Like a lot of people I'm a bit cautious about wading into anything Italy as I freely admit to not understanding the country. However Italy has always worried me in the EU context, and so I am worried now.
I often say that in the UK people looked to blame the EU for a range of problems that were clearly in fact the result of national political decisions, and thus entirely within our gift to resolve. That's how I see Italy, in spades. The single biggest issue is the enormous and still growing role of organised crime. That was true in the early 60s, (I can remember as a kid watching a BBC drama series, Vendetta, and being thoroughly spooked by it) and as far as I can tell Italy has made no progress in pushing it back, let alone eradicating it. I think that in the 60s the other countires simply assumed Italy would join them on the road to mature post-war democracy, and unfortunately it has never happened. That's largely because of the role of organised crime. The figures are staggering, and it is inconceivable that many politicians are not directly profiting from it. Probably as a result, I also know from friends who have lived there that middle class Italians insulate themselves through extensive "private" savings, though I never quite understood what 'private' means. Sooo..which of the current political parties stood on a platform of even pushing back on, let alone eliminating the Mafia? Not just this time, but in the last 20 years? I cannot remember any. Seems to come down to brave individual law makers and enforcers, who usually end up dead. I am afraid as a result I am not a great fan of Italians. It's their country and they should elect politicians who can spot an elephant when it's in the room. If they can't then I would love to be able to kick them out of the EU tomorrow, we'd be the better for it, but they are so entwined in it that it just isn't possible.
But I may be unfair, and showing my ignorance. I welcome a different view from those with more detailed knowledge of the country.
Sigh, nothing to do with being in a currency union where they can neither get the debt forgiven nor devalue their currency to get back on an even keel then?
Like a lot of people I'm a bit cautious about wading into anything Italy as I freely admit to not understanding the country. However Italy has always worried me in the EU context, and so I am worried now.
I often say that in the UK people looked to blame the EU for a range of problems that were clearly in fact the result of national political decisions, and thus entirely within our gift to resolve. That's how I see Italy, in spades. The single biggest issue is the enormous and still growing role of organised crime. That was true in the early 60s, (I can remember as a kid watching a BBC drama series, Vendetta, and being thoroughly spooked by it) and as far as I can tell Italy has made no progress in pushing it back, let alone eradicating it. I think that in the 60s the other countires simply assumed Italy would join them on the road to mature post-war democracy, and unfortunately it has never happened. That's largely because of the role of organised crime. The figures are staggering, and it is inconceivable that many politicians are not directly profiting from it. Probably as a result, I also know from friends who have lived there that middle class Italians insulate themselves through extensive "private" savings, though I never quite understood what 'private' means. Sooo..which of the current political parties stood on a platform of even pushing back on, let alone eliminating the Mafia? Not just this time, but in the last 20 years? I cannot remember any. Seems to come down to brave individual law makers and enforcers, who usually end up dead. I am afraid as a result I am not a great fan of Italians. It's their country and they should elect politicians who can spot an elephant when it's in the room. If they can't then I would love to be able to kick them out of the EU tomorrow, we'd be the better for it, but they are so entwined in it that it just isn't possible.
But I may be unfair, and showing my ignorance. I welcome a different view from those with more detailed knowledge of the country.
Sigh, nothing to do with being in a currency union where they can neither get the debt forgiven nor devalue their currency to get back on an even keel then?
Debt being forgiven and currency union are two completely separate issues. And if they had their own currency, the only way devaluing it would help with the debt is if the debt was also in that currency and they had holding outside of the currency to then pay it with. All devaluing would achieve is potential hyper-inflation and impoverishing the Italian people by making the money in the pocket worth less. Unless you believe that imports would miraculously soar by more than enough to cover the inflation?
Genoa is a lovely little town by the port, I loved the fresh fish down there. The market place was vibrant and full of locals, a nice spot to get away from the usual tourists.
Like a lot of people I'm a bit cautious about wading into anything Italy as I freely admit to not understanding the country. However Italy has always worried me in the EU context, and so I am worried now.
