Kicking off again now, we about an hour ago, Kennington/Camberwell way, Brixton road. One lad shot, old bill saved his life, one lad with a bullet prove vest tazered and arrested. Others got away. Helicopters out.
I grew up in South east London and went to school in New Cross. I still live in the same area and have two boys who are 12 and 15 who go to the local secondary school.
I am a deputy headteacher in a south east London secondary school which has students across the demographic.
I made a conscious decision that I would work in such a school and bring my children up in London.
I do not regret it one bit.
The black children I teach are subjected to stop and search on a regular basis. It is now part of their journey home. I do not not know of one child who had been found with anything illegal on them. Is this a racist approach? Course it is as it is based on their colour. The vast majority of these are good kids, very good kids. They want to do well in school and aspire to better themselves. Forget the notion that there is an anti boffin or anti geek culture in schools. There isn’t. They want to be in the top sets. They know the benefit of being hard working. These kids are in school on Saturdays and during holidays. For many education is seen as vital if they are to not replicate the lives of their parents.
I have no real solution to the current issues. It is far too complicated for there to be one solution. I am sure, however, that if many of the out of school evening opportunities that used to be provided had not seen huge funding reductions, more children would be engaged in activities that stimulated them and give them further opportunities to learn and pursue new interests.
This is now why schools like mine are open from 7am to 7pm. We provide revision areas, breakfast, basketball, boxing and fitness classes. We provide a safe and quiet place to study.
This costs us a lot of money but is so vital. The uptake for it is phenomenal.
My eldest son has a number of black friends who he socialises with. They are good lads and come from a range of different households. They are polite but of course have a cheekiness that most 15 year old boys have.
Only last week they all went to Sports Direct to buy swimming shorts. They were refused entry. They didn’t argue or make a scene. They are used to it. My son sees this and knows if he was with an all white group of friends he could go pretty much anywhere without fear of refused entry to a sports shop!
I think this gives my son a sense of how the world works. He sees injustice and I know it makes him a more rounded young man. He challenges prejudice and sees its effects.
Once a boy in my school told me he has two options in the evening. Either stay at home ( a one bedroom flat where he shares a bedroom with two brothers) or join a gang. Eventually the better option for him becomes pretty clear.
As I said earlier there is not an easy solution to this. But believe me there are many many good young people who, despite many obstacles, are trying to make something positive of their lives.
You make good points and offer a real and alternative perspective.
The second to last paragraph though I don’t understand. How are those the only two options of an evening? Are you (or he rather) implying that to just be outside the house would result in you being forced into being part of a gang?
He could not go and play football or any other sport, or just hang out with like-minded friends, or go to a club etc, or round a friends house and play on a computer, without being peer pressured into joining a gang??
Genuinely interested in the rationale.
The estate he lives is ruled by one of the most prevalent gangs in the area. They recruit from that estate and prey on kids who are vulnerable. Pretty much the moment you leave the flat you are approached. Therefore stay in and do not much or venture out knowing you’ll be targeted.
So he can go to play football or to his mate’s but on his return on the evening he is susceptible. Plus the tactics they use to entice youngsters are tempting to a kid who has nothing. They make you feel part of a ‘family’ that is more supportive than the one you live with.
Thank you.
So sad that those are the situations some find themselves in.
This leads me on to that if as you state, a high amount of black kids do get stopped and searched, how comes this is happening to all the ‘good’ kids who have done nothing wrong, whilst gangs openly going about their ‘gang life’ are evidently left alone by the police?
1.Are the police taking the easy option and stopping the easy targets? 2. Or are they scared of the inevitable accuations? That doesn’t make sense though if they are stopping so many good kids. 3. Why would any law abiding citizen want stop and search to stop on their community if it means these gangs might get caught, which would surely make the life of your example much better. 4. How do the police have enough funds and manpower to police football to the degree they do, but don’t to stop these gangs? I know what I think the bigger danger is!
I’ve said it many times before on here but the very fact a whole police force was acceptingly labelled as institutionally racist was a disgrace and has caused untold issues ever since and will forever more.
Stephens mother (supported by the likes of Dianna Abbot) whilst understandably grieving for a lost child has continued this vendetta and appears oblivious to the fact that her narrative and the weight it ridiculously carries, even now, causes more problems for the black community that any racist police force possibly did or could.
The very fact we now have an official ‘Stephen Lawrence day’ shows that the mood in this respect is a long way from ever changing.
I’ve said it many times before on here but the very fact a whole police force was acceptingly labelled as institutionally racist was a disgrace and has caused untold issues ever since and will forever more.
Stephens mother (supported by the likes of Dianna Abbot) whilst understandably grieving for a lost child has continued this vendetta and appears oblivious to the fact that her narrative and the weight it ridiculously carries, even now, causes more problems for the black community that any racist police force possibly did or could.
The very fact we now have an official ‘Stephen Lawrence day’ shows that the mood in this respect is a long way from ever changing.
You don't tend to hear about damilola Taylor as much do you.
We should adopt the USA way. They asked a black role model to speak at events and try to get the kids up and back to work. Stop wearing the silly low hanging trousers and stop listening to the violent music etc. Not sure what sort of success they had. Role model was Bill Cosby.
I grew up in South east London and went to school in New Cross. I still live in the same area and have two boys who are 12 and 15 who go to the local secondary school.
I am a deputy headteacher in a south east London secondary school which has students across the demographic.
I made a conscious decision that I would work in such a school and bring my children up in London.
I do not regret it one bit.
The black children I teach are subjected to stop and search on a regular basis. It is now part of their journey home. I do not not know of one child who had been found with anything illegal on them. Is this a racist approach? Course it is as it is based on their colour. The vast majority of these are good kids, very good kids. They want to do well in school and aspire to better themselves. Forget the notion that there is an anti boffin or anti geek culture in schools. There isn’t. They want to be in the top sets. They know the benefit of being hard working. These kids are in school on Saturdays and during holidays. For many education is seen as vital if they are to not replicate the lives of their parents.
I have no real solution to the current issues. It is far too complicated for there to be one solution. I am sure, however, that if many of the out of school evening opportunities that used to be provided had not seen huge funding reductions, more children would be engaged in activities that stimulated them and give them further opportunities to learn and pursue new interests.
