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Another Shooting in LONDON

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  • SantaClaus
    SantaClaus Posts: 7,651
    Leuth said:

    I mean that is Tory morality in a nutshell: a punitive rigged game which rewards selfishness and holds success over one's fellow human as a virtue. I can't wait to vote that shit into oblivion some day soon

    A soapbox political rant on a thread about youth violence? Whatever floats your boat.
  • palarsehater
    palarsehater Posts: 12,296
    Leuth said:

    I mean that is Tory morality in a nutshell: a punitive rigged game which rewards selfishness and holds success over one's fellow human as a virtue. I can't wait to vote that shit into oblivion some day soon

    oh jeremy corbyn
  • NapaAddick
    NapaAddick Posts: 4,657
    blackpool72 said:

    Before this turns into a political itt for tat thread.
    Anybody caught in possession of a gun illegally should go to prison for 5 years.

    Someone who is willing to risk life in prison by killing with a gun is not going to be intimidated by 5 years in prison for owning one. Plus, as is evidenced by the data, they can just grab a knife if need be.
  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,619
    edited May 2018
    so what is the solution?
  • blackpool72
    blackpool72 Posts: 23,670
    blackpool72 said:

    Before this turns into a political itt for tat thread.
    Anybody caught in possession of a gun illegally should go to prison for 5 years.

    Anybody caught bringing guns into Britain and supplying them should get far longer.

    So pleased I posted this on page one of this thread.
    It has turned out as I expected
  • rananegra
    rananegra Posts: 3,689
    Fortune 82nd Minute said:

    rananegra said:

    It's tragic. It needs to be stamped out and I say that as someone who does think the police are institutionally racist.

    TBH I don't recognise the London I live in from some of the posts above. I worry about my kids going places, but they are both sensible and know to avoid trouble. They both get a lot out of living in London that just wouldn't happen in the suburbs or a country town.

    To solve the problem? We need to decriminalise drugs. End prohibition. Of course the gangs will move onto something else, but it won't be anywhere as lucrative.

    Use the revenue raised from drugs taxes to fund youth services and things to divert teenager's energies.

    Why on earth do you think that today's Police Force - not the one of 20 years ago-
    is institutionally racist?

    Coppers I know were all brought up in very diverse areas and don't, as far as I know, have a racist bone in their body. On the contrary, they just want to help everyone irrespective of colour or creed.
    The police have got better over the last 20 years, for sure, and of course there are a lot more individual coppers without a racist bone in their body than in the past. But this isn't about individual cops, institutional racism is about the police as an institution. And if we ask ourselves, do the police as an institution respond differently to different racial groups, the answer is clearly yes. Imagine how many more resources would be put into this if it was mainly white kids being killed.

    I'm not suggesting it's easy for the Met - they are damned if they do and damned if they don't on this one. And we as a society are not serious about prohibition of drugs: they're easy to get (it's easier for teenagers to get weed than alcohol), a large swathe of society take them and the law sends out mixed messages about whether it is criminal or not.
  • Baldybonce
    Baldybonce Posts: 9,640
    ShootersHillGuru said:

    so what is the solution?

    Stop them wearing padded jackets with the hoods up when it's 26 degrees might be a start.
  • i_b_b_o_r_g
    i_b_b_o_r_g Posts: 18,948
    edited May 2018
    rananegra said:

    Fortune 82nd Minute said:

    rananegra said:

    It's tragic. It needs to be stamped out and I say that as someone who does think the police are institutionally racist.

    TBH I don't recognise the London I live in from some of the posts above. I worry about my kids going places, but they are both sensible and know to avoid trouble. They both get a lot out of living in London that just wouldn't happen in the suburbs or a country town.

    To solve the problem? We need to decriminalise drugs. End prohibition. Of course the gangs will move onto something else, but it won't be anywhere as lucrative.

    Use the revenue raised from drugs taxes to fund youth services and things to divert teenager's energies.

    Why on earth do you think that today's Police Force - not the one of 20 years ago-
    is institutionally racist?

    Coppers I know were all brought up in very diverse areas and don't, as far as I know, have a racist bone in their body. On the contrary, they just want to help everyone irrespective of colour or creed.
    The police have got better over the last 20 years, for sure, and of course there are a lot more individual coppers without a racist bone in their body than in the past. But this isn't about individual cops, institutional racism is about the police as an institution. And if we ask ourselves, do the police as an institution respond differently to different racial groups, the answer is clearly yes. Imagine how many more resources would be put into this if it was mainly white kids being killed.

