Anyone who honestly thinks letting Williams leave is anything but absolutely horrific business needs their head examined.
One of, if not the most, talented players in the squad. Do people not remember how unbelievable he was at the beginning of the season? And if anyone says he’s injury prone, that’s just not fair. Before October he’d not really had an injury for 18 months, he’s come back in since and been very good.
Exactly the type of player we need if we want to progress.
I'm sure we have an option to extend his deal too, so as you say it would be horrific business to let a good championship player leave. It would likely cost a decent transfer fee and equal level, if not higher, salary to replace him.
For a player who is deemed to be injury prone, he's played 35 games for us since last January, that's a good number.
Anyone who honestly thinks letting Williams leave is anything but absolutely horrific business needs their head examined.
One of, if not the most, talented players in the squad. Do people not remember how unbelievable he was at the beginning of the season? And if anyone says he’s injury prone, that’s just not fair. Before October he’d not really had an injury for 18 months, he’s come back in since and been very good.
Exactly the type of player we need if we want to progress.
I'm sure we have an option to extend his deal too, so as you say it would be horrific business to let a good championship player leave. It would likely cost a decent transfer fee and equal level, if not higher, salary to replace him.
For a player who is deemed to be injury prone, he's played 35 games for us since last January, that's a good number.
People are saying that Sarr would have to have his wages reduced to be in line with the rest of the squad but if we are going to have to sign 10 new players, wouldn't we have to start paying wages that are more in line with Sarr's current wages?
And does Sarr earn as much as most other Championship players? Does he earn a lot more than say Bauer at Preston? Or David Davis at Birmingham?
People are saying that Sarr would have to have his wages reduced to be in line with the rest of the squad but if we are going to have to sign 10 new players, wouldn't we have to start paying wages that are more in line with Sarr's current wages?
And does Sarr earn as much as most other Championship players? Does he earn a lot more than say Bauer at Preston? Or David Davis at Birmingham?
Sarr's wages were horrendous for a L1 squad player, but in the Championship I imagine they're actually pretty low when compared to what the mid sized teams are paying, never mind the ex PL ones.
With all the players on loan and out of contract, with the average Championship much higher than what we currently pay, it looks like an expensive summer for the new owners even if they try to build on the cheap.
Anyone who honestly thinks letting Williams leave is anything but absolutely horrific business needs their head examined.
One of, if not the most, talented players in the squad. Do people not remember how unbelievable he was at the beginning of the season? And if anyone says he’s injury prone, that’s just not fair. Before October he’d not really had an injury for 18 months, he’s come back in since and been very good.
Exactly the type of player we need if we want to progress.
Considering I am the only one in this thread who has mentioned that Sage, I am quiet disappointed in your choice of words.
Once again. I am not doubting his talent at all, and said if he can prove he can play a long run of 90 minute games then I would keep him in a heartbeat. But here we are again with him missing another game (even if he is being rested) after playing 5 games of 20-70 minutes since coming back from injury.
My point is I think his inability to play consistent games turns out to be more detrimental to the team then the time he does play for us.
Anyone who honestly thinks letting Williams leave is anything but absolutely horrific business needs their head examined.
One of, if not the most, talented players in the squad. Do people not remember how unbelievable he was at the beginning of the season? And if anyone says he’s injury prone, that’s just not fair. Before October he’d not really had an injury for 18 months, he’s come back in since and been very good.
Exactly the type of player we need if we want to progress.
Considering I am the only one in this thread who has mentioned that Sage, I am quiet disappointed in your choice of words.
Once again. I am not doubting his talent at all, and said if he can prove he can play a long run of 90 minute games then I would keep him in a heartbeat. But here we are again with him missing another game (even if he is being rested) after playing 5 games of 20-70 minutes since coming back from injury.
My point is I think his inability to play consistent games turns out to be more detrimental to the team then the time he does play for us.
The cub updated their article to say he didnt have a knock he was rested.
It's simply good management of a key player. Hes coming back from a long layoff and having his minutes managed on advice from the medical department because hes a key player.
Its sensible. Modern football is all about who rotates best and who manages that the best. During our poor run we didnt have the capacity to rotate and all it did was exacerbate our issues with players playing on the edge of fitness and more picking up injuries.
To single out Jonny for something that is now accepted as as part of modern football and has a sound backing in sorts science is weird.
