Under normal circumstances, I'm sure Addicks would not be contemplating a scheme such as that outlined by Grapevine, and people like Henry are very right to point out the potential pitfalls. My fear would be what sort of owner would want to buy a loss-making club without the ground.
However, circumstances are NOT normal, and in my opinion CASTrust should be encouraged to investigate all possibilities as thoroughly as they can. Then any decisions which need to be made - maybe at short notice - can be taken from a position of knowledge, not just guesswork.
Of course, in an ideal world Charlton would be owned lock, stock & barrel by a single well-intentioned entity with deep pockets and long arms. We may not get there in a single step, particularly while Roland is responsible for the sale.
Sometimes it is quicker and easier to go round 3 sides of a square to get to the next corner, and IF fan action can provide that necessary detour then surely we should be looking into it? It may prove to be a non-starter for many reasons, but at the moment no-one knows for sure.
I know the words 'Rod' and 'Liddle' are about as popular on here as the words 'Rampant' and 'Herpes' BUT RL has written a very good article in todays S Times. It's both perceptive and amusing as well as right on the money. The subject is Duchatelets letter in particular and barmy club owners in general .. I know the S Times is hardly the newsread of choice for most, but if you can get hold of a copy of if someone who subscribes online can do a paste and copy, it's well worth a read r comment
I know the words 'Rod' and 'Liddle' are about as popular on here as the words 'Rampant' and 'Herpes' BUT RL has written a very good article in todays S Times. It's both perceptive and amusing as well as right on the money. The subject is Duchatelets letter in particular and barmy club owners in general .. I know the S Times is hardly the newsread of choice for most, but if you can get hold of a copy of if someone who subscribes online can do a paste and copy, it's well worth a read r comment
One issue I see with the fans owning the ground and training ground is what happens if the club doesn't pay the rent or carry out the required maintenance?
Will we evict the club?
We would be hostages to the owners and they would know that.
Even a "friendly" separation of club and ground is, IMHO, a bad idea although still better than Duchatelet.
Coming late to this, but I wonder if you could put the Valley in the hands of the fans by whatever legal means, and lease it back to the club effectively free and allow the tenant to retain all revenues on the basis they retain all associated costs of operation and improvement. In essence the ground would be held in trust, but operated to the sole benefit of the football club at the cost of the football club.
Possibly but when owner doesn't pay the rates or maintain the pitch, what then?
I'm afraid this question needs a good answer. Right now, I don't have one.
Is a landlord responsible for a tenant's business rates? I think most of this could be handled in a lasting trust deed, which would be legally enforceable.
I recognise the risk Henry's suggesting, and of course all of this is somewhat dependent on good owners, I'm simply suggesting it's another option we shouldn't rule out.
Ultimately you would aim to set up legally such that it wasn't in a future owner's interests not to do the basics.
Yes the EFL should acquire the club and all of its assets if only to take us out of the hands of an owner who is clearly not fit and proper, and based upon this latest missive really appears to have issues normally dealt with by people in white coats. The posting of that unusual CV on the website for an English Football Club really does sound like a cry for help. Whoever is responsible for the regulation on the Brussels Stock Exchange of his company Melexis should also take note,
Funny that The Guardian article features a picture of "Coventry" fans protesting at their game at The Valley when it is, in fact, Charlton fans that are wearing the t-shirts spelling "SISU OUT" .
Funny that The Guardian article features a picture of "Coventry" fans protesting at their game at The Valley when it is, in fact, Charlton fans that are wearing the t-shirts spelling "SISU OUT" .
Here's an idea for Roly that should fit in with his philosophy if I'm reading his CV correctly - in order for all the pain, suffering and torture that he has put Charlton through he should gift all 10,000 of us a one off basic income supplement of £7000 which would be funded by the transfer of the club lock stack and barrel into a trust for the benefit of all the recipients - RD would then meet his asking price and satisfy his political aims at the same time. I'm sure the trust could come up with some arrangement for those who wanted to cash in their £7000 and spend it on vol au vents etc,
Funny that The Guardian article features a picture of "Coventry" fans protesting at their game at The Valley when it is, in fact, Charlton fans that are wearing the t-shirts spelling "SISU OUT" .
