The majority of L1 and L2 clubs will never be anywhere near the Premier League and so why should they care which clubs have power. All they see is more money for them. Of course they will love it.
Whats important is the other premier league teams votes. I can’t see this getting support from them, turkeys voting for Christmas.
the whole big 6 but 9 get the vote...that’s irrelevant as they would only need 6 votes to pass anything.
This has ‘leaked’ for a reason, to get an idea of support levels and see what their rivals reactions are...
It’s their starting position as they prepare for negotiations.
Really? They should consider the following, then:
Older Charlton fans, who are still working to make ends meet, can remember the following in their fan lifetimes:
SIX current FAPL clubs playing in the old FOURTH division (which Charlton have never played in): Aston Villa, Bournemouth, Brighton, Burnley, Palace :-) Wolves. Liverpool, Man City and Man Utd coming to the Valley in the Second Division Leeds and Leicester visiting in the Third Division Man City in the 3rd Division. Ipswich and Nottingham Forest representing England with distinction in Europe. Charlton beating all the above named except Bournemouth in FAPL games.
They and Rick Parry and all the other grossly overpaid prats who think they are "marketing -led" should remember this
The "product" here is not Liverpool, or Man Utd. The supporter groups such as Spirit of Shankly understand that the product is the League.Form Liverpool to Accrington. And we are the core customers, not some teenager on a stream in Kuala Lumpa. And what it is selling to each and every one of us are Hope and Dreams. They want to take away our hope and destroy our dreams and when they do, they will, slowly but surely, destroy the entire game we know and love.
Not unanimous. While one of the reporters from BBC Sport tweeted this:
https://twitter.com/LauraScott__/status/1316079256741597184 "Near unanimous support for Project Big Picture during EFL meetings today, clubs say.
Jez Moxey (Burton Albion): "In L1, unanimous"
Nigel Travis (Leyton Orient): "In L2, it was probably 23 of 24 clubs"
Peter Ridsdale (Preston): "No dissenting voices" in Ch'ship re broad principles"
while Clive Nates from Lincoln was a bit more forthright on the matter:
https://twitter.com/cliven7/status/1316108473407602691 "That then is a blatant lie from Jez Moxey. Was he asleep when I expressed my grave concerns at the meeting over this diabolical power grab. I am vehemently against this deal in it's present form.
The acceptance of this deal without question by so many clubs is deeply concerning."
Tranmere's CEO tweeted out about it yesterday too. Far from unanimous!
The majority of L1 and L2 clubs will never be anywhere near the Premier League and so why should they care which clubs have power. All they see is more money for them. Of course they will love it.
Whats important is the other premier league teams votes. I can’t see this getting support from them, turkeys voting for Christmas.
the whole big 6 but 9 get the vote...that’s irrelevant as they would only need 6 votes to pass anything.
This has ‘leaked’ for a reason, to get an idea of support levels and see what their rivals reactions are...
It’s their starting position as they prepare for negotiations.
Really? They should consider the following, then:
Older Charlton fans, who are still working to make ends meet, can remember the following in their fan lifetimes:
FIVE current FAPL clubs playing in the old FOURTH division (which Charlton have never played in): Aston Villa, Bournemouth, Brighton, Burnley, Palace :-) Liverpool, Man City and Man Utd coming to the Valley in the Second Division Leeds and Leicester visiting in the Third Division Man City in the 3rd Division. Ipswich and Nottingham Forest representing England with distinction in Europe. Charlton beating all the above named except Bournemouth in FAPL games.
They and Rick Parry and all the other grossly overpaid prats who think they are "marketing -led" should remember this
The "product" here is not Liverpool, or Man Utd. The supporter groups such as Spirit of Shankly understand that the product is the League.Form Liverpool to Accrington. And we are the core customers, not some teenager on a stream in Kuala Lumpa. And what it is selling to each and every one of us are Hope and Dreams. They want to take away our hope and destroy our dreams and when they do, they will, slowly but surely, destroy the entire game we know and love.
Thye must be stopped.
Pretty certain Wolves played in the 4th division in the late 80's too
The majority of L1 and L2 clubs will never be anywhere near the Premier League and so why should they care which clubs have power. All they see is more money for them. Of course they will love it.
Whats important is the other premier league teams votes. I can’t see this getting support from them, turkeys voting for Christmas.
the whole big 6 but 9 get the vote...that’s irrelevant as they would only need 6 votes to pass anything.
This has ‘leaked’ for a reason, to get an idea of support levels and see what their rivals reactions are...
