I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
In a similar vein.. Our toolbox talk this morning descended into who's going where for holidays. Present were 1 from Dominican Republic, 1 black British, 1 Romanian and 2 English.
Says the chap from Dominican Republic "you white people really make me laugh, you deliberately go to cold places for holidays " Me. I can't take the sun, i just burn, i'm too fair" Showing them my pure white legs, the 2 black blokes piss themselves laughing saying "you're so fucking white"
I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
In a similar vein.. Our toolbox talk this morning descended into who's going where for holidays. Present were 1 from Dominican Republic, 1 black British, 1 Romanian and 2 English.
Says the chap from Dominican Republic "you white people really make me laugh, you deliberately go to cold places for holidays " Me. I can't take the sun, i just burn, i'm too fair" Showing them my pure white legs, the 2 black blokes piss themselves laughing saying "you're so fucking white"
I see love island was labelled racist yesterday for people using the description as mixed race being a type, non story bit of lighthearted generalisation, as you do get Africans selling sunglasses on beaches in Spain and such, not racist shows what a pc world we now live in.
I don’t know how many things people can be “outraged” about at once, the rise in knife crime, burglaries going up, shit trains - no let’s focus on alan sugar tweeting about lookie lookie men.
I couldn't disagree more, I feel this is a very racist tweet. He's clearly saying they all look the same and stereotyping black Africans IMO
are you a black african? if so how does it make you feel if not how do you know how a black african feels.
i know we have got irish posters on here so will use that as an example, being part Irish i don't get upset when people say they'll be too pissed to do it or there out crazy paving or things to that affect. equally my grandad was a glasgow man i regularly make jokes about them being tight.
its light humour - the aim isnt to upset people, as above bit different saying it to your mates down the pub not on twitter with millions of followers and once its out there there is no deleting.
I feel that comments like this from English people show how little regard they have for the Irish people. I'm not upset by them as such, but it shows that we are considered a punch line rather than equals. We are looked down upon by a significant portion of English. It doesn't have any real effect on my day to day life but I feel it is a contributing factor to the current stalled brexit discussions over the Irish/UK border. Theres a sense of sure Ireland will back down to the might British people and give us what we want in the end. Or how dare they be so uppity, don't they know their place?
It was only a matter of weeks ago when ENGLISH folks were donating and sharing links on social media to help fund their Irish colleagues and friends get home to vote. So yeah, you're clearly right, we are such an intolerant, arrogant, irish-hating lot over here....
Again, you are assuming I think all English hate or look down upon the Irish. I have said multiple times that is not what I believe.
A fair assumption considering you wrote the following only a matter of hours ago....
We are looked down upon by a significant portion of English.
I see love island was labelled racist yesterday for people using the description as mixed race being a type, non story bit of lighthearted generalisation, as you do get Africans selling sunglasses on beaches in Spain and such, not racist shows what a pc world we now live in.
I don’t know how many things people can be “outraged” about at once, the rise in knife crime, burglaries going up, shit trains - no let’s focus on alan sugar tweeting about lookie lookie men.
I couldn't disagree more, I feel this is a very racist tweet. He's clearly saying they all look the same and stereotyping black Africans IMO
are you a black african? if so how does it make you feel if not how do you know how a black african feels.
i know we have got irish posters on here so will use that as an example, being part Irish i don't get upset when people say they'll be too pissed to do it or there out crazy paving or things to that affect. equally my grandad was a glasgow man i regularly make jokes about them being tight.
its light humour - the aim isnt to upset people, as above bit different saying it to your mates down the pub not on twitter with millions of followers and once its out there there is no deleting.
Humour? What was even slightly comical about Sugar's post though.
Are you disagreeing that Sugar was saying they all look the same? I think he was saying that and I think that's a disrespectful thing to do.
Jokes about stereotypes are very common, I accept that, but I personally think this was unfunny and unnecessary.
I can't see where Sugar implies they all look the same? Sounds like your own thoughts coming out there.
I don't think it's a funny tweet either.
The offence in my eyes is disrepecting the Senegal players quality, implying that they are so shit they would normally be selling sunglasses on a beach in Spain rather than playing at a world cup.
Possibly, most certainly just my take on it but when I read it I instantly though Sugar was saying they looked liked those who were selling sunglasses.
I also agree that it was disrespectful to their quality. I mean he's a Tottenham fan and I am sure he doesn't mind Wanyama playing for them.
I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
I hope you told them you were making tea and crumpets for their mums.
I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
I get where you're coming from. Even I'm happy when people take the piss about me being Chinese, but here's the key - it's an established rapport we have.
Alan Sugar - I presume - has no connection to the Senegal squad, which means this is bizarre casual racism.
Moreover, the power dynamics in play in these comparisons aren't that comparable:
1) You're in a setting amongst peers. You're probably equally as likely to joke about Americans, I dunno, shooting guns and worshipping bald eagles, as they are about Brits and tea and crumpets.
2) It's less offensive because this sort of stereotyping isn't demeaning. Equating all Senegalese people to those dudes who sell tat on beaches on the European continent, however, is. It's very unhelpful, because that's the only experience a lot of people have of African migrants to Spain/wherever, and quite often that brings negative connotations (pushy sales guys etc), which increases tensions. Someone with a better handle on migration/socioeconomic dynamics might be able to articulate this better than I.
3) Ah, yes, I've finally come to it. The "race card". You'll have to excuse me, as this will be very long-winded.
Yes, it's problematic that a white person* is saying this about black people. You don't have to look far back in history to recount innumerable instances of oppression facing black people. It still happens today (in America, with voting/gerrymandering; in Russia - need I explain? and even in the UK, where the Windrush scandal is disgraceful). (Thankfully, these such instances are on the wane.)
