I have been going to Italy for 50 odd years - all my life basically - and much of that is seeing the real Italy, not the tourist aspects. I would say that Italy was a much more optimistic vibrant place in the 70s. And it has been going downhill since.
Growth is extremely important, but youth unemployment creates despair. We can't go around telling Italians it isn't so bad or even good like the arrogant Cameron and Osborne did during the referendum. If you are working harder for less and your children can't get jobs you are just going to tell politicians to F off! If our government was intelligent - which it obviously isn't - it would be holding meetings with the Italian leadership about how both countries could work together outside of the EU. This would put the wind up the EU and strengthen our negotiating position.
Maybe we should offer to underwrite their debts and let them use the pound ?
Or maybe we should just try to unsettle the EU a bit. As for Prague's theory - linking Italy's problems to organised crime is verging on the ridiculous. What surprised me most when I went to Italy recently was how many Italians were saying well done about Brexit - we need to follow. I told them I didn't support Brexit as it was economic suicide but if people think Italy couldn't leave the EU, I have got the vibe that they really can.
I am a remainer, but one who is critical of the EU. Some remainers try to paint the EU as perfect when it is far from so. I think that lacks credibility. Leaving it is going to make us all poorer - even those who don't think they can get any poorer. That is and always has been the point for me.
Wait, hold up..... you honestly don't think there's a link between Italy's problems and the mafia?
Apologies for saying ridiculous, but whilst there may be an impact, to put all the problems down to this and discounting everything else cannot be correct.
Apologies for saying ridiculous, but whilst there may be an impact, to put all the problems down to this and discounting everything else cannot be correct.
I have never met a uk based Italian who is complimentary about their mother country. I think a lot of them are resentful about being Italian rather than say roman or neapolitan so being heaped as one into the Euro or Europe doesnt sit well.
Most Italians resent Germany.
the Italian relationship with the EU wont end well in my view
I thought Prague did, apologies if I misunderstood.
You could always, you know, re- read a post. I certainly wanted to highlight it, because it never gets talked about. I will try to recall which book it was that opened my eyes to the economic scale ( as opposed to the much portrayed brutuality) of the mafias' operations.
Imagine that 60% of the stuff going in and out of Felixstowe was controlled by organised crime. You can't imagine it, can you? let alone how you might deal with it. But that, according to the book, is the actual situation in Napoli. And that's just the start.
I thought Prague did, apologies if I misunderstood.
You could always, you know, re- read a post. I certainly wanted to highlight it, because it never gets talked about. I will try to recall which book it was that opened my eyes to the economic scale ( as opposed to the much portrayed brutuality) of the mafias' operations.
Imagine that 60% of the stuff going in and out of Felixstowe was controlled by organised crime. You can't imagine it, can you? let alone how you might deal with it. But that, according to the book, is the actual situation in Napoli. And that's just the start.
I will track that book down.
Mafia Republic: Italy's Criminal Curse by John Dickie
To get the best Italian food - go to the small family run cafe or better still have the food of an Italian 'Mama'. If you go by the Italian food you get here, even at the very best establishments it is not the same. Its the freshness of the ingredients and just knowing what works. I had a seafood risotto whilst away that was orgasmic!
If I am eating out in this country, Italian would be behind Asian, but that is because it is not the same here as it is there!
To get the best Italian food - go to the small family run cafe or better still have the food of an Italian 'Mama'. If you go by the Italian food you get here, even at the very best establishments it is not the same. Its the freshness of the ingredients and just knowing what works. I had a seafood risotto whilst away that was orgasmic!
If I am eating out in this country, Italian would be behind Asian, but that is because it is not the same here as it is there!
Yeah, I mean Carbonara made with cream, it's an abomination unto Nuggan, and don't get me started on what passes for pizza in most of this country...
If you order fish and chips and are asked whether you want garden peas of mushy peas it is not the most exciting of decisions that will leave you licking your lips. Peas are just the token bland vegetable that you can spoon down your throat. Then try a pasta dish with a fresh pea sauce in Italy, it might just be the tastiest thing you have ever tasted!
Personally I find Italian food totally overrated. Garlic Olive oil Pasta. Repeat until bored.
If that’s all you’re eating over there you need to branch out.
For me it’s hands down best food in the world. Try their meats, fish, regional delicacies. Coffee, gelato, pastries. The wines with olives for starters. Then the fresh fruit after finished with grappa. Can’t be beaten. I can’t stop eating when out there.
Then the landscape is unbelievable. Especially places like Amalfi, Sorrento, Positano. Absolutely breath taking.
Then the passion for football and the chilled lifestyle. The mopeds zooming around with a cigarette in one hand and their kid on the front with their dog on the back.