It’s their starting position as they prepare for negotiations.
Really? They should consider the following, then:
Older Charlton fans, who are still working to make ends meet, can remember the following in their fan lifetimes:
FIVE current FAPL clubs playing in the old FOURTH division (which Charlton have never played in): Aston Villa, Bournemouth, Brighton, Burnley, Palace :-) Liverpool, Man City and Man Utd coming to the Valley in the Second Division Leeds and Leicester visiting in the Third Division Man City in the 3rd Division. Ipswich and Nottingham Forest representing England with distinction in Europe. Charlton beating all the above named except Bournemouth in FAPL games.
They and Rick Parry and all the other grossly overpaid prats who think they are "marketing -led" should remember this
The "product" here is not Liverpool, or Man Utd. The supporter groups such as Spirit of Shankly understand that the product is the League.Form Liverpool to Accrington. And we are the core customers, not some teenager on a stream in Kuala Lumpa. And what it is selling to each and every one of us are Hope and Dreams. They want to take away our hope and destroy our dreams and when they do, they will, slowly but surely, destroy the entire game we know and love.
Thye must be stopped.
Did we ever beat Manchester United in the Premier League?
A Premier League club owner has told Sky Sports News only six top-flight teams are in favour of Project Big Picture proposals, ahead of a shareholder meeting on Wednesday.
All 20 Premier League clubs will be involved in a virtual meeting to discuss the proposals at 11am.
The majority of L1 and L2 clubs will never be anywhere near the Premier League and so why should they care which clubs have power. All they see is more money for them. Of course they will love it.
Whats important is the other premier league teams votes. I can’t see this getting support from them, turkeys voting for Christmas.
the whole big 6 but 9 get the vote...that’s irrelevant as they would only need 6 votes to pass anything.
This has ‘leaked’ for a reason, to get an idea of support levels and see what their rivals reactions are...
It’s their starting position as they prepare for negotiations.
Really? They should consider the following, then:
Older Charlton fans, who are still working to make ends meet, can remember the following in their fan lifetimes:
FIVE current FAPL clubs playing in the old FOURTH division (which Charlton have never played in): Aston Villa, Bournemouth, Brighton, Burnley, Palace :-) Liverpool, Man City and Man Utd coming to the Valley in the Second Division Leeds and Leicester visiting in the Third Division Man City in the 3rd Division. Ipswich and Nottingham Forest representing England with distinction in Europe. Charlton beating all the above named except Bournemouth in FAPL games.
They and Rick Parry and all the other grossly overpaid prats who think they are "marketing -led" should remember this
The "product" here is not Liverpool, or Man Utd. The supporter groups such as Spirit of Shankly understand that the product is the League.Form Liverpool to Accrington. And we are the core customers, not some teenager on a stream in Kuala Lumpa. And what it is selling to each and every one of us are Hope and Dreams. They want to take away our hope and destroy our dreams and when they do, they will, slowly but surely, destroy the entire game we know and love.
Thye must be stopped.
Did we ever beat Manchester United in the Premier League?
The majority of L1 and L2 clubs will never be anywhere near the Premier League and so why should they care which clubs have power. All they see is more money for them. Of course they will love it.
Whats important is the other premier league teams votes. I can’t see this getting support from them, turkeys voting for Christmas.
the whole big 6 but 9 get the vote...that’s irrelevant as they would only need 6 votes to pass anything.
This has ‘leaked’ for a reason, to get an idea of support levels and see what their rivals reactions are...
It’s their starting position as they prepare for negotiations.
Really? They should consider the following, then:
Older Charlton fans, who are still working to make ends meet, can remember the following in their fan lifetimes:
FIVE current FAPL clubs playing in the old FOURTH division (which Charlton have never played in): Aston Villa, Bournemouth, Brighton, Burnley, Palace :-) Liverpool, Man City and Man Utd coming to the Valley in the Second Division Leeds and Leicester visiting in the Third Division Man City in the 3rd Division. Ipswich and Nottingham Forest representing England with distinction in Europe. Charlton beating all the above named except Bournemouth in FAPL games.
They and Rick Parry and all the other grossly overpaid prats who think they are "marketing -led" should remember this
The "product" here is not Liverpool, or Man Utd. The supporter groups such as Spirit of Shankly understand that the product is the League.Form Liverpool to Accrington. And we are the core customers, not some teenager on a stream in Kuala Lumpa. And what it is selling to each and every one of us are Hope and Dreams. They want to take away our hope and destroy our dreams and when they do, they will, slowly but surely, destroy the entire game we know and love.