This is now why schools like mine are open from 7am to 7pm. We provide revision areas, breakfast, basketball, boxing and fitness classes. We provide a safe and quiet place to study.
This costs us a lot of money but is so vital. The uptake for it is phenomenal.
My eldest son has a number of black friends who he socialises with. They are good lads and come from a range of different households. They are polite but of course have a cheekiness that most 15 year old boys have.
Only last week they all went to Sports Direct to buy swimming shorts. They were refused entry. They didn’t argue or make a scene. They are used to it. My son sees this and knows if he was with an all white group of friends he could go pretty much anywhere without fear of refused entry to a sports shop!
I think this gives my son a sense of how the world works. He sees injustice and I know it makes him a more rounded young man. He challenges prejudice and sees its effects.
Once a boy in my school told me he has two options in the evening. Either stay at home ( a one bedroom flat where he shares a bedroom with two brothers) or join a gang. Eventually the better option for him becomes pretty clear.
As I said earlier there is not an easy solution to this. But believe me there are many many good young people who, despite many obstacles, are trying to make something positive of their lives.
You make good points and offer a real and alternative perspective.
The second to last paragraph though I don’t understand. How are those the only two options of an evening? Are you (or he rather) implying that to just be outside the house would result in you being forced into being part of a gang?
He could not go and play football or any other sport, or just hang out with like-minded friends, or go to a club etc, or round a friends house and play on a computer, without being peer pressured into joining a gang??
Genuinely interested in the rationale.
The estate he lives is ruled by one of the most prevalent gangs in the area. They recruit from that estate and prey on kids who are vulnerable. Pretty much the moment you leave the flat you are approached. Therefore stay in and do not much or venture out knowing you’ll be targeted.
So he can go to play football or to his mate’s but on his return on the evening he is susceptible. Plus the tactics they use to entice youngsters are tempting to a kid who has nothing. They make you feel part of a ‘family’ that is more supportive than the one you live with.
The last line here is key - i ran a youth football team for many years and the white kids parents were there week in week out, supporting, paying their subs on time, dropping their kids off, picking them up, couldn't do enough - appreciated the time u put in to training etc etc - the black kids needed lifts to matches, never had the subs, dropped out to join other teams when it suited etc etc - their parents (mums) were at church, their dads were nowhere to be seen - i took a completely white team over and introduced a lot of black kids into it but the truth is they were hard work because they had zero parental support - that and the culture that goes hand in hand with that is the problem.
Kicking off again now, we about an hour ago, Kennington/Camberwell way, Brixton road. One lad shot, old bill saved his life, one lad with a bullet prove vest tazered and arrested. Others got away. Helicopters out.
This is london now mate nothing will change it
Reason I moved out. Always be a south London boy at heart but wouldn’t want to raise my kids there
I’ve said it many times before on here but the very fact a whole police force was acceptingly labelled as institutionally racist was a disgrace and has caused untold issues ever since and will forever more.
Stephens mother (supported by the likes of Dianna Abbot) whilst understandably grieving for a lost child has continued this vendetta and appears oblivious to the fact that her narrative and the weight it ridiculously carries, even now, causes more problems for the black community that any racist police force possibly did or could.
The very fact we now have an official ‘Stephen Lawrence day’ shows that the mood in this respect is a long way from ever changing.
I’ve said it many times before on here but the very fact a whole police force was acceptingly labelled as institutionally racist was a disgrace and has caused untold issues ever since and will forever more.
Stephens mother (supported by the likes of Dianna Abbot) whilst understandably grieving for a lost child has continued this vendetta and appears oblivious to the fact that her narrative and the weight it ridiculously carries, even now, causes more problems for the black community that any racist police force possibly did or could.
The very fact we now have an official ‘Stephen Lawrence day’ shows that the mood in this respect is a long way from ever changing.
You don't tend to hear about damilola Taylor as much do you.
I grew up in South east London and went to school in New Cross. I still live in the same area and have two boys who are 12 and 15 who go to the local secondary school.
I am a deputy headteacher in a south east London secondary school which has students across the demographic.
I made a conscious decision that I would work in such a school and bring my children up in London.
I do not regret it one bit.
The black children I teach are subjected to stop and search on a regular basis. It is now part of their journey home. I do not not know of one child who had been found with anything illegal on them. Is this a racist approach? Course it is as it is based on their colour. The vast majority of these are good kids, very good kids. They want to do well in school and aspire to better themselves. Forget the notion that there is an anti boffin or anti geek culture in schools. There isn’t. They want to be in the top sets. They know the benefit of being hard working. These kids are in school on Saturdays and during holidays. For many education is seen as vital if they are to not replicate the lives of their parents.
I have no real solution to the current issues. It is far too complicated for there to be one solution. I am sure, however, that if many of the out of school evening opportunities that used to be provided had not seen huge funding reductions, more children would be engaged in activities that stimulated them and give them further opportunities to learn and pursue new interests.
This is now why schools like mine are open from 7am to 7pm. We provide revision areas, breakfast, basketball, boxing and fitness classes. We provide a safe and quiet place to study.
This costs us a lot of money but is so vital. The uptake for it is phenomenal.
My eldest son has a number of black friends who he socialises with. They are good lads and come from a range of different households. They are polite but of course have a cheekiness that most 15 year old boys have.
Only last week they all went to Sports Direct to buy swimming shorts. They were refused entry. They didn’t argue or make a scene. They are used to it. My son sees this and knows if he was with an all white group of friends he could go pretty much anywhere without fear of refused entry to a sports shop!
I think this gives my son a sense of how the world works. He sees injustice and I know it makes him a more rounded young man. He challenges prejudice and sees its effects.
Once a boy in my school told me he has two options in the evening. Either stay at home ( a one bedroom flat where he shares a bedroom with two brothers) or join a gang. Eventually the better option for him becomes pretty clear.
As I said earlier there is not an easy solution to this. But believe me there are many many good young people who, despite many obstacles, are trying to make something positive of their lives.
You make good points and offer a real and alternative perspective.
The second to last paragraph though I don’t understand. How are those the only two options of an evening? Are you (or he rather) implying that to just be outside the house would result in you being forced into being part of a gang?