Dora was by far the most eloquent of those gathered that day. I’ve heard a rumour that the EFL are considering headhunting her to be their new CEO when Harvey goes. Far too bright to be wasted on such an organisation.
According to the minutes of last weeks FF, there is a FULL FF today/tonight. Are the people attending going to raise the RD statement with tonight's Club attendees? Will LDT be there or is this just the Valley based staff? To add please see a few sentences taking from the minutes, and then compare to what RD said in his 'interview' where he said there are no negotiations ongoing!
LDT said there are still three parties interested in buying the club.
When asked why the Australians haven’t completed the deal yet LDT said he feels the Australian group is too complex. He said he still speaks with Australians every two to three days.
According to the minutes of last weeks FF, there is a FULL FF today/tonight. Are the people attending going to raise the RD statement with tonight's Club attendees? Will LDT be there or is this just the Valley based staff? To add please see a few sentences taking from the minutes, and then compare to what RD said in his 'interview' where he said there are no negotiations ongoing!
LDT said there are still three parties interested in buying the club.
When asked why the Australians haven’t completed the deal yet LDT said he feels the Australian group is too complex. He said he still speaks with Australians every two to three days.
Someone should simply ask who is lying LDT or Rolland.
Questions above around what happens if club stop paying bills, maintaining ground, etc On the flip side what would stop a club walking away from the stadium, etc
I'm no expert but any number of clauses could be inserted into a lease, which could ultimately result in termination. Could a club be required to surrender its registration in that event?
I guess the problem would be with the required restrictive clauses would anyone be willing to take the club on.
Can I suggest we hurry up and get this concluded? Because it's Monday lunchtime already, and there is a Fans Forum meeting this evening. The Great Thinker will probably have come up with two or three gems to share with the FF tonight, through his mouthpiece LdT. Probably on the lines of
1. Hey, the cloob is located in Sparrows Lane. Can we sell some of these sparrows to pie-makers? Or, at least charge them rent.
2. If the EFL won't buy the cloob, can we sell the cloob to UK Athletics? Surely they need a "Charlton Athletic" to add to their collection of athletics?
3. The EFL have lots of cloobs who are losing money. So, if we aggregate their value, it is probably a negative number. So, I propose to buy the EFL and get them to pay me £70m at the same time. So the combined business will be known as Charlton Athletic Football League, and we will have 71 teams acting as nursery teams for us, and I can share the costs across the whole group and loan players whenever I want between whichever team I want and Thomas can pick the sides and we don't need Managers and I think I need another lie-down again... nurse!
Questions above around what happens if club stop paying bills, maintaining ground, etc On the flip side what would stop a club walking away from the stadium, etc
I'm no expert but any number of clauses could be inserted into a lease, which could ultimately result in termination. Could a club be required to surrender its registration in that event?
I guess the problem would be with the required restrictive clauses would anyone be willing to take the club on.
Yep. The key would be enabling the club to fully exploit the assets, whilst maintaining a responsibility for their upkeep - the two probably go hand in hand. May be unworkable, would be interested in views of those more knowledgeable.
If LdT is there this evening, then I think it is imperative the FF raises the inconsistencies between his assurances and RD's statements on talkSPORT with respect to the presence or absence of ongoing sales negotiations, and that the responses are minuted, because it is extremely difficult to see how both can be telling the truth - or even half truths.
Unfortunately, without trust (and in the circumstances how can there be any?) assurances given by the regime on any topic are likely to be taken with a large pinch of salt. This not only has implications for fans but also for employees and for any others who have business dealings with the club.
Just a small difference with @Grapevine49 s excellent post, regarding the money. I always stated that buying a football club is for those with money they don't need, for example Roland Duchatalet. For the rest of us however, it's not so easy. I don't know how many people would be prepared to chip in 2500 quid, but I would not. For a start, it would go to Roland, something I wouldn't consider. This all looks like a desperate play, but here's the crunch, once the group of fans own the club, and pick an executive group to start taking decisions, how long would the next request for another 2,500 quid take? And the next? This is a money losing business. If RD ran us literally out of business, and lost his money, I would be happy to see what I could stump up to refloat the Addicks. Wimbledon and Dartford have both done so. But we would reappear way down the food chain, and costs would be much lower and more sustainable. Where we are now is very expensive, and while I applaud the sentiment, sorry but I think the numbers defeat us fans. besides, as I said, I'm not buying anything that Roland has so badly devalued. let him wake up and put a normal price on a tier 3 club.