The historical power of white peoples over black peoples in the Western world means this sort of "joke" carries more weight than it would the other way around. Put simply, the power dynamic is in full effect here. Because non-white people have been exposed to it so fucking often, and it *actually* affects what happens to us (and yes, it's affected me in various ways), white-on-PoC jibes are that bit more serious than the other way around.
I personally wouldn't go so far as to say I've been systematically oppressed, but the sense of "other" people make me feel regularly isn't nice. I cannot imagine what it would be like if I didn't have an obvious English accent. I know PoC who feel as if they have been subject to systematic oppression, and I am not going to attempt to refute that.
Anyway. The crux of this point is - racism has more significance when it comes from a position of historical and, some might argue, systemic power.
*I realise Alan Sugar is of Russian/Polish Jewish extraction. That actually makes him quite hypocritical, given how rightly vocal he is about anti-Semitism.
---------------------------
I hope those of you who aren't PoC can at least see where I'm coming from. And I don't mean to be patronising, I don't mean to be wailing "oh poor me", I'm just trying to explain why this is just as big a deal as people are making it out to be, from my perspective (and I suspect the perspective of many other PoC).
I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
I get where you're coming from. Even I'm happy when people take the piss about me being Chinese, but here's the key - it's an established rapport we have.
Alan Sugar - I presume - has no connection to the Senegal squad, which means this is bizarre casual racism.
Moreover, the power dynamics in play in these comparisons aren't that comparable:
1) You're in a setting amongst peers. You're probably equally as likely to joke about Americans, I dunno, shooting guns and worshipping bald eagles, as they are about Brits and tea and crumpets.
2) It's less offensive because this sort of stereotyping isn't demeaning. Equating all Senegalese people to those dudes who sell tat on beaches on the European continent, however, is. It's very unhelpful, because that's the only experience a lot of people have of African migrants to Spain/wherever, and quite often that brings negative connotations (pushy sales guys etc), which increases tensions. Someone with a better handle on migration/socioeconomic dynamics might be able to articulate this better than I.
3) Ah, yes, I've finally come to it. The "race card". You'll have to excuse me, as this will be very long-winded.
Yes, it's problematic that a white person* is saying this about black people. You don't have to look far back in history to recount innumerable instances of oppression facing black people. It still happens today (in America, with voting/gerrymandering; in Russia - need I explain? and even in the UK, where the Windrush scandal is disgraceful). (Thankfully, these such instances are on the wane.)
The historical power of white peoples over black peoples in the Western world means this sort of "joke" carries more weight than it would the other way around. Put simply, the power dynamic is in full effect here. Because non-white people have been exposed to it so fucking often, and it *actually* affects what happens to us (and yes, it's affected me in various ways), white-on-PoC jibes are that bit more serious than the other way around.
I personally wouldn't go so far as to say I've been systematically oppressed, but the sense of "other" people make me feel regularly isn't nice. I cannot imagine what it would be like if I didn't have an obvious English accent. I know PoC who feel as if they have been subject to systematic oppression, and I am not going to attempt to refute that.
Anyway. The crux of this point is - racism has more significance when it comes from a position of historical and, some might argue, systemic power.
*I realise Alan Sugar is of Russian/Polish Jewish extraction. That actually makes him quite hypocritical, given how rightly vocal he is about anti-Semitism.
---------------------------
I hope those of you who aren't PoC can at least see where I'm coming from. And I don't mean to be patronising, I don't mean to be wailing "oh poor me", I'm just trying to explain why this is just as big a deal as people are making it out to be, from my perspective (and I suspect the perspective of many other PoC).
What is funny about it? Unless you like sniggering at the notion that all Africans are beach sellers? Including those Africans that earn money 100k plus a week playing for Everton, Liverpool, Napoli etc....
The worst thing about the tweet was the total lack of humour which displays it's true intent of offense and degradation of an entire nation.
I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
I get where you're coming from. Even I'm happy when people take the piss about me being Chinese, but here's the key - it's an established rapport we have.
Alan Sugar - I presume - has no connection to the Senegal squad, which means this is bizarre casual racism.
Moreover, the power dynamics in play in these comparisons aren't that comparable:
1) You're in a setting amongst peers. You're probably equally as likely to joke about Americans, I dunno, shooting guns and worshipping bald eagles, as they are about Brits and tea and crumpets.
2) It's less offensive because this sort of stereotyping isn't demeaning. Equating all Senegalese people to those dudes who sell tat on beaches on the European continent, however, is. It's very unhelpful, because that's the only experience a lot of people have of African migrants to Spain/wherever, and quite often that brings negative connotations (pushy sales guys etc), which increases tensions. Someone with a better handle on migration/socioeconomic dynamics might be able to articulate this better than I.
3) Ah, yes, I've finally come to it. The "race card". You'll have to excuse me, as this will be very long-winded.
Yes, it's problematic that a white person* is saying this about black people. You don't have to look far back in history to recount innumerable instances of oppression facing black people. It still happens today (in America, with voting/gerrymandering; in Russia - need I explain? and even in the UK, where the Windrush scandal is disgraceful). (Thankfully, these such instances are on the wane.)
The historical power of white peoples over black peoples in the Western world means this sort of "joke" carries more weight than it would the other way around. Put simply, the power dynamic is in full effect here. Because non-white people have been exposed to it so fucking often, and it *actually* affects what happens to us (and yes, it's affected me in various ways), white-on-PoC jibes are that bit more serious than the other way around.
