Wishing Charlton good luck with this. Two things, Wednesday were lucky that the independent panel set the punishment at only -12 points, also that the points are carried over to next season. If you read the full story, they committed fraud and deception. The sale of their stadium, to themselves, was back dated by over a year, the price was inflated and no money was ever transferred by the sale. The owner, created new companies and moved the sale around, this was done over one year after the FFP had shown them to have overspent. They will get hit next season with a further charge.
7 clubs backing us. Does this mean 16 don't back us?
More likely 16 yet to respond.
You can probably rule out Leeds and West brom as they won't care. Safe to say Derby won't be piping up either. And Wednesday themselves already makes 4.
Even if they were sympathetic I assume that those currently with reps on the 9 person EFL board (Bristol City, Reading and yes, Derby) might find it difficult if their clubs openly supported Charlton. All you can hope is that they do so behind the scenes at the EFL but hardly likely the Derby representative will.
When the P&S charges were first put they were put also against named individuals (D Chansiri: owner; John Redgate: Financial Director and Katrien Meire: CEO) in addition to the club.
In March 2020 the IDC dropped the charges against these individuals and presumably it is now possible to read the findings/reasons why the charges were dropped. Can you please supply me with the minutes or transcripts which offer the reasons - which must of course be transparent and available for view.
Secondly, now that the 'Club' has been found guilty how does that square with the dropped charges against Mr Chansiri and Mr Redgate?
It was not the 'club' which entered the sale of the ground into the wrong accounting year but a human being .......................(Ms Meire only joined in 2018)
Finally, we are still not hearing are we about the reason why the IDC chose to apply the points penalty to Sheffield Weds next season rather than this.
You have explained that you need to see those reasons before the EFL can decide whether or not to appeal the IDC decision.
It is now 5 days since the decision was announced on the eve of the FA Cup Final - might we expect too see the IDC reasons to be published on Saturday 22nd August (the day before the European Champions League final) or might we expect to see them a little sooner?
proper old school ground Brammell Lane and that's one of my favourite football songs.
Bramall Lane has been developed over the years but still remains as a real traditional football stadium. There are plans in place to extend the kop and south stand, should take the capacity up to near the 38 - 40k mark. I went to the Valley twice to see United, once in the Premiership season, it has a feel like Bramall Lane, thoroughly enjoyed the visits.
I will be watching out to see what the EFL do, it is another crazy decision. Not sure why the punishment was not imposed straight away. Genuinely hope it comes good for Charlton and other championship clubs get behind your club.
Sheffield Wednesday have the right to appeal and that could easily go into October - if they had been relegated by applying the points deduction this season then a successful appeal would have thrown the fixture list into utter confusion. If they appeal and win then the 12 points can be rescinded without it impacting on the fixtures. The decision by the disciplinary panel was not based on natural justice but on pragmatism.
Sheffield Wednesday have the right to appeal and that could easily go into October - if they had been relegated by applying the points deduction this season then a successful appeal would have thrown the fixture list into utter confusion. If they appeal and win then the 12 points can be rescinded without it impacting on the fixtures. The decision by the disciplinary panel was not based on natural justice but on pragmatism.
Then they should have had the disciplinary hearing earlier.....or been quicker getting the verdict out. Although your reasoning makes sense it is no excuse for effectively delaying things for 8 months so that (in the end) the punishment does not fit the crime).
The 3 day hearing started on the 23rd June. If was bought forward because Barnsley threatened legal action. Why it was not held much much earlier is a mystery. Let us be generous and say it took as long to decide the punishment as it did to hear the evidence, and then double it, the punishment should have been announced on the 3rd of July. At the very latest.
That would have allowed a full four weeks for an appeal to be heard. Not forgetting that no fresh evidence is allowed at an appeal, so say 14 days to get your appeal in. There should be no way that an appeal hearing would take as long - so say a day. All could have been done and dusted before the end of the season if there was a will to do so. Like Wigan in fact.
The fact is that there was no “will to do so”. The EFL should explain why that was so.
Sheffield Wednesday have the right to appeal and that could easily go into October - if they had been relegated by applying the points deduction this season then a successful appeal would have thrown the fixture list into utter confusion. If they appeal and win then the 12 points can be rescinded without it impacting on the fixtures. The decision by the disciplinary panel was not based on natural justice but on pragmatism.
Then they should have had the disciplinary hearing earlier.....or been quicker getting the verdict out. Although your reasoning makes sense it is no excuse for effectively delaying things for 8 months so that (in the end) the punishment does not fit the crime).
I'm not an apologist for the EFL - they are the biggest bunch of useless c*nts going (apart from the mob trying to buy us) - I'm just stating the reality.