He could not go and play football or any other sport, or just hang out with like-minded friends, or go to a club etc, or round a friends house and play on a computer, without being peer pressured into joining a gang??
Genuinely interested in the rationale.
The estate he lives is ruled by one of the most prevalent gangs in the area. They recruit from that estate and prey on kids who are vulnerable. Pretty much the moment you leave the flat you are approached. Therefore stay in and do not much or venture out knowing you’ll be targeted.
So he can go to play football or to his mate’s but on his return on the evening he is susceptible. Plus the tactics they use to entice youngsters are tempting to a kid who has nothing. They make you feel part of a ‘family’ that is more supportive than the one you live with.
Thank you.
So sad that those are the situations some find themselves in.
This leads me on to that if as you state, a high amount of black kids do get stopped and searched, how comes this is happening to all the ‘good’ kids who have done nothing wrong, whilst gangs openly going about their ‘gang life’ are evidently left alone by the police?
1.Are the police taking the easy option and stopping the easy targets? 2. Or are they scared of the inevitable accuations? That doesn’t make sense though if they are stopping so many good kids. 3. Why would any law abiding citizen want stop and search to stop on their community if it means these gangs might get caught, which would surely make the life of your example much better. 4. How do the police have enough funds and manpower to police football to the degree they do, but don’t to stop these gangs? I know what I think the bigger danger is!
To answer in a general sense it is the younger kids who carry it look after weapons. I’m talking 10-12 year olds who are less likely to be seen as dangerous by the police.
Gangs operate about a five tier system. The guy at the top is often in his thirties. Below him will be men in their twenties, then male teens stopping at kids as young as 9. Females are involved but they are at the bottom of the chain often regardless of their age.
The guy at the top can be earning tens of thousands a week. Often the mid teens kids will run’county lines’. This is transferring drugs from London to the shires and Home Counties. I know of children of 13/14 who have been to Ipswich, Oxford, Bournemouth. They are housed therefor a few weeks before returning.
However, the police are not interested in spending time on these. It is only worth in their eyes going for the top dog.
In terms of stop and search too many decent kids are now getting a negative view of the police, the justice system and authority. They do not see the big picture, only that they are being stopped because of their skin colour. It is divisive and only creates more tension.
I’ve said it many times before on here but the very fact a whole police force was acceptingly labelled as institutionally racist was a disgrace and has caused untold issues ever since and will forever more.
Stephens mother (supported by the likes of Dianna Abbot) whilst understandably grieving for a lost child has continued this vendetta and appears oblivious to the fact that her narrative and the weight it ridiculously carries, even now, causes more problems for the black community that any racist police force possibly did or could.
The very fact we now have an official ‘Stephen Lawrence day’ shows that the mood in this respect is a long way from ever changing.
Before I write overmuch on my own views regarding crime/race relations in London, I'd like to point out it is extremely dangerous to say that the Met's institutional racism would be less problematic than Doreen Lawrence's efforts to hold authorities to account re said racism.
I grew up in South east London and went to school in New Cross. I still live in the same area and have two boys who are 12 and 15 who go to the local secondary school.
I am a deputy headteacher in a south east London secondary school which has students across the demographic.
I made a conscious decision that I would work in such a school and bring my children up in London.
I do not regret it one bit.
The black children I teach are subjected to stop and search on a regular basis. It is now part of their journey home. I do not not know of one child who had been found with anything illegal on them. Is this a racist approach? Course it is as it is based on their colour. The vast majority of these are good kids, very good kids. They want to do well in school and aspire to better themselves. Forget the notion that there is an anti boffin or anti geek culture in schools. There isn’t. They want to be in the top sets. They know the benefit of being hard working. These kids are in school on Saturdays and during holidays. For many education is seen as vital if they are to not replicate the lives of their parents.
I have no real solution to the current issues. It is far too complicated for there to be one solution. I am sure, however, that if many of the out of school evening opportunities that used to be provided had not seen huge funding reductions, more children would be engaged in activities that stimulated them and give them further opportunities to learn and pursue new interests.
This is now why schools like mine are open from 7am to 7pm. We provide revision areas, breakfast, basketball, boxing and fitness classes. We provide a safe and quiet place to study.
This costs us a lot of money but is so vital. The uptake for it is phenomenal.
My eldest son has a number of black friends who he socialises with. They are good lads and come from a range of different households. They are polite but of course have a cheekiness that most 15 year old boys have.
Only last week they all went to Sports Direct to buy swimming shorts. They were refused entry. They didn’t argue or make a scene. They are used to it. My son sees this and knows if he was with an all white group of friends he could go pretty much anywhere without fear of refused entry to a sports shop!
I think this gives my son a sense of how the world works. He sees injustice and I know it makes him a more rounded young man. He challenges prejudice and sees its effects.
Once a boy in my school told me he has two options in the evening. Either stay at home ( a one bedroom flat where he shares a bedroom with two brothers) or join a gang. Eventually the better option for him becomes pretty clear.
As I said earlier there is not an easy solution to this. But believe me there are many many good young people who, despite many obstacles, are trying to make something positive of their lives.
You make good points and offer a real and alternative perspective.
The second to last paragraph though I don’t understand. How are those the only two options of an evening? Are you (or he rather) implying that to just be outside the house would result in you being forced into being part of a gang?
He could not go and play football or any other sport, or just hang out with like-minded friends, or go to a club etc, or round a friends house and play on a computer, without being peer pressured into joining a gang??
Genuinely interested in the rationale.
The estate he lives is ruled by one of the most prevalent gangs in the area. They recruit from that estate and prey on kids who are vulnerable. Pretty much the moment you leave the flat you are approached. Therefore stay in and do not much or venture out knowing you’ll be targeted.
So he can go to play football or to his mate’s but on his return on the evening he is susceptible. Plus the tactics they use to entice youngsters are tempting to a kid who has nothing. They make you feel part of a ‘family’ that is more supportive than the one you live with.
Thank you.
So sad that those are the situations some find themselves in.
This leads me on to that if as you state, a high amount of black kids do get stopped and searched, how comes this is happening to all the ‘good’ kids who have done nothing wrong, whilst gangs openly going about their ‘gang life’ are evidently left alone by the police?
