Just for the sake of clarity, "innocent until proven guilty" as a concept has only very limited application. It really only applies after criminal charges have been brought and the burden of proof is said to lie with the prosecution. But this is an over-simplification of the situation these days.
To an extent we are all unfairly discriminated against.
In the simplest of terms a motorist has no rights with regard to speed camera prosecutions. You have no right to silence and are required on the form accompanying the NIP to incriminate yourself (or someone else). "No comment"? You're having a laugh!
There's plenty of other similar bits of legislation which has been on the statute books for some while.
A more complex example would be the UK's financial services legislation. In that legislation misleading a FCA investigator, not providing documentation requested or merely refusing to answer questions is an offence which can get you gaol time (S177 FSMA 2000).
The authoritarian nature of such legislation gets the job done though, so S177 prosecutions are extremely rare. (The plod often look on longingly when you tell them about these powers.)
Others have long had similar draconian powers. It often comes as a shock to MPs that bodies other than the police have more (and better or worse depending on your point of view) powers than the constabulary. This is strange, as MPs are the very people that come up with the legislation in the first place. Customs officers are an obvious example. No warrant needed to check your bags. And don't expect anyone to consider you are innocent at a "red diesel" checkpoint until such time as they've actually checked the contents of your fuel tank.
Then there's RIPA 2000. That gives some 50-odd separate authorities (I'm counting all local authorities as just one for this purpose) the powers to do things such as harvest details about communications data (but not the data themselves) and carry out directed surveillance and use undercover officers. RIPA applies not just to suspected (or actual) criminal matters but to such abstract concepts as being "in the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom".
I'm afraid that the phrase the Americans are fond of - the land of the free - was an idea that has evaporated into the ether as soon as sophisticated methods of communication, mobile phones, social media, and emails, etc became the norm. Oppressive investigation or even in this case aggressive immigration policy is, I'm afraid, the quid pro quo to allowing us free use of the devices, etc now available to us.
It is of course profoundly wrong that some people have been erroneously caught up in the over-zealous application of the legislation mingled with more than a hint of the general all-round incompetence that the UK Border Force are renown for. It is also profoundly correct that the matter needs sorting in short order.
The complexity of the age we live in will continue to be a mixed blessing. Particularly when the computer says no.
You won't like this suggestion but the UK has the autonomy to 'kick out' Commonwealth citizens but cannot do the same to those citizens who have arrived via the EU.
All governments of whatever shade love to bully weak, vulnerable, elderly soft targets. Windrush citizens, being mainly poor, elderly and working class fall into this category and can be kicked out without upsetting our EU Masters in order to try to hoodwink the general public that the government is being 'tough' on immigration. Cynical politicing at its worst.
Len, we won't like it, cos it is absolute cobblers. Don't shoehorn your EU paranoia into this thread.
I think the main consensus, on here and the in the rest of the world, is that the authorities should use other means to identify the folk affected by this admin error, whether that's NI history, housing history, benefits history. But the OP seems intent on confronting and splitting hairs on everyone's opinion, even though they are largely in agreement with each other.
Regarding blame, who cares? It seems like 6 of one and half a dozen of the other
The sinister aspect of May's blatant racism towards (all) immigrants is that as others have alluded to, HMG had the means of checking residency. Tax/NI history, DVLA, libraries, hospitals, schools etc. But May's incidious legislation put the onus on the victim to prove residency
The sinister aspect of May's blatant racism towards (all) immigrants is that as others have alluded to, HMG had the means of checking residency. Tax/NI history, DVLA, libraries, hospitals, schools etc. But May's incidious legislation put the onus on the victim to prove residency
According to some on here there is no Racism in Britain.
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
Hi @Leuth , I know you're not one to raise a question, receive an answer that didn't fit in with your preconceived bias and then run away from the topic with your arms flailing in thin air.
In view of your straight down the line, honest, approach to everything can you let me know if my credentials pass your credibility check?
The sinister aspect of May's blatant racism towards (all) immigrants is that as others have alluded to, HMG had the means of checking residency. Tax/NI history, DVLA, libraries, hospitals, schools etc. But May's incidious legislation put the onus on the victim to prove residency
She’s blatantly racist to all immigrants? Interesting.....I did not know this.