Thye must be stopped.
Did we ever beat Manchester United in the Premier League?
I think the 3-3 and a 0-0 were our best results against them in the PL.
The majority of L1 and L2 clubs will never be anywhere near the Premier League and so why should they care which clubs have power. All they see is more money for them. Of course they will love it.
Whats important is the other premier league teams votes. I can’t see this getting support from them, turkeys voting for Christmas.
the whole big 6 but 9 get the vote...that’s irrelevant as they would only need 6 votes to pass anything.
This has ‘leaked’ for a reason, to get an idea of support levels and see what their rivals reactions are...
It’s their starting position as they prepare for negotiations.
Really? They should consider the following, then:
Older Charlton fans, who are still working to make ends meet, can remember the following in their fan lifetimes:
FIVE current FAPL clubs playing in the old FOURTH division (which Charlton have never played in): Aston Villa, Bournemouth, Brighton, Burnley, Palace :-) Liverpool, Man City and Man Utd coming to the Valley in the Second Division Leeds and Leicester visiting in the Third Division Man City in the 3rd Division. Ipswich and Nottingham Forest representing England with distinction in Europe. Charlton beating all the above named except Bournemouth in FAPL games.
They and Rick Parry and all the other grossly overpaid prats who think they are "marketing -led" should remember this
The "product" here is not Liverpool, or Man Utd. The supporter groups such as Spirit of Shankly understand that the product is the League.Form Liverpool to Accrington. And we are the core customers, not some teenager on a stream in Kuala Lumpa. And what it is selling to each and every one of us are Hope and Dreams. They want to take away our hope and destroy our dreams and when they do, they will, slowly but surely, destroy the entire game we know and love.
Thye must be stopped.
Did we ever beat Manchester United in the Premier League?
OK it wasn't the "Premier League" when Sir Lennie was in charge, but it doesn't seem like long ago to about half of us on here. His record against them was very decent. W3 D2 L3.
The majority of L1 and L2 clubs will never be anywhere near the Premier League and so why should they care which clubs have power. All they see is more money for them. Of course they will love it.
Whats important is the other premier league teams votes. I can’t see this getting support from them, turkeys voting for Christmas.
the whole big 6 but 9 get the vote...that’s irrelevant as they would only need 6 votes to pass anything.
This has ‘leaked’ for a reason, to get an idea of support levels and see what their rivals reactions are...
It’s their starting position as they prepare for negotiations.
Really? They should consider the following, then:
Older Charlton fans, who are still working to make ends meet, can remember the following in their fan lifetimes:
FIVE current FAPL clubs playing in the old FOURTH division (which Charlton have never played in): Aston Villa, Bournemouth, Brighton, Burnley, Palace :-) Liverpool, Man City and Man Utd coming to the Valley in the Second Division Leeds and Leicester visiting in the Third Division Man City in the 3rd Division. Ipswich and Nottingham Forest representing England with distinction in Europe. Charlton beating all the above named except Bournemouth in FAPL games.
They and Rick Parry and all the other grossly overpaid prats who think they are "marketing -led" should remember this
The "product" here is not Liverpool, or Man Utd. The supporter groups such as Spirit of Shankly understand that the product is the League.Form Liverpool to Accrington. And we are the core customers, not some teenager on a stream in Kuala Lumpa. And what it is selling to each and every one of us are Hope and Dreams. They want to take away our hope and destroy our dreams and when they do, they will, slowly but surely, destroy the entire game we know and love.
Thye must be stopped.
Pretty certain Wolves played in the 4th division in the late 80's too
Regardless of your thoughts on the current proposal, which as others have pointed out, is the start of the negotiations not the end.
Football, as a whole, in this country needs to have a long hard look at its self. Including fans.
I disagree that Manchester United V Liverpool isn't the product but agree that "hopes and dreams" is also a product. But they don't have to be mutually exclusive. Neither are they comparable.
What is completely out of line for, probably, 86 of the 92 clubs is how much THEY spend, to how much revenue THEY generate. To me, that sentence is the root of all English footballs problems. Far more than the "greed" of the few.
Even in the land of the giants Manchester United's revenue streams far out way the rest of the league. They didn't become a multinational cash machine by mistake. Also its not just down to Sky and the Premier league else everyone else would have done it.
