Alan Sugar in twitter storm
Comments
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Mate, I think you should delete thatCAFCsayer said:calydon_road said:
What is funny about it? Unless you like sniggering at the notion that all Africans are beach sellers? Including those Africans that earn money 100k plus a week playing for Everton, Liverpool, Napoli etc....CAFCsayer said:Thought it was funny, myself
The worst thing about the tweet was the total lack of humour which displays it's true intent of offense and degradation of an entire nation.
He's not0 -
Alan Sugar was a idiot posting this picture in the first place as he should know that some people will have no better things to do in their lives and get upset by it. It was a joke by Alan and it's nothing offensive by that at all.
A lot of African's around Spain do sell cheap watches and all that and if some African took the piss of us drinking tea...would I be offended by that...of course not!4 -
I'm offended by the fact us they think Brits would have crumpets with tea...it's biscuit lolcafctom said:I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?0 -
Great post Paddy17, succinct, respectful and you put across some good points
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Can't we just change the title to "Twat storm" and move on?4
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Didn't the government introduce a sugar tax recently?
Hopefully he's paying more....2 -
Absolutely some valid points here, and I agree that the difference between the example I cited (the Americans I work with) and what’s happened here with Alan Sugar is that rapport/familiarity which is important.PaddyP17 said:
I get where you're coming from. Even I'm happy when people take the piss about me being Chinese, but here's the key - it's an established rapport we have.cafctom said:I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
Alan Sugar - I presume - has no connection to the Senegal squad, which means this is bizarre casual racism.
Moreover, the power dynamics in play in these comparisons aren't that comparable:
1) You're in a setting amongst peers. You're probably equally as likely to joke about Americans, I dunno, shooting guns and worshipping bald eagles, as they are about Brits and tea and crumpets.
2) It's less offensive because this sort of stereotyping isn't demeaning. Equating all Senegalese people to those dudes who sell tat on beaches on the European continent, however, is. It's very unhelpful, because that's the only experience a lot of people have of African migrants to Spain/wherever, and quite often that brings negative connotations (pushy sales guys etc), which increases tensions. Someone with a better handle on migration/socioeconomic dynamics might be able to articulate this better than I.
3) Ah, yes, I've finally come to it. The "race card". You'll have to excuse me, as this will be very long-winded.
Yes, it's problematic that a white person* is saying this about black people. You don't have to look far back in history to recount innumerable instances of oppression facing black people. It still happens today (in America, with voting/gerrymandering; in Russia - need I explain? and even in the UK, where the Windrush scandal is disgraceful). (Thankfully, these such instances are on the wane.)
The historical power of white peoples over black peoples in the Western world means this sort of "joke" carries more weight than it would the other way around. Put simply, the power dynamic is in full effect here. Because non-white people have been exposed to it so fucking often, and it *actually* affects what happens to us (and yes, it's affected me in various ways), white-on-PoC jibes are that bit more serious than the other way around.
I personally wouldn't go so far as to say I've been systematically oppressed, but the sense of "other" people make me feel regularly isn't nice. I cannot imagine what it would be like if I didn't have an obvious English accent. I know PoC who feel as if they have been subject to systematic oppression, and I am not going to attempt to refute that.
Anyway. The crux of this point is - racism has more significance when it comes from a position of historical and, some might argue, systemic power.
*I realise Alan Sugar is of Russian/Polish Jewish extraction. That actually makes him quite hypocritical, given how rightly vocal he is about anti-Semitism.
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I hope those of you who aren't PoC can at least see where I'm coming from. And I don't mean to be patronising, I don't mean to be wailing "oh poor me", I'm just trying to explain why this is just as big a deal as people are making it out to be, from my perspective (and I suspect the perspective of many other PoC).
However, whilst you’re not wrong regarding the history/power dynamics piece, can we truly expect everyone to be as knowledgable and aware of such political/international history as you quite clearly are? And to be capable of seeing them in such a rational way?
The answer is no, not really. And that’s why I’m of the opinion that posts like Sugar’s are the sort of thing that require a ‘rolling of the eyes’ or cringe sort of response, rather than him being absolutely vilified as a racist scumbag like some would suggest.5 -
Well said. That is the point. Also agree with the it wasn't that bad camp - and if he wasn't one of the stone throwers there wouldn't be a problem.shine166 said:That knobhead is the first to shout about anti semetism and comes out with crap like that ?
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As someone has said....stuck in the 70s.
The Apprentice is crap now. Time to retire from public life I think.0 -
And that’s great , and that’s fine , but most importantly it’s different to the AS pointBaldybonce said:
In a similar vein..cafctom said:I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
Our toolbox talk this morning descended into who's going where for holidays.
Present were 1 from Dominican Republic, 1 black British, 1 Romanian and 2 English.
Says the chap from Dominican Republic
"you white people really make me laugh, you deliberately go to cold places for holidays "
Me. I can't take the sun, i just burn, i'm too fair"
Showing them my pure white legs, the 2 black blokes piss themselves laughing saying "you're so fucking white"
Naturally i was overcome with offendedness.
My family is a veritable United Nations - English , Irish , Guyanan , Indian, Jamaican, Sierra Leonian . There is regular banter, mock accents , jokes etc. This all from the safe and secure plane that is family. There is total ( almost) trust and long standing and deep relationship. We are all happy to play this way so it’s cool. The same is also true when close friends or colleagues do this just as you describe
When however strangers do this , or people with power do this there is ,or certainly can be, an entirely different dynamic in play .
Predujice + power = racism / sexism etc.
I personally doubt AS is a racist, but his post does suggest a lack of understanding or care about how stereotyping works and what it’s impact can be
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I think Paddy cracked it with,holyjo said:
And that’s great , and that’s fine , but most importantly it’s different to the AS pointBaldybonce said:
In a similar vein..cafctom said:I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
Our toolbox talk this morning descended into who's going where for holidays.
Present were 1 from Dominican Republic, 1 black British, 1 Romanian and 2 English.
Says the chap from Dominican Republic
"you white people really make me laugh, you deliberately go to cold places for holidays "
Me. I can't take the sun, i just burn, i'm too fair"
Showing them my pure white legs, the 2 black blokes piss themselves laughing saying "you're so fucking white"
Naturally i was overcome with offendedness.
My family is a veritable United Nations - English , Irish , Guyanan , Indian, Jamaican, Sierra Leonian . There is regular banter, mock accents , jokes etc. This all from the safe and secure plane that is family. There is total ( almost) trust and long standing and deep relationship. We are all happy to play this way so it’s cool. The same is also true when close friends or colleagues do this just as you describe
When however strangers do this , or people with power do this there is ,or certainly can be, an entirely different dynamic in play .
Predujice + power = racism / sexism etc.
I personally doubt AS is a racist, but his post does suggest a lack of understanding or care about how stereotyping works and what it’s impact can be
1) you're in a setting amongst peers.0 -
Do Senagalese men sell sunglasses from a blanket?
a) They did on a beach I went to once
b) Now they are unfettered of the Imperialist yoke, they are free to trade in a consumer market
c) Does it matter?
Is a photoshop of the Senegalese football team selling sunglasses from a blanket funny?
a) My Senagalese mate at work loved it
b) Jokes directed at POC is stealth racism
c) Not really
If the English football team were photoshopped wearing pith helmets and loading African slaves onto a ship, would it be racist?
a) Has Diane Abbott done this?
b) Considering the white players' ancestors were probably complicit in the slave trade - no
c) Yes...no...don't really care
Mostly a) You're racist
Mostly b) You're not racist
Mostly c) You're indifferent to an old man's tweets
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One is generalizing against a race to millions of people.... the other is between friends in privatecafctom said:I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
..... yer it's exactly the same0 -
Exactly, really don't care about his opinion... but I bet if someone made a generalised jew joke he'd be all over itMuttleyCAFC said:
Well said. That is the point. Also agree with the it wasn't that bad camp - and if he wasn't one of the stone throwers there wouldn't be a problem.shine166 said:That knobhead is the first to shout about anti semetism and comes out with crap like that ?
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Can you redo this as a venn diagram, cheers.Redskin said:Do Senagalese men sell sunglasses from a blanket?
a) They did on a beach I went to once
b) Now they are unfettered of the Imperialist yoke, they are free to trade in a consumer market
c) Does it matter?