    I'm not suggesting it's easy for the Met - they are damned if they do and damned if they don't on this one. And we as a society are not serious about prohibition of drugs: they're easy to get (it's easier for teenagers to get weed than alcohol), a large swathe of society take them and the law sends out mixed messages about whether it is criminal or not.
    I've asked meself and I couldn't disagree with it more. In fact, it's because the ob are trying to be so unracist, that the problem is as bad as it is imo. A bit like the grooming gangs, they attempted to sweep the problem under the carpet for similar reasons, hoping it will go away, but it didn't and it won't.

    Imo - everyone needs to accept that, to tackle the problem, short term, the copper on the street needs to be backed up when he or she decides to stop people and search them. And, as I said before, no matter what colour one is, if one is serious about working towards stopping this problem, short term, one has to accept they might get a tug from the police from time to time.

    We can argue about the root cause of the problem until we're blue in the face, but that won't save lives, short term imo
  • Friend Or Defoe
    Friend Or Defoe Posts: 18,083
    ShootersHillGuru said:

    so what is the solution?

    Replicate what they did in Glasgow.
  • Manicmania
    Manicmania Posts: 1,594
    Baldybonce said:

    ShootersHillGuru said:

    so what is the solution?

    Stop them wearing padded jackets with the hoods up when it's 26 degrees might be a start.
    If we are going to stop people from making ridiculous fashion choices can we ban Crocs first?
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  • i_b_b_o_r_g
    i_b_b_o_r_g Posts: 18,948
    Manicmania said:

    Baldybonce said:

    ShootersHillGuru said:

    so what is the solution?

    Stop them wearing padded jackets with the hoods up when it's 26 degrees might be a start.
    If we are going to stop people from making ridiculous fashion choices can we ban Crocs first?
    ...and middle aged blokes with toenail fungus from wearing open toed fuckin sandals
  • blackpool72
    blackpool72 Posts: 23,670
    Friend Or Defoe said:

    ShootersHillGuru said:

    so what is the solution?

    Replicate what they did in Glasgow.
    Deep fried mars bars would not work in South London
  • i_b_b_o_r_g
    i_b_b_o_r_g Posts: 18,948
    From the Woolwich thread -
    clive said:

    Another stabbing this evening near Beresford Square at around 17.00,after a 'mass brawl',one person arrested.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-44045945

  • cafcdave123
    cafcdave123 Posts: 11,491
    blackpool72 said:

    Friend Or Defoe said:

    ShootersHillGuru said:

    so what is the solution?

    Replicate what they did in Glasgow.
    Deep fried mars bars would not work in South London
    I thought he was suggesting we all go round chibbing each other
  • Lurker
    Lurker Posts: 407
    Is anyone thinking about leaving London due to safety concerns? We have a young family, my wife who's from a small village is getting more concerned by the week and wants to leave. I'm the one that doesn't want to up sticks but I'm starting to think moore l more about it. Doesn't help that our next door neighbour was burgled a few weeks ago.

    I don't really hear many stories of people regretting getting out.
  • i_b_b_o_r_g
    i_b_b_o_r_g Posts: 18,948
    cafcdave123 said:

    blackpool72 said:

    Friend Or Defoe said:

    ShootersHillGuru said:

    so what is the solution?

    Replicate what they did in Glasgow.
    Deep fried mars bars would not work in South London
    I thought he was suggesting we all go round chibbing each other
    I thought he meant we all go round in string vests, with baked bean stains down the front
  • Leuth
    Leuth Posts: 23,314
    I kind of want to leave London at some point but that's owing to a love of nature rather than anything else.

    Anyone leaving London because it's unsafe doesn't know they're born tbh
  • Baldybonce
    Baldybonce Posts: 9,640
    clive said:

    Another stabbing this evening near Beresford Square at around 17.00,after a 'mass brawl',one person arrested.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-44045945

    Baldybonce said:

    ShootersHillGuru said:

    so what is the solution?

    Stop them wearing padded jackets with the hoods up when it's 26 degrees might be a start.

