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Explosion in Beirut

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  • The Marshall Plan?
    $15 billion?

    Without being insensitive are there not quite a lot of extremes floating about. 

    The Governor of the city said it was like Hiroshima. 

    Maybe some perspective is in order? 
  • edited August 2020
    I'm talking about relative to the city itself.  

    But even for Beirut alone, immediate estimates are in the $3b range.  If a wider vision, like that of the Marshall Plan, for Lebanese recovery was sought, it could easily rise much further.

    In Ireland, they are talking of expenditure in the region of €8b to recover from Covid-19, I'd guess that yesterday's explosion is at least as damaging for Lebanon as the virus is for Ireland.

    Edit.  Apologies, due to fat finger syndrome, I'd typed m, for million, rather than b for billion.
  • edited August 2020
    So very far removed from any relationship with the Marshall Plan.

    At least 58,000 died in Hamburg blitz. With every respect for their disaster you are way off beam with your comparisons. 
  • MrWalker said:
    So very far removed from any relationship with the Marshall Plan.

    At least 58,000 died in Hamburg blitz. With every respect for their disaster you are way off beam with your comparisons. 
    How so "very far removed from any relationship with the Marshall Plan"?

    The purpose of the Marshall Plan was not just to rebuild ruined cities, but also to help economic recovery, which is precisely what Beirut and Lebanon need.  I'm in favour of an approach that would take a wider view.  In today's money, the $12b would be worth $130b.

    I don't believe that comparison with the cityscapes of Coventry or Hamburg in 1945 are all that off beam.  I was deliberately not attempting to compare the yesterday's explosion with bombing raids of 1940 or 1943, when, as you say, the firestorm created by Allied bombing killed tens of thousands.  I wished to avoid comparisons to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, because the extent of utter devastation in Beirut is more limited to the port area itself.
  • PaddyP17 said:
    PaddyP17 said:
    “Something bad has happened, must have been the Jews”.

    just goes to show how much social media has plunged into casual anti semitism. Only have to look at the house of commoners to see that eventually unchecked and unmoderated condoning and denial of anti semitism seeps into the rest of the board. 
    You might be being anti-Semitic now, equating Israel to "the Jews". Certainly by the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism that you have cited previously:

    https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

    "Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity."

    I appreciate you may well have decided not to engage with my question over on the AS thread, but I am still really confused by your position, particularly re Zionism/anti-Zionism et al. And if you're viewing me as a raging anti-Semite as a result, then there's very little I can do to change your perception, and me saying "I'm about as far from anti-Semitic and discriminatory as can be" won't resonate with you. But there we have it.
    “I’m not anti Semitic, but please repeatedly lay out what is and isnt anti Semitic to me so I can sea lion rather than actually do my own digging”. No thanks, educate yourself. 

    calling some one anti Semitic for complaining about anti semitism is literally gaslighting. 
    I contextualised my questions over in the House of Commoners, and I don't know how much more I can contextualise them. I do my own research and I would say I'm pretty well read. My sister in law and her family are Jewish. I have these discussions on a regular basis, and I really should not have stooped to your level where you make bad faith, misframed, and straw man arguments.

    What I am asking for is your definition of these terms, as they do not appear to be consistent with any scholarship or academia or journalism I have engaged with, and your continued refusal to answer the question is puzzling. I am not sea-lioning. I offer up what I believe are the most widely-accepted definitions of some terms (i.e. that Zionism is contingent on a return to Eretz Israel, rather than solely a right to self-determination), and apparently I'm not educating myself by researching my statements? I can give you sources and stuff, if you like.

    I'll ask the question a bit differently. And if this is sea-lioning then so be it. Do you believe that Zionism is the support of the Jewish peoples' right to self-determination? Or do you believe it is the right to self-determination but in Eretz Israel? And do you believe anti-Zionism is the opposition to the Jewish peoples' right to self-determination, or do you believe that anti-Zionism is the opposition to Jewish peoples' right to land (and the mechanisms by which is is being/has been acquired) in Eretz Israel?