Since abolishing the maximum wage, which was about 30 years before the start of the premier league, which was about 30 years ago. Liverpool and Manchester United have won more than half of the league titles, despite both going about 30 years each without winning one. It's not a recent sea change. In fact, compared to previous decades the 2010s through up a varied amount of league winners.
Shouldn't their employees be paid to match the economic value they provide their employer? Isnt that how a labour market works?
Should the economic might of a few clubs subsidise the wages of players that produce no economic value? Which is THE problem.
The EFL imposed a wage cap, to try and correct this, although it was badly thought out and executed. But a lot of people are complaining that you can't expect a half decent 3rd divison player to sign, during a global pandemic and the worst financial down turn in living memory for over £100k a year! That's bonkers, when you think about it.
The people moaning about the wage cap the most? Funnily enough it's fans of Charlton, Sunderland, Portsmouth and Ipswich who have, collectively seen their clubs loose about half a BILLION over the last 15 years.
Why should a Charlton be able to offer a Lyle Taylor £30k a week because 100s of millions of people want to pay to watch Liverpool v Manchester United? Because that's what would happen if more money trickled down. The EFL clubs are like dozens of crack addicks expecting someone else to pay for their next fix. Until you break that addiction you can't solve the problem.
I'm afraid that I have to disagree with you, and "fundamentally". That's an overused, often hyperbolic word of course but in this case appropriate.
I disagree that Manchester United V Liverpool isn't the product
Really? If so, then they can just play each other every week instead of competing in the league. Let's see how successful that product is.
The fundamental issue is that Man United's revenue far outstrips everyone else mainly because since 1992 it has been able to keep far more of the revenue from TV money that should have been possible. It is not "their" money. The absolute insanity of the decision to allow the FAPL to exist as a separate entity keeping and deciding on distribution of the TV money, is what drove their subsequent commercial success. They engineered this shoddy deal only one year after the period when they met Charlton in eight league games and won only three (per my post above). They were, in short, not that good, when they and the others locked in that revenue for themselves. Everything about today's situation, all the points you make, stem from that fundamental decision.
I do not of course pretend that undoing this historic catastrophe would be striaghtforward. But that should not mean we ignore it. You can't fix any complex problem if you do not recognise the roots of it.
I'm afraid that I have to disagree with you, and "fundamentally". That's an overused, often hyperbolic word of course but in this case appropriate.
I disagree that Manchester United V Liverpool isn't the product
Really? If so, then they can just play each other every week instead of competing in the league. Let's see how successful that product is.
The fundamental issue is that Man United's revenue far outstrips everyone else mainly because since 1992 it has been able to keep far more of the revenue from TV money that should have been possible. It is not "their" money. The absolute insanity of the decision to allow the FAPL to exist as a separate entity keeping and deciding on distribution of the TV money, is what drove their subsequent commercial success. They engineered this shoddy deal only one year after the period when they met Charlton in eight league games and won only three (per my post above). They were, in short, not that good, when they and the others locked in that revenue for themselves. Everything about today's situation, all the points you make, stem from that fundamental decision.
I do not of course pretend that undoing this historic catastrophe would be striaghtforward. But that should not mean we ignore it. You can't fix any complex problem if you do not recognise the roots of it.
Manchester United might not have been very good in the 1980s but they were still regularly paying million pound transfer fees and top dollar wages. Manchester United have made more of the opportunity, they and others engineered, than anyone else, who had the same advantages. That was the point I was making.
If the premier league moved to a completely PPV platform how much revenue would Crystal Palace v Burnley generate compared to Manchester United V Liverpool? The Premier League isn't the product any more. And English football fans aren't the audience. The big six could toddle off and find 4 others to join them, play each other 4 times a year and keep ALL the money.
What benifit is there to clubs lower down the piramid if it all goes on players wages, because suddenly we have 3rd disivion players on a million quid a year (we actually have had very recently but it's not the norm)?
If ALL clubs paid wages reflective of the revenue they generate, and didn't take hand outs to get by we wouldn't have half the problems we do now.
There is a difference between understanding why and how it happened and being able to undo it. How do you wrestle control away from 3 American billionaires, a Russian oligarch and an Arab petrol state?
The majority of L1 and L2 clubs will never be anywhere near the Premier League and so why should they care which clubs have power. All they see is more money for them. Of course they will love it.
Whats important is the other premier league teams votes. I can’t see this getting support from them, turkeys voting for Christmas.
the whole big 6 but 9 get the vote...that’s irrelevant as they would only need 6 votes to pass anything.
This has ‘leaked’ for a reason, to get an idea of support levels and see what their rivals reactions are...