    Well there's a coincidence. It was about 10 to 5 when I saw the youths in Woolwich in padded jackets with their hoods up.
  • Lurker
    Lurker Posts: 407
    Leuth said:

    I kind of want to leave London at some point but that's owing to a love of nature rather than anything else.

    Anyone leaving London because it's unsafe doesn't know they're born tbh

    I don't think it's unsafe for me in my thirties, but SE London didn't feel safe when I was in my teens, I was just too stupid to care
  • Leuth
    Leuth Posts: 23,314
    SantaClaus said:

    Leuth said:

    I mean that is Tory morality in a nutshell: a punitive rigged game which rewards selfishness and holds success over one's fellow human as a virtue. I can't wait to vote that shit into oblivion some day soon

    A soapbox political rant on a thread about youth violence? Whatever floats your boat.
    It's as good a place as any. Unless you believe that youth violence is genetically determined. Do you believe that?
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  • SantaClaus
    SantaClaus Posts: 7,651
    Leuth said:

    SantaClaus said:

    Leuth said:

    I mean that is Tory morality in a nutshell: a punitive rigged game which rewards selfishness and holds success over one's fellow human as a virtue. I can't wait to vote that shit into oblivion some day soon

    A soapbox political rant on a thread about youth violence? Whatever floats your boat.
    It's as good a place as any. Unless you believe that youth violence is genetically determined. Do you believe that?
    We wind each other up but I actually quite like alot of your posts Leuth. Probably best if I just let that last one drift off into the ether though.
  • Leuth
    Leuth Posts: 23,314
    Yeah, probably a bit much. Swords down, it's evening
  • Swisdom
    Swisdom Posts: 14,977
    Lurker said:

    Is anyone thinking about leaving London due to safety concerns? We have a young family, my wife who's from a small village is getting more concerned by the week and wants to leave. I'm the one that doesn't want to up sticks but I'm starting to think moore l more about it. Doesn't help that our next door neighbour was burgled a few weeks ago.

    I don't really hear many stories of people regretting getting out.

    My sister was s paramedic in Woolwich. Lived on Plumstead Common. Was one of the first on scene at the Lee Rigby beheading. That was the final straw and she relocated down to Kent near me. She doesn’t regret it one bit and loves it down here - and has remarried too so is very settled now.
    I love London for visits but wouldn’t want to live there any more

  • Chizz
    Chizz Posts: 28,331
    edited May 2018
    i_b_b_o_r_g said:

    Chizz said:

    SuedeAdidas said:

    Chizz said:

    SuedeAdidas said:

    Robbo on the wing said:

    Is there a great deal of difference between stop and search, to having a CCTV camera aimed at you when you get of a train for an away game? This has been going on for years to mainly white people.
    Whether you pat down my clothing, or monitor my movements at a football match, are both not an invasion of privacy?

    I don’t personally even see that as an invasion of privacy. It’s part of the modern world I’m afraid.

    I’m not saying that I’m anywhere near in the same category of people (or groups of people) who feel they are being targeted by stop and search......but I think it’s happened to me about half a dozen times over the years. I’d done nothing wrong and saw it as a pretty minor inconvenience by the police who I perceived to be just doing their job.

    I’m firmly in the “nothing to worry about if you’ve got nothing to hide” camp.
    Presumably then, you would have no problem whatsoever if you were stopped and searched every time you went out? Even if the people you were with weren't?
    I have no idea....as I said - It's only happened to me half a dozen times mate.

    Are there people who get get searched every time they go out then?
    I wasn't talking about "these people", whoever they are. I was interested to know more about your view that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about. So, while it must have been mildly frustrating for it to have happened half a dozen times over the years (and, for me, its been far less often than that), it's interesting to find out whether you would still not object if it were half a dozen times a year, or half a dozen times a month, or half a dozen times a week, or even more frequently? And, further, if you still would be happy about the situation if you could see you were being singled out and others weren't.

    This isn't meant as a criticism of you, specifically. But it seems that the people who don't think repeatedly being subjected to being singled out for frequent stops and searches are almost always people who aren't stopped and searched very often.

    In my view, it's not simply *more* policing that's required (by which I mean continuing to do what's being done, only more frequently), but it's more, *better* policing. I think we need more police and more community police learning, understand and gathering both respect and intelligence about what's going on in any - and every - community. And, in this way, fewer people may be stopped, because fewer people will be carrying.