Imo when bow has had a full squad (start of the season and recently since the Fulham game) he has rotated very well. Forest last night showed us how not to do it.
Anyone who honestly thinks letting Williams leave is anything but absolutely horrific business needs their head examined.
One of, if not the most, talented players in the squad. Do people not remember how unbelievable he was at the beginning of the season? And if anyone says he’s injury prone, that’s just not fair. Before October he’d not really had an injury for 18 months, he’s come back in since and been very good.
Exactly the type of player we need if we want to progress.
I'm sure we have an option to extend his deal too, so as you say it would be horrific business to let a good championship player leave. It would likely cost a decent transfer fee and equal level, if not higher, salary to replace him.
For a player who is deemed to be injury prone, he's played 35 games for us since last January, that's a good number.
Cannot wait for a goal! He deserves it
But then he’ll have to do the tunnel jump, twist his ankle on landing, and be out for another six weeks. No, stick to passing.
Williams will be an interesting one, will he suddenly want the kind of money he used to be on now the club isn't skint, and does his injury record command that kind of money
Anyone who honestly thinks letting Williams leave is anything but absolutely horrific business needs their head examined.
One of, if not the most, talented players in the squad. Do people not remember how unbelievable he was at the beginning of the season? And if anyone says he’s injury prone, that’s just not fair. Before October he’d not really had an injury for 18 months, he’s come back in since and been very good.
Exactly the type of player we need if we want to progress.
Considering I am the only one in this thread who has mentioned that Sage, I am quiet disappointed in your choice of words.
Once again. I am not doubting his talent at all, and said if he can prove he can play a long run of 90 minute games then I would keep him in a heartbeat. But here we are again with him missing another game (even if he is being rested) after playing 5 games of 20-70 minutes since coming back from injury.
My point is I think his inability to play consistent games turns out to be more detrimental to the team then the time he does play for us.
The cub updated their article to say he didnt have a knock he was rested.
It's simply good management of a key player. Hes coming back from a long layoff and having his minutes managed on advice from the medical department because hes a key player.
Its sensible. Modern football is all about who rotates best and who manages that the best. During our poor run we didnt have the capacity to rotate and all it did was exacerbate our issues with players playing on the edge of fitness and more picking up injuries.
To single out Jonny for something that is now accepted as as part of modern football and has a sound backing in sorts science is weird.
Imo when bow has had a full squad (start of the season and recently since the Fulham game) he has rotated very well. Forest last night showed us how not to do it.
Again, what is it with this language? First Sage, and now you, both from the apparent more respected posters on here. It's not like I am Brown59 and just making wild claims, I have tried to back up what I have said with statistics. However I've been told I'm weird and need to get my head checked.
I do not have the time to go into a deep dive into his stats, but just a quick look will tell you that he has had long term injuries in 3 of the last 4 seasons, only completed 7 (I think from memory) 90 minute games for Charlton since he has been here, and averages around 60 minutes a game when he does play. Even Bowyer just described him as being 'very fragile'.
You say I am singling out Johnny. Let's look at Cullen on the flip side, he has also just come from injury around the same time as Williams but has played 90 minutes every game since then, and also played 90 minutes every game before his injury. Why is he not being rotated out, and being rested canters?
For me, if Williams cannot play a consistent run of games for the rest of the season, as good as he is, I would rather his wages were spent elsewhere on someone more reliable.
Anyone who honestly thinks letting Williams leave is anything but absolutely horrific business needs their head examined.
One of, if not the most, talented players in the squad. Do people not remember how unbelievable he was at the beginning of the season? And if anyone says he’s injury prone, that’s just not fair. Before October he’d not really had an injury for 18 months, he’s come back in since and been very good.
Exactly the type of player we need if we want to progress.
Considering I am the only one in this thread who has mentioned that Sage, I am quiet disappointed in your choice of words.
Once again. I am not doubting his talent at all, and said if he can prove he can play a long run of 90 minute games then I would keep him in a heartbeat. But here we are again with him missing another game (even if he is being rested) after playing 5 games of 20-70 minutes since coming back from injury.
My point is I think his inability to play consistent games turns out to be more detrimental to the team then the time he does play for us.
The cub updated their article to say he didnt have a knock he was rested.
It's simply good management of a key player. Hes coming back from a long layoff and having his minutes managed on advice from the medical department because hes a key player.