It’s their starting position as they prepare for negotiations.
Really? They should consider the following, then:
Older Charlton fans, who are still working to make ends meet, can remember the following in their fan lifetimes:
FIVE current FAPL clubs playing in the old FOURTH division (which Charlton have never played in): Aston Villa, Bournemouth, Brighton, Burnley, Palace :-) Liverpool, Man City and Man Utd coming to the Valley in the Second Division Leeds and Leicester visiting in the Third Division Man City in the 3rd Division. Ipswich and Nottingham Forest representing England with distinction in Europe. Charlton beating all the above named except Bournemouth in FAPL games.
They and Rick Parry and all the other grossly overpaid prats who think they are "marketing -led" should remember this
The "product" here is not Liverpool, or Man Utd. The supporter groups such as Spirit of Shankly understand that the product is the League.Form Liverpool to Accrington. And we are the core customers, not some teenager on a stream in Kuala Lumpa. And what it is selling to each and every one of us are Hope and Dreams. They want to take away our hope and destroy our dreams and when they do, they will, slowly but surely, destroy the entire game we know and love.
Thye must be stopped.
Pretty certain Wolves played in the 4th division in the late 80's too
They certainly did. They smashed up Scarborough’s Seamer Road ground on the first day of the season, marring the Seadogs’ first ever league game. Fifty six arrests and fans falling through the roof of the stands. A dark day of wrongness.
The majority of L1 and L2 clubs will never be anywhere near the Premier League and so why should they care which clubs have power. All they see is more money for them. Of course they will love it.
Whats important is the other premier league teams votes. I can’t see this getting support from them, turkeys voting for Christmas.
the whole big 6 but 9 get the vote...that’s irrelevant as they would only need 6 votes to pass anything.
This has ‘leaked’ for a reason, to get an idea of support levels and see what their rivals reactions are...
It’s their starting position as they prepare for negotiations.
Really? They should consider the following, then:
Older Charlton fans, who are still working to make ends meet, can remember the following in their fan lifetimes:
FIVE current FAPL clubs playing in the old FOURTH division (which Charlton have never played in): Aston Villa, Bournemouth, Brighton, Burnley, Palace :-) Liverpool, Man City and Man Utd coming to the Valley in the Second Division Leeds and Leicester visiting in the Third Division Man City in the 3rd Division. Ipswich and Nottingham Forest representing England with distinction in Europe. Charlton beating all the above named except Bournemouth in FAPL games.
They and Rick Parry and all the other grossly overpaid prats who think they are "marketing -led" should remember this
The "product" here is not Liverpool, or Man Utd. The supporter groups such as Spirit of Shankly understand that the product is the League.Form Liverpool to Accrington. And we are the core customers, not some teenager on a stream in Kuala Lumpa. And what it is selling to each and every one of us are Hope and Dreams. They want to take away our hope and destroy our dreams and when they do, they will, slowly but surely, destroy the entire game we know and love.
Thye must be stopped.
Pretty certain Wolves played in the 4th division in the late 80's too
They certainly did. They smashed up Scarborough’s Seamer Road ground on the first day of the season, marring the Seadogs’ first ever league game. Fifty six arrests and fans falling through the roof of the stands. A dark day of wrongness.
Your last sentence is exactly per my last point. Undoing it will be difficult.
Otherwise; again I stress, it is not for the FAPL clubs themselves to decide up how PPV money is shared out. Whether it is Sky, Amazon or streaming, the money belongs to the 92, not the 20 or the 6, and should be shared out by a body which has the whole game as its remit. This is how it is done in Germany.
One of the reasons for the financial recklessness of EFL clubs is the lure of FAPL status because of the ridiculous gap in the TV money. German Bundesliga clubs do not go mad trying to get to the top tier, and so administration as a consequence of relegation is a completely unknown thing. But even if the money would be more evenly shared out, it needs a tough regulator to ensure that individual clubs don't spend beyond their means or indulge in financial cheating by selling their stadia to themselves. Of course in Germany it helps that a 51% share of nearly all clubs is held by the members (i.e the fans). Yes, I know, RB Leipzig, but they are universally despised by everyone else and that is unlikely to happen again.
So if the EFL clubs got an instant £250 million payment and a guarantee of 25% of TV revenues to share between them, how many of us seriously think this would lead to football clubs in general - but particularly in the lower leagues - being run on a more sustainable basis, with less fear of going out of existence? Maybe even a reduction in ticket prices for the paying fans?