The sinister aspect of May's blatant racism towards (all) immigrants is that as others have alluded to, HMG had the means of checking residency. Tax/NI history, DVLA, libraries, hospitals, schools etc. But May's incidious legislation put the onus on the victim to prove residency
She’s blatantly racist to all immigrants? Interesting.....I did not know this.
Good to see old Diane Abbot banging on about it and blaming all and sundry saying this had been known about for years. Begs the question then why did Labour not sort it out when last in Government. Easy to blame others eh Diane.
Find it all a bit strange to be honest. I mean how did they get National Insurance numbers without the proper paperwork?
Good old selective protester Diane, the woman who asked a member of the IRA Birmingham pub bombing family/campaigners for justice “what do you people want....money?”
There are loads of other threads on which to vent your dislike of specific politicians. So, in order not to drag this one - about a present issue - can you confine comments to the Windrush scandal specifically and what should be done to rectify and atone for the issue in general?
quite how you as a poster can come out with this when you hijack nearly every slightly political/risque subject and dish out flags to everyone posting on it is slightly hypocritical IMO
I have simply asked that this thread - like so many others - doesn't fall foul of the typical malaise that hits many other threads, ie posters simply using it as a means of attacking people they don't like (hey, guess what? We know some people are scared of Diane Abbot already, we don't need reminding). It would be great if it could stay on track. We don't need another thread that demonstrates we (Lifers) are unable to debate an issue carefully, thoughtfully and with a measure of compassion.
I don't "hijack nearly every slightly political / risque subject" although I agree that to do so wouldn't be helpful. And I certainly don't "dish out flags to everyone". I do flag posts that demonstrate deliberate or accidental racism and will continue to do so.
So, back to Windrush. Do you think Theresa May and Amber Rudd should lose their jobs? Or are you happy that no-one needs to be accountable for failures that impact the lives of British people?
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
Hi @Leuth , I know you're not one to raise a question, receive an answer that didn't fit in with your preconceived bias and then run away from the topic with your arms flailing in thin air.
In view of your straight down the line, honest, approach to everything can you let me know if my credentials pass your credibility check?
It's been eating away at me all night.
You claimed to be close to members of the Windrush generation, but then ended your post by claiming that any criticism of the Tories is completely unjustified.
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
Hi @Leuth , I know you're not one to raise a question, receive an answer that didn't fit in with your preconceived bias and then run away from the topic with your arms flailing in thin air.
In view of your straight down the line, honest, approach to everything can you let me know if my credentials pass your credibility check?
It's been eating away at me all night.
You claimed to be close to members of the Windrush generation, but then ended your post by claiming that any criticism of the Tories is completely unjustified.
Based on this, I consider you an outright liar.
My response was/is based on the conversations I've had with people who are directly affected or have relatives that are affected. Would you rather me not have had those conversations and, instead, take the thoughts and opinions of a privileged, white, glorified support teacher as being representative of them?
Also, nice twisting but I never said that any criticism of the Tories was completely unjustified. I said it's a shame that political activism can't be put to one side when it's unjustifiable.
Good to see old Diane Abbot banging on about it and blaming all and sundry saying this had been known about for years. Begs the question then why did Labour not sort it out when last in Government. Easy to blame others eh Diane.
Find it all a bit strange to be honest. I mean how did they get National Insurance numbers without the proper paperwork?
Good old selective protester Diane, the woman who asked a member of the IRA Birmingham pub bombing family/campaigners for justice “what do you people want....money?”
There are loads of other threads on which to vent your dislike of specific politicians. So, in order not to drag this one - about a present issue - can you confine comments to the Windrush scandal specifically and what should be done to rectify and atone for the issue in general?
quite how you as a poster can come out with this when you hijack nearly every slightly political/risque subject and dish out flags to everyone posting on it is slightly hypocritical IMO
I have simply asked that this thread - like so many others - doesn't fall foul of the typical malaise that hits many other threads, ie posters simply using it as a means of attacking people they don't like (hey, guess what? We know some people are scared of Diane Abbot already, we don't need reminding). It would be great if it could stay on track. We don't need another thread that demonstrates we (Lifers) are unable to debate an issue carefully, thoughtfully and with a measure of compassion.
I don't "hijack nearly every slightly political / risque subject" although I agree that to do so wouldn't be helpful. And I certainly don't "dish out flags to everyone". I do flag posts that demonstrate deliberate or accidental racism and will continue to do so.