1.Are the police taking the easy option and stopping the easy targets? 2. Or are they scared of the inevitable accuations? That doesn’t make sense though if they are stopping so many good kids. 3. Why would any law abiding citizen want stop and search to stop on their community if it means these gangs might get caught, which would surely make the life of your example much better. 4. How do the police have enough funds and manpower to police football to the degree they do, but don’t to stop these gangs? I know what I think the bigger danger is!
To answer in a general sense it is the younger kids who carry it look after weapons. I’m talking 10-12 year olds who are less likely to be seen as dangerous by the police.
Gangs operate about a five tier system. The guy at the top is often in his thirties. Below him will be men in their twenties, then male teens stopping at kids as young as 9. Females are involved but they are at the bottom of the chain often regardless of their age.
The guy at the top can be earning tens of thousands a week. Often the mid teens kids will run’county lines’. This is transferring drugs from London to the shires and Home Counties. I know of children of 13/14 who have been to Ipswich, Oxford, Bournemouth. They are housed therefor a few weeks before returning.
However, the police are not interested in spending time on these. It is only worth in their eyes going for the top dog.
In terms of stop and search too many decent kids are now getting a negative view of the police, the justice system and authority. They do not see the big picture, only that they are being stopped because of their skin colour. It is divisive and only creates more tension.
Well surely its your role as a teacher to explain to them why they are being stopped, explain to them its for their sake and their mates, explain to them its to help keep them alive rather than just adopting the line all police are racist. Because I know for a fact that isn't true.
I’ve said it many times before on here but the very fact a whole police force was acceptingly labelled as institutionally racist was a disgrace and has caused untold issues ever since and will forever more.
Stephens mother (supported by the likes of Dianna Abbot) whilst understandably grieving for a lost child has continued this vendetta and appears oblivious to the fact that her narrative and the weight it ridiculously carries, even now, causes more problems for the black community that any racist police force possibly did or could.
The very fact we now have an official ‘Stephen Lawrence day’ shows that the mood in this respect is a long way from ever changing.
Before I write overmuch on my own views regarding crime/race relations in London, I'd like to point out it is extremely dangerous to say that the Met's institutional racism would be less problematic than Doreen Lawrence's efforts to hold authorities to account re said racism.
I'd rather the police weren't racist. Simple as.
In society you get racists so there will be racists within the police but just like society not all police are racist and for people to keep suggesting they are is just unhelpful
You make good points and offer a real and alternative perspective.
The second to last paragraph though I don’t understand. How are those the only two options of an evening? Are you (or he rather) implying that to just be outside the house would result in you being forced into being part of a gang?
He could not go and play football or any other sport, or just hang out with like-minded friends, or go to a club etc, or round a friends house and play on a computer, without being peer pressured into joining a gang??
Genuinely interested in the rationale.
The estate he lives is ruled by one of the most prevalent gangs in the area. They recruit from that estate and prey on kids who are vulnerable. Pretty much the moment you leave the flat you are approached. Therefore stay in and do not much or venture out knowing you’ll be targeted.
So he can go to play football or to his mate’s but on his return on the evening he is susceptible. Plus the tactics they use to entice youngsters are tempting to a kid who has nothing. They make you feel part of a ‘family’ that is more supportive than the one you live with.
Thank you.
So sad that those are the situations some find themselves in.
This leads me on to that if as you state, a high amount of black kids do get stopped and searched, how comes this is happening to all the ‘good’ kids who have done nothing wrong, whilst gangs openly going about their ‘gang life’ are evidently left alone by the police?
1.Are the police taking the easy option and stopping the easy targets? 2. Or are they scared of the inevitable accuations? That doesn’t make sense though if they are stopping so many good kids. 3. Why would any law abiding citizen want stop and search to stop on their community if it means these gangs might get caught, which would surely make the life of your example much better. 4. How do the police have enough funds and manpower to police football to the degree they do, but don’t to stop these gangs? I know what I think the bigger danger is!
To answer in a general sense it is the younger kids who carry it look after weapons. I’m talking 10-12 year olds who are less likely to be seen as dangerous by the police.
Gangs operate about a five tier system. The guy at the top is often in his thirties. Below him will be men in their twenties, then male teens stopping at kids as young as 9. Females are involved but they are at the bottom of the chain often regardless of their age.
The guy at the top can be earning tens of thousands a week. Often the mid teens kids will run’county lines’. This is transferring drugs from London to the shires and Home Counties. I know of children of 13/14 who have been to Ipswich, Oxford, Bournemouth. They are housed therefor a few weeks before returning.
However, the police are not interested in spending time on these. It is only worth in their eyes going for the top dog.
In terms of stop and search too many decent kids are now getting a negative view of the police, the justice system and authority. They do not see the big picture, only that they are being stopped because of their skin colour. It is divisive and only creates more tension.
Well surely its your role as a teacher to explain to them why they are being stopped, explain to them its for their sake and their mates, explain to them its to help keep them alive rather than just adopting the line all police are racist. Because I know for a fact that isn't true.
"If you're black, to stay alive you need to accept you'll be treated differently than your non-black peers, with activities like stop and search. As a white man, I am telling you this is not racist. However, your skin colour means this is being done."
Is that what you want SJH to say?
Of course, the flip side to this argument is "well it IS mainly a problem within black communities". And that's true. Deciding on a solution, however, is very difficult.
Do you racially profile, arguing it is necessary, and target black communities that already feel marginalised, "for their own and for the greater good", as it were? (Personally, I don't think so.)
How can we get to the bottom of addressing the problem of racial tension? (I have no real idea. But tension is there, and it goes back to historic, endemic, and still-present racism.)
Do we decriminalise drugs (in particular, IMO, cannabis) to make this less of a problem? (Personally, I believe so.)
-------------------
There is no easy way to answer any of these questions, but a lot of people here are suggesting "be harsher" in myriad aspects, and I think that would lead to a far more problematic situation, exacerbating racial tensions. So I am inclined to go for a decriminalisation/amnesty type solution, though I'm not sure what it would be.
I’ve said it many times before on here but the very fact a whole police force was acceptingly labelled as institutionally racist was a disgrace and has caused untold issues ever since and will forever more.