Its sensible. Modern football is all about who rotates best and who manages that the best. During our poor run we didnt have the capacity to rotate and all it did was exacerbate our issues with players playing on the edge of fitness and more picking up injuries.
To single out Jonny for something that is now accepted as as part of modern football and has a sound backing in sorts science is weird.
Imo when bow has had a full squad (start of the season and recently since the Fulham game) he has rotated very well. Forest last night showed us how not to do it.
Again, what is it with this language? First Sage, and now you, both from the apparent more respected posters on here. It's not like I am Brown59 and just making wild claims, I have tried to back up what I have said with statistics. However I've been told I'm weird and need to get my head checked.
I do not have the time to go into a deep dive into his stats, but just a quick look will tell you that he has had long term injuries in 3 of the last 4 seasons, only completed 7 (I think from memory) 90 minute games for Charlton since he has been here, and averages around 60 minutes a game when he does play. Even Bowyer just described him as being 'very fragile'.
You say I am singling out Johnny. Let's look at Cullen on the flip side, he has also just come from injury around the same time as Williams but has played 90 minutes every game since then, and also played 90 minutes every game before his injury. Why is he not being rotated out, and being rested canters?
For me, if Williams cannot play a consistent run of games for the rest of the season, as good as he is, I would rather his wages were spent elsewhere on someone more reliable.
I agree with most of this apart from rather his wages were spent elsewhere. Williams is fragile Bowyer has said so aka made of glass, made of biscuits.
He has not managed to complete a full season for many years and it's likely that he never will, bearing in mind he runs with the ball and most opposition teams continuously kick him.
If he is on a wage that reflects he will possibly play half the games and even then maybe only play 60/70 mins, then I'd like him to stay.
If he's one of our most highly paid players, when he's only contributing 50% of the time, then that can't be right.
The reality is if JW was able to play 90 minutes every game all season he would certainly not be playing for Charlton having taken a huge paycut in the process. The bloke is class, show a bit back.
Williams will be an interesting one, will he suddenly want the kind of money he used to be on now the club isn't skint, and does his injury record command that kind of money
Williams will be an interesting one, will he suddenly want the kind of money he used to be on now the club isn't skint, and does his injury record command that kind of money
Evidence?
Still waiting for yours to show that ESI hasn’t got a pot to piss in, other than conjecture and guesswork. When does the permanent campaign stop?
Anyone who honestly thinks letting Williams leave is anything but absolutely horrific business needs their head examined.
One of, if not the most, talented players in the squad. Do people not remember how unbelievable he was at the beginning of the season? And if anyone says he’s injury prone, that’s just not fair. Before October he’d not really had an injury for 18 months, he’s come back in since and been very good.
Exactly the type of player we need if we want to progress.
Considering I am the only one in this thread who has mentioned that Sage, I am quiet disappointed in your choice of words.
Once again. I am not doubting his talent at all, and said if he can prove he can play a long run of 90 minute games then I would keep him in a heartbeat. But here we are again with him missing another game (even if he is being rested) after playing 5 games of 20-70 minutes since coming back from injury.
My point is I think his inability to play consistent games turns out to be more detrimental to the team then the time he does play for us.
Woah, hang on mate. My post was not aimed at anyone, so I apologise if you’ve taken offence but it was not aimed at you at all. It was a clear point that I was making due to his ability being exactly the type of player we nee, and I don’t think anyone can 100% justify him not staying. He’s an exceptional player. My post was not aimed at you, honestly, otherwise I would’ve quoted you, like I have others when I’ve singled out one particular post.
If we take a look into Williams though, he joined us January 2019. He started 14 of a possible 20 games.
This season he featured in each of the first 12 games, and has started 12 out of a possible 18 that he’s been fit for. He has came off the bench 5 times, and was completely rested on Tuesday, the first time that’s ever happened since joining us. The rest of the games, 14 of them, he missed through a meniscus injury.
His previous injuries have been through a dislocated shoulder, once at Ipswich, once at Sunderland. If you take a look through his injuries, other than those two (which once you dislocate your shoulder, you’re prone to it again), and the meniscus, which I’ve explained in depth before that it was wrong to play him in that Derby game. The rest have been no different to any other player. In fact, it’s quite impressive that he hasn’t had a succession of muscular injuries due to how he plays the game.
