If Charlton are no more, restrictions protecting the club may no longer be deemed necessary. There is no point in there being a football ground on the site so planning permissions would very likely be opened up. The land suddenly becomes very valuable.
Greenwich is a Labour controlled council. If Southwark is anything to go by in terms of property development, this should be a worrying detail
Sorry, don't get your point?
Isn’t there some sort of planning restriction regarding the Valley site?
Yes, but it is linked to the club and protects the club from asset grabbers. So if the club is no more the restriction potentially loses its reason for being there.
If Charlton are no more, restrictions protecting the club may no longer be deemed necessary. There is no point in there being a football ground on the site so planning permissions would very likely be opened up. The land suddenly becomes very valuable.
Greenwich is a Labour controlled council. If Southwark is anything to go by in terms of property development, this should be a worrying detail
Sorry, don't get your point?
Isn’t there some sort of planning restriction regarding the Valley site?
It's called an an Asset of Community Value (ACV). It was lodged by the Trust and gives you six months to make a counter offer to anyone wanting to purchase the land but the vendor has the final say in who they want to deal with IIRC.
The EFL kick us out and then ESI files for bankruptcy. No money to pay the directors and no money to pay Roland his £50m. But Roland has the ground and training ground without the barrier of a club.
The EFL kick us out and then ESI files for bankruptcy. No money to pay the directors and no money to pay Roland his £50m. But Roland has the ground and training ground without the barrier of a club.
But what good is that for Roland? Other than an asset, he can’t really do much with either bits of real estate. Personally think Roland is playing a very dangerous game here. I certainly wouldn’t want to play poker against him! You’d have to play every hand as the fucker just won’t fold!
I'm sure it was reported at the time of the takeover, that Roland made a comment to the fans along the lines of "enjoy it while you can", which struck me as odd & faintly sinister - hence why I remember it.
But I cannot now find a reference to it, and am beginning to doubt my sanity! Can anyone confirm my recollection?
If my memory is true, it would certainly fit a scenario where RD believed the club's days to be numbered.
To be honest, if we die, what council is just going to let a football stadium with no club to play in it rot and crumble on the land ad infinitum?
Oh I agree it could be developed but I don’t think it’s the goldmine envisaged by some. The confines of access might well limit the quantity of new dwellings so as to make it quite a difficult development. Add into that the cost of demolishing The Valley and clearing the site of contaminates and it might just not be economically viable. At least not just as viable as hundreds if not thousands of parcels of land with none of the issues The Valley has.
I honestly don't believe CAFC folding would have any advantages for Roland. Even as prime land, he isn't foolish enough and will know he's biggest chance of selling his asset at the highest price is back to CAFC. He won't get near 50m otherwise.
For me Roland has taken the deal which lands him the most cash, he doesn't want to be seen as a failure. As odd as the decision he made to tell to TN, being Roland I'm not really supprised.
I generally do not think when he made this deal it was to end CAFC.
If the club has folded and Roland can sell the land then there's also the cost of pulling down the stadium and as someone mentioned earlier the cost of cleaning the soil.
If RD holds on to the property and sells the club to be mismanaged to extinction he frees up a lot of property for his money. A lot more than he would ever make from a football club.
So THIS is why he didn’t want to sell to the Aussies!; he wants the club to be expelled from the League, so he can exploit the value in the land.
Roland then not only gains financially, but also gets one over on the Charlton fans who gave him a hard time.
But if Charlton ceased to exist would the council automatically change the designation of the land as only for leisure use? I’m not sure.
If RD holds on to the property and sells the club to be mismanaged to extinction he frees up a lot of property for his money. A lot more than he would ever make from a football club.
So THIS is why he didn’t want to sell to the Aussies!; he wants the club to be expelled from the League, so he can exploit the value in the land.
Roland then not only gains financially, but also gets one over on the Charlton fans who gave him a hard time.
But if Charlton ceased to exist would the council automatically change the designation of the land as only for leisure use? I’m not sure.
Is it? Or would he have sold to anyone who offered £50m+?
If RD holds on to the property and sells the club to be mismanaged to extinction he frees up a lot of property for his money. A lot more than he would ever make from a football club.
So THIS is why he didn’t want to sell to the Aussies!; he wants the club to be expelled from the League, so he can exploit the value in the land.
Roland then not only gains financially, but also gets one over on the Charlton fans who gave him a hard time.
But if Charlton ceased to exist would the council automatically change the designation of the land as only for leisure use? I’m not sure.
Is it? Or would he have sold to anyone who offered £50m+?
No one interested in Charlton as a football club only would pay that, and he knew that. Although might they have done if we looked like being promoted?
To be honest, if we die, what council is just going to let a football stadium with no club to play in it rot and crumble on the land ad infinitum?