So, back to Windrush. Do you think Theresa May and Amber Rudd should lose their jobs? Or are you happy that no-one needs to be accountable for failures that impact the lives of British people?
No I do not think they should lose their jobs over it as there are too many mucky dirty hands that have touched it and been aware of it and done nothing about it
The treatment of the people affected is abhorrent but to say May must go because of her Policy to make it a hostile environment for illegal immigrants has resulted in this is not justified reason as I agree that we need to make it a much more harder country to hide in
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
Hi @Leuth , I know you're not one to raise a question, receive an answer that didn't fit in with your preconceived bias and then run away from the topic with your arms flailing in thin air.
In view of your straight down the line, honest, approach to everything can you let me know if my credentials pass your credibility check?
It's been eating away at me all night.
You claimed to be close to members of the Windrush generation, but then ended your post by claiming that any criticism of the Tories is completely unjustified.
Based on this, I consider you an outright liar.
My response was/is based on the conversations I've had with people who are directly affected or have relatives that are affected. Would you rather me not have had those conversations and, instead, take the thoughts and opinions of a privileged, white, glorified support teacher as being representative of them?
Also, nice twisting but I never said that any criticism of the Tories was completely unjustified. I said it's a shame that political activism can't be put to one side when it's unjustifiable.
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
Hi @Leuth , I know you're not one to raise a question, receive an answer that didn't fit in with your preconceived bias and then run away from the topic with your arms flailing in thin air.
In view of your straight down the line, honest, approach to everything can you let me know if my credentials pass your credibility check?
It's been eating away at me all night.
You claimed to be close to members of the Windrush generation, but then ended your post by claiming that any criticism of the Tories is completely unjustified.
Based on this, I consider you an outright liar.
My response was/is based on the conversations I've had with people who are directly affected or have relatives that are affected. Would you rather me not have had those conversations and, instead, take the thoughts and opinions of a privileged, white, glorified support teacher as being representative of them?
Also, nice twisting but I never said that any criticism of the Tories was completely unjustified. I said it's a shame that political activism can't be put to one side when it's unjustifiable.
You love a bit of misrepresentation.
At this point it would require actual footage of you talking to an elderly black person, in which they categorically blame Labour for this, for me to believe a single word you say
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
Hi @Leuth , I know you're not one to raise a question, receive an answer that didn't fit in with your preconceived bias and then run away from the topic with your arms flailing in thin air.
In view of your straight down the line, honest, approach to everything can you let me know if my credentials pass your credibility check?
It's been eating away at me all night.
You claimed to be close to members of the Windrush generation, but then ended your post by claiming that any criticism of the Tories is completely unjustified.
Based on this, I consider you an outright liar.
My response was/is based on the conversations I've had with people who are directly affected or have relatives that are affected. Would you rather me not have had those conversations and, instead, take the thoughts and opinions of a privileged, white, glorified support teacher as being representative of them?
Also, nice twisting but I never said that any criticism of the Tories was completely unjustified. I said it's a shame that political activism can't be put to one side when it's unjustifiable.
You love a bit of misrepresentation.
Are you trying to suggest you don't?
Did a bugle horn play in the background or something?
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
Hi @Leuth , I know you're not one to raise a question, receive an answer that didn't fit in with your preconceived bias and then run away from the topic with your arms flailing in thin air.
In view of your straight down the line, honest, approach to everything can you let me know if my credentials pass your credibility check?
It's been eating away at me all night.
You claimed to be close to members of the Windrush generation, but then ended your post by claiming that any criticism of the Tories is completely unjustified.
Based on this, I consider you an outright liar.
My response was/is based on the conversations I've had with people who are directly affected or have relatives that are affected. Would you rather me not have had those conversations and, instead, take the thoughts and opinions of a privileged, white, glorified support teacher as being representative of them?
Also, nice twisting but I never said that any criticism of the Tories was completely unjustified. I said it's a shame that political activism can't be put to one side when it's unjustifiable.
You love a bit of misrepresentation.
Are you trying to suggest you don't?
Did a bugle horn play in the background or something?
Who ordered the world's worst white knight
You know that using the rhetoric of all-right trolls kind of blows your cover a little more, yes?
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
Hi @Leuth , I know you're not one to raise a question, receive an answer that didn't fit in with your preconceived bias and then run away from the topic with your arms flailing in thin air.
In view of your straight down the line, honest, approach to everything can you let me know if my credentials pass your credibility check?