I personally wouldn't go so far as to say I've been systematically oppressed, but the sense of "other" people make me feel regularly isn't nice. I cannot imagine what it would be like if I didn't have an obvious English accent. I know PoC who feel as if they have been subject to systematic oppression, and I am not going to attempt to refute that.
Anyway. The crux of this point is - racism has more significance when it comes from a position of historical and, some might argue, systemic power.
*I realise Alan Sugar is of Russian/Polish Jewish extraction. That actually makes him quite hypocritical, given how rightly vocal he is about anti-Semitism.
---------------------------
I hope those of you who aren't PoC can at least see where I'm coming from. And I don't mean to be patronising, I don't mean to be wailing "oh poor me", I'm just trying to explain why this is just as big a deal as people are making it out to be, from my perspective (and I suspect the perspective of many other PoC).
Leaving aside "white" Americans, Brits and Russians for a minute -
What about the racism that exists between black Africans from various parts of that Continent and also the same between people from different parts of Asia? Both of which is rife and where you'll still find slavery in it's worse form in existence today, often split between races.
I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
I get where you're coming from. Even I'm happy when people take the piss about me being Chinese, but here's the key - it's an established rapport we have.
Alan Sugar - I presume - has no connection to the Senegal squad, which means this is bizarre casual racism.
Moreover, the power dynamics in play in these comparisons aren't that comparable:
1) You're in a setting amongst peers. You're probably equally as likely to joke about Americans, I dunno, shooting guns and worshipping bald eagles, as they are about Brits and tea and crumpets.
2) It's less offensive because this sort of stereotyping isn't demeaning. Equating all Senegalese people to those dudes who sell tat on beaches on the European continent, however, is. It's very unhelpful, because that's the only experience a lot of people have of African migrants to Spain/wherever, and quite often that brings negative connotations (pushy sales guys etc), which increases tensions. Someone with a better handle on migration/socioeconomic dynamics might be able to articulate this better than I.
3) Ah, yes, I've finally come to it. The "race card". You'll have to excuse me, as this will be very long-winded.
Yes, it's problematic that a white person* is saying this about black people. You don't have to look far back in history to recount innumerable instances of oppression facing black people. It still happens today (in America, with voting/gerrymandering; in Russia - need I explain? and even in the UK, where the Windrush scandal is disgraceful). (Thankfully, these such instances are on the wane.)
The historical power of white peoples over black peoples in the Western world means this sort of "joke" carries more weight than it would the other way around. Put simply, the power dynamic is in full effect here. Because non-white people have been exposed to it so fucking often, and it *actually* affects what happens to us (and yes, it's affected me in various ways), white-on-PoC jibes are that bit more serious than the other way around.
I personally wouldn't go so far as to say I've been systematically oppressed, but the sense of "other" people make me feel regularly isn't nice. I cannot imagine what it would be like if I didn't have an obvious English accent. I know PoC who feel as if they have been subject to systematic oppression, and I am not going to attempt to refute that.
Anyway. The crux of this point is - racism has more significance when it comes from a position of historical and, some might argue, systemic power.
*I realise Alan Sugar is of Russian/Polish Jewish extraction. That actually makes him quite hypocritical, given how rightly vocal he is about anti-Semitism.
---------------------------
I hope those of you who aren't PoC can at least see where I'm coming from. And I don't mean to be patronising, I don't mean to be wailing "oh poor me", I'm just trying to explain why this is just as big a deal as people are making it out to be, from my perspective (and I suspect the perspective of many other PoC).
Have another quote as this is a brilliant post which by acknowleding world history lays an outline for a brighter future for all.
What is funny about it? Unless you like sniggering at the notion that all Africans are beach sellers? Including those Africans that earn money 100k plus a week playing for Everton, Liverpool, Napoli etc....
The worst thing about the tweet was the total lack of humour which displays it's true intent of offense and degradation of an entire nation.
I didn’t find it particularly funny.....but do you really believe that Sugar’s intention was the “offense and degradation of an entire nation”?
I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
I get where you're coming from. Even I'm happy when people take the piss about me being Chinese, but here's the key - it's an established rapport we have.
Alan Sugar - I presume - has no connection to the Senegal squad, which means this is bizarre casual racism.
Moreover, the power dynamics in play in these comparisons aren't that comparable:
1) You're in a setting amongst peers. You're probably equally as likely to joke about Americans, I dunno, shooting guns and worshipping bald eagles, as they are about Brits and tea and crumpets.
2) It's less offensive because this sort of stereotyping isn't demeaning. Equating all Senegalese people to those dudes who sell tat on beaches on the European continent, however, is. It's very unhelpful, because that's the only experience a lot of people have of African migrants to Spain/wherever, and quite often that brings negative connotations (pushy sales guys etc), which increases tensions. Someone with a better handle on migration/socioeconomic dynamics might be able to articulate this better than I.
3) Ah, yes, I've finally come to it. The "race card". You'll have to excuse me, as this will be very long-winded.
Yes, it's problematic that a white person* is saying this about black people. You don't have to look far back in history to recount innumerable instances of oppression facing black people. It still happens today (in America, with voting/gerrymandering; in Russia - need I explain? and even in the UK, where the Windrush scandal is disgraceful). (Thankfully, these such instances are on the wane.)
The historical power of white peoples over black peoples in the Western world means this sort of "joke" carries more weight than it would the other way around. Put simply, the power dynamic is in full effect here. Because non-white people have been exposed to it so fucking often, and it *actually* affects what happens to us (and yes, it's affected me in various ways), white-on-PoC jibes are that bit more serious than the other way around.