Finally, evidence is all there to support the work and programme he is on via sports science and the data analysis. Sometimes you just need to look after players in a specific way, everyone is different and if it was possible, everyone should have a tailored programme, unfortunately that doesn’t happen in football. However, to make the comparison between him and Cullen for example is unfair due to natural fitness, type of previous injury, and position played of the pair.
Fair enough mate, perhaps I was too easily offended.
As ever, especially when it comes to this sort topic, you make a very solid argument, and it's interesting to get a better understanding of the injury/recovery process.
Hopefully he can be managed in the correct way and we can get run of games out of him until the end of the season.
Williams will be an interesting one, will he suddenly want the kind of money he used to be on now the club isn't skint, and does his injury record command that kind of money
Evidence?
Still waiting for yours to show that ESI hasn’t got a pot to piss in, other than conjecture and guesswork. When does the permanent campaign stop?
Roland Duchatelet had plenty of money and he actually loaned a considerable amount of it to the club. It just happened to be spent badly. So your first premise, that the club was previously “skint”, is nonsense.
ESI may or may not have access to funds. I don’t know, but what I see is them trying to raise funds now to finance the club and no evidence of spending so far. No evidence that they have spent more than £1 on buying the club and no evidence of additional spending during the transfer window, despite rhetoric.
There’s no permanent campaign but there does seem to be permanent credulity in some quarters. Evidence is the antidote. You are the one asserting a fact - “the club is not skint” - I am simply reserving judgement and wondering why you believe that without evidence.
Nobody, by the way, has the right to demand anybody spends money on the club. We can all understand owners that want the best for it without having the funds. We just expect honesty.
But if you are going to make promises about buying freeholds and spending £15m on the training ground in short order you had better deliver or there will be a reckoning, and that won’t need my involvement.
To get back to the subject of the thread, the club will need to operate at a loss to remain in the Championship over more than the short term. That’s why the question is at the heart of the issue.
For me, given how much grief the EFL got (and deserved) in recent times over certain things, they would have been particularly stringent in making sure that the money was real before approving the takeover. Moreover the likes of Green (from a club recently in the Premier league, even as a youth), Davis (established Championship player) and McGeady (Sunderland, enough said) won't have come cheap, even if we aren't paying their full wages.
I have no empirical evidence or financial expertise but I suspect we as a club are neither broke nor are we minted. There's money enough to compete and survive but pushing on for promotion is what the sponsorship/fundraising efforts are made for.
Amos, Solly, Sarr new deals but only really as squad players. JFC perhaps too if he can stay fit.
Morgan should get another 1-2 years as a hope for the future.
Hemed can go. Page obviously will too.
This
page as sad as it is, we cant afford to carry players - hopefully does his coaching badges and we can maybe help him with that, but his injury record is appauling, the same with williams unfortunately due to injuries he will always be on a 1 year contract, football clubs as mentioned are businesses.
i think williams realises this and he is adored by the fans and that is why it is a good fit hes a localish lad and he admits its the happiest he has been in a long time playing football.
@Airman Brown in what way are they trying to raise funds? For example there’s a big difference between trying to attract new investors compared to attempting to increase crowds, bring in more and bigger sponsors etc.
Williams will be an interesting one, will he suddenly want the kind of money he used to be on now the club isn't skint, and does his injury record command that kind of money
@Airman Brown in what way are they trying to raise funds? For example there’s a big difference between trying to attract new investors compared to attempting to increase crowds, bring in more and bigger sponsors etc.
Both. Some people previously interested in buying the club have been approached to see if they are still interested in becoming involved.
Comments
For a player who is deemed to be injury prone, he's played 35 games for us since last January, that's a good number.
And does Sarr earn as much as most other Championship players? Does he earn a lot more than say Bauer at Preston? Or David Davis at Birmingham?
I think in the cold hard light of day the argument I make is compelling, and you only have to go through his season history here (https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/jonathan-williams/leistungsdaten/spieler/170322/plus/0?saison=2015) to see that he definitely is injury prone.
Once again. I am not doubting his talent at all, and said if he can prove he can play a long run of 90 minute games then I would keep him in a heartbeat. But here we are again with him missing another game (even if he is being rested) after playing 5 games of 20-70 minutes since coming back from injury.
My point is I think his inability to play consistent games turns out to be more detrimental to the team then the time he does play for us.
It's simply good management of a key player. Hes coming back from a long layoff and having his minutes managed on advice from the medical department because hes a key player.