Oh I agree it could be developed but I don’t think it’s the goldmine envisaged by some. The confines of access might well limit the quantity of new dwellings so as to make it quite a difficult development. Add into that the cost of demolishing The Valley and clearing the site of contaminates and it might just not be economically viable. At least not just as viable as hundreds if not thousands of parcels of land with none of the issues The Valley has.
Developers face problems every day of the week. The Valley won’t be a problem and just think of the amount of flats not houses 4 or 5 high and multiples of blocks across the site. All selling for for £400k+. It’s easy money in London. Add to that whatever developers can get on the training ground. I’m sure the bitter and twisted old man is sitting down now and congratulating himself.
If Charlton are no more, restrictions protecting the club may no longer be deemed necessary. There is no point in there being a football ground on the site so planning permissions would very likely be opened up. The land suddenly becomes very valuable.
Greenwich is a Labour controlled council. If Southwark is anything to go by in terms of property development, this should be a worrying detail
Sorry, don't get your point?
Isn’t there some sort of planning restriction regarding the Valley site?
Are planning restrictions different for Labour controlled councils?
To be honest, if we die, what council is just going to let a football stadium with no club to play in it rot and crumble on the land ad infinitum?
Oh I agree it could be developed but I don’t think it’s the goldmine envisaged by some. The confines of access might well limit the quantity of new dwellings so as to make it quite a difficult development. Add into that the cost of demolishing The Valley and clearing the site of contaminates and it might just not be economically viable. At least not just as viable as hundreds if not thousands of parcels of land with none of the issues The Valley has.
Developers face problems every day of the week. The Valley won’t be a problem and just think of the amount of flats not houses 4 or 5 high and multiples of blocks across the site. All selling for for £400k+. It’s easy money in London. Add to that whatever developers can get on the training ground. I’m sure the bitter and twisted old man is sitting down now and congratulating himself.
Exactly, Upton Park was developed into 840 flats at £360k to £480k, as an example, the two sites we have could be worth a hell of a lot.
If RD holds on to the property and sells the club to be mismanaged to extinction he frees up a lot of property for his money. A lot more than he would ever make from a football club.
So THIS is why he didn’t want to sell to the Aussies!; he wants the club to be expelled from the League, so he can exploit the value in the land.
Roland then not only gains financially, but also gets one over on the Charlton fans who gave him a hard time.
But if Charlton ceased to exist would the council automatically change the designation of the land as only for leisure use? I’m not sure.
Totally agree I think he is a vindictive old man who seeks revenge upon those visits to Belgium. I think if he gets his revenge upon Charlton fans he will just get even more visits especially to his hotel
If RD holds on to the property and sells the club to be mismanaged to extinction he frees up a lot of property for his money. A lot more than he would ever make from a football club.
So THIS is why he didn’t want to sell to the Aussies!; he wants the club to be expelled from the League, so he can exploit the value in the land.
Roland then not only gains financially, but also gets one over on the Charlton fans who gave him a hard time.
But if Charlton ceased to exist would the council automatically change the designation of the land as only for leisure use? I’m not sure.
Totally agree I think he is a vindictive old man who seeks revenge upon those visits to Belgium. I think if he gets his revenge upon Charlton fans he will just get even more visits especially to his hotel
Hopefully he gets a lot of cancellations. Just a thought.
If RD holds on to the property and sells the club to be mismanaged to extinction he frees up a lot of property for his money. A lot more than he would ever make from a football club.
So THIS is why he didn’t want to sell to the Aussies!; he wants the club to be expelled from the League, so he can exploit the value in the land.
Roland then not only gains financially, but also gets one over on the Charlton fans who gave him a hard time.
But if Charlton ceased to exist would the council automatically change the designation of the land as only for leisure use? I’m not sure.
Totally agree I think he is a vindictive old man who seeks revenge upon those visits to Belgium. I think if he gets his revenge upon Charlton fans he will just get even more visits especially to his hotel
I genuinely don’t think he wants revenge, I don’t think he cares what happens provided he gets his money.
I'm sure it was reported at the time of the takeover, that Roland made a comment to the fans along the lines of "enjoy it while you can", which struck me as odd & faintly sinister - hence why I remember it.
But I cannot now find a reference to it, and am beginning to doubt my sanity! Can anyone confirm my recollection?
If my memory is true, it would certainly fit a scenario where RD believed the club's days to be numbered.
'"Enjoy the moment"" a Roland quote.
When i first read this the alarm bells started to ring .
LOOKING back on this site last night i came across what i think is the first mention of this Roland Quote.......Jan 2nd 2020 7-16pm Sale of Charlton Ding Dong. @airman brown refers to it,as he had been watching ""Rolands rambling nonsense""on sky he did say enjoy the moment.
Let’s play a game. let's call it the Nimer game. You are looking to buy a football club.