Sheffield Wednesday have the right to appeal and that could easily go into October - if they had been relegated by applying the points deduction this season then a successful appeal would have thrown the fixture list into utter confusion. If they appeal and win then the 12 points can be rescinded without it impacting on the fixtures. The decision by the disciplinary panel was not based on natural justice but on pragmatism.
Then they should have had the disciplinary hearing earlier.....or been quicker getting the verdict out. Although your reasoning makes sense it is no excuse for effectively delaying things for 8 months so that (in the end) the punishment does not fit the crime).
But unless the punishment is handed out when the crime took place (2 years ago) then it doesn't really make a difference when it is applied. Why would they rush the hearing when there's no way the punishment can be applied to the correct season.
@bobmunro s reasoning above is the first time this has really made sense to me.
If we take legal action we are likely to get nothing. If in the unlikely event we were successful then it would be a financial pay day in a few years time. Timescales involved mean this is now essentially done.
Would be funny if they appeal and the punishment is applied now as a result, as what should happen.
You know that if the boot was on the other foot our appeal would be dismissed as frivolous and punishment upgraded to 24-point penalty next season as we'd already been relegated.
Sheffield Wednesday have the right to appeal and that could easily go into October - if they had been relegated by applying the points deduction this season then a successful appeal would have thrown the fixture list into utter confusion. If they appeal and win then the 12 points can be rescinded without it impacting on the fixtures. The decision by the disciplinary panel was not based on natural justice but on pragmatism.
Then they should have had the disciplinary hearing earlier.....or been quicker getting the verdict out. Although your reasoning makes sense it is no excuse for effectively delaying things for 8 months so that (in the end) the punishment does not fit the crime).
But unless the punishment is handed out when the crime took place (2 years ago) then it doesn't really make a difference when it is applied. Why would they rush the hearing when there's no way the punishment can be applied to the correct season.
@bobmunro s reasoning above is the first time this has really made sense to me.
Well, I see how that argument of course stacks up but you must remember that the IDC had reached a position in March 2020 (following 5 months of investigation as I understand it to have been) to drop the charges against the individuals at Sheff Weds but not the club.
Why then did it take another 4 months to issue the decision against the club? And cynically and nakedly to release that decision on the eve of the Cup Final so that the story would be 'buried' somewhat during the subsequent days media.
There's pragmatism and there's just plain deviousness and this whole thing suggests both were in play at the expense of rational and fair decision making,
Wishing Charlton good luck with this. Two things, Wednesday were lucky that the independent panel set the punishment at only -12 points, also that the points are carried over to next season. If you read the full story, they committed fraud and deception. The sale of their stadium, to themselves, was back dated by over a year, the price was inflated and no money was ever transferred by the sale. The owner, created new companies and moved the sale around, this was done over one year after the FFP had shown them to have overspent. They will get hit next season with a further charge.
I will be watching out to see what the EFL do, it is another crazy decision. Not sure why the punishment was not imposed straight away. Genuinely hope it comes good for Charlton and other championship clubs get behind your club.
What a cringy little bastard you are.
Lets remind ourselves you are owned by a family that abuse human rights and that same family ( yes the bin laden family) one member carried out the biggest terrorist act in modern times.
Wishing Charlton good luck with this. Two things, Wednesday were lucky that the independent panel set the punishment at only -12 points, also that the points are carried over to next season. If you read the full story, they committed fraud and deception. The sale of their stadium, to themselves, was back dated by over a year, the price was inflated and no money was ever transferred by the sale. The owner, created new companies and moved the sale around, this was done over one year after the FFP had shown them to have overspent. They will get hit next season with a further charge.
I will be watching out to see what the EFL do, it is another crazy decision. Not sure why the punishment was not imposed straight away. Genuinely hope it comes good for Charlton and other championship clubs get behind your club.
What a cringy little bastard you are.
Lets remind ourselves you are owned by a family that abuse human rights and that same family ( yes the bin laden family) one member carried out the biggest terrorist act in modern times.
We will see how this goes shall we pig.
Isn't there somewhere in Sheffield you could be having this argument?
Also, as well as being factually inaccurate, trying to use a terrorist atrocity to score points in an argument about football is pretty low.
Wishing Charlton good luck with this. Two things, Wednesday were lucky that the independent panel set the punishment at only -12 points, also that the points are carried over to next season. If you read the full story, they committed fraud and deception. The sale of their stadium, to themselves, was back dated by over a year, the price was inflated and no money was ever transferred by the sale. The owner, created new companies and moved the sale around, this was done over one year after the FFP had shown them to have overspent. They will get hit next season with a further charge.