Anyone?
Stop laughing at the back there, it's a serious question!
So if the EFL clubs got an instant £250 million payment and a guarantee of 25% of TV revenues to share between them, how many of us seriously think this would lead to football clubs in general - but particularly in the lower leagues - being run on a more sustainable basis, with less fear of going out of existence? Maybe even a reduction in ticket prices for the paying fans?
Anyone?
Stop laughing at the back there, it's a serious question!
if there were some good in this its at the barrel of a gun, how decent of them.. without reading all posts (soz) what's the uptick in income for championship, league 1 and 2 please anyone?
Don't agree with the relegated club playoff, nor the 'security council' distortion of democracy, some major principles at stake there, and the 92-90, not good for them, what a shame they couldnt come up with something decent - we're all in this together eh
Your last sentence is exactly per my last point. Undoing it will be difficult.
Otherwise; again I stress, it is not for the FAPL clubs themselves to decide up how PPV money is shared out. Whether it is Sky, Amazon or streaming, the money belongs to the 92, not the 20 or the 6, and should be shared out by a body which has the whole game as its remit. This is how it is done in Germany.
One of the reasons for the financial recklessness of EFL clubs is the lure of FAPL status because of the ridiculous gap in the TV money. German Bundesliga clubs do not go mad trying to get to the top tier, and so administration as a consequence of relegation is a completely unknown thing. But even if the money would be more evenly shared out, it needs a tough regulator to ensure that individual clubs don't spend beyond their means or indulge in financial cheating by selling their stadia to themselves. Of course in Germany it helps that a 51% share of nearly all clubs is held by the members (i.e the fans). Yes, I know, RB Leipzig, but they are universally despised by everyone else and that is unlikely to happen again.
It's also a system in Germany, that since the premier league started and all of English footballs "problems" that come with it, that has produced B. Munich winning the league 18 times, come 2nd 6 times and a lowley 3rd twice. Only 5 different teams have won it, compared to 7 here.
Without doing a deep dive I assume there are also no German 3rd division sides paying £1 million a year wages or 7 figure transfer fees?
As @off_it has said if the money would be used to create a more sustainable product in the leagues I would be supportive but the other 86 clubs need to put their own houses in order first.
Despite yours, and others scepticism, I honestly believe a 10 team league of the "big six" plus (for example) Rangers, Celtic, Ajax and PSV would quickly attract interest from France Spain and Italy and blow the rump of the premier league out of the water.
The Premier league as a domestic product would probably be better, on almost every metric, but it wouldn't generate anywhere near the revenue it does now.
So Rick Parry and the EFL have agreed to accept a 250 million pound advance on future monies in return for letting the big six have all the power but what happens 2,3,4, years down the line and the big six decide they want to have it all to themselves and sod the rest of you
Or am I just cynical for believing that might happen
Another way of looking at this is the top six clubs have realised that English football is viewed with envy around the world because of the depth and number of professional clubs.
This can only be preserved by diverting money to the lower clubs and encouraging people to go and see their local team on Saturday and watch the big games on TV on Sunday. Doing this will ensure even more revenue for everybody to share.
But there are so many organisations involved that nothing sensible can ever get agreed. The whole thing is a total mess and everyone including Liverpool and Man United will lose out when professional English football reverts to a few big teams playing each other every Sunday.
You just have to trust them to do the right thing1 I don't think they see the EFL as a competitor. But they do wish the other premier league clubs would stop voting for anything which preserves their position even if it puts other clubs and leagues out of business.
We desperately need to return to single league structure in this country which is run for the benefit of all the clubs within it.
interesting to note that this 25% of TV revenue probably costs them little if anything, two less PL clubs and no more parachute payments will go a long way towards it for sure.
NEW: Premier League clubs reject Project Big Picture
- clubs agree prompt strategy review involving all 20 clubs not just 2
- new bail-out offer for EFL agreed, possibly only for League One and League Two clubs
- full story:
NEW: Premier League clubs reject Project Big Picture
- clubs agree prompt strategy review involving all 20 clubs not just 2
- new bail-out offer for EFL agreed, possibly only for League One and League Two clubs
- full story:
NEW: Premier League clubs reject Project Big Picture
- clubs agree prompt strategy review involving all 20 clubs not just 2
- new bail-out offer for EFL agreed, possibly only for League One and League Two clubs
- full story:
As expected - they have called the big 2's (6) bluff. The Mancs and bin-dippers won't be happy! Cue the threat of a breakaway and Euro Super League.