The retro buildings and amazing architecture, churches, mountains, cliff fronts, Vesuvius across the water.
Good article that. Was going to recommend it to @Southbank as a kind of laboratory test of the Brexiter's faculties....
It is a good description. However, given that Germany will not forgive the debt and Italy cannot devalue-where does that leave Italy?
It leaves them with a choice: Either continue the Renzi reforms and maintain growth at 1.5% or more which in turn will reduce the debt:GDP ratio and NPL mountain still further. This in turn will help the banks which can then lend more or be acquired by international competitors. They can also play a win:win game with Macron/Merkel to tease out supportive reforms and hard cash to regenerate the South.
Or they can ignore sound macro economic theory and their bargaining position, blame migrants, refugees and Brussels and play a Syriza/Varoufakis game. The difference is that Italy is far bigger than Greece so while Varoufakis went into the room with a gun pointing at his own head, Italy can point a bazooka at the Euro!
No expert on Italy but a brief web search suggests that they are at a crossroads... and will take a decent path? Hard to tell!
It is unclear where things will go next as the Alt-Right have gained 10% in the polls since the March election. Some of this is at the expense of Burlusconi and Forza Italia which is now "gone". This leaves three major parties Cinque Stelle, the League and the PD.
It was the PD who lost 10% at the last election which triggered this shift. Question is whether they can win back any votes? Cinque Stelle (five star movement) are on 33% with the League on 27%. They have a coalition of convenience but one might break free if they can see a route to the magic 40% which puts them in power.
Also note that neither party can openly campaign against the Euro as that would be against the constitution.
People should be aware that Salvini and Di Maio are both linked to Russia and Putin. Salvini of the League has actually signed a formal deal with Putin. Google it if you doubt the veracity of that assertion. Thus Italy could become aligned with Moscow? We live in interesting times.
One thing that might stall proceedings is that much of the €2.3trn national debt is owned by Italians. So the markets may influence events given that crashing out of the Euro will be catastrophic for those holding Italian debt.
Perhaps a variety of factors will steer things to a decent solution? Time will tell!
Good article that. Was going to recommend it to @Southbank as a kind of laboratory test of the Brexiter's faculties....
It is a good description. However, given that Germany will not forgive the debt and Italy cannot devalue-where does that leave Italy?
It leaves them with a choice: Either continue the Renzi reforms and maintain growth at 1.5% or more which in turn will reduce the debt:GDP ratio and NPL mountain still further. This in turn will help the banks which can then lend more or be acquired by international competitors. They can also play a win:win game with Macron/Merkel to tease out supportive reforms and hard cash to regenerate the South.
Or they can ignore sound macro economic theory and their bargaining position, blame migrants, refugees and Brussels and play a Syriza/Varoufakis game. The difference is that Italy is far bigger than Greece so while Varoufakis went into the room with a gun pointing at his own head, Italy can point a bazooka at the Euro!
No expert on Italy but a brief web search suggests that they are at a crossroads... and will take a decent path? Hard to tell!
It is unclear where things will go next as the Alt-Right have gained 10% in the polls since the March election. Some of this is at the expense of Burlusconi and Forza Italia which is now "gone". This leaves three major parties Cinque Stelle, the League and the PD.
It was the PD who lost 10% at the last election which triggered this shift. Question is whether they can win back any votes? Cinque Stelle (five star movement) are on 33% with the League on 27%. They have a coalition of convenience but one might break free if they can see a route to the magic 40% which puts them in power.
Also note that neither party can openly campaign against the Euro as that would be against the constitution.
People should be aware that Salvini and Di Maio are both linked to Russia and Putin. Salvini of the League has actually signed a formal deal with Putin. Google it if you doubt the veracity of that assertion. Thus Italy could become aligned with Moscow? We live in interesting times.
One thing that might stall proceedings is that much of the €2.3trn national debt is owned by Italians. So the markets may influence events given that crashing out of the Euro will be catastrophic for those holding Italian debt.
Perhaps a variety of factors will steer things to a decent solution? Time will tell!
I'm still not understanding how Italy having it's own currency and then devaluing it would help their debt situation unless the debt was also in that currency, which it's not, it's in Euros.
Even if devaluing could somehow magically lower debt owed in a different currency, the downsides would still massively outweigh the benefit of lowering debt payments.
If a country is spending more than it earns it must rebalance by increasing productivity, reducing the value of its currency or reducing the size of its economy through reduced borrowing, leading to reduced public spending, leading to reduced standards of living. Italy not being in control of its currency, failing to boost productivity and facing higher costs for any new debt, leaves only austerity as an option.