Is a photoshop of the Senegalese football team selling sunglasses from a blanket funny?
a) My Senagalese mate at work loved it
b) Jokes directed at POC is stealth racism
c) Not really
If the English football team were photoshopped wearing pith helmets and loading African slaves onto a ship, would it be racist?
a) Has Diane Abbott done this?
b) Considering the white players' ancestors were probably complicit in the slave trade - no
c) Yes...no...don't really care
Mostly a) You're racist
Mostly b) You're not racist
Mostly c) You're indifferent to an old man's tweets4 -
Drinking tea and selling counterfeit goods are nowhere near the same thing.DiscoCAFC said:Alan Sugar was a idiot posting this picture in the first place as he should know that some people will have no better things to do in their lives and get upset by it. It was a joke by Alan and it's nothing offensive by that at all.
A lot of African's around Spain do sell cheap watches and all that and if some African took the piss of us drinking tea...would I be offended by that...of course not!
Imagine a black African multi millionaire posting an image of the white English players with booze and passed out love island slags photoshopped around them, with the caption “didn’t know you could play football when lying around pissed and getting into fights”. That’s probably a bit closer than drinking fucking tea ffs.3 -
Life was so much easier when we adhered to the old 'sticks and stones' maxim and just ripped the piss out of everyone. ;o)5
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incidentally are you a native american indian ?Redskin said:Do Senagalese men sell sunglasses from a blanket?
a) They did on a beach I went to once
b) Now they are unfettered of the Imperialist yoke, they are free to trade in a consumer market
c) Does it matter?
Is a photoshop of the Senegalese football team selling sunglasses from a blanket funny?
a) My Senagalese mate at work loved it
b) Jokes directed at POC is stealth racism
c) Not really
If the English football team were photoshopped wearing pith helmets and loading African slaves onto a ship, would it be racist?
a) Has Diane Abbott done this?
b) Considering the white players' ancestors were probably complicit in the slave trade - no
c) Yes...no...don't really care
Mostly a) You're racist
Mostly b) You're not racist
Mostly c) You're indifferent to an old man's tweets
can you give us a view from that perspective as we havent covered it ?4 -
Are you Leuth, in disguise?Redskin said:Do Senagalese men sell sunglasses from a blanket?
a) They did on a beach I went to once
b) Now they are unfettered of the Imperialist yoke, they are free to trade in a consumer market
c) Does it matter?
Is a photoshop of the Senegalese football team selling sunglasses from a blanket funny?
a) My Senagalese mate at work loved it
b) Jokes directed at POC is stealth racism
c) Not really
If the English football team were photoshopped wearing pith helmets and loading African slaves onto a ship, would it be racist?
a) Has Diane Abbott done this?
b) Considering the white players' ancestors were probably complicit in the slave trade - no
c) Yes...no...don't really care
Mostly a) You're racist
Mostly b) You're not racist
Mostly c) You're indifferent to an old man's tweets1 -
Throw some charlie in there and id be a proud Englishman.kentaddick said:
Drinking tea and selling counterfeit goods are nowhere near the same thing.DiscoCAFC said:Alan Sugar was a idiot posting this picture in the first place as he should know that some people will have no better things to do in their lives and get upset by it. It was a joke by Alan and it's nothing offensive by that at all.
A lot of African's around Spain do sell cheap watches and all that and if some African took the piss of us drinking tea...would I be offended by that...of course not!
Imagine a black African multi millionaire posting an image of the white English players with booze and passed out love island slags photoshopped around them, with the caption “didn’t know you could play football when lying around pissed and getting into fights”. That’s probably a bit closer than drinking fucking tea ffs.
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How?lolwray said:
incidentally are you a native american indian ?Redskin said:Do Senagalese men sell sunglasses from a blanket?
a) They did on a beach I went to once
b) Now they are unfettered of the Imperialist yoke, they are free to trade in a consumer market
c) Does it matter?
Is a photoshop of the Senegalese football team selling sunglasses from a blanket funny?
a) My Senagalese mate at work loved it
b) Jokes directed at POC is stealth racism
c) Not really
If the English football team were photoshopped wearing pith helmets and loading African slaves onto a ship, would it be racist?
a) Has Diane Abbott done this?
b) Considering the white players' ancestors were probably complicit in the slave trade - no
c) Yes...no...don't really care
Mostly a) You're racist
Mostly b) You're not racist
Mostly c) You're indifferent to an old man's tweets
can you give us a view from that perspective as we havent covered it ?12 -
I would have absolutely zero problem with thiskentaddick said:
Drinking tea and selling counterfeit goods are nowhere near the same thing.DiscoCAFC said:Alan Sugar was a idiot posting this picture in the first place as he should know that some people will have no better things to do in their lives and get upset by it. It was a joke by Alan and it's nothing offensive by that at all.