Seriously? He will attend the meeting I presume he agreed to on the end of the telephone? I assume some kind of emergency prevents him being there in person.
Seriously? He will attend the meeting I presume he agreed to on the end of the telephone? I assume some kind of emergency prevents him being there in person.
Yes, his nose has suddenly and inexplicably grown longer...
This is an article which begins to explore facial expressions that people reveal. Presumably easier to discern face to face than on skype, and impossible to discern only listening on the telephone.
According to the minutes of last weeks FF, there is a FULL FF today/tonight. Are the people attending going to raise the RD statement with tonight's Club attendees? Will LDT be there or is this just the Valley based staff? To add please see a few sentences taking from the minutes, and then compare to what RD said in his 'interview' where he said there are no negotiations ongoing!
LDT said there are still three parties interested in buying the club.
When asked why the Australians haven’t completed the deal yet LDT said he feels the Australian group is too complex. He said he still speaks with Australians every two to three days.
Someone should simply ask who is lying LDT or Rolland.
What's the difference? If LDT is lying, he's lying on behalf of Roland. There isn't even a Roland heirachy at the club anymore, Murray has taken a clear backseat after naively believing he could win fans over in swinging them back around to RD/KM and co. and now Charlton fans no longer trust him and rightly so given how he so brazenly backed the insane last five years that rally against everything about the past Charlton that he represented.
The reality for me has always been the same. RD bought us as a 'location football club', excited by the financial prospects of a Premier League stadium, location close to many London landmarks and the well positioned and sought after training ground in Sparrows Lane. He also believed with his networking method he could solve our on-field problems (note whilst it didn't work anyway, he was about two years two f***ing late there as SCP had been working wonders and got us back to the championship, even with the off-field problems of the previous owner we had 6 games in hand when he was sacked!). The networking method had failed spectacularly at two other clubs and predictably it did at ours, in turn therefore, the location has never really paid off and now I believe he is determined to ruin us as part of an ever-growing bitter legacy, asset strip and make his money there off the land and then sell us to the lowest bidder. That's why we've yet to have an agreement with any so-called "interested party".
The statements have been growing more and more deluded over the last few years, from Meire to Duchatelet through high-profile resignations from the management team who have to work with them on this. Anyone who watches the NFL could liken some of what you are hearing to Antonio Brown currently. I believe Roland has completely lost it and like the management team he implemented, he can't control his temper or has any PR savvy and is now out to get us for daring to stand up to his control freak nature, the latter of which is made an even greater problem by how shockingly poor his system to try and develop football teams is. As he's previously stated with his 2% remark, money is not an issue. The notion no businessman can afford or, rather, is willing to afford to lose money to prove a point is not necessarily the case when dealing with a narcissist like Roland.
Regarding the property damage, also, I sincerely doubt that's been caused by Charlton fans. It's too obvious. So far the protests have been incredibly well organised and almost tongue-in-cheek in their approach, but with a serious nature of course. What has won so much empathy is they have, at no point, in an organized effect, broken the law or not any law that couldn't be argued. KM's recent newspaper interview suggesting she felt in danger is a pile of crap, if she actually did no way would she have ridden public transport. That's not ballsy or brazen, that's downright stupid and her family would have torn her away from that at the very least. I'd take a good bet that that graffiti has been perpetrated by Roland or in support of our cause by someone else. Roland's own uncertainty over it during his interview last week plays to that. He was so quick to point the finger at the fans for his demise but when it came to the one thing that would probably win him some mild support, he suddenly became quite the diplomat. I would suggest that means he knows something about that, that we don't.