Stephens mother (supported by the likes of Dianna Abbot) whilst understandably grieving for a lost child has continued this vendetta and appears oblivious to the fact that her narrative and the weight it ridiculously carries, even now, causes more problems for the black community that any racist police force possibly did or could.
The very fact we now have an official ‘Stephen Lawrence day’ shows that the mood in this respect is a long way from ever changing.
Before I write overmuch on my own views regarding crime/race relations in London, I'd like to point out it is extremely dangerous to say that the Met's institutional racism would be less problematic than Doreen Lawrence's efforts to hold authorities to account re said racism.
I'd rather the police weren't racist. Simple as.
In society you get racists so there will be racists within the police but just like society not all police are racist and for people to keep suggesting they are is just unhelpful
Then why does stop and search pretty much exclusively happen to black people?
NB This is something I see as racist. If you (and by you, I don't mean -you- NLA in isolation, but people in general) don't think this is racist, then we probably have world views that are a bit too different to having meaningful discourse around on a football forum and I'd like to respectively check out at this juncture
I grew up in South east London and went to school in New Cross. I still live in the same area and have two boys who are 12 and 15 who go to the local secondary school.
I am a deputy headteacher in a south east London secondary school which has students across the demographic.
I made a conscious decision that I would work in such a school and bring my children up in London.
I do not regret it one bit.
The black children I teach are subjected to stop and search on a regular basis. It is now part of their journey home. I do not not know of one child who had been found with anything illegal on them. Is this a racist approach? Course it is as it is based on their colour. The vast majority of these are good kids, very good kids. They want to do well in school and aspire to better themselves. Forget the notion that there is an anti boffin or anti geek culture in schools. There isn’t. They want to be in the top sets. They know the benefit of being hard working. These kids are in school on Saturdays and during holidays. For many education is seen as vital if they are to not replicate the lives of their parents.
I have no real solution to the current issues. It is far too complicated for there to be one solution. I am sure, however, that if many of the out of school evening opportunities that used to be provided had not seen huge funding reductions, more children would be engaged in activities that stimulated them and give them further opportunities to learn and pursue new interests.
This is now why schools like mine are open from 7am to 7pm. We provide revision areas, breakfast, basketball, boxing and fitness classes. We provide a safe and quiet place to study.
This costs us a lot of money but is so vital. The uptake for it is phenomenal.
My eldest son has a number of black friends who he socialises with. They are good lads and come from a range of different households. They are polite but of course have a cheekiness that most 15 year old boys have.
Only last week they all went to Sports Direct to buy swimming shorts. They were refused entry. They didn’t argue or make a scene. They are used to it. My son sees this and knows if he was with an all white group of friends he could go pretty much anywhere without fear of refused entry to a sports shop!
I think this gives my son a sense of how the world works. He sees injustice and I know it makes him a more rounded young man. He challenges prejudice and sees its effects.
Once a boy in my school told me he has two options in the evening. Either stay at home ( a one bedroom flat where he shares a bedroom with two brothers) or join a gang. Eventually the better option for him becomes pretty clear.
As I said earlier there is not an easy solution to this. But believe me there are many many good young people who, despite many obstacles, are trying to make something positive of their lives.
You make good points and offer a real and alternative perspective.
The second to last paragraph though I don’t understand. How are those the only two options of an evening? Are you (or he rather) implying that to just be outside the house would result in you being forced into being part of a gang?
He could not go and play football or any other sport, or just hang out with like-minded friends, or go to a club etc, or round a friends house and play on a computer, without being peer pressured into joining a gang??
Genuinely interested in the rationale.
The estate he lives is ruled by one of the most prevalent gangs in the area. They recruit from that estate and prey on kids who are vulnerable. Pretty much the moment you leave the flat you are approached. Therefore stay in and do not much or venture out knowing you’ll be targeted.
So he can go to play football or to his mate’s but on his return on the evening he is susceptible. Plus the tactics they use to entice youngsters are tempting to a kid who has nothing. They make you feel part of a ‘family’ that is more supportive than the one you live with.
Thank you.
So sad that those are the situations some find themselves in.
This leads me on to that if as you state, a high amount of black kids do get stopped and searched, how comes this is happening to all the ‘good’ kids who have done nothing wrong, whilst gangs openly going about their ‘gang life’ are evidently left alone by the police?
1.Are the police taking the easy option and stopping the easy targets? 2. Or are they scared of the inevitable accuations? That doesn’t make sense though if they are stopping so many good kids. 3. Why would any law abiding citizen want stop and search to stop on their community if it means these gangs might get caught, which would surely make the life of your example much better. 4. How do the police have enough funds and manpower to police football to the degree they do, but don’t to stop these gangs? I know what I think the bigger danger is!
To answer in a general sense it is the younger kids who carry it look after weapons. I’m talking 10-12 year olds who are less likely to be seen as dangerous by the police.
Gangs operate about a five tier system. The guy at the top is often in his thirties. Below him will be men in their twenties, then male teens stopping at kids as young as 9. Females are involved but they are at the bottom of the chain often regardless of their age.
The guy at the top can be earning tens of thousands a week. Often the mid teens kids will run’county lines’. This is transferring drugs from London to the shires and Home Counties. I know of children of 13/14 who have been to Ipswich, Oxford, Bournemouth. They are housed therefor a few weeks before returning.
However, the police are not interested in spending time on these. It is only worth in their eyes going for the top dog.
In terms of stop and search too many decent kids are now getting a negative view of the police, the justice system and authority. They do not see the big picture, only that they are being stopped because of their skin colour. It is divisive and only creates more tension.
Well surely its your role as a teacher to explain to them why they are being stopped, explain to them its for their sake and their mates, explain to them its to help keep them alive rather than just adopting the line all police are racist. Because I know for a fact that isn't true.
Where have I said all police are racist? I haven’t said that once. I work closely with the police and have a great regard for many of them. You need to retract that.
Of course I explain why it’s done. I understand the rationale as do they. That doesn’t make it easy to explain to a kid who has done no wrong thatvhe has been stopped because of his colour.
I have deliberately made my posts on this thread as non political as I can because sensible and balanced posts prompt appropriate and important discussion.
You assuming my posts are about adopting the line that all police are racist is wide of the mark and undeserved.