It's been eating away at me all night.
You claimed to be close to members of the Windrush generation, but then ended your post by claiming that any criticism of the Tories is completely unjustified.
Based on this, I consider you an outright liar.
My response was/is based on the conversations I've had with people who are directly affected or have relatives that are affected. Would you rather me not have had those conversations and, instead, take the thoughts and opinions of a privileged, white, glorified support teacher as being representative of them?
Also, nice twisting but I never said that any criticism of the Tories was completely unjustified. I said it's a shame that political activism can't be put to one side when it's unjustifiable.
You love a bit of misrepresentation.
Are you trying to suggest you don't?
To answer your question seriously, are you trying to suggest that by me saying Leuth likes a bit of misrepresentation that it automatically equates to me not having misrepresented anything?
Good to see old Diane Abbot banging on about it and blaming all and sundry saying this had been known about for years. Begs the question then why did Labour not sort it out when last in Government. Easy to blame others eh Diane.
Find it all a bit strange to be honest. I mean how did they get National Insurance numbers without the proper paperwork?
Good old selective protester Diane, the woman who asked a member of the IRA Birmingham pub bombing family/campaigners for justice “what do you people want....money?”
There are loads of other threads on which to vent your dislike of specific politicians. So, in order not to drag this one - about a present issue - can you confine comments to the Windrush scandal specifically and what should be done to rectify and atone for the issue in general?
quite how you as a poster can come out with this when you hijack nearly every slightly political/risque subject and dish out flags to everyone posting on it is slightly hypocritical IMO
I have simply asked that this thread - like so many others - doesn't fall foul of the typical malaise that hits many other threads, ie posters simply using it as a means of attacking people they don't like (hey, guess what? We know some people are scared of Diane Abbot already, we don't need reminding). It would be great if it could stay on track. We don't need another thread that demonstrates we (Lifers) are unable to debate an issue carefully, thoughtfully and with a measure of compassion.
I don't "hijack nearly every slightly political / risque subject" although I agree that to do so wouldn't be helpful. And I certainly don't "dish out flags to everyone". I do flag posts that demonstrate deliberate or accidental racism and will continue to do so.
So, back to Windrush. Do you think Theresa May and Amber Rudd should lose their jobs? Or are you happy that no-one needs to be accountable for failures that impact the lives of British people?
No I do not think they should lose their jobs over it as there are too many mucky dirty hands that have touched it and been aware of it and done nothing about it
The treatment of the people affected is abhorrent but to say May must go because of her Policy to make it a hostile environment for illegal immigrants has resulted in this is not justified reason as I agree that we need to make it a much more harder country to hide in
Theresa May came up with this simplistic, stupid idea that the country could be made into "a hostile environment" for illegal immigrants, without causing any issue whatsoever to immigrants - or nationalised British people - who are here perfectly legally.
Here's an analogy. Shoplifting is wrong and is illegal. We could make a "hostile environment" for shoplifters. But doing so will naturally make visiting a shop an unpleasant experience for all shoppers, not just shoplifters. And this would be exacerbated if some shoppers were singled out and asked to prove they were not shoplifters, under threat of prison if they couldn't show their non-shoplifter paperwork.
You simply can't ramp up a hostile environment for illegal immigrants that doesn't also cause problems for people who are here legally. That's why I think Theresa May should examine her conscience and consider her position. And if she doesn't - and I fully expect that she hasn't the integrity to resign - we move closer to the point at which anything goes, and there's no consequence for failure.
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
Hi @Leuth , I know you're not one to raise a question, receive an answer that didn't fit in with your preconceived bias and then run away from the topic with your arms flailing in thin air.
In view of your straight down the line, honest, approach to everything can you let me know if my credentials pass your credibility check?
It's been eating away at me all night.
You claimed to be close to members of the Windrush generation, but then ended your post by claiming that any criticism of the Tories is completely unjustified.
Based on this, I consider you an outright liar.
My response was/is based on the conversations I've had with people who are directly affected or have relatives that are affected. Would you rather me not have had those conversations and, instead, take the thoughts and opinions of a privileged, white, glorified support teacher as being representative of them?
Also, nice twisting but I never said that any criticism of the Tories was completely unjustified. I said it's a shame that political activism can't be put to one side when it's unjustifiable.
You love a bit of misrepresentation.
Are you trying to suggest you don't?
Did a bugle horