organisation that nobody involved in taking the knee clearly supports. It is a denial that there is an issue with racism when there clearly is. Even if things have improved, we are not there and until we are it is reasonable for people who are listened to to try to draw attention to the fact.
I intend to boo if I see any players taking the knee at the Valley next season.
I believe that I am simply expressing my rights under the freedom of speech laws. But I am sure some other fans will call me a racist.
Therefore I will delay signing this petition until I see what the reaction is to my booing.
I hope for your sake you are sitting nowhere near me . Idiot
Oh I am really afraid. Please explain. What do you intend to do when I start booing?
Why are you so proud of wanting to boo these players? It’s pathetic.
What would you say to one of our players if they came over to you after the booing and asked why you did it?
I imagine he would say it’s because it’s undeniably entwined (even if Southgate says it isn’t) with an organisation and underlying movement that he utterly opposes.
Ive heard many arguments from many people along the same vein and I find myself agreeing at times with both sides of the argument.
At the Scotland game I saw a group turn their back on the knee taking whilst holding an anti-racism banner. I know a very prominent, articulate, well educated Eng fan who’s the most anti taking the knee person I’ve ever heard and as anti racism as they come.
Excuse the pun, but it’s not a black and white issue and you can’t in my view accuse someone of being racist for their view on Taking the knee or BLM alone. He might be racist but his stance on that issue does not prove it either way in my opinion.
Absolutely not you can't accuse someone of racism for not agreeing with the gesture and they way its being done or the organisation/movement. Equally if someone doesn't agree with those things then simply stand silently for the 8 seconds the gesture lasts. If someone actively boo it then its fairly safe to assume they are a racist imo.
Why do people who choose to boo think it is wrong for others to assume they are racist? They choose to apply a reason for players taking the knee that runs counter to what the players who take the knee have said is the reason. Not once, but repeatedly! If we can't take their reason as the truth, who's reason should we take? The booers? I don't think so.
How many people think any of the England players or the manager are part of some ultra left political movement? Seriously, does anybody?
Comments
He hasn’t done or said anything racist, you’re assuming that his reason for booing stems from racism.
he shouldn’t have to deny it because you think he should
Why not just go and support Millwall though?
@bigstemarra - OK... I can see how some people are still equating the taking of the knee with BLM - despite it not originating with them and e.g. Gareth Southgate overtly saying that he and thr players were not aligning themselves with BLM
Would you/people who want to boo the taking of the knee be able to get behind some other symbolic anti racism gesture made by players?
If you don't agree with taking the knee just stay quiet and don't clap.
This is about a petition
It has bee made abundantly clear in recent weeks that it is not linked to the marxist blm movement / any anarchic agenda and that our players version is solely as a show of anti racist unity.
If you still dont acknowledge it as that or are uncomfortable it would be respectful to stay silent for the 4 seconds it takes rather than boo.
It's just common decency and requires nothing but courtesy to do so.
You're not being asked to applaud or join or condone a subtext of an anti capitalist agenda.
It is literally a well intentioned way for players to convey unity against racism that still affects many of our players with alarming frequency as demonstrated on Sunday.
But because of that it has been made emphatically clear it's not in any way linked to any political motive in recent months and it is clearly no more than a way for players to show solidarity against racism.
So assuming you don't have these problems, just accept their reasoning for it. You may think it has gone on too long or there may be better ways. That is a fair enough position, but it isn't a reason to boo. It is 10 seconds tops and doesn't affect anything about the game. Blink and you miss it. Clap them in solidarity with their message or do nothing. Don't boo them because you have not got the wit to understand why they are doing it despite all the unsubtle clues.
It would be a useless protest if it was about something the protesters have said it isn't about. When you protest, you do specify why or it becomes a meaningless act.
Why not give it a different name....something like 'Kick it Out' for instance
As I said in my post, I have no problem with 'Kick It Out'; quite the reverse. This is a politically neutral movement with none of the BLM baggage which many people, including myself, find very unpalatable. It would be great if the players could revert to supporting this organisation, but I get the feeling that given the 'culture war' vibe around at the moment, both sides are simply going to dig in and refuse to compromise, so the whole shitshow will continue.
I know that taking the knee originated with Kapaernick, but it was adopted by BLM wholesale after the George Floyd murder. BLM banners were then plastered all over EPL stadiums as players then decide to take the knee.
I know that some are trying to separate BLM from TTK, but they are inextricably, demonstrably linked for the above reasons. People can get upset at that, but it's simply a reflection of reality as people began taking the knee at football matches as part of the BLM movement. Trying to argue the two are not connected is a bit silly, really and certainly an insult to peoples' intelligence. Gaslighting on an industrial scale, maybe. Unless someone is either extremely gullible, or terminally stupid, then you are wasting your time trying to tell them not to believe what they see and hear based in objective reality. Please stop.
The timing, (with the GF murder), the banners and the fact that it was actually printed on the back of their shirts is kind of a big hint, don't you think?
Coming back to my point, though - we are surely in territory where we are beyond gestures. It is time for action; boycott social media sites until they do something about the problem, which they can easily do. Why are people letting them get away with it? Where is the anger with amoral twats who run Twitter, for instance? They enable this bullshit. Verified accounts would be a piece of piss for them to set up and would go a large way to stopping the torrent of racist shit from morons that now appears depressingly predictably after matches. Are we really prepared to see this just go on and on? At present, the answer appears to be yes, unfortunately.
Kneeling on a football pitch is not going to make one iota of difference to anything; it is the epitome of virtue signalling. The idea that a genuine racist will see it and somehow see the error of their ways in some Damascene conversion really is beyond laughable. Some people are just c**ts, no matter how much education they get and how much others attempt to appeal to their better nature. Boycotting social media sites until they exercise a duty of care and take some responsibility to see the perpetrators answer for their actions would actually have an effect if enough people did it. So why don't they?
Come on football, the ball is in your court....do you actually want to change things, or is it just more empty platitudes? Because that is where we are. Still. And nothing has changed, unsurprisingly.
2) the bolded bit has only ever been said by those of small mind or racists.
3) the players have said its nothing to do with politics and everything to do with getting a serious social (and football) issue a higher profile so it can be dealt with. You really think the players are reading Das Kapital pre game ffs.
4) I'd rather you didn't come to the valley or football at all tbh.
How many people think any of the England players or the manager are part of some ultra left political movement? Seriously, does anybody?