I grew up in South east London and went to school in New Cross. I still live in the same area and have two boys who are 12 and 15 who go to the local secondary school.
I am a deputy headteacher in a south east London secondary school which has students across the demographic.
I made a conscious decision that I would work in such a school and bring my children up in London.
I do not regret it one bit.
The black children I teach are subjected to stop and search on a regular basis. It is now part of their journey home. I do not not know of one child who had been found with anything illegal on them. Is this a racist approach? Course it is as it is based on their colour. The vast majority of these are good kids, very good kids. They want to do well in school and aspire to better themselves. Forget the notion that there is an anti boffin or anti geek culture in schools. There isn’t. They want to be in the top sets. They know the benefit of being hard working. These kids are in school on Saturdays and during holidays. For many education is seen as vital if they are to not replicate the lives of their parents.
I have no real solution to the current issues. It is far too complicated for there to be one solution. I am sure, however, that if many of the out of school evening opportunities that used to be provided had not seen huge funding reductions, more children would be engaged in activities that stimulated them and give them further opportunities to learn and pursue new interests.
This is now why schools like mine are open from 7am to 7pm. We provide revision areas, breakfast, basketball, boxing and fitness classes. We provide a safe and quiet place to study.
This costs us a lot of money but is so vital. The uptake for it is phenomenal.
My eldest son has a number of black friends who he socialises with. They are good lads and come from a range of different households. They are polite but of course have a cheekiness that most 15 year old boys have.
Only last week they all went to Sports Direct to buy swimming shorts. They were refused entry. They didn’t argue or make a scene. They are used to it. My son sees this and knows if he was with an all white group of friends he could go pretty much anywhere without fear of refused entry to a sports shop!
I think this gives my son a sense of how the world works. He sees injustice and I know it makes him a more rounded young man. He challenges prejudice and sees its effects.
Once a boy in my school told me he has two options in the evening. Either stay at home ( a one bedroom flat where he shares a bedroom with two brothers) or join a gang. Eventually the better option for him becomes pretty clear.
As I said earlier there is not an easy solution to this. But believe me there are many many good young people who, despite many obstacles, are trying to make something positive of their lives.
You make good points and offer a real and alternative perspective.
The second to last paragraph though I don’t understand. How are those the only two options of an evening? Are you (or he rather) implying that to just be outside the house would result in you being forced into being part of a gang?
He could not go and play football or any other sport, or just hang out with like-minded friends, or go to a club etc, or round a friends house and play on a computer, without being peer pressured into joining a gang??
Genuinely interested in the rationale.
The estate he lives is ruled by one of the most prevalent gangs in the area. They recruit from that estate and prey on kids who are vulnerable. Pretty much the moment you leave the flat you are approached. Therefore stay in and do not much or venture out knowing you’ll be targeted.
So he can go to play football or to his mate’s but on his return on the evening he is susceptible. Plus the tactics they use to entice youngsters are tempting to a kid who has nothing. They make you feel part of a ‘family’ that is more supportive than the one you live with.
Thank you.
So sad that those are the situations some find themselves in.
This leads me on to that if as you state, a high amount of black kids do get stopped and searched, how comes this is happening to all the ‘good’ kids who have done nothing wrong, whilst gangs openly going about their ‘gang life’ are evidently left alone by the police?
1.Are the police taking the easy option and stopping the easy targets? 2. Or are they scared of the inevitable accuations? That doesn’t make sense though if they are stopping so many good kids. 3. Why would any law abiding citizen want stop and search to stop on their community if it means these gangs might get caught, which would surely make the life of your example much better. 4. How do the police have enough funds and manpower to police football to the degree they do, but don’t to stop these gangs? I know what I think the bigger danger is!
To answer in a general sense it is the younger kids who carry it look after weapons. I’m talking 10-12 year olds who are less likely to be seen as dangerous by the police.
Gangs operate about a five tier system. The guy at the top is often in his thirties. Below him will be men in their twenties, then male teens stopping at kids as young as 9. Females are involved but they are at the bottom of the chain often regardless of their age.
The guy at the top can be earning tens of thousands a week. Often the mid teens kids will run’county lines’. This is transferring drugs from London to the shires and Home Counties. I know of children of 13/14 who have been to Ipswich, Oxford, Bournemouth. They are housed therefor a few weeks before returning.
However, the police are not interested in spending time on these. It is only worth in their eyes going for the top dog.
In terms of stop and search too many decent kids are now getting a negative view of the police, the justice system and authority. They do not see the big picture, only that they are being stopped because of their skin colour. It is divisive and only creates more tension.
Well surely its your role as a teacher to explain to them why they are being stopped, explain to them its for their sake and their mates, explain to them its to help keep them alive rather than just adopting the line all police are racist. Because I know for a fact that isn't true.
It's the parents role, surely?
Teachers are paid to educate our children, not raise them.
Apologies mate - my bad drafting and certainly didn't mean to imply you thought all police were racist.
The point I was trying to make is that teachers are in a good position to try and explain to black kids why they are being stopped. I accept its not easy to explain to a kid who has done no wrong that he has been stopped because of his colour. But at the end of the day, its black kids killing other black kids. So the police have clearly got to target black kids. To pretend otherwise is just daft.
I accept it can't be easy for an innocent kid to be stopped by the police. But the police are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They can't win. And in fact the only way they can win is if all communities get behind them. And we are miles away from that happening here.
Apologies mate - my bad drafting and certainly didn't mean to imply you thought all police were racist.
The point I was trying to make is that teachers are in a good position to try and explain to black kids why they are being stopped. I accept its not easy to explain to a kid who has done no wrong that he has been stopped because of his colour. But at the end of the day, its black kids killing other black kids. So the police have clearly got to target black kids. To pretend otherwise is just daft.
I accept it can't be easy for an innocent kid to be stopped by the police. But the police are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They can't win. And in fact the only way they can win is if all communities get behind them. And we are miles away from that happening here.
(PS Can't get the quote thing to work)
No problem.
I know of a number of police officers who feel uncomfortable doing it. They know it can raise tensions so do attempt it in a reasonable and non threatening way.