They have asked for tuppence, now they will take a penny.
The EFL will get some money (but a lot less than the headline figures) and some rules will be changed, all to favour the big clubs of course, and things will carry on.
NEW: Premier League clubs reject Project Big Picture
- clubs agree prompt strategy review involving all 20 clubs not just 2
- new bail-out offer for EFL agreed, possibly only for League One and League Two clubs
- full story:
NEW: Premier League clubs reject Project Big Picture
- clubs agree prompt strategy review involving all 20 clubs not just 2
- new bail-out offer for EFL agreed, possibly only for League One and League Two clubs
- full story:
Comments
Older Charlton fans, who are still working to make ends meet, can remember the following in their fan lifetimes:
SIX current FAPL clubs playing in the old FOURTH division (which Charlton have never played in): Aston Villa, Bournemouth, Brighton, Burnley, Palace :-) Wolves.
Liverpool, Man City and Man Utd coming to the Valley in the Second Division
Leeds and Leicester visiting in the Third Division
Man City in the 3rd Division.
Ipswich and Nottingham Forest representing England with distinction in Europe.
Charlton beating all the above named except Bournemouth in FAPL games.
They and Rick Parry and all the other grossly overpaid prats who think they are "marketing -led" should remember this
The "product" here is not Liverpool, or Man Utd. The supporter groups such as Spirit of Shankly understand that the product is the League.Form Liverpool to Accrington. And we are the core customers, not some teenager on a stream in Kuala Lumpa. And what it is selling to each and every one of us are Hope and Dreams. They want to take away our hope and destroy our dreams and when they do, they will, slowly but surely, destroy the entire game we know and love.
Thye must be stopped.
Pretty certain Wolves played in the 4th division in the late 80's too
A Premier League club owner has told Sky Sports News only six top-flight teams are in favour of Project Big Picture proposals, ahead of a shareholder meeting on Wednesday.
All 20 Premier League clubs will be involved in a virtual meeting to discuss the proposals at 11am.
I wonder which six they would be...
Football, as a whole, in this country needs to have a long hard look at its self. Including fans.
I disagree that Manchester United V Liverpool isn't the product but agree that "hopes and dreams" is also a product. But they don't have to be mutually exclusive. Neither are they comparable.
What is completely out of line for, probably, 86 of the 92 clubs is how much THEY spend, to how much revenue THEY generate. To me, that sentence is the root of all English footballs problems. Far more than the "greed" of the few.
Even in the land of the giants Manchester United's revenue streams far out way the rest of the league. They didn't become a multinational cash machine by mistake. Also its not just down to Sky and the Premier league else everyone else would have done it.
Since abolishing the maximum wage, which was about 30 years before the start of the premier league, which was about 30 years ago. Liverpool and Manchester United have won more than half of the league titles, despite both going about 30 years each without winning one. It's not a recent sea change. In fact, compared to previous decades the 2010s through up a varied amount of league winners.
Shouldn't their employees be paid to match the economic value they provide their employer? Isnt that how a labour market works?
Should the economic might of a few clubs subsidise the wages of players that produce no economic value? Which is THE problem.
The EFL imposed a wage cap, to try and correct this, although it was badly thought out and executed. But a lot of people are complaining that you can't expect a half decent 3rd divison player to sign, during a global pandemic and the worst financial down turn in living memory for over £100k a year! That's bonkers, when you think about it.
The people moaning about the wage cap the most? Funnily enough it's fans of Charlton, Sunderland, Portsmouth and Ipswich who have, collectively seen their clubs loose about half a BILLION over the last 15 years.
Why should a Charlton be able to offer a Lyle Taylor £30k a week because 100s of millions of people want to pay to watch Liverpool v Manchester United? Because that's what would happen if more money trickled down. The EFL clubs are like dozens of crack addicks expecting someone else to pay for their next fix. Until you break that addiction you can't solve the problem.
I'm afraid that I have to disagree with you, and "fundamentally". That's an overused, often hyperbolic word of course but in this case appropriate.
I disagree that Manchester United V Liverpool isn't the product
Really? If so, then they can just play each other every week instead of competing in the league. Let's see how successful that product is.
The fundamental issue is that Man United's revenue far outstrips everyone else mainly because since 1992 it has been able to keep far more of the revenue from TV money that should have been possible. It is not "their" money. The absolute insanity of the decision to allow the FAPL to exist as a separate entity keeping and deciding on distribution of the TV money, is what drove their subsequent commercial success. They engineered this shoddy deal only one year after the period when they met Charlton in eight league games and won only three (per my post above). They were, in short, not that good, when they and the others locked in that revenue for themselves. Everything about today's situation, all the points you make, stem from that fundamental decision.