Italy just wants to be able to devalue rather than austerity hence the more anti-Euro sentiment rather than anti EU sentiment. As @PragueAddick suggests the Mafia may be an important factor in Government not being able to reduce debt as the Mafia, rather than the Government, is controlling a large part of the economy. When politicians are able to get away with not paying their taxes it's hardly surprising that the Government turns to borrowing to fund expenditure.
I am resisting the opportunity to bash the EU, but it is perfectly legitimate to recognise that the inequality of economies within the EU is a fundamental cause of instability which the EU is unable too manage without a common fiscal policy under the control of a central authority - a united states of Europe. Something I'm sure @NornIrishAddick will agree with me on, Macron certainly agrees with me.
I thought Prague did, apologies if I misunderstood.
You could always, you know, re- read a post. I certainly wanted to highlight it, because it never gets talked about. I will try to recall which book it was that opened my eyes to the economic scale ( as opposed to the much portrayed brutuality) of the mafias' operations.
Imagine that 60% of the stuff going in and out of Felixstowe was controlled by organised crime. You can't imagine it, can you? let alone how you might deal with it. But that, according to the book, is the actual situation in Napoli. And that's just the start.
I will track that book down.
Mafia Republic: Italy's Criminal Curse by John Dickie
That was not it. Rather worryingly :-)
Still, @MuttleyCAFC can read that one with his antipasti. Although he will quickly need a grappa. :-)
If you order fish and chips and are asked whether you want garden peas of mushy peas it is not the most exciting of decisions that will leave you licking your lips. Peas are just the token bland vegetable that you can spoon down your throat. Then try a pasta dish with a fresh pea sauce in Italy, it might just be the tastiest thing you have ever tasted!
Not a swipe at you Muttley, but in general I feel quite strongly about the example you made - Europeans and their obsession with who does the best food. British cuisine will always get a bad rap, quite unfairly IMO as things have moved on massively here in the last 20 years by no means are we up with the best but neither are Italy.
I've been all over Italy for work, the colder parts of the north, the warm regions in the south, restaurants, traditional pizzerias,colleagues homes, agriturismo's etc and whilst it has done nothing for my waistline it must be said that as others have correctly eluded to, the food is boring and overrated. Pizza and pasta? Sounds like the sort of fare that children would go for at an all inclusive resort. Even with the freshest ingredients from the warmest regions the notion of making a pizza or a pasta is so simple. 'Oh nonna used to make it like this' - wow did she boil the water herself!?
I'm still not understanding how Italy having it's own currency and then devaluing it would help their debt situation unless the debt was also in that currency, which it's not, it's in Euros.
Even if devaluing could somehow magically lower debt owed in a different currency, the downsides would still massively outweigh the benefit of lowering debt payments.
If a country is spending more than it earns it must rebalance by increasing productivity, reducing the value of its currency or reducing the size of its economy through reduced borrowing, leading to reduced public spending, leading to reduced standards of living. Italy not being in control of its currency, failing to boost productivity and facing higher costs for any new debt, leaves only austerity as an option.
Italy just wants to be able to devalue rather than austerity hence the more anti-Euro sentiment rather than anti EU sentiment. As @PragueAddick suggests the Mafia may be an important factor in Government not being able to reduce debt as the Mafia, rather than the Government, is controlling a large part of the economy. When politicians are able to get away with not paying their taxes it's hardly surprising that the Government turns to borrowing to fund expenditure.
I am resisting the opportunity to bash the EU, but it is perfectly legitimate to recognise that the inequality of economies within the EU is a fundamental cause of instability which the EU is unable too manage without a common fiscal policy under the control of a central authority - a united states of Europe. Something I'm sure @NornIrishAddick will agree with me on, Macron certainly agrees with me.
Your last point is very good. A single currency without a single banking system and a single political system makes no sense and is ultimately unworkable. That is why federalism has to remain the end goal of the EU, however much it is denied for political purposes ( ie very few people actually want it). This is the irrestistible logic towards centralisation built into the EU project. At the same time, the consequences of the Euro are unpopular outside Germany (where they benefit the most). The central dynamic of the Euro is a drive towards centralism while more and more people are disaffected as a result. This centripetal/centrifugal contradiction lies behind much of the 'populist' dissent in Europe today.
Agree with Southbank - Germany gets the most out of the Euro - It has been calculated that it devalues what the mark would be by about 40% which is a dream for their exports!
Had a few holidays in Italy, there now subbing myself by a pool overlooking Florence. That experience and visiting other European countries always made me think the Euro is over valued, things cost way too much - is that the German influence making the Euro too high and if so what could Germany do to ease that within current mechanisms?