I personally wouldn't go so far as to say I've been systematically oppressed, but the sense of "other" people make me feel regularly isn't nice. I cannot imagine what it would be like if I didn't have an obvious English accent. I know PoC who feel as if they have been subject to systematic oppression, and I am not going to attempt to refute that.
Anyway. The crux of this point is - racism has more significance when it comes from a position of historical and, some might argue, systemic power.
*I realise Alan Sugar is of Russian/Polish Jewish extraction. That actually makes him quite hypocritical, given how rightly vocal he is about anti-Semitism.
---------------------------
I hope those of you who aren't PoC can at least see where I'm coming from. And I don't mean to be patronising, I don't mean to be wailing "oh poor me", I'm just trying to explain why this is just as big a deal as people are making it out to be, from my perspective (and I suspect the perspective of many other PoC).
Leaving aside "white" Americans, Brits and Russians for a minute -
What about the racism that exists between black Africans from various parts of that Continent and also the same between people from different parts of Asia? Both of which is rife and where you'll still find slavery in it's worse form in existence today, often split between races.
Also horrendous. To name but a few examples:
- Treatment of Rohingya Muslims by the Burmese - Mutual Chinese-Japanese enmity (perhaps more historical than racial, but still) - Chinese views on black people - Pretty much the entire slave trade in the Sahel/sub-Saharan Africa - Indian caste system (not sure how racial this is to be fair) - Skin lightening treatments being widespread in the Far East (so it looks like you've not been in the sun i.e. not been labouring on a farm etc)
-------------------------
So yes, I'm aware of this. And it's horrendous. But given the socioeconomic and political influences predominantly Western/"white" countries wield, forgive my focus on race being white-on-PoC rather than PoC-on-PoC racism.
What is funny about it? Unless you like sniggering at the notion that all Africans are beach sellers? Including those Africans that earn money 100k plus a week playing for Everton, Liverpool, Napoli etc....
The worst thing about the tweet was the total lack of humour which displays it's true intent of offense and degradation of an entire nation.
I didn’t find it particularly funny.....but do you really believe that Sugar’s intention was the “offense and degradation of an entire nation”?
Yeah maybe a bit OTT but I just think we are in the middle of a World Cup that is supposed to be about bringing cultures together by celebrating national identify through the medium of sport.
Can just imagine the reaction in Senegal. "Peer of the realm says all Senegalese are beach sellers"
Just find it totally offensive and unfunny.
He should know a whole lot better. As a peer he represents the country and he has just fooked up royally.
I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
very different. Can hardly say eating tea and crumpets is a negative stereotype. Sugar's implication is they're all peddlers of fake sunglasses and generally low level criminals and/or very poor like you see in holiday destinations in europe.
I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
I get where you're coming from. Even I'm happy when people take the piss about me being Chinese, but here's the key - it's an established rapport we have.
Alan Sugar - I presume - has no connection to the Senegal squad, which means this is bizarre casual racism.
Moreover, the power dynamics in play in these comparisons aren't that comparable:
1) You're in a setting amongst peers. You're probably equally as likely to joke about Americans, I dunno, shooting guns and worshipping bald eagles, as they are about Brits and tea and crumpets.
2) It's less offensive because this sort of stereotyping isn't demeaning. Equating all Senegalese people to those dudes who sell tat on beaches on the European continent, however, is. It's very unhelpful, because that's the only experience a lot of people have of African migrants to Spain/wherever, and quite often that brings negative connotations (pushy sales guys etc), which increases tensions. Someone with a better handle on migration/socioeconomic dynamics might be able to articulate this better than I.
3) Ah, yes, I've finally come to it. The "race card". You'll have to excuse me, as this will be very long-winded.
Yes, it's problematic that a white person* is saying this about black people. You don't have to look far back in history to recount innumerable instances of oppression facing black people. It still happens today (in America, with voting/gerrymandering; in Russia - need I explain? and even in the UK, where the Windrush scandal is disgraceful). (Thankfully, these such instances are on the wane.)
The historical power of white peoples over black peoples in the Western world means this sort of "joke" carries more weight than it would the other way around. Put simply, the power dynamic is in full effect here. Because non-white people have been exposed to it so fucking often, and it *actually* affects what happens to us (and yes, it's affected me in various ways), white-on-PoC jibes are that bit more serious than the other way around.
I personally wouldn't go so far as to say I've been systematically oppressed, but the sense of "other" people make me feel regularly isn't nice. I cannot imagine what it would be like if I didn't have an obvious English accent. I know PoC who feel as if they have been subject to systematic oppression, and I am not going to attempt to refute that.
Anyway. The crux of this point is - racism has more significance when it comes from a position of historical and, some might argue, systemic power.
*I realise Alan Sugar is of Russian/Polish Jewish extraction. That actually makes him quite hypocritical, given how rightly vocal he is about anti-Semitism.
---------------------------
I hope those of you who aren't PoC can at least see where I'm coming from. And I don't mean to be patronising, I don't mean to be wailing "oh poor me", I'm just trying to explain why this is just as big a deal as people are making it out to be, from my perspective (and I suspect the perspective of many other PoC).
You make some very valid points, may I ask, are you Irish as well?
I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
I get where you're coming from. Even I'm happy when people take the piss about me being Chinese, but here's the key - it's an established rapport we have.
Alan Sugar - I presume - has no connection to the Senegal squad, which means this is bizarre casual racism.
Moreover, the power dynamics in play in these comparisons aren't that comparable:
1) You're in a setting amongst peers. You're probably equally as likely to joke about Americans, I dunno, shooting guns and worshipping bald eagles, as they are about Brits and tea and crumpets.