I have feared for Charlton's future since this stubborn, bitter old man took over. First thing I did when he bought the club in January 2014 was log onto some Standard Leige fan sites and read their views and instantly you could tell he was going to be a problem, not the right fit for us for sure and then the sacking of SCP and selling of Yann Kermorgant confirmed it for me, as I'm sure it did many other fans. However I do remember a significant percentage of fans, especially those on the independent facebook group, all too quick to buy into Roland and back the SCP sacking ("boring football", "can't cut it without the money" etc) who presumably suddenly thought we were Man City or Leicester without actually looking into him or his football background with any real depth. He still got a lot of support after the Slade appointment too. Well I hope those of you who did feel very f***ing stupid now because this mess could genuinely destroy this football club and all those who have worked for it so remember this when (hopefully!) we are bought again, don't run to the new owner and fall at their feet because I also believe that when you get in bed with a rat like Roland, the next bed is usually dirty still. We're in a vicious circle now and we need to hope the right kind of owner comes along, and that's not necessarily one with significant finances.
I also don't think it's any surprise that results have dropped off. Bow and Jacko have done extremely well to make it just one loss in six but we've slipped in terms of wins and struggle to set ourselves early in games, like we have previously. No surprise when eventually the likes of Bow, Taylor and Purrington are drawn into criticising the owner publicly because even they can't keep quiet on the nonsense anymore. If we don't get promoted, lord knows what will happen. I don't see anyone decent staying, why would they? Whatever future we try to manufacture on the pitch, it's tied to that pr**k and it will forever drag us back down.
Comments
Under normal circumstances, I'm sure Addicks would not be contemplating a scheme such as that outlined by Grapevine, and people like Henry are very right to point out the potential pitfalls. My fear would be what sort of owner would want to buy a loss-making club without the ground.
However, circumstances are NOT normal, and in my opinion CASTrust should be encouraged to investigate all possibilities as thoroughly as they can. Then any decisions which need to be made - maybe at short notice - can be taken from a position of knowledge, not just guesswork.
Of course, in an ideal world Charlton would be owned lock, stock & barrel by a single well-intentioned entity with deep pockets and long arms. We may not get there in a single step, particularly while Roland is responsible for the sale.
Sometimes it is quicker and easier to go round 3 sides of a square to get to the next corner, and IF fan action can provide that necessary detour then surely we should be looking into it? It may prove to be a non-starter for many reasons, but at the moment no-one knows for sure.
I know the S Times is hardly the newsread of choice for most, but if you can get hold of a copy of if someone who subscribes online can do a paste and copy, it's well worth a read r comment
I recognise the risk Henry's suggesting, and of course all of this is somewhat dependent on good owners, I'm simply suggesting it's another option we shouldn't rule out.
Ultimately you would aim to set up legally such that it wasn't in a future owner's interests not to do the basics.
I had 'hold' of it for about five minutes - it was quite hilarious as they were desperately trying to find it.
To add please see a few sentences taking from the minutes, and then compare to what RD said in his 'interview' where he said there are no negotiations ongoing!
LDT said there are still three parties interested in buying the club.
When asked why the Australians haven’t completed the deal yet LDT said he feels the Australian group is too complex. He said he still speaks with Australians every two to three days.
I'm no expert but any number of clauses could be inserted into a lease, which could ultimately result in termination. Could a club be required to surrender its registration in that event?
I guess the problem would be with the required restrictive clauses would anyone be willing to take the club on.
1. Hey, the cloob is located in Sparrows Lane. Can we sell some of these sparrows to pie-makers? Or, at least charge them rent.
2. If the EFL won't buy the cloob, can we sell the cloob to UK Athletics? Surely they need a "Charlton Athletic" to add to their collection of athletics?
3. The EFL have lots of cloobs who are losing money. So, if we aggregate their value, it is probably a negative number. So, I propose to buy the EFL and get them to pay me £70m at the same time. So the combined business will be known as Charlton Athletic Football League, and we will have 71 teams acting as nursery teams for us, and I can share the costs across the whole group and loan players whenever I want between whichever team I want and Thomas can pick the sides and we don't need Managers and I think I need another lie-down again... nurse!
If LdT is there this evening, then I think it is imperative the FF raises the inconsistencies between his assurances and RD's statements on talkSPORT with respect to the presence or absence of ongoing sales negotiations, and that the responses are minuted, because it is extremely difficult to see how both can be telling the truth - or even half truths.