I do not of course pretend that undoing this historic catastrophe would be striaghtforward. But that should not mean we ignore it. You can't fix any complex problem if you do not recognise the roots of it.
If the premier league moved to a completely PPV platform how much revenue would Crystal Palace v Burnley generate compared to Manchester United V Liverpool? The Premier League isn't the product any more. And English football fans aren't the audience. The big six could toddle off and find 4 others to join them, play each other 4 times a year and keep ALL the money.
What benifit is there to clubs lower down the piramid if it all goes on players wages, because suddenly we have 3rd disivion players on a million quid a year (we actually have had very recently but it's not the norm)?
If ALL clubs paid wages reflective of the revenue they generate, and didn't take hand outs to get by we wouldn't have half the problems we do now.
There is a difference between understanding why and how it happened and being able to undo it. How do you wrestle control away from 3 American billionaires, a Russian oligarch and an Arab petrol state?
I am not saying I think its right BTW.
They certainly did. They smashed up Scarborough’s Seamer Road ground on the first day of the season, marring the Seadogs’ first ever league game. Fifty six arrests and fans falling through the roof of the stands. A dark day of wrongness.
https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/wolverhampton/2017/08/16/how-football-prank-still-haunts-me-to-this-day/
Your last sentence is exactly per my last point. Undoing it will be difficult.
Otherwise; again I stress, it is not for the FAPL clubs themselves to decide up how PPV money is shared out. Whether it is Sky, Amazon or streaming, the money belongs to the 92, not the 20 or the 6, and should be shared out by a body which has the whole game as its remit. This is how it is done in Germany.
One of the reasons for the financial recklessness of EFL clubs is the lure of FAPL status because of the ridiculous gap in the TV money. German Bundesliga clubs do not go mad trying to get to the top tier, and so administration as a consequence of relegation is a completely unknown thing. But even if the money would be more evenly shared out, it needs a tough regulator to ensure that individual clubs don't spend beyond their means or indulge in financial cheating by selling their stadia to themselves. Of course in Germany it helps that a 51% share of nearly all clubs is held by the members (i.e the fans). Yes, I know, RB Leipzig, but they are universally despised by everyone else and that is unlikely to happen again.
Anyone?
Stop laughing at the back there, it's a serious question!
Don't agree with the relegated club playoff, nor the 'security council' distortion of democracy, some major principles at stake there, and the 92-90, not good for them, what a shame they couldnt come up with something decent - we're all in this together eh
Without doing a deep dive I assume there are also no German 3rd division sides paying £1 million a year wages or 7 figure transfer fees?
As @off_it has said if the money would be used to create a more sustainable product in the leagues I would be supportive but the other 86 clubs need to put their own houses in order first.
Despite yours, and others scepticism, I honestly believe a 10 team league of the "big six" plus (for example) Rangers, Celtic, Ajax and PSV would quickly attract interest from France Spain and Italy and blow the rump of the premier league out of the water.
The Premier league as a domestic product would probably be better, on almost every metric, but it wouldn't generate anywhere near the revenue it does now.
Or am I just cynical for believing that might happen
This can only be preserved by diverting money to the lower clubs and encouraging people to go and see their local team on Saturday and watch the big games on TV on Sunday. Doing this will ensure even more revenue for everybody to share.
But there are so many organisations involved that nothing sensible can ever get agreed. The whole thing is a total mess and everyone including Liverpool and Man United will lose out when professional English football reverts to a few big teams playing each other every Sunday.
You just have to trust them to do the right thing1 I don't think they see the EFL as a competitor. But they do wish the other premier league clubs would stop voting for anything which preserves their position even if it puts other clubs and leagues out of business.
We desperately need to return to single league structure in this country which is run for the benefit of all the clubs within it.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/premier-league-clubs-reject-project-big-picture-at-emergency-meeting-dp8jwq69g
The Mancs and bin-dippers won't be happy!
Cue the threat of a breakaway and Euro Super League.
The EFL will get some money (but a lot less than the headline figures) and some rules will be changed, all to favour the big clubs of course, and things will carry on.
https://news.sky.com/story/top-premier-league-clubs-threaten-to-break-away-unless-radical-changes-to-english-football-are-backed-12103649?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
Ta ta
Leave English football to proper football clubs...