    After all, while nicking people that are carrying is a good thing, it's better not to have people carrying in the first place.
    Take it from me, I have been stopped loadsa times and I would happily be stopped regularly these days, if it meant stopping the violence. 100% guaranteed fact, it would not bother me on iota
    That's a fair point. But I'm sure you'd never be in a position to believe that you'd been stopped because of the colour of your skin.

    I don't think merely increasing the use of stop and search would stop the violence. If it did, I'd support it completely.
    palarsehater said:

    Chizz said:

    palarsehater said:

    Minimum 15 years for a knife carrying 25 for carrying a gun - you only carry them if your prepared to use them.

    The single parent line - does my head in, I was brought up by a single parent done me no harm.

    People can change if they want to change.

    In the case of a child stupidly carrying a butter knife in his rucksack to school, because he felt frightened by older kids beating hi up for his lunch money every day and taking it on himself to ignore the advice and guidance of his parents - two GPs - to report bullying, but not retaliate, would you think a "minimum of 15 years for a knife carrying" would still be appropriate?
    @Chizz you do always feel the need to go a bit silly, 16+ adults obviously, was quite badly bullied at school myself the worst i done was stab someone in the arm with a compass which got me suspended for a week. the same goes for tradesman they carry knives because there a tool, also a butterknife isn't an offensive weapon is it.

    this on the other hand from a recent haul recovered by met police, hardly butter knives

    image
    Thanks for clarifying that, when you said "Minimum 15 years for a knife carrying 25 for carrying a gun - you only carry them if your prepared to use them", you didn't mean all knives, you didn't mean people under 16 and that your law didn't apply to some "tradesmen". Presumably because only some knives are dangerous, kids under 16 never stab or threaten people with knives and certain "tradesmen" (or people claiming to be "tradesmen"?) would never stab anyone. Right?

    The point I'm making is that the issue is so serious and so important, it can't be fixed by making a blanket, incomplete law change.
  • i_b_b_o_r_g
    i_b_b_o_r_g Posts: 18,948
    Chizz said:

    i_b_b_o_r_g said:

    Chizz said:

    SuedeAdidas said:

    Chizz said:

    SuedeAdidas said:

    Robbo on the wing said:

    Is there a great deal of difference between stop and search, to having a CCTV camera aimed at you when you get of a train for an away game? This has been going on for years to mainly white people.
    Whether you pat down my clothing, or monitor my movements at a football match, are both not an invasion of privacy?

    I don’t personally even see that as an invasion of privacy. It’s part of the modern world I’m afraid.

    I’m not saying that I’m anywhere near in the same category of people (or groups of people) who feel they are being targeted by stop and search......but I think it’s happened to me about half a dozen times over the years. I’d done nothing wrong and saw it as a pretty minor inconvenience by the police who I perceived to be just doing their job.

    I’m firmly in the “nothing to worry about if you’ve got nothing to hide” camp.
    Presumably then, you would have no problem whatsoever if you were stopped and searched every time you went out? Even if the people you were with weren't?
    I have no idea....as I said - It's only happened to me half a dozen times mate.

    Are there people who get get searched every time they go out then?
    I wasn't talking about "these people", whoever they are. I was interested to know more about your view that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about. So, while it must have been mildly frustrating for it to have happened half a dozen times over the years (and, for me, its been far less often than that), it's interesting to find out whether you would still not object if it were half a dozen times a year, or half a dozen times a month, or half a dozen times a week, or even more frequently? And, further, if you still would be happy about the situation if you could see you were being singled out and others weren't.

    This isn't meant as a criticism of you, specifically. But it seems that the people who don't think repeatedly being subjected to being singled out for frequent stops and searches are almost always people who aren't stopped and searched very often.

    In my view, it's not simply *more* policing that's required (by which I mean continuing to do what's being done, only more frequently), but it's more, *better* policing. I think we need more police and more community police learning, understand and gathering both respect and intelligence about what's going on in any - and every - community. And, in this way, fewer people may be stopped, because fewer people will be carrying.

    After all, while nicking people that are carrying is a good thing, it's better not to have people carrying in the first place.
    Take it from me, I have been stopped loadsa times and I would happily be stopped regularly these days, if it meant stopping the violence. 100% guaranteed fact, it would not bother me on iota
    That's a fair point. But I'm sure you'd never be in a position to believe that you'd been stopped because of the colour of your skin.

    I don't think merely increasing the use of stop and search would stop the violence. If it did, I'd support it completely.
    palarsehater said:

    Chizz said:

    palarsehater said:

    Minimum 15 years for a knife carrying 25 for carrying a gun - you only carry them if your prepared to use them.

    The single parent line - does my head in, I was brought up by a single parent done me no harm.

    People can change if they want to change.

    In the case of a child stupidly carrying a butter knife in his rucksack to school, because he felt frightened by older kids beating hi up for his lunch money every day and taking it on himself to ignore the advice and guidance of his parents - two GPs - to report bullying, but not retaliate, would you think a "minimum of 15 years for a knife carrying" would still be appropriate?
    @Chizz you do always feel the need to go a bit silly, 16+ adults obviously, was quite badly bullied at school myself the worst i done was stab someone in the arm with a compass which got me suspended for a week. the same goes for tradesman they carry knives because there a tool, also a butterknife isn't an offensive weapon is it.

    this on the other hand from a recent haul recovered by met police, hardly butter knives

    image
    Thanks for clarifying that, when you said "Minimum 15 years for a knife carrying 25 for carrying a gun - you only carry them if your prepared to use them", you didn't mean all knives, you didn't mean people under 16 and that your law didn't apply to some "tradesmen". Presumably because only some knives are dangerous, kids under 16 never stab or threaten people with knives and certain "tradesmen" (or people claiming to be "tradesmen"?) would never stab anyone. Right?

    The point I'm making is that the issue is so serious and so important, it can't be fixed by making a blanket, incomplete law change.
    That's my point though, if it was white blokes in their 40's who were involved in this violence, I'd happily be stopped and searched on a daily basis. Young white lads, wearing certain brands of clothing, are profiled at the football, kettled and put back on trains and coaches etc. on a weekly bases. Do people moan? Yeah, but it's never a big deal.

    If stop and search was increased, I'm convinced it would stop a fair amount of these kids going out tooled up and for the ones who say they carry purely for self defence, stop and search would surely make them feel a certain degree safer. It's a no brainer to me, people who are confident they probably aren't gonna be stopped are more likely to carry something than some one who thinks they may get a tug at some point...
  • McBobbin
    McBobbin Posts: 12,051
    Do the kids even think about the consequences of being caught though? Not sure they do
  • i_b_b_o_r_g
    i_b_b_o_r_g Posts: 18,948
    McBobbin said:

    Do the kids even think about the consequences of being caught though? Not sure they do

    We're fucked then
  • Goonerhater
    Goonerhater Posts: 12,677
    Leuth you talk some utter bollox --- ill never forget the day my wife told me she didnt feel safe in London anymore---like id failed her---that was after 22 years of living in Kidbrooke --- moved to a village in true blue Tory land---she loves it---people talk to her in the street,help each other,care about each other ----o yes forgot to say she is Asian .

    excuse
    excuse
    blame the Torys
    throw money at the problem
    excuse
    blame the torys

    cant wait for the day Jeza abd Dianne sink the Labour rats for good hopefully dragging Kant with them

  • nth_london_addick
    nth_london_addick Posts: 35,919
    edited May 2018
    Review the crime figures for kids between 13-18 being killed or stabbed in Enfield

    Then understand that each of those incidents were within a 15 Min walk from my home or the fact two were stabbed outside my two youngests school

    2 in the parks where we walk the dog and they play on the swings both incidents pre sun down and in broad daylight

    Then research the amount of muggings that have taken place where knives have been used and the sweet spot for that is less than a mile from my house

    I ain’t scared of the cnuts doing it I ain’t scared to walk the roads myself

    But I am petrified that one of the next victims will be my eldest

    These vermin feral disgusting scum that are the murderers the muggers the brave cnuts with 12 inch knives have no boundaries no rules and no fear of dying or going to jail

    Their parents are waste of oxygen breathing filth

    So it’s a case of you win I will take my chances elsewhere and go to where I feel it’s more in keeping with the sort of life lessons I want my kids to have

  • Pringle
    Pringle Posts: 464
    How about anyone convicted of gang violence to be made to serve in the army, in a new regiment set up just to straighten out these types. If prisons aren't the answer, maybe something like that could be.

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