Can someone point to reliable data on the benefit of creating a new electric car, [with all the required extraction of copper, lithium, cobalt, manganese, steel, paint, shipping etc etc] compared to maintaing a 10 year old car instead?
Can someone point to reliable data on the benefit of creating a new electric car, [with all the required extraction of copper, lithium, cobalt, manganese, steel, paint, shipping etc etc] compared to maintaing a 10 year old car instead?
Not off the top of my head I can’t but that ten year old ICE car also had its production costs in terms of materials and over its ten year lifetime has emitted an awful lot of pollutants. It has also had a good many replacement parts that come with an ecological cost so over its lifetime and for a car of that age it’s been a climate disaster. If you look at my posts on EV’s you’ll see I’m in favour but recognise that at this point I don’t think they work for everyone and I include myself in that. I also recognise that going forward EV’s are the future and every great journey starts with but a single step. We need ICE vehicles to rapidly disappear. The up front cost of an EV in terms of materials will definitely be ofset by its ongoing greener credentials over its lifespan.
Can someone point to reliable data on the benefit of creating a new electric car, [with all the required extraction of copper, lithium, cobalt, manganese, steel, paint, shipping etc etc] compared to maintaing a 10 year old car instead?
There is data out there on tonnes of C02 emitted in car production. I read 6-7 tonnes for a VW Up, which is probably one of the lowest, 17 tonnes for a medium family car. My ICE Fiesta emits less than a ton a year, 50 mpg, 6000 miles a year if that helps for comparison. However, if I was driving a VW Trabant, it's a no brainier. I'd be changing to an EV.
Edit - stopping production of ICE's and reducing demand for new cars overall is the best way forward environmentally imo.
I hate that electric cars cannot just compete in an open marketplace, and instead the government has to resort to making everyone who owns an ICE car's life harder.
I hate that electric cars cannot just compete in an open marketplace, and instead the government has to resort to making everyone who owns an ICE car's life harder.
Fuel duty has been high for years Nick, and very polluting cars are supposed to pay more duty/tax than less polluting cars because of the damage they do to the environment. It’s just logic.
So, I'm watching all this with interest - Climate change, I believe is real, and in the uk we're doing loads to help (apparently) - mainly through higher costs to the consumer.. But we need to look at the big picture, the UK has just closed down its' last Coal-fired power station to reduce emissions - cool huh... - but look what Chat GPT tells us is the last 20 years of coal....
Can someone point to reliable data on the benefit of creating a new electric car, [with all the required extraction of copper, lithium, cobalt, manganese, steel, paint, shipping etc etc] compared to maintaing a 10 year old car instead?
This is the killer question for me and we should know the answer from the top of our heads. Not have to dig up some charts that tell us what we want to know. It should be broadcast from the rooftops........but isn't.
Edit - Looking at what other countries do when they are exporting to other economies isn't that helpful. Climate change isn't an 'us' and 'them' problem to resolve. We're all in it together and it's individuals who's demands drive change, that's you and I, how we live our lives.
here's the graph of number of coal-fired power stations:
I'm not sure if you're aware, but there is a climate change thread for broader debate, although it stays dormant for long periods such is the level of complacency over the issue.
Can someone point to reliable data on the benefit of creating a new electric car, [with all the required extraction of copper, lithium, cobalt, manganese, steel, paint, shipping etc etc] compared to maintaing a 10 year old car instead?
This is the killer question for me and we should know the answer from the top of our heads. Not have to dig up some charts that tell us what we want to know. It should be broadcast from the rooftops........but isn't.
Can someone point to reliable data on the benefit of creating a new electric car, [with all the required extraction of copper, lithium, cobalt, manganese, steel, paint, shipping etc etc] compared to maintaing a 10 year old car instead?
This is the killer question for me and we should know the answer from the top of our heads. Not have to dig up some charts that tell us what we want to know. It should be broadcast from the rooftops........but isn't.
I suppose what I really would be looking for is somewhere that pointed out downsides and upsides as you would have to be naive to not accept there are both. Then you could weigh both up.
Can someone point to reliable data on the benefit of creating a new electric car, [with all the required extraction of copper, lithium, cobalt, manganese, steel, paint, shipping etc etc] compared to maintaing a 10 year old car instead?
This is the killer question for me and we should know the answer from the top of our heads. Not have to dig up some charts that tell us what we want to know. It should be broadcast from the rooftops........but isn't.
I suppose what I really would be looking for is somewhere that pointed out downsides and upsides as you would have to be naive to not accept there are both. Then you could weigh both up.
I see your point and it is frustrating. If you scroll to the end of the skeptoid link it has a full list of sources for the information. Your link has none.