Its sensible. Modern football is all about who rotates best and who manages that the best. During our poor run we didnt have the capacity to rotate and all it did was exacerbate our issues with players playing on the edge of fitness and more picking up injuries.
To single out Jonny for something that is now accepted as as part of modern football and has a sound backing in sorts science is weird.
Imo when bow has had a full squad (start of the season and recently since the Fulham game) he has rotated very well. Forest last night showed us how not to do it.
I do not have the time to go into a deep dive into his stats, but just a quick look will tell you that he has had long term injuries in 3 of the last 4 seasons, only completed 7 (I think from memory) 90 minute games for Charlton since he has been here, and averages around 60 minutes a game when he does play. Even Bowyer just described him as being 'very fragile'.
You say I am singling out Johnny. Let's look at Cullen on the flip side, he has also just come from injury around the same time as Williams but has played 90 minutes every game since then, and also played 90 minutes every game before his injury. Why is he not being rotated out, and being rested canters?
For me, if Williams cannot play a consistent run of games for the rest of the season, as good as he is, I would rather his wages were spent elsewhere on someone more reliable.
I want him to stay, but only on sensible wages as he’s important but not that important
Williams is fragile Bowyer has said so aka made of glass, made of biscuits.
He has not managed to complete a full season for many years and it's likely that he never will, bearing in mind he runs with the ball and most opposition teams continuously kick him.
If he is on a wage that reflects he will possibly play half the games and even then maybe only play 60/70 mins, then I'd like him to stay.
If he's one of our most highly paid players, when he's only contributing 50% of the time, then that can't be right.
If we take a look into Williams though, he joined us January 2019. He started 14 of a possible 20 games.
This season he featured in each of the first 12 games, and has started 12 out of a possible 18 that he’s been fit for. He has came off the bench 5 times, and was completely rested on Tuesday, the first time that’s ever happened since joining us. The rest of the games, 14 of them, he missed through a meniscus injury.
His previous injuries have been through a dislocated shoulder, once at Ipswich, once at Sunderland. If you take a look through his injuries, other than those two (which once you dislocate your shoulder, you’re prone to it again), and the meniscus, which I’ve explained in depth before that it was wrong to play him in that Derby game. The rest have been no different to any other player. In fact, it’s quite impressive that he hasn’t had a succession of muscular injuries due to how he plays the game.
Finally, evidence is all there to support the work and programme he is on via sports science and the data analysis. Sometimes you just need to look after players in a specific way, everyone is different and if it was possible, everyone should have a tailored programme, unfortunately that doesn’t happen in football. However, to make the comparison between him and Cullen for example is unfair due to natural fitness, type of previous injury, and position played of the pair.
As ever, especially when it comes to this sort topic, you make a very solid argument, and it's interesting to get a better understanding of the injury/recovery process.
Hopefully he can be managed in the correct way and we can get run of games out of him until the end of the season.
ESI may or may not have access to funds. I don’t know, but what I see is them trying to raise funds now to finance the club and no evidence of spending so far. No evidence that they have spent more than £1 on buying the club and no evidence of additional spending during the transfer window, despite rhetoric.
There’s no permanent campaign but there does seem to be permanent credulity in some quarters. Evidence is the antidote. You are the one asserting a fact - “the club is not skint” - I am simply reserving judgement and wondering why you believe that without evidence.
Nobody, by the way, has the right to demand anybody spends money on the club. We can all understand owners that want the best for it without having the funds. We just expect honesty.
But if you are going to make promises about buying freeholds and spending £15m on the training ground in short order you had better deliver or there will be a reckoning, and that won’t need my involvement.
To get back to the subject of the thread, the club will need to operate at a loss to remain in the Championship over more than the short term. That’s why the question is at the heart of the issue.
I have no empirical evidence or financial expertise but I suspect we as a club are neither broke nor are we minted. There's money enough to compete and survive but pushing on for promotion is what the sponsorship/fundraising efforts are made for.
page as sad as it is, we cant afford to carry players - hopefully does his coaching badges and we can maybe help him with that, but his injury record is appauling, the same with williams unfortunately due to injuries he will always be on a 1 year contract, football clubs as mentioned are businesses.
i think williams realises this and he is adored by the fans and that is why it is a good fit hes a localish lad and he admits its the happiest he has been in a long time playing football.