Not to mention the illegal sponsorship deals, also designed to help them with FFP. Isn't there a fake taxi (no not that one) company that don't actually exist as a taxi firm sponsoring them? Basically another dodgy company set up by Chansiri .
I wrote to the EFL on the !st August a copy of my email is on page 6 of this thread. Below is a response I have received in the last few minutes. Basically they passed the whole case, including sanctions, to an Independent Commission...i.e a cop-out!!
Hello Malc
Thank you for your email.
While I note your views on this matter, it is first worth clarifying that one of the main responsibilities of the EFL is to enforce and uphold its rules and regulations, as agreed by and on behalf of all member Clubs, in order to maintain sporting integrity.
In November 2019 the EFL issued Sheffield Wednesday with a charge relating to breaches of its Profitability and Sustainability (P&S) rules. Since then the matter has been in the hands of the Independent Disciplinary Commission, and it is the Commission themselves who has responsibility for reaching a decision on any potential sanction, following representations from both parties. While we share the view that these matters should be concluded as quickly as possible, due to the complex and legal nature of the charges, the process can take a significant period of time to be resolved.
The panel conducted a full hearing at the end of June 2020, before finding Sheffield Wednesday guilty based on the fact that the Club should not have included profits from the sale of Hillsborough Stadium in financial statements for the period ending July 2018. The panel therefore decided the Club will face a 12 point deduction, and that this would take effect in season 2020/21.
For absolute clarity, while EFL rules determine the application of points deductions for an insolvency event, such as Administration (in the case of Wigan Athletic), the decision and timing of any sanctions determined by an Independent Disciplinary Commission, is entirely at their discretion.
I hope that has provided further clarity in relation to your query and thank you for contacting the EFL.
I wrote to the EFL on the !st August a copy of my email is on page 6 of this thread. Below is a response I have received in the last few minutes. Basically they passed the whole case, including sanctions, to an Independent Commission...i.e a cop-out!!
Hello Malc
Thank you for your email.
While I note your views on this matter, it is first worth clarifying that one of the main responsibilities of the EFL is to enforce and uphold its rules and regulations, as agreed by and on behalf of all member Clubs, in order to maintain sporting integrity.
In November 2019 the EFL issued Sheffield Wednesday with a charge relating to breaches of its Profitability and Sustainability (P&S) rules. Since then the matter has been in the hands of the Independent Disciplinary Commission, and it is the Commission themselves who has responsibility for reaching a decision on any potential sanction, following representations from both parties. While we share the view that these matters should be concluded as quickly as possible, due to the complex and legal nature of the charges, the process can take a significant period of time to be resolved.
The panel conducted a full hearing at the end of June 2020, before finding Sheffield Wednesday guilty based on the fact that the Club should not have included profits from the sale of Hillsborough Stadium in financial statements for the period ending July 2018. The panel therefore decided the Club will face a 12 point deduction, and that this would take effect in season 2020/21.
For absolute clarity, while EFL rules determine the application of points deductions for an insolvency event, such as Administration (in the case of Wigan Athletic), the decision and timing of any sanctions determined by an Independent Disciplinary Commission, is entirely at their discretion.
I hope that has provided further clarity in relation to your query and thank you for contacting the EFL.
Regards,
Jessica
Supporter Services Department
EFL
I received an identical response this morning from Danny in the Supporters Services Department.
While I note your views on this matter, it is first worth clarifying that one of the main responsibilities of the EFL is to enforce and uphold its rules and regulations, as agreed by and on behalf of all member Clubs, in order to maintain sporting integrity.
In November 2019 the EFL issued Sheffield Wednesday with a charge relating to breaches of its Profitability and Sustainability (P&S) rules. Since then the matter has been in the hands of the Independent Disciplinary Commission, and it is the Commission themselves who has responsibility for reaching a decision on any potential sanction, following representations from both parties. While we share the view that these matters should be concluded as quickly as possible, due to the complex and legal nature of the charges, the process can take a significant period of time to be resolved.
The panel conducted a full hearing at the end of June 2020, before finding Sheffield Wednesday guilty based on the fact that the Club should not have included profits from the sale of Hillsborough Stadium in financial statements for the period ending July 2018. The panel therefore decided the Club will face a 12 point deduction, and that this would take effect in season 2020/21.
For absolute clarity, while EFL rules determine the application of points deductions for an insolvency event, such as Administration (in the case of Wigan Athletic), the decision and timing of any sanctions determined by an Independent Disciplinary Commission, is entirely at their discretion.