There is a club that ticks a lot of the boxes but the current owner is asking a
lot of money for it. You decide you need somebody to front this serious
financial undertaking. The most qualified person seems to be a failure with no
impressive entries on his CV who with a tiny amount of digging you find, recently couldn’t
afford to pay his solicitor’s legal fees.
So you talk to the owner and without doing proper due diligence
you agree a price double what anybody else has indicated they were willing to
pay for it. You provided a legal guarantee that you would pay this money, but
because you were in a hurry to buy the club and invest in players to keep it in
the division, you decided to take on the
loss making part of it for £1. You were willing to commit yourself to the
ridiculous £50plus million price but you weren’t going to pay it now or check if the club was worth it.
Then after making such a desperate commitment because it was
so urgent, you find that the League the club is paying in won’t accept you as a
fit and proper owner. But actually, it is worse than that, you don’t even test
them. You hold off on actually giving them the information they need to decide. (this is something I think we could really get some more info from Southall on if we were willing to hold our noses) You decide not to pay a penny in, when the
reason you rushed in was this was so desperately needed. Then this loser
fronting your group starts getting angry because he is not seeing money coming
in and he doesn’t understand why……………..
Is this a fair summary and if so, is it believable that Nimer would do this or have any expectation that he could be liable for £50m plus at any point?
For me, there was no rush to purchase the club. We know that
now as the reason given for the rush did not play out. It was too reckless to be true to commit to
paying £50m in those circumstances. At least fail the EFL test and we might
identify a stumbling block. By not submitting the evidence, it shows a
knowledge that the test would be failed. This was all a scam to separate the club from
its assets. The ridiculous price was needed to stop a knight in shining armour coming
to the rescue. The holder of the assets has to be in on it to some extent.
Whether that be from his idea, which I personally doubt, or by agreeing to pay when approached by chancers who
promised they could do it for him.
What is worrying is that as long as there is a club, the assets are not worth as much as they could be ................
You can’t rule out that an abandoned Valley might eventually secure consent for residential development but it is very far from bring prime land in London terms. Duchatelet has a scheme to justify his value but it has never been tested with Greenwich and it’s obvious overdevelopment.
The site has severe access problems for vehicles in terms of large scale residential redevelopment - the level crossing, the width restriction in Church Lane, the turn in Floyd Road, Ransom Walk and the chalk cliffs. There are soil issues and a major sewer. There is a bloody great football stadium to demolish and there is the current designation of the land as community open space to overcome.
All of these things limit the number of homes you can build and the council, even if it cooperated, would want a large element to be social and/or affordable housing, which it can make a condition. Most important, development has costs of itself. These include fixed upfront payments in respect of additional services needed from the council, as well as materials, plant, labour, legals etc. The profit, to be shared with any builder, isn’t the difference between the price of the land and the sale price of the homes. It’s that latter figure net of all the other costs.
Even if you could build 400 properties you’d struggle to justify spending £50m on the land given all the uncertainties that lie in the way, even if you had it. And there is no scenario I can see that someone doesn’t have to pay the ex-directors £7m on top. They must be paid if CAFC goes out of business. If the club cannot pay then Roland must.
Of course, if a ticket is available in this lottery for £1 most people would snap it up. Elliott may well have bought one. But so what?
But you know well enough that Roland isn't all there. The question is more whether he believes he can get top dollar for the assets without the club. That is surely all that matters. Do you honestly think he doesn't? All of his comments and his valuation seems to suggest he does.
You can’t rule out that an abandoned Valley might eventually secure consent for residential development but it is very far from bring prime land in London terms. Duchatelet has a scheme to justify his value but it has never been tested with Greenwich and it’s obvious overdevelopment.
The site has severe access problems - the level crossing, the turn in Floyd Road, Ransom Walk and the chalk cliffs. There are soil issues and a major sewer. There is a bloody great football stadium to demolish and there is the current designation of the land as community open space to overcome.
All of these things limit the number of houses you can build and the council, even if it cooperated, would want a large element to be social and/or affordable housing. Most important, development has costs of itself. The profit isn’t the difference between the price of the land and the sale price of the homes. It’s that figure net of all the other costs.
Even if you could build 400 properties you’d struggle to justify spending £50m on the land given all the uncertainties that lie in the way, even if you had it. And there is no scenario I can see that someone doesn’t have to pay the ex-directors £7m on top.
Of course, if a ticket is available in this lottery for £1 most people would snap it up. Elliott may well have bought one. But so what?