It’s a sad indictment as to where we are as a society. It’s a typical let’s ‘get tough’ approach to something whilst ignoring much of the societal issues that contribute to it in the first place.
As a teacher I always have blunt conversations with children and their parents. I know I have a duty to teach more than a curriculum and believe me it is something I attach huge importance to.
I tell them not to wear hoodies. I tell them not to go round in large groups. I tell them to not loiter and be loud. I tell them these things not because they are a danger to society but that this plays into certain stereotypes of young people. People who make judgements based on looks or clothing or anything else that conforms to a stereotype of a young black male.
Many of them get this, but others won’t or believe they shouldn’t have to do so as it’s the people with those hang ups that have the problem.
I’ve said it many times before on here but the very fact a whole police force was acceptingly labelled as institutionally racist was a disgrace and has caused untold issues ever since and will forever more.
Stephens mother (supported by the likes of Dianna Abbot) whilst understandably grieving for a lost child has continued this vendetta and appears oblivious to the fact that her narrative and the weight it ridiculously carries, even now, causes more problems for the black community that any racist police force possibly did or could.
The very fact we now have an official ‘Stephen Lawrence day’ shows that the mood in this respect is a long way from ever changing.
Before I write overmuch on my own views regarding crime/race relations in London, I'd like to point out it is extremely dangerous to say that the Met's institutional racism would be less problematic than Doreen Lawrence's efforts to hold authorities to account re said racism.
I'd rather the police weren't racist. Simple as.
In society you get racists so there will be racists within the police but just like society not all police are racist and for people to keep suggesting they are is just unhelpful
Apologies - I wrote that lazily. I absolutely don't think every police officer is racist. But police officers are in *much* more of a position to enable racism, so if any of them are indeed racist, it's more problematic than the average person in society being racist.
And as logic trains go, yours isn't helpful, either. Racism - wherever it is, and however prevalent it is - is a MASSIVE problem and that's exacerbated when found in authority institutions. We need to root that out, too. I can't just "accept" racism.
Used to go to a boxing club in Bellingham and the kids session finished before there were about 30 kids from the local estates from ages 8 to 16.
Positive role models, safe environment to learn discipline and structure and vent out controlled aggression with good older male role models running things. Was a great family atmosphere and kept a number of youngsters off the streets for 3 nights at week and given a sense of self esteem , self worth and aspiration.
Pretty much closed down as the founder couldn't cover the rent due to the subsidised nominal fees he'd charge and as far as I know it petered out from what it was.
My dad was in kings after an op and they brought a lad in from the club who had been stabbed and was in the bed next to him and they got chatting and that's how he knew he was from the club.
For the sake of a few grand a year councils like Lewisham could pay the rents on boxing gyms and sports facilities as an investment in its communities and youngsters lives who would get exposure to positive mindsets and culture that boxing and other sports engender and keep them away from the alternatives on offer in areas like many parts of modern London.
However you want to view this - if you want to regard it as racism, lack of parents, or any other reason/excuse , this has been a problem that has been growing for many decades. Its a problem that most normal,educated,respectful people have seen coming for a long time - and have been rejecting slowly over those decades too.
When I go to the O2 , and see that to enter a restaurant/bar you have to go through a metal detector - I mean, wtf.!
People have had enough of believing that the police are able to deal with this- they believe most of their powers have been taken away from them, and that any 'solution' will be temporary and only papering over the cracks as usual,that they think the only way to protect/look after their children is to move away.
Might be a big statement, but to me , the country is buggered, its something that cannot be reversed and will only get worse.That is why so many have resorted to leaving the UK.They have come to that realisation.
Many people, when they hear me say that I have lived in South Africa say, 'wow, wasn't it dangerous?' are a bit surprised when I say that ' I feel safer in Cape Town than I do in London' - and the really sad about it is that its the truth.
I'd rather Playstations and the internet weren't described as 'feminising'. I agree that being raised by a screen is harmful, but so is the notion that male children without father-figures are being 'feminised'. Call it what it really is: neglected.
That’s exactly what needs to happen RCT and it’s what does happen in certain places still ,
Basing stop and search to a profile of those causing the majority of the problems is not racist
The fact that the majority of these crimes are caused by black youths then there is little point stopping white youths unless they are with the black youths which I am sure is happening
I watched a program about blacker dred someone who I have known for many years and during the program there was a memorial for a youth murdred in Brixton
A 15 yr old boy stood in front a group of adults and said something that resonated with me
I can’t recall it word for word but it was in and around the fact that we (black people) go on about race and racism yet we don’t respect ourselves enough we don’t respect our own heritage and colour because if we did we would not kill ourselves in this way
Now the racism that exists in this country has subsided from when I was a kid but there is still some who are racist and there always will be but racism runs all ways through our society I have heard it from black Jamaicans about Africans I have heard it from Ukrainians to Russians , English to Scottish
But right now black kids are killing black kids at a rate of knots and there is a real resistance to confronting it and that’s coming from within the same communities that are suffering the most
And that is born of a more dangerous ignorance to colour prejudice than they realise
Is there a great deal of difference between stop and search, to having a CCTV camera aimed at you when you get of a train for an away game? This has been going on for years to mainly white people. Whether you pat down my clothing, or monitor my movements at a football match, are both not an invasion of privacy?
Comments
So sad that those are the situations some find themselves in.
This leads me on to that if as you state, a high amount of black kids do get stopped and searched, how comes this is happening to all the ‘good’ kids who have done nothing wrong, whilst gangs openly going about their ‘gang life’ are evidently left alone by the police?
1.Are the police taking the easy option and stopping the easy targets?
2. Or are they scared of the inevitable accuations? That doesn’t make sense though if they are stopping so many good kids.
3. Why would any law abiding citizen want stop and search to stop on their community if it means these gangs might get caught, which would surely make the life of your example much better.
4. How do the police have enough funds and manpower to police football to the degree they do, but don’t to stop these gangs? I know what I think the bigger danger is!
Gangs operate about a five tier system. The guy at the top is often in his thirties. Below him will be men in their twenties, then male teens stopping at kids as young as 9. Females are involved but they are at the bottom of the chain often regardless of their age.