Comments
If you read the full story, they committed fraud and deception. The sale of their stadium, to themselves, was back dated by over a year, the price was inflated and no money was ever transferred by the sale.
The owner, created new companies and moved the sale around, this was done over one year after the FFP had shown them to have overspent. They will get hit next season with a further charge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w_PBeMLRv0
There are plans in place to extend the kop and south stand, should take the capacity up to near the 38 - 40k mark.
I went to the Valley twice to see United, once in the Premiership season, it has a feel like Bramall Lane, thoroughly enjoyed the visits.
The youngsters today sing it a bit to fast
Genuinely hope it comes good for Charlton and other championship clubs get behind your club.
Sheffield Wednesday have the right to appeal and that could easily go into October - if they had been relegated by applying the points deduction this season then a successful appeal would have thrown the fixture list into utter confusion. If they appeal and win then the 12 points can be rescinded without it impacting on the fixtures.
The decision by the disciplinary panel was not based on natural justice but on pragmatism.
That would have allowed a full four weeks for an appeal to be heard. Not forgetting that no fresh evidence is allowed at an appeal, so say 14 days to get your appeal in. There should be no way that an appeal hearing would take as long - so say a day. All could have been done and dusted before the end of the season if there was a will to do so. Like Wigan in fact.
@bobmunro s reasoning above is the first time this has really made sense to me.
Call yourself a solicitor Farnell your having a laugh.
Why then did it take another 4 months to issue the decision against the club?
And cynically and nakedly to release that decision on the eve of the Cup Final so that the story would be 'buried' somewhat during the subsequent days media.
There's pragmatism and there's just plain deviousness and this whole thing suggests both were in play at the expense of rational and fair decision making,
Lets remind ourselves you are owned by a family that abuse human rights and that same family ( yes the bin laden family) one member carried out the biggest terrorist act in modern times.
We will see how this goes shall we pig.
Also, as well as being factually inaccurate, trying to use a terrorist atrocity to score points in an argument about football is pretty low.
How have they been able to get away with this?
Hello Malc
Thank you for your email.
While I note your views on this matter, it is first worth clarifying that one of the main responsibilities of the EFL is to enforce and uphold its rules and regulations, as agreed by and on behalf of all member Clubs, in order to maintain sporting integrity.
In November 2019 the EFL issued Sheffield Wednesday with a charge relating to breaches of its Profitability and Sustainability (P&S) rules. Since then the matter has been in the hands of the Independent Disciplinary Commission, and it is the Commission themselves who has responsibility for reaching a decision on any potential sanction, following representations from both parties. While we share the view that these matters should be concluded as quickly as possible, due to the complex and legal nature of the charges, the process can take a significant period of time to be resolved.
The panel conducted a full hearing at the end of June 2020, before finding Sheffield Wednesday guilty based on the fact that the Club should not have included profits from the sale of Hillsborough Stadium in financial statements for the period ending July 2018. The panel therefore decided the Club will face a 12 point deduction, and that this would take effect in season 2020/21.
For absolute clarity, while EFL rules determine the application of points deductions for an insolvency event, such as Administration (in the case of Wigan Athletic), the decision and timing of any sanctions determined by an Independent Disciplinary Commission, is entirely at their discretion.
I hope that has provided further clarity in relation to your query and thank you for contacting the EFL.
Regards,
Jessica
Supporter Services Department
EFL
Hello Valley Ant
Thank you for your e-mail
While I note your views on this matter, it is first worth clarifying that one of the main responsibilities of the EFL is to enforce and uphold its rules and regulations, as agreed by and on behalf of all member Clubs, in order to maintain sporting integrity.
In November 2019 the EFL issued Sheffield Wednesday with a charge relating to breaches of its Profitability and Sustainability (P&S) rules. Since then the matter has been in the hands of the Independent Disciplinary Commission, and it is the Commission themselves who has responsibility for reaching a decision on any potential sanction, following representations from both parties. While we share the view that these matters should be concluded as quickly as possible, due to the complex and legal nature of the charges, the process can take a significant period of time to be resolved.
The panel conducted a full hearing at the end of June 2020, before finding Sheffield Wednesday guilty based on the fact that the Club should not have included profits from the sale of Hillsborough Stadium in financial statements for the period ending July 2018. The panel therefore decided the Club will face a 12 point deduction, and that this would take effect in season 2020/21.
For absolute clarity, while EFL rules determine the application of points deductions for an insolvency event, such as Administration (in the case of Wigan Athletic), the decision and timing of any sanctions determined by an Independent Disciplinary Commission, is entirely at their discretion.
Kind Regard
Danny
Supporter Services Department
EFL