Yes all of the above is correct but is it not also correct that there would be a far greater chance of getting Greenwich Council to the table if there is no club associated with the ground ? I have no idea what if anything can be done to force the issue as at the end of the day it isn't down to the EFL to force owners to supply requested information if they do not wish to do so. If an owner wants their club out of the league then it is their prerogative I suppose. It just makes sense to me that this has always been the end game plan
You can’t rule out that an abandoned Valley might eventually secure consent for residential development but it is very far from bring prime land in London terms. Duchatelet has a scheme to justify his value but it has never been tested with Greenwich and it’s obvious overdevelopment.
The site has severe access problems - the level crossing, the turn in Floyd Road, Ransom Walk and the chalk cliffs. There are soil issues and a major sewer. There is a bloody great football stadium to demolish and there is the current designation of the land as community open space to overcome.
All of these things limit the number of houses you can build and the council, even if it cooperated, would want a large element to be social and/or affordable housing. Most important, development has costs of itself. The profit isn’t the difference between the price of the land and the sale price of the homes. It’s that figure net of all the other costs.
Even if you could build 400 properties you’d struggle to justify spending £50m on the land given all the uncertainties that lie in the way, even if you had it. And there is no scenario I can see that someone doesn’t have to pay the ex-directors £7m on top.
Of course, if a ticket is available in this lottery for £1 most people would snap it up. Elliott may well have bought one. But so what?
Yes all of the above is correct but is it not also correct that there would be a far greater chance of getting Greenwich Council to the table if there is no club associated with the ground ? I have no idea what if anything can be done to force the issue as at the end of the day it isn't down to the EFL to force owners to supply requested information if they do not wish to do so. If an owner wants their club out of the league then it is their prerogative I suppose. It just makes sense to me that this has always been the end game plan
Southall is irrelevant here. The question is whether we believe Nimer ever had intention of giving up £50m for the club. If the answer is no, then there is a scam going on. It seems to be quite an elaborate one with multiple parties involved. Where is the money to make it worth their while? Is it not possible, based on some evidence, that Roland thinks the land is worth a lot of money without the club. That is all that is needed, whether he is right or wrong.
You know I sing your praises Airman. You are always the biggest champion of our beloved club. But isn't what you are saying, what people have been trying to say to Duchatelet for a while without much success?
Comments
For me Roland has taken the deal which lands him the most cash, he doesn't want to be seen as a failure. As odd as the decision he made to tell to TN, being Roland I'm not really supprised.
I generally do not think when he made this deal it was to end CAFC.
a hard time.
Looks urgent.
Let’s play a game. let's call it the Nimer game. You are looking to buy a football club. There is a club that ticks a lot of the boxes but the current owner is asking a lot of money for it. You decide you need somebody to front this serious financial undertaking. The most qualified person seems to be a failure with no impressive entries on his CV who with a tiny amount of digging you find, recently couldn’t afford to pay his solicitor’s legal fees.
So you talk to the owner and without doing proper due diligence you agree a price double what anybody else has indicated they were willing to pay for it. You provided a legal guarantee that you would pay this money, but because you were in a hurry to buy the club and invest in players to keep it in the division, you decided to take on the loss making part of it for £1. You were willing to commit yourself to the ridiculous £50plus million price but you weren’t going to pay it now or check if the club was worth it.
Then after making such a desperate commitment because it was so urgent, you find that the League the club is paying in won’t accept you as a fit and proper owner. But actually, it is worse than that, you don’t even test them. You hold off on actually giving them the information they need to decide. (this is something I think we could really get some more info from Southall on if we were willing to hold our noses) You decide not to pay a penny in, when the reason you rushed in was this was so desperately needed. Then this loser fronting your group starts getting angry because he is not seeing money coming in and he doesn’t understand why……………..
Is this a fair summary and if so, is it believable that Nimer would do this or have any expectation that he could be liable for £50m plus at any point?
For me, there was no rush to purchase the club. We know that now as the reason given for the rush did not play out. It was too reckless to be true to commit to paying £50m in those circumstances. At least fail the EFL test and we might identify a stumbling block. By not submitting the evidence, it shows a knowledge that the test would be failed. This was all a scam to separate the club from its assets. The ridiculous price was needed to stop a knight in shining armour coming to the rescue. The holder of the assets has to be in on it to some extent. Whether that be from his idea, which I personally doubt, or by agreeing to pay when approached by chancers who promised they could do it for him.
What is worrying is that as long as there is a club, the assets are not worth as much as they could be ................
The site has severe access problems for vehicles in terms of large scale residential redevelopment - the level crossing, the width restriction in Church Lane, the turn in Floyd Road, Ransom Walk and the chalk cliffs. There are soil issues and a major sewer. There is a bloody great football stadium to demolish and there is the current designation of the land as community open space to overcome.
Of course, if a ticket is available in this lottery for £1 most people would snap it up. Elliott may well have bought one. But so what?
You know I sing your praises Airman. You are always the biggest champion of our beloved club. But isn't what you are saying, what people have been trying to say to Duchatelet for a while without much success?