Whilst that doesn’t make the second link ‘wrong’ it does reduce its value as a source of information however the site is reputable as far as I can tell.
I can see the situations where EVs work. I still can't find a, what I consider, to be a reliable source which says EVs are better than keeping older cars on the road longer. By this I mean small practical ICEs, not rich people's ego trips ICEs.
And I fully agree, public transport needs to be cheaper and better which is a view that was held decades ago but is mentioned less now than it was. I see a lot of people buying electric cars who were buying ICE tanks they didn't need. I'm not sure these people have strong environmental credentials.
Can someone point to reliable data on the benefit of creating a new electric car, [with all the required extraction of copper, lithium, cobalt, manganese, steel, paint, shipping etc etc] compared to maintaing a 10 year old car instead?
This is the killer question for me and we should know the answer from the top of our heads. Not have to dig up some charts that tell us what we want to know. It should be broadcast from the rooftops........but isn't.
I suppose what I really would be looking for is somewhere that pointed out downsides and upsides as you would have to be naive to not accept there are both. Then you could weigh both up.
I see your point and it is frustrating. If you scroll to the end of the skeptoid link it has a full list of sources for the information. Your link has none.
Whilst that doesn’t make the second link ‘wrong’ it does reduce its value as a source of information however the site is reputable as far as I can tell.
The whole section on EV’s is quite even handed (as is the Skeptoid link) about good and bad in my view.
Ultimately EVs work for many, are over a given period of time result in lower climate impact of an equivalent ICE vehicle.
That said the ultimate environmental solution is less cars and better/cheaper public transport not different cars (in my view).
I make you right, but worth emphasizing that switching to an EV isn't the be all and end all. You can reduce your ICE car emissions with less aggressive driving and doing less mileage in it. Every little helps, and pocket the difference 🙂
Can someone point to reliable data on the benefit of creating a new electric car, [with all the required extraction of copper, lithium, cobalt, manganese, steel, paint, shipping etc etc] compared to maintaing a 10 year old car instead?
This is the killer question for me and we should know the answer from the top of our heads. Not have to dig up some charts that tell us what we want to know. It should be broadcast from the rooftops........but isn't.
Can someone point to reliable data on the benefit of creating a new electric car, [with all the required extraction of copper, lithium, cobalt, manganese, steel, paint, shipping etc etc] compared to maintaing a 10 year old car instead?
This is the killer question for me and we should know the answer from the top of our heads. Not have to dig up some charts that tell us what we want to know. It should be broadcast from the rooftops........but isn't.
This is a basic background but is a good start from a reputable source that will make clear the source of their information.
It doesnt go near answering my question though.
When comparing the environmental impact of producing a new electric vehicle (EV) versus maintaining a 10-year-old ICE car, several key factors come into play. The production of a new EV does involve significant upfront emissions, particularly due to the extraction and processing of raw materials like lithium, cobalt, and nickel for the battery, as well as the manufacturing of steel and other components. However, over its lifetime, an EV typically results in much lower emissions compared to a combustion engine car.
Studies indicate that even after accounting for the higher emissions from the production of an EV, its lifecycle emissions (including both manufacturing and operational phases) are significantly lower than those of an ICE vehicle. In Europe, for example, EVs can have up to 69% fewer lifecycle emissions compared to an ICE car. This advantage is even more pronounced in regions with cleaner electricity grids, such as Norway, where the emissions savings are even higher.
For a 10-year-old car, the emissions from its continued use can be substantial, especially as the vehicle ages and becomes less fuel-efficient. A well-maintained car can still perform efficiently, but it will typically emit much more CO2 per mile compared to a new EV. The argument that keeping an old car is greener than purchasing a new EV applies primarily when the old car is still relatively efficient and driven infrequently. However, the carbon debt from producing an EV can be paid back within just a few years, especially when replacing inefficient older vehicles.
In general, while maintaining a 10-year-old car may seem appealing in the short term, replacing it with a new EV would offer significant long-term environmental benefits. It would help reduce emissions more rapidly, particularly as the electricity grid becomes greener over time. Moreover, the argument against EVs based solely on their higher upfront carbon costs tends to overlook the larger, longer-term reductions in emissions during the vehicle’s operational life.
For the greatest reduction in environmental impact, switching from an older combustion vehicle to an EV generally proves beneficial, even when factoring in the emissions from manufacturing and resource extraction.
I see all these EVs on the road and I cannot get my head around how people are affording them.
They are horrifically expensive (so I imagine most people are taking out loans), the depreciation is scary, and you're totally at the mercy of qualified mechanics when it goes wrong (or else risk electricution).
I'm sure they're fun to drive n all but i cannot get my head around the financial equation.