2) It's less offensive because this sort of stereotyping isn't demeaning. Equating all Senegalese people to those dudes who sell tat on beaches on the European continent, however, is. It's very unhelpful, because that's the only experience a lot of people have of African migrants to Spain/wherever, and quite often that brings negative connotations (pushy sales guys etc), which increases tensions. Someone with a better handle on migration/socioeconomic dynamics might be able to articulate this better than I.
3) Ah, yes, I've finally come to it. The "race card". You'll have to excuse me, as this will be very long-winded.
Yes, it's problematic that a white person* is saying this about black people. You don't have to look far back in history to recount innumerable instances of oppression facing black people. It still happens today (in America, with voting/gerrymandering; in Russia - need I explain? and even in the UK, where the Windrush scandal is disgraceful). (Thankfully, these such instances are on the wane.)
The historical power of white peoples over black peoples in the Western world means this sort of "joke" carries more weight than it would the other way around. Put simply, the power dynamic is in full effect here. Because non-white people have been exposed to it so fucking often, and it *actually* affects what happens to us (and yes, it's affected me in various ways), white-on-PoC jibes are that bit more serious than the other way around.
I personally wouldn't go so far as to say I've been systematically oppressed, but the sense of "other" people make me feel regularly isn't nice. I cannot imagine what it would be like if I didn't have an obvious English accent. I know PoC who feel as if they have been subject to systematic oppression, and I am not going to attempt to refute that.
Anyway. The crux of this point is - racism has more significance when it comes from a position of historical and, some might argue, systemic power.
*I realise Alan Sugar is of Russian/Polish Jewish extraction. That actually makes him quite hypocritical, given how rightly vocal he is about anti-Semitism.
---------------------------
I hope those of you who aren't PoC can at least see where I'm coming from. And I don't mean to be patronising, I don't mean to be wailing "oh poor me", I'm just trying to explain why this is just as big a deal as people are making it out to be, from my perspective (and I suspect the perspective of many other PoC).
You make some very valid points, may I ask, are you Irish as well?
By heritage yes, though only the name gives it away (Patrick).
I see love island was labelled racist yesterday for people using the description as mixed race being a type, non story bit of lighthearted generalisation, as you do get Africans selling sunglasses on beaches in Spain and such, not racist shows what a pc world we now live in.
I don’t know how many things people can be “outraged” about at once, the rise in knife crime, burglaries going up, shit trains - no let’s focus on alan sugar tweeting about lookie lookie men.
I couldn't disagree more, I feel this is a very racist tweet. He's clearly saying they all look the same and stereotyping black Africans IMO
are you a black african? if so how does it make you feel if not how do you know how a black african feels.
i know we have got irish posters on here so will use that as an example, being part Irish i don't get upset when people say they'll be too pissed to do it or there out crazy paving or things to that affect. equally my grandad was a glasgow man i regularly make jokes about them being tight.
its light humour - the aim isnt to upset people, as above bit different saying it to your mates down the pub not on twitter with millions of followers and once its out there there is no deleting.
I feel that comments like this from English people show how little regard they have for the Irish people. I'm not upset by them as such, but it shows that we are considered a punch line rather than equals. We are looked down upon by a significant portion of English. It doesn't have any real effect on my day to day life but I feel it is a contributing factor to the current stalled brexit discussions over the Irish/UK border. Theres a sense of sure Ireland will back down to the might British people and give us what we want in the end. Or how dare they be so uppity, don't they know their place?
just for a bit of background on myself ( seeing as you dont know me), my gf of 5 years is from westmeath, both of my grandparents and mother are from cork.
and believe me the irish give as good as they get there was 20,000 in france shouting fuck the queen and quite a few shouting up the ra - which i genuinely hope was done in jest and more than likely was.
also just in your post you call us english and british? i consider myself english ta as i feel no affiliation to scotland wales or ulster
A post full of whataboutery and "sure my best friend is..."
Irish people may not like the Queen or the royal family with good reason (and I assure you there is virtually no real support for the IRA in Ireland so any up the RA shouts would be in jest). We don't however think we are better than the English or British. We also wlecomed your Queen to our country in recent years and Prince Charles was in my home town last week. No one really bothered to show up but they were welcomed, though some weren't happy to see the Union Flag on City hall but thats just protocol and they need to grow up.
As for your English/British comment? Really? You have an issue with that? Maybe you are an exception but I don't see the people of England stiving to give Scotland their independence. Though it seems many are ready to discard Northern Ireland in the name of convenience.
My general point is that jokes like this show an underlying prejudice against a people or nation. They are mostly harmless and I'm not for a minute suggesting that you have n issue with the Irish but the evidence is there that your nation as a whole thinks there is more truth behind these jokes than they let on. Perhaps Sugar has let on his underlying prejudice here. Or perhaps its just a crappy joke.
Not really about whatabouterry was just giving you a bit of background but as your so arrogant feck ya, why support an English football team when you have your own?
As your happy to call me British maybe I should refer to Ireland as Southern Ireland I presume you would be fine with that?.
You can't find being called British objectionable because you're English. I'm English, and I don't find it objectionable. My girlfriend's English, too. My parents are also English, as were my grandparents.
I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
I get where you're coming from. Even I'm happy when people take the piss about me being Chinese, but here's the key - it's an established rapport we have.
Alan Sugar - I presume - has no connection to the Senegal squad, which means this is bizarre casual racism.
Moreover, the power dynamics in play in these comparisons aren't that comparable:
1) You're in a setting amongst peers. You're probably equally as likely to joke about Americans, I dunno, shooting guns and worshipping bald eagles, as they are about Brits and tea and crumpets.