    You were the first person to mention "the Jews" on this thread. Are you now saying that Israel is in fact a code word for "the Jews"? If so, fine. That's your prerogative, though I suspect many people would disagree.

    I was being a dickhead by saying you're being anti-Semitic, yes. And I apologise, because you are not anti-Semitic. But it was by the same (absence of) logic you use, incessantly, on this forum, hence my provocation.

    I wouldn't bother apologising mate.  the same two wankers accused me of anti-semitism and implied I was a nazi for criticisms of the Israeli state about a year ago.  Move to the politics page.  
  • Over six years ago the headlines were clear

    Crew kept hostages on a floating bomb – m/v Rhosus, Beirut


    https://www.fleetmon.com/maritime-news/2014/4194/crew-kept-hostages-floating-bomb-mv-rhosus-beirut/
  • Rumour that the entire government of Lebanon has resigned
  • Sponsored links:


  • Chizz said:
    Rumour that the entire government of Lebanon has re-signed
    That's them off the transfer market then
  • check out Halifax Nova Scotia circa 1917, a similar disaster
  • Chizz said:
    Rumour that the entire government of Lebanon has resigned
    The huge difficulty is achieving any sort of change without framing a new constitution.  The current one, drafted by the French, is what enshrines the sectarian/confessional carve up between Maronite, Sunni and Shia (the President always being Christian, the Prime Minister Sunni, etc.) - their desire to retain these roles being one of the many reasons why Lebanon has not carried out censuses in recent decades, as the balance or power would inevitably be changed (with more religious affiliations than before, and what are believed to be rising Shia numbers).
  • Who would have thought religion could cause so much grief....
  • Four weeks on from this event.

    This was horrific, like something out of a film and I feel like the story has disappeared from the media.

    Are we any closer to understanding wtf happened here? 
  • Four weeks on from this event.

    This was horrific, like something out of a film and I feel like the story has disappeared from the media.

    Are we any closer to understanding wtf happened here? 
    Some very flammable materials were being housed in a warehouse & they caught light. 


  • Four weeks on from this event.

    This was horrific, like something out of a film and I feel like the story has disappeared from the media.

    Are we any closer to understanding wtf happened here? 
    It was *****  Trump / Black Lives Matter / Hamas / Israel / Isis / Putin / Dominic Cummings / Illuminati / Southall and Elliott that did it.

    ***** Please delete to suit agenda
  • MrOneLung said:
    Four weeks on from this event.

    This was horrific, like something out of a film and I feel like the story has disappeared from the media.

    Are we any closer to understanding wtf happened here? 
    It was Southall that did it.
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  • Four weeks on from this event.

    This was horrific, like something out of a film and I feel like the story has disappeared from the media.

    Are we any closer to understanding wtf happened here? 
    Work near a warehouse caused a fire, which then ignited ammonium nitrate which was being stored incorrectly.

    A Cypriot shipowner and a Russian shipowner have been implicated in ownership of the ship that carried the cargo when it was seized and subsequently abandoned in 2013.

    Around 200 dead, 6000 injured and thousands homeless.

    $4.6 billion in damages, including economic losses due to closure of the port.

    More ammonium nitrate was found at the port last week and is being removed.

    A large part of the port is now back in operation and aid supplies have been delivered. 
  • Further reading if you're interested. I work in marine insurance so it's always in 'my' news unfortunately. 

    Information on the ship that carried the cargo to Beirut Port: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/07/world/middleeast/lebanon-explosion-ship.html

    Cypriot shipowner implicated: https://splash247.com/cypriot-shipping-entrepreneur-fights-to-clear-his-name-from-beirut-port-blast/

    Assessment of damages: https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/world-bank-billions-in-damages-from-port-of-beirut-explosion

    The rowing club with no boats: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54013623
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