A lot of African's around Spain do sell cheap watches and all that and if some African took the piss of us drinking tea...would I be offended by that...of course not!
Imagine a black African multi millionaire posting an image of the white English players with booze and passed out love island slags photoshopped around them, with the caption “didn’t know you could play football when lying around pissed and getting into fights”. That’s probably a bit closer than drinking fucking tea ffs.1 -
Sounds like a quality night to be fair.kentaddick said:
Drinking tea and selling counterfeit goods are nowhere near the same thing.DiscoCAFC said:Alan Sugar was a idiot posting this picture in the first place as he should know that some people will have no better things to do in their lives and get upset by it. It was a joke by Alan and it's nothing offensive by that at all.
A lot of African's around Spain do sell cheap watches and all that and if some African took the piss of us drinking tea...would I be offended by that...of course not!
Imagine a black African multi millionaire posting an image of the white English players with booze and passed out love island slags photoshopped around them, with the caption “didn’t know you could play football when lying around pissed and getting into fights”. That’s probably a bit closer than drinking fucking tea ffs.0 -
very good.DaveMehmet said:
How?lolwray said:
incidentally are you a native american indian ?Redskin said:Do Senagalese men sell sunglasses from a blanket?
a) They did on a beach I went to once
b) Now they are unfettered of the Imperialist yoke, they are free to trade in a consumer market
c) Does it matter?
Is a photoshop of the Senegalese football team selling sunglasses from a blanket funny?
a) My Senagalese mate at work loved it
b) Jokes directed at POC is stealth racism
c) Not really
If the English football team were photoshopped wearing pith helmets and loading African slaves onto a ship, would it be racist?
a) Has Diane Abbott done this?
b) Considering the white players' ancestors were probably complicit in the slave trade - no
c) Yes...no...don't really care
Mostly a) You're racist
Mostly b) You're not racist
Mostly c) You're indifferent to an old man's tweets
can you give us a view from that perspective as we havent covered it ?0 -
and me, what sort of mook drinks carling?masicat said:This offended me.
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Nor is Black Africans selling cheap stuff, making money and white English players with booze and passed out love island slags photoshopped around them.kentaddick said:
Drinking tea and selling counterfeit goods are nowhere near the same thing.DiscoCAFC said:Alan Sugar was a idiot posting this picture in the first place as he should know that some people will have no better things to do in their lives and get upset by it. It was a joke by Alan and it's nothing offensive by that at all.
A lot of African's around Spain do sell cheap watches and all that and if some African took the piss of us drinking tea...would I be offended by that...of course not!
Imagine a black African multi millionaire posting an image of the white English players with booze and passed out love island slags photoshopped around them, with the caption “didn’t know you could play football when lying around pissed and getting into fights”. That’s probably a bit closer than drinking fucking tea ffs.
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Well, you're admitting that there is a difference between drinking tea and selling counterfeit sunglasses, my comparison was to draw you to the idea that sugar's tweet was a negative stereotype of black people, africa is a giant continent with hundreds of millions in population and yet a few blokes with very dark skin tones MUST be the same kind of people that sell sunglasses where you go on holiday cos obviously "black africans do that" apparently.DiscoCAFC said:
Nor is Black Africans selling cheap stuff, making money and white English players with booze and passed out love island slags photoshopped around them.kentaddick said:
Drinking tea and selling counterfeit goods are nowhere near the same thing.DiscoCAFC said:Alan Sugar was a idiot posting this picture in the first place as he should know that some people will have no better things to do in their lives and get upset by it. It was a joke by Alan and it's nothing offensive by that at all.
A lot of African's around Spain do sell cheap watches and all that and if some African took the piss of us drinking tea...would I be offended by that...of course not!
Imagine a black African multi millionaire posting an image of the white English players with booze and passed out love island slags photoshopped around them, with the caption “didn’t know you could play football when lying around pissed and getting into fights”. That’s probably a bit closer than drinking fucking tea ffs.3 -
Lord Sir Alan deserves to be burnt as a witch. If you disagree with me I denounce you as a witch 'n all.1
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He turned me into a newt.SantaClaus said:Lord Sir Alan deserves to be burnt as a witch. If you disagree with me I denounce you as a witch 'n all.
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