The guy at the top can be earning tens of thousands a week. Often the mid teens kids will run’county lines’. This is transferring drugs from London to the shires and Home Counties. I know of children of 13/14 who have been to Ipswich, Oxford, Bournemouth. They are housed therefor a few weeks before returning.
However, the police are not interested in spending time on these. It is only worth in their eyes going for the top dog.
In terms of stop and search too many decent kids are now getting a negative view of the police, the justice system and authority. They do not see the big picture, only that they are being stopped because of their skin colour. It is divisive and only creates more tension.
I'd rather the police weren't racist. Simple as.
Is that what you want SJH to say?
Of course, the flip side to this argument is "well it IS mainly a problem within black communities". And that's true. Deciding on a solution, however, is very difficult.
Do you racially profile, arguing it is necessary, and target black communities that already feel marginalised, "for their own and for the greater good", as it were? (Personally, I don't think so.)
How can we get to the bottom of addressing the problem of racial tension? (I have no real idea. But tension is there, and it goes back to historic, endemic, and still-present racism.)
Do we decriminalise drugs (in particular, IMO, cannabis) to make this less of a problem? (Personally, I believe so.)
-------------------
There is no easy way to answer any of these questions, but a lot of people here are suggesting "be harsher" in myriad aspects, and I think that would lead to a far more problematic situation, exacerbating racial tensions. So I am inclined to go for a decriminalisation/amnesty type solution, though I'm not sure what it would be.
NB This is something I see as racist. If you (and by you, I don't mean -you- NLA in isolation, but people in general) don't think this is racist, then we probably have world views that are a bit too different to having meaningful discourse around on a football forum and I'd like to respectively check out at this juncture
Of course I explain why it’s done. I understand the rationale as do they. That doesn’t make it easy to explain to a kid who has done no wrong thatvhe has been stopped because of his colour.
I have deliberately made my posts on this thread as non political as I can because sensible and balanced posts prompt appropriate and important discussion.
You assuming my posts are about adopting the line that all police are racist is wide of the mark and undeserved.
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/mar/15/black-boys-too-feminised-fathers
Teachers are paid to educate our children, not raise them.
Sensationalised crud as nothing else 'newsworthy' going on.
Turn the page.
Apologies mate - my bad drafting and certainly didn't mean to imply you thought all police were racist.
The point I was trying to make is that teachers are in a good position to try and explain to black kids why they are being stopped. I accept its not easy to explain to a kid who has done no wrong that he has been stopped because of his colour. But at the end of the day, its black kids killing other black kids. So the police have clearly got to target black kids. To pretend otherwise is just daft.
I accept it can't be easy for an innocent kid to be stopped by the police. But the police are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They can't win. And in fact the only way they can win is if all communities get behind them. And we are miles away from that happening here.
(PS Can't get the quote thing to work)
I know of a number of police officers who feel uncomfortable doing it. They know it can raise tensions so do attempt it in a reasonable and non threatening way.
It’s a sad indictment as to where we are as a society. It’s a typical let’s ‘get tough’ approach to something whilst ignoring much of the societal issues that contribute to it in the first place.
As a teacher I always have blunt conversations with children and their parents. I know I have a duty to teach more than a curriculum and believe me it is something I attach huge importance to.
I tell them not to wear hoodies. I tell them not to go round in large groups. I tell them to not loiter and be loud. I tell them these things not because they are a danger to society but that this plays into certain stereotypes of young people. People who make judgements based on looks or clothing or anything else that conforms to a stereotype of a young black male.
Many of them get this, but others won’t or believe they shouldn’t have to do so as it’s the people with those hang ups that have the problem.
And as logic trains go, yours isn't helpful, either. Racism - wherever it is, and however prevalent it is - is a MASSIVE problem and that's exacerbated when found in authority institutions. We need to root that out, too. I can't just "accept" racism.
Positive role models, safe environment to learn discipline and structure and vent out controlled aggression with good older male role models running things. Was a great family atmosphere and kept a number of youngsters off the streets for 3 nights at week and given a sense of self esteem , self worth and aspiration.
Pretty much closed down as the founder couldn't cover the rent due to the subsidised nominal fees he'd charge and as far as I know it petered out from what it was.
My dad was in kings after an op and they brought a lad in from the club who had been stabbed and was in the bed next to him and they got chatting and that's how he knew he was from the club.
For the sake of a few grand a year councils like Lewisham could pay the rents on boxing gyms and sports facilities as an investment in its communities and youngsters lives who would get exposure to positive mindsets and culture that boxing and other sports engender and keep them away from the alternatives on offer in areas like many parts of modern London.
When I go to the O2 , and see that to enter a restaurant/bar you have to go through a metal detector - I mean, wtf.!
People have had enough of believing that the police are able to deal with this- they believe most of their powers have been taken away from them, and that any 'solution' will be temporary and only papering over the cracks as usual,that they think the only way to protect/look after their children is to move away.
Might be a big statement, but to me , the country is buggered, its something that cannot be reversed and will only get worse.That is why so many have resorted to leaving the UK.They have come to that realisation.
Many people, when they hear me say that I have lived in South Africa say, 'wow, wasn't it dangerous?' are a bit surprised when I say that ' I feel safer in Cape Town than I do in London' - and the really sad about it is that its the truth.
Basing stop and search to a profile of those causing the majority of the problems is not racist
The fact that the majority of these crimes are caused by black youths then there is little point stopping white youths unless they are with the black youths which I am sure is happening
I watched a program about blacker dred someone who I have known for many years and during the program there was a memorial for a youth murdred in Brixton
A 15 yr old boy stood in front a group of adults and said something that resonated with me
I can’t recall it word for word but it was in and around the fact that we (black people) go on about race and racism yet we don’t respect ourselves enough we don’t respect our own heritage and colour because if we did we would not kill ourselves in this way
Now the racism that exists in this country has subsided from when I was a kid but there is still some who are racist and there always will be but racism runs all ways through our society I have heard it from black Jamaicans about Africans I have heard it from Ukrainians to Russians , English to Scottish
But right now black kids are killing black kids at a rate of knots and there is a real resistance to confronting it and that’s coming from within the same communities that are suffering the most
And that is born of a more dangerous ignorance to colour prejudice than they realise
Whether you pat down my clothing, or monitor my movements at a football match, are both not an invasion of privacy?