Speaking for myself nick, we use motorbility which have some very good offers on the cars and chargers, should that change greatly we would rethink, we can't be alone in this but obviously it would be a small percentage of cars on the road.
I see all these EVs on the road and I cannot get my head around how people are affording them.
They are horrifically expensive (so I imagine most people are taking out loans), the depreciation is scary, and you're totally at the mercy of qualified mechanics when it goes wrong (or else risk electricution).
I'm sure they're fun to drive n all but i cannot get my head around the financial equation.
"horrifically expensive" ? When comparing like with like that is not an accurate statement. Perhaps starting your "financial equation" in the correct place will help.
Mercedes-Benz inaugurated a plant for recycling EV batteries, which purports to recycle 96% of used EV batteries at an annual capacity of 2,500 tonnes of material.
Recycled materials will be throughput for producing some 50,000 batteries for the group's EV models.
Ford cutting 800 jobs citing low demand for electric cars.
Feel sorry for the workers - again I ask the government to scrap these mandates to sell X% of electric vehicles. It's a good example of government overreach.
Ford cutting 800 jobs citing low demand for electric cars.
Feel sorry for the workers - again I ask the government to scrap these mandates to sell X% of electric vehicles. It's a good example of government overreach.
Comments
https://maeving.com/pages/maeving-rm1s-electric-motorcycle
Edit - stopping production of ICE's and reducing demand for new cars overall is the best way forward environmentally imo.
Glad we have those bags for life and EV's!!
Just a thought....
Edit - Looking at what other countries do when they are exporting to other economies isn't that helpful. Climate change isn't an 'us' and 'them' problem to resolve. We're all in it together and it's individuals who's demands drive change, that's you and I, how we live our lives.
https://betterplaneteducation.org.uk/factsheets/electric-cars-what-are-the-downsides-to-electric-cars
Now I just found that with no effort but it shows you can easily find what you want to see on today's web.
I suppose what I really would be looking for is somewhere that pointed out downsides and upsides as you would have to be naive to not accept there are both. Then you could weigh both up.
The whole section on EV’s is quite even handed (as is the Skeptoid link) about good and bad in my view.
lower climate impact of an
equivalent ICE vehicle.
And I fully agree, public transport needs to be cheaper and better which is a view that was held decades ago but is mentioned less now than it was. I see a lot of people buying electric cars who were buying ICE tanks they didn't need. I'm not sure these people have strong environmental credentials.
Any positive or negative reviews on either?
When comparing the environmental impact of producing a new electric vehicle (EV) versus maintaining a 10-year-old ICE car, several key factors come into play. The production of a new EV does involve significant upfront emissions, particularly due to the extraction and processing of raw materials like lithium, cobalt, and nickel for the battery, as well as the manufacturing of steel and other components. However, over its lifetime, an EV typically results in much lower emissions compared to a combustion engine car.
Studies indicate that even after accounting for the higher emissions from the production of an EV, its lifecycle emissions (including both manufacturing and operational phases) are significantly lower than those of an ICE vehicle. In Europe, for example, EVs can have up to 69% fewer lifecycle emissions compared to an ICE car. This advantage is even more pronounced in regions with cleaner electricity grids, such as Norway, where the emissions savings are even higher.
For a 10-year-old car, the emissions from its continued use can be substantial, especially as the vehicle ages and becomes less fuel-efficient. A well-maintained car can still perform efficiently, but it will typically emit much more CO2 per mile compared to a new EV. The argument that keeping an old car is greener than purchasing a new EV applies primarily when the old car is still relatively efficient and driven infrequently. However, the carbon debt from producing an EV can be paid back within just a few years, especially when replacing inefficient older vehicles.
In general, while maintaining a 10-year-old car may seem appealing in the short term, replacing it with a new EV would offer significant long-term environmental benefits. It would help reduce emissions more rapidly, particularly as the electricity grid becomes greener over time. Moreover, the argument against EVs based solely on their higher upfront carbon costs tends to overlook the larger, longer-term reductions in emissions during the vehicle’s operational life.
For the greatest reduction in environmental impact, switching from an older combustion vehicle to an EV generally proves beneficial, even when factoring in the emissions from manufacturing and resource extraction.
ICCT
Climate Champions
They are horrifically expensive (so I imagine most people are taking out loans), the depreciation is scary, and you're totally at the mercy of qualified mechanics when it goes wrong (or else risk electricution).
I'm sure they're fun to drive n all but i cannot get my head around the financial equation.
Ford cutting 800 jobs citing low demand for electric cars.
Feel sorry for the workers - again I ask the government to scrap these mandates to sell X% of electric vehicles. It's a good example of government overreach.