Had a few holidays in Italy, there now subbing myself by a pool overlooking Florence. That experience and visiting other European countries always made me think the Euro is over valued, things cost way too much - is that the German influence making the Euro too high and if so what could Germany do to ease that within current mechanisms?
Why would they want to do that? It works perfectly for them.
Comments
Most Italians resent Germany.
the Italian relationship with the EU wont end well in my view
And the wine is wonderful, especially Tuscan Reds.
Garlic
Olive oil
Pasta.
Repeat until bored.
Imagine that 60% of the stuff going in and out of Felixstowe was controlled by organised crime. You can't imagine it, can you? let alone how you might deal with it. But that, according to the book, is the actual situation in Napoli. And that's just the start.
I will track that book down.
If I am eating out in this country, Italian would be behind Asian, but that is because it is not the same here as it is there!
For me it’s hands down best food in the world. Try their meats, fish, regional delicacies. Coffee, gelato, pastries. The wines with olives for starters. Then the fresh fruit after finished with grappa. Can’t be beaten. I can’t stop eating when out there.
Then the landscape is unbelievable. Especially places like Amalfi, Sorrento, Positano. Absolutely breath taking.
Then the passion for football and the chilled lifestyle. The mopeds zooming around with a cigarette in one hand and their kid on the front with their dog on the back.
The retro buildings and amazing architecture, churches, mountains, cliff fronts, Vesuvius across the water.
Just a shame about the economy.
Either continue the Renzi reforms and maintain growth at 1.5% or more which in turn will reduce the debt:GDP ratio and NPL mountain still further. This in turn will help the banks which can then lend more or be acquired by international competitors. They can also play a win:win game with Macron/Merkel to tease out supportive reforms and hard cash to regenerate the South.
Or they can ignore sound macro economic theory and their bargaining position, blame migrants, refugees and Brussels and play a Syriza/Varoufakis game. The difference is that Italy is far bigger than Greece so while Varoufakis went into the room with a gun pointing at his own head, Italy can point a bazooka at the Euro!
No expert on Italy but a brief web search suggests that they are at a crossroads... and will take a decent path? Hard to tell!
It is unclear where things will go next as the Alt-Right have gained 10% in the polls since the March election. Some of this is at the expense of Burlusconi and Forza Italia which is now "gone". This leaves three major parties Cinque Stelle, the League and the PD.
It was the PD who lost 10% at the last election which triggered this shift. Question is whether they can win back any votes? Cinque Stelle (five star movement) are on 33% with the League on 27%. They have a coalition of convenience but one might break free if they can see a route to the magic 40% which puts them in power.
Also note that neither party can openly campaign against the Euro as that would be against the constitution.
People should be aware that Salvini and Di Maio are both linked to Russia and Putin. Salvini of the League has actually signed a formal deal with Putin. Google it if you doubt the veracity of that assertion. Thus Italy could become aligned with Moscow? We live in interesting times.
One thing that might stall proceedings is that much of the €2.3trn national debt is owned by Italians. So the markets may influence events given that crashing out of the Euro will be catastrophic for those holding Italian debt.
Perhaps a variety of factors will steer things to a decent solution? Time will tell!
Italy just wants to be able to devalue rather than austerity hence the more anti-Euro sentiment rather than anti EU sentiment. As @PragueAddick suggests the Mafia may be an important factor in Government not being able to reduce debt as the Mafia, rather than the Government, is controlling a large part of the economy. When politicians are able to get away with not paying their taxes it's hardly surprising that the Government turns to borrowing to fund expenditure.
I am resisting the opportunity to bash the EU, but it is perfectly legitimate to recognise that the inequality of economies within the EU is a fundamental cause of instability which the EU is unable too manage without a common fiscal policy under the control of a central authority - a united states of Europe. Something I'm sure @NornIrishAddick will agree with me on, Macron certainly agrees with me.
Still, @MuttleyCAFC can read that one with his antipasti. Although he will quickly need a grappa. :-)
British cuisine will always get a bad rap, quite unfairly IMO as things have moved on massively here in the last 20 years by no means are we up with the best but neither are Italy.
I've been all over Italy for work, the colder parts of the north, the warm regions in the south, restaurants, traditional pizzerias,colleagues homes, agriturismo's etc and whilst it has done nothing for my waistline it must be said that as others have correctly eluded to, the food is boring and overrated. Pizza and pasta? Sounds like the sort of fare that children would go for at an all inclusive resort.
Even with the freshest ingredients from the warmest regions the notion of making a pizza or a pasta is so simple.
'Oh nonna used to make it like this' - wow did she boil the water herself!?
Agree with Southbank - Germany gets the most out of the Euro - It has been calculated that it devalues what the mark would be by about 40% which is a dream for their exports!