2) It's less offensive because this sort of stereotyping isn't demeaning. Equating all Senegalese people to those dudes who sell tat on beaches on the European continent, however, is. It's very unhelpful, because that's the only experience a lot of people have of African migrants to Spain/wherever, and quite often that brings negative connotations (pushy sales guys etc), which increases tensions. Someone with a better handle on migration/socioeconomic dynamics might be able to articulate this better than I.
3) Ah, yes, I've finally come to it. The "race card". You'll have to excuse me, as this will be very long-winded.
Yes, it's problematic that a white person* is saying this about black people. You don't have to look far back in history to recount innumerable instances of oppression facing black people. It still happens today (in America, with voting/gerrymandering; in Russia - need I explain? and even in the UK, where the Windrush scandal is disgraceful). (Thankfully, these such instances are on the wane.)
The historical power of white peoples over black peoples in the Western world means this sort of "joke" carries more weight than it would the other way around. Put simply, the power dynamic is in full effect here. Because non-white people have been exposed to it so fucking often, and it *actually* affects what happens to us (and yes, it's affected me in various ways), white-on-PoC jibes are that bit more serious than the other way around.
I personally wouldn't go so far as to say I've been systematically oppressed, but the sense of "other" people make me feel regularly isn't nice. I cannot imagine what it would be like if I didn't have an obvious English accent. I know PoC who feel as if they have been subject to systematic oppression, and I am not going to attempt to refute that.
Anyway. The crux of this point is - racism has more significance when it comes from a position of historical and, some might argue, systemic power.
*I realise Alan Sugar is of Russian/Polish Jewish extraction. That actually makes him quite hypocritical, given how rightly vocal he is about anti-Semitism.
---------------------------
I hope those of you who aren't PoC can at least see where I'm coming from. And I don't mean to be patronising, I don't mean to be wailing "oh poor me", I'm just trying to explain why this is just as big a deal as people are making it out to be, from my perspective (and I suspect the perspective of many other PoC).
You make some very valid points, may I ask, are you Irish as well?
By heritage yes, though only the name gives it away (Patrick).
The only reason I ask is that Irish people could take exception to seeing Paddy as a username, as Paddy can be seen as derogatory to the Irish community, ultimately I guess we all have to think twice for fear of offending.
I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
I get where you're coming from. Even I'm happy when people take the piss about me being Chinese, but here's the key - it's an established rapport we have.
Alan Sugar - I presume - has no connection to the Senegal squad, which means this is bizarre casual racism.
Moreover, the power dynamics in play in these comparisons aren't that comparable:
1) You're in a setting amongst peers. You're probably equally as likely to joke about Americans, I dunno, shooting guns and worshipping bald eagles, as they are about Brits and tea and crumpets.
2) It's less offensive because this sort of stereotyping isn't demeaning. Equating all Senegalese people to those dudes who sell tat on beaches on the European continent, however, is. It's very unhelpful, because that's the only experience a lot of people have of African migrants to Spain/wherever, and quite often that brings negative connotations (pushy sales guys etc), which increases tensions. Someone with a better handle on migration/socioeconomic dynamics might be able to articulate this better than I.
3) Ah, yes, I've finally come to it. The "race card". You'll have to excuse me, as this will be very long-winded.
Yes, it's problematic that a white person* is saying this about black people. You don't have to look far back in history to recount innumerable instances of oppression facing black people. It still happens today (in America, with voting/gerrymandering; in Russia - need I explain? and even in the UK, where the Windrush scandal is disgraceful). (Thankfully, these such instances are on the wane.)
The historical power of white peoples over black peoples in the Western world means this sort of "joke" carries more weight than it would the other way around. Put simply, the power dynamic is in full effect here. Because non-white people have been exposed to it so fucking often, and it *actually* affects what happens to us (and yes, it's affected me in various ways), white-on-PoC jibes are that bit more serious than the other way around.
I personally wouldn't go so far as to say I've been systematically oppressed, but the sense of "other" people make me feel regularly isn't nice. I cannot imagine what it would be like if I didn't have an obvious English accent. I know PoC who feel as if they have been subject to systematic oppression, and I am not going to attempt to refute that.
Anyway. The crux of this point is - racism has more significance when it comes from a position of historical and, some might argue, systemic power.
*I realise Alan Sugar is of Russian/Polish Jewish extraction. That actually makes him quite hypocritical, given how rightly vocal he is about anti-Semitism.
---------------------------
I hope those of you who aren't PoC can at least see where I'm coming from. And I don't mean to be patronising, I don't mean to be wailing "oh poor me", I'm just trying to explain why this is just as big a deal as people are making it out to be, from my perspective (and I suspect the perspective of many other PoC).
You make some very valid points, may I ask, are you Irish as well?
By heritage yes, though only the name gives it away (Patrick).
The only reason I ask is that Irish people could take exception to seeing Paddy as a username, as Paddy can be seen as derogatory to the Irish community, ultimately I guess we all have to think twice for fear of offending.
Quite.
I'm working on getting my passport via Seth, who is half-Irish and indeed holds an Irish passport.
Equally, as Paddy is commonly a diminutive of Patrick (well, properly, probably of Padraig), I would think and hope I have the right to go by Paddy, as I do in everyday life as well as online.
I see love island was labelled racist yesterday for people using the description as mixed race being a type, non story bit of lighthearted generalisation, as you do get Africans selling sunglasses on beaches in Spain and such, not racist shows what a pc world we now live in.
I don’t know how many things people can be “outraged” about at once, the rise in knife crime, burglaries going up, shit trains - no let’s focus on alan sugar tweeting about lookie lookie men.