I often say that in the UK people looked to blame the EU for a range of problems that were clearly in fact the result of national political decisions, and thus entirely within our gift to resolve. That's how I see Italy, in spades. The single biggest issue is the enormous and still growing role of organised crime. That was true in the early 60s, (I can remember as a kid watching a BBC drama series, Vendetta, and being thoroughly spooked by it) and as far as I can tell Italy has made no progress in pushing it back, let alone eradicating it. I think that in the 60s the other countires simply assumed Italy would join them on the road to mature post-war democracy, and unfortunately it has never happened. That's largely because of the role of organised crime. The figures are staggering, and it is inconceivable that many politicians are not directly profiting from it. Probably as a result, I also know from friends who have lived there that middle class Italians insulate themselves through extensive "private" savings, though I never quite understood what 'private' means. Sooo..which of the current political parties stood on a platform of even pushing back on, let alone eliminating the Mafia? Not just this time, but in the last 20 years? I cannot remember any. Seems to come down to brave individual law makers and enforcers, who usually end up dead. I am afraid as a result I am not a great fan of Italians. It's their country and they should elect politicians who can spot an elephant when it's in the room. If they can't then I would love to be able to kick them out of the EU tomorrow, we'd be the better for it, but they are so entwined in it that it just isn't possible.
But I may be unfair, and showing my ignorance. I welcome a different view from those with more detailed knowledge of the country.
Sigh, nothing to do with being in a currency union where they can neither get the debt forgiven nor devalue their currency to get back on an even keel then?
They should not have been let in to the eurozone, in the first place, but primarily because of the massive destabilising influence of the Mafia, which predates even the Coal and Steel Union. As you know...
the mafia is still a massive, almost un-spoken about problem over there, for the most part it's because an eye wateringly large amount of the GDP is ultimately tied up with the cosa nostra and calabrian mafia. IIRC if their wealth was measured as GDP the mafia would be in the top 70 richest countries. The problem has got a lot worse since the financial crisis as they've been able to grow loan sharking etc.
I have been going to Italy for 50 odd years - all my life basically - and much of that is seeing the real Italy, not the tourist aspects. I would say that Italy was a much more optimistic vibrant place in the 70s. And it has been going downhill since.
Growth is extremely important, but youth unemployment creates despair. We can't go around telling Italians it isn't so bad or even good like the arrogant Cameron and Osborne did during the referendum. If you are working harder for less and your children can't get jobs you are just going to tell politicians to F off! If our government was intelligent - which it obviously isn't - it would be holding meetings with the Italian leadership about how both countries could work together outside of the EU. This would put the wind up the EU and strengthen our negotiating position.
Maybe we should offer to underwrite their debts and let them use the pound ?
What's the process for a country leaving the Euro? I can't imagine going back to the the Lira, however effective it is against Swindon would be good for their economy
You could say it was as it happens. Countries like Italy and Greece got by and were able to paper over the cracks in their economies because they were able to devalue their currencies and because they can’t do that with the Euro they are basically screwed now.
Good article that. Was going to recommend it to @Southbank as a kind of laboratory test of the Brexiter's faculties....
You think? "It's all your own fault Italy, so tough ".
Just the sort of attitude that has turned voters away from the traditional parties throughout the EU.
But still the EU aren't listening and continue to tell us that what they say goes. Just seems like total intransigence to me. Or does the EU actually have too much bureaucracy for them to even try do something different and to prevent this amount of discourse in so many nations.
EDIT: Thought it was an interesting article though.
I'm still not understanding how Italy having it's own currency and then devaluing it would help their debt situation unless the debt was also in that currency, which it's not, it's in Euros.
Even if devaluing could somehow magically lower debt owed in a different currency, the downsides would still massively outweigh the benefit of lowering debt payments.
I have been going to Italy for 50 odd years - all my life basically - and much of that is seeing the real Italy, not the tourist aspects. I would say that Italy was a much more optimistic vibrant place in the 70s. And it has been going downhill since.
Growth is extremely important, but youth unemployment creates despair. We can't go around telling Italians it isn't so bad or even good like the arrogant Cameron and Osborne did during the referendum. If you are working harder for less and your children can't get jobs you are just going to tell politicians to F off! If our government was intelligent - which it obviously isn't - it would be holding meetings with the Italian leadership about how both countries could work together outside of the EU. This would put the wind up the EU and strengthen our negotiating position.
Maybe we should offer to underwrite their debts and let them use the pound ?
Or maybe we should just try to unsettle the EU a bit. As for Prague's theory - linking Italy's problems to organised crime is verging on the ridiculous. What surprised me most when I went to Italy recently was how many Italians were saying well done about Brexit - we need to follow. I told them I didn't support Brexit as it was economic suicide but if people think Italy couldn't leave the EU, I have got the vibe that they really can.
I am a remainer, but one who is critical of the EU. Some remainers try to paint the EU as perfect when it is far from so. I think that lacks credibility. Leaving it is going to make us all poorer - even those who don't think they can get any poorer. That is and always has been the point for me.
I have been going to Italy for 50 odd years - all my life basically - and much of that is seeing the real Italy, not the tourist aspects. I would say that Italy was a much more optimistic vibrant place in the 70s. And it has been going downhill since.
Growth is extremely important, but youth unemployment creates despair. We can't go around telling Italians it isn't so bad or even good like the arrogant Cameron and Osborne did during the referendum. If you are working harder for less and your children can't get jobs you are just going to tell politicians to F off! If our government was intelligent - which it obviously isn't - it would be holding meetings with the Italian leadership about how both countries could work together outside of the EU. This would put the wind up the EU and strengthen our negotiating position.
Maybe we should offer to underwrite their debts and let them use the pound ?
Or maybe we should just try to unsettle the EU a bit. As for Prague's theory - linking Italy's problems to organised crime is verging on the ridiculous. What surprised me most when I went to Italy recently was how many Italians were saying well done about Brexit - we need to follow. I told them I didn't support Brexit as it was economic suicide but if people think Italy couldn't leave the EU, I have got the vibe that they really can.
I am a remainer, but one who is critical of the EU. Some remainers try to paint the EU as perfect when it is far from so. I think that lacks credibility. Leaving it is going to make us all poorer - even those who don't think they can get any poorer. That is and always has been the point for me.
Can you provide an example of a Remainer who thinks the EU is perfect? On here or anywhere?
I do, you can pick words, but the harder to defend aspects of Europe were defended. The EU negotiators have even been described a reasonable by some on here! It's all there for you to read for yourself, if you have the patience!
I do, you can pick words, but the harder to defend aspects of Europe were defended. The EU negotiators have even been described a reasonable by some on here! It's all there for you to read for yourself, if you have the patience!
Describing the EU negotiators as being reasonable (and I have read those posts and I essentially agree with that point) is not the same thing as claiming the EU is perfect. Don't think anyone has made such a claim.
Yes, but it is a theme - I am not going to go through every post - but they are there for all to see if you have the time! They haven't said the EU is perfect in those actual words, but they have defended it in pretty much every aspect against some genuine criticisms.
Yes, but it is a theme - I am not going to go through every post - but they are there for all to see if you have the time! They haven't said the EU is perfect in those actual words, but they have defended it in pretty much every aspect against some genuine criticisms.
I'm still not understanding how Italy having it's own currency and then devaluing it would help their debt situation unless the debt was also in that currency, which it's not, it's in Euros.
Even if devaluing could somehow magically lower debt owed in a different currency, the downsides would still massively outweigh the benefit of lowering debt payments.
It can all be explained by the old saying ‘owe the bank £1,000 and it’s your problem, owe the bank £1 million and it’s the bank’s problem’. All Italy will need to do is say its currency has devalued and it can no longer service the Euro debt and Germany and France will have to bite the bullet and write a chunk of it off.
I have been going to Italy for 50 odd years - all my life basically - and much of that is seeing the real Italy, not the tourist aspects. I would say that Italy was a much more optimistic vibrant place in the 70s. And it has been going downhill since.
Growth is extremely important, but youth unemployment creates despair. We can't go around telling Italians it isn't so bad or even good like the arrogant Cameron and Osborne did during the referendum. If you are working harder for less and your children can't get jobs you are just going to tell politicians to F off! If our government was intelligent - which it obviously isn't - it would be holding meetings with the Italian leadership about how both countries could work together outside of the EU. This would put the wind up the EU and strengthen our negotiating position.
Maybe we should offer to underwrite their debts and let them use the pound ?
Or maybe we should just try to unsettle the EU a bit. As for Prague's theory - linking Italy's problems to organised crime is verging on the ridiculous. What surprised me most when I went to Italy recently was how many Italians were saying well done about Brexit - we need to follow. I told them I didn't support Brexit as it was economic suicide but if people think Italy couldn't leave the EU, I have got the vibe that they really can.
I am a remainer, but one who is critical of the EU. Some remainers try to paint the EU as perfect when it is far from so. I think that lacks credibility. Leaving it is going to make us all poorer - even those who don't think they can get any poorer. That is and always has been the point for me.
Theory? Theory??? Go read up about it before labelling my assertion as ridiculous. Not least because it is prominently listed in the article above, which even @southbank managed to absorb as a key problem, as one of Italy's key and most enduring issues. I don't expect everyone to agree with me Muttley, but I try not to make assertions that could be dismissed by a well informed poster as "ridiculous". And if you want to make such a strong criticism, at least bring some facts to back yourself up.
@Addickted The article is especially resonant because I have always argued (you may remember, before the referendum) that the UK's key problems were British in nature and within the gift of politicians to solve. I cited the NHS, transport issues, and more latterly elderly care and education issues. The author similarly cites problems of an even more specifically Italian nature, including Muttley's "ridiculous" mafia. They can and should address their problems as we should have done.
To be fair to you, you were one of those who convinced me that immigration is also an issue, in that it creates pressure points on the above services if not managed effectively. Similarly I have huge sympathy with Italy's migrant problem, they were left to fend for themselves on the front line. Although that is not an EU freedom of movement issue per se. The author makes pertinent criticisms of the EU in this regard, did you glaze over at that bit?
Comments
"Oooh look guys I posted on the twitterverse, aren't I cool?"
Just kidding, I have little to no interest in non-italian views on Quitaly.
Just the sort of attitude that has turned voters away from the traditional parties throughout the EU.
But still the EU aren't listening and continue to tell us that what they say goes. Just seems like total intransigence to me. Or does the EU actually have too much bureaucracy for them to even try do something different and to prevent this amount of discourse in so many nations.
EDIT: Thought it was an interesting article though.
Even if devaluing could somehow magically lower debt owed in a different currency, the downsides would still massively outweigh the benefit of lowering debt payments.
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-depreciating-your-currency-reduce-debt-obligations
I am a remainer, but one who is critical of the EU. Some remainers try to paint the EU as perfect when it is far from so. I think that lacks credibility. Leaving it is going to make us all poorer - even those who don't think they can get any poorer. That is and always has been the point for me.
@Addickted The article is especially resonant because I have always argued (you may remember, before the referendum) that the UK's key problems were British in nature and within the gift of politicians to solve. I cited the NHS, transport issues, and more latterly elderly care and education issues. The author similarly cites problems of an even more specifically Italian nature, including Muttley's "ridiculous" mafia. They can and should address their problems as we should have done.
To be fair to you, you were one of those who convinced me that immigration is also an issue, in that it creates pressure points on the above services if not managed effectively. Similarly I have huge sympathy with Italy's migrant problem, they were left to fend for themselves on the front line. Although that is not an EU freedom of movement issue per se. The author makes pertinent criticisms of the EU in this regard, did you glaze over at that bit?