Unfortunately, without trust (and in the circumstances how can there be any?) assurances given by the regime on any topic are likely to be taken with a large pinch of salt. This not only has implications for fans but also for employees and for any others who have business dealings with the club.
http://news.sky.com/story/1500-smuggled-turtles-found-alive-in-abandoned-luggage-at-manila-airport-11654916
He will attend the meeting I presume he agreed to on the end of the telephone?
I assume some kind of emergency prevents him being there in person.
Yes, his nose has suddenly and inexplicably grown longer...
Presumably easier to discern face to face than on skype, and impossible to discern only listening on the telephone.
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4726785
The reality for me has always been the same. RD bought us as a 'location football club', excited by the financial prospects of a Premier League stadium, location close to many London landmarks and the well positioned and sought after training ground in Sparrows Lane. He also believed with his networking method he could solve our on-field problems (note whilst it didn't work anyway, he was about two years two f***ing late there as SCP had been working wonders and got us back to the championship, even with the off-field problems of the previous owner we had 6 games in hand when he was sacked!). The networking method had failed spectacularly at two other clubs and predictably it did at ours, in turn therefore, the location has never really paid off and now I believe he is determined to ruin us as part of an ever-growing bitter legacy, asset strip and make his money there off the land and then sell us to the lowest bidder. That's why we've yet to have an agreement with any so-called "interested party".
The statements have been growing more and more deluded over the last few years, from Meire to Duchatelet through high-profile resignations from the management team who have to work with them on this. Anyone who watches the NFL could liken some of what you are hearing to Antonio Brown currently. I believe Roland has completely lost it and like the management team he implemented, he can't control his temper or has any PR savvy and is now out to get us for daring to stand up to his control freak nature, the latter of which is made an even greater problem by how shockingly poor his system to try and develop football teams is. As he's previously stated with his 2% remark, money is not an issue. The notion no businessman can afford or, rather, is willing to afford to lose money to prove a point is not necessarily the case when dealing with a narcissist like Roland.
Regarding the property damage, also, I sincerely doubt that's been caused by Charlton fans. It's too obvious. So far the protests have been incredibly well organised and almost tongue-in-cheek in their approach, but with a serious nature of course. What has won so much empathy is they have, at no point, in an organized effect, broken the law or not any law that couldn't be argued. KM's recent newspaper interview suggesting she felt in danger is a pile of crap, if she actually did no way would she have ridden public transport. That's not ballsy or brazen, that's downright stupid and her family would have torn her away from that at the very least. I'd take a good bet that that graffiti has been perpetrated by Roland or in support of our cause by someone else. Roland's own uncertainty over it during his interview last week plays to that. He was so quick to point the finger at the fans for his demise but when it came to the one thing that would probably win him some mild support, he suddenly became quite the diplomat. I would suggest that means he knows something about that, that we don't.
I have feared for Charlton's future since this stubborn, bitter old man took over. First thing I did when he bought the club in January 2014 was log onto some Standard Leige fan sites and read their views and instantly you could tell he was going to be a problem, not the right fit for us for sure and then the sacking of SCP and selling of Yann Kermorgant confirmed it for me, as I'm sure it did many other fans. However I do remember a significant percentage of fans, especially those on the independent facebook group, all too quick to buy into Roland and back the SCP sacking ("boring football", "can't cut it without the money" etc) who presumably suddenly thought we were Man City or Leicester without actually looking into him or his football background with any real depth. He still got a lot of support after the Slade appointment too. Well I hope those of you who did feel very f***ing stupid now because this mess could genuinely destroy this football club and all those who have worked for it so remember this when (hopefully!) we are bought again, don't run to the new owner and fall at their feet because I also believe that when you get in bed with a rat like Roland, the next bed is usually dirty still. We're in a vicious circle now and we need to hope the right kind of owner comes along, and that's not necessarily one with significant finances.
I also don't think it's any surprise that results have dropped off. Bow and Jacko have done extremely well to make it just one loss in six but we've slipped in terms of wins and struggle to set ourselves early in games, like we have previously. No surprise when eventually the likes of Bow, Taylor and Purrington are drawn into criticising the owner publicly because even they can't keep quiet on the nonsense anymore. If we don't get promoted, lord knows what will happen. I don't see anyone decent staying, why would they? Whatever future we try to manufacture on the pitch, it's tied to that pr**k and it will forever drag us back down.