I couldn't disagree more, I feel this is a very racist tweet. He's clearly saying they all look the same and stereotyping black Africans IMO
are you a black african? if so how does it make you feel if not how do you know how a black african feels.
i know we have got irish posters on here so will use that as an example, being part Irish i don't get upset when people say they'll be too pissed to do it or there out crazy paving or things to that affect. equally my grandad was a glasgow man i regularly make jokes about them being tight.
its light humour - the aim isnt to upset people, as above bit different saying it to your mates down the pub not on twitter with millions of followers and once its out there there is no deleting.
I feel that comments like this from English people show how little regard they have for the Irish people. I'm not upset by them as such, but it shows that we are considered a punch line rather than equals. We are looked down upon by a significant portion of English. It doesn't have any real effect on my day to day life but I feel it is a contributing factor to the current stalled brexit discussions over the Irish/UK border. Theres a sense of sure Ireland will back down to the might British people and give us what we want in the end. Or how dare they be so uppity, don't they know their place?
just for a bit of background on myself ( seeing as you dont know me), my gf of 5 years is from westmeath, both of my grandparents and mother are from cork.
and believe me the irish give as good as they get there was 20,000 in france shouting fuck the queen and quite a few shouting up the ra - which i genuinely hope was done in jest and more than likely was.
also just in your post you call us english and british? i consider myself english ta as i feel no affiliation to scotland wales or ulster
A post full of whataboutery and "sure my best friend is..."
Irish people may not like the Queen or the royal family with good reason (and I assure you there is virtually no real support for the IRA in Ireland so any up the RA shouts would be in jest). We don't however think we are better than the English or British. We also wlecomed your Queen to our country in recent years and Prince Charles was in my home town last week. No one really bothered to show up but they were welcomed, though some weren't happy to see the Union Flag on City hall but thats just protocol and they need to grow up.
As for your English/British comment? Really? You have an issue with that? Maybe you are an exception but I don't see the people of England stiving to give Scotland their independence. Though it seems many are ready to discard Northern Ireland in the name of convenience.
My general point is that jokes like this show an underlying prejudice against a people or nation. They are mostly harmless and I'm not for a minute suggesting that you have n issue with the Irish but the evidence is there that your nation as a whole thinks there is more truth behind these jokes than they let on. Perhaps Sugar has let on his underlying prejudice here. Or perhaps its just a crappy joke.
Not really about whatabouterry was just giving you a bit of background but as your so arrogant feck ya, why support an English football team when you have your own?
As your happy to call me British maybe I should refer to Ireland as Southern Ireland I presume you would be fine with that?.
You can't find being called British objectionable because you're English. I'm English, and I don't find it objectionable. My girlfriend's English, too. My parents are also English, as were my grandparents.
I don't think you can tell anyone what they can or cant object to, actually.
Whether or not it's racist (and I believe it is), what it definitely is is a blatant belittling of the Senegalese team, who beat a better team than we did, more convincingly. Would he have posted a meme of the England team, saying he recognised some of them from being drunk and pissing in the street in benidorm? That would be stupid and unfunny right?
I work with a lot of Americans. Quite often they will mimick my British accent and say things like “Are you spending the weekend making tea and crumpets?”
Stereotypical based jokes. I don’t take offence at it. Is it drastically different from what’s happened here?
I get where you're coming from. Even I'm happy when people take the piss about me being Chinese, but here's the key - it's an established rapport we have.
Alan Sugar - I presume - has no connection to the Senegal squad, which means this is bizarre casual racism.
Moreover, the power dynamics in play in these comparisons aren't that comparable:
1) You're in a setting amongst peers. You're probably equally as likely to joke about Americans, I dunno, shooting guns and worshipping bald eagles, as they are about Brits and tea and crumpets.
2) It's less offensive because this sort of stereotyping isn't demeaning. Equating all Senegalese people to those dudes who sell tat on beaches on the European continent, however, is. It's very unhelpful, because that's the only experience a lot of people have of African migrants to Spain/wherever, and quite often that brings negative connotations (pushy sales guys etc), which increases tensions. Someone with a better handle on migration/socioeconomic dynamics might be able to articulate this better than I.
3) Ah, yes, I've finally come to it. The "race card". You'll have to excuse me, as this will be very long-winded.
Yes, it's problematic that a white person* is saying this about black people. You don't have to look far back in history to recount innumerable instances of oppression facing black people. It still happens today (in America, with voting/gerrymandering; in Russia - need I explain? and even in the UK, where the Windrush scandal is disgraceful). (Thankfully, these such instances are on the wane.)
The historical power of white peoples over black peoples in the Western world means this sort of "joke" carries more weight than it would the other way around. Put simply, the power dynamic is in full effect here. Because non-white people have been exposed to it so fucking often, and it *actually* affects what happens to us (and yes, it's affected me in various ways), white-on-PoC jibes are that bit more serious than the other way around.
I personally wouldn't go so far as to say I've been systematically oppressed, but the sense of "other" people make me feel regularly isn't nice. I cannot imagine what it would be like if I didn't have an obvious English accent. I know PoC who feel as if they have been subject to systematic oppression, and I am not going to attempt to refute that.
Anyway. The crux of this point is - racism has more significance when it comes from a position of historical and, some might argue, systemic power.
*I realise Alan Sugar is of Russian/Polish Jewish extraction. That actually makes him quite hypocritical, given how rightly vocal he is about anti-Semitism.
---------------------------
I hope those of you who aren't PoC can at least see where I'm coming from. And I don't mean to be patronising, I don't mean to be wailing "oh poor me", I'm just trying to explain why this is just as big a deal as people are making it out to be, from my perspective (and I suspect the perspective of many other PoC).
Leaving aside "white" Americans, Brits and Russians for a minute -
What about the racism that exists between black Africans from various parts of that Continent and also the same between people from different parts of Asia? Both of which is rife and where you'll still find slavery in it's worse form in existence today, often split between races.
Also horrendous. To name but a few examples:
- Treatment of Rohingya Muslims by the Burmese - Mutual Chinese-Japanese enmity (perhaps more historical than racial, but still) - Chinese views on black people - Pretty much the entire slave trade in the Sahel/sub-Saharan Africa - Indian caste system (not sure how racial this is to be fair) - Skin lightening treatments being widespread in the Far East (so it looks like you've not been in the sun i.e. not been labouring on a farm etc)
-------------------------
So yes, I'm aware of this. And it's horrendous. But given the socioeconomic and political influences predominantly Western/"white" countries wield, forgive my focus on race being white-on-PoC rather than PoC-on-PoC racism.
Comments
Our toolbox talk this morning descended into who's going where for holidays.
Present were 1 from Dominican Republic, 1 black British, 1 Romanian and 2 English.
Says the chap from Dominican Republic
"you white people really make me laugh, you deliberately go to cold places for holidays "
Me. I can't take the sun, i just burn, i'm too fair"
Showing them my pure white legs, the 2 black blokes piss themselves laughing saying "you're so fucking white"
Naturally i was overcome with offendedness.
Where do you work?
Is there any little ones?
A significant portion /= All.
He is an embarrassment to himself and our country he represents through his knighthood.
Different era, but this latest evidence of insular arrogance is similar to his Carlos Kickaball comments made way back when.
Alan....
You're fired
I also agree that it was disrespectful to their quality. I mean he's a Tottenham fan and I am sure he doesn't mind Wanyama playing for them.
Alan Sugar - I presume - has no connection to the Senegal squad, which means this is bizarre casual racism.
Moreover, the power dynamics in play in these comparisons aren't that comparable:
1) You're in a setting amongst peers. You're probably equally as likely to joke about Americans, I dunno, shooting guns and worshipping bald eagles, as they are about Brits and tea and crumpets.
2) It's less offensive because this sort of stereotyping isn't demeaning. Equating all Senegalese people to those dudes who sell tat on beaches on the European continent, however, is. It's very unhelpful, because that's the only experience a lot of people have of African migrants to Spain/wherever, and quite often that brings negative connotations (pushy sales guys etc), which increases tensions. Someone with a better handle on migration/socioeconomic dynamics might be able to articulate this better than I.
3) Ah, yes, I've finally come to it. The "race card". You'll have to excuse me, as this will be very long-winded.
Yes, it's problematic that a white person* is saying this about black people. You don't have to look far back in history to recount innumerable instances of oppression facing black people. It still happens today (in America, with voting/gerrymandering; in Russia - need I explain? and even in the UK, where the Windrush scandal is disgraceful). (Thankfully, these such instances are on the wane.)
The historical power of white peoples over black peoples in the Western world means this sort of "joke" carries more weight than it would the other way around. Put simply, the power dynamic is in full effect here. Because non-white people have been exposed to it so fucking often, and it *actually* affects what happens to us (and yes, it's affected me in various ways), white-on-PoC jibes are that bit more serious than the other way around.
I personally wouldn't go so far as to say I've been systematically oppressed, but the sense of "other" people make me feel regularly isn't nice. I cannot imagine what it would be like if I didn't have an obvious English accent. I know PoC who feel as if they have been subject to systematic oppression, and I am not going to attempt to refute that.
Anyway. The crux of this point is - racism has more significance when it comes from a position of historical and, some might argue, systemic power.
*I realise Alan Sugar is of Russian/Polish Jewish extraction. That actually makes him quite hypocritical, given how rightly vocal he is about anti-Semitism.
---------------------------
I hope those of you who aren't PoC can at least see where I'm coming from. And I don't mean to be patronising, I don't mean to be wailing "oh poor me", I'm just trying to explain why this is just as big a deal as people are making it out to be, from my perspective (and I suspect the perspective of many other PoC).
The worst thing about the tweet was the total lack of humour which displays it's true intent of offense and degradation of an entire nation.
What about the racism that exists between black Africans from various parts of that Continent and also the same between people from different parts of Asia? Both of which is rife and where you'll still find slavery in it's worse form in existence today, often split between races.
- Treatment of Rohingya Muslims by the Burmese
- Mutual Chinese-Japanese enmity (perhaps more historical than racial, but still)
- Chinese views on black people
- Pretty much the entire slave trade in the Sahel/sub-Saharan Africa
- Indian caste system (not sure how racial this is to be fair)
- Skin lightening treatments being widespread in the Far East (so it looks like you've not been in the sun i.e. not been labouring on a farm etc)
-------------------------
So yes, I'm aware of this. And it's horrendous. But given the socioeconomic and political influences predominantly Western/"white" countries wield, forgive my focus on race being white-on-PoC rather than PoC-on-PoC racism.
Can just imagine the reaction in Senegal. "Peer of the realm says all Senegalese are beach sellers"
Just find it totally offensive and unfunny.
He should know a whole lot better. As a peer he represents the country and he has just fooked up royally.
I'm working on getting my passport via Seth, who is half-Irish and indeed holds an Irish passport.
Equally, as Paddy is commonly a diminutive of Patrick (well, properly, probably of Padraig), I would think and hope I have the right to go by Paddy, as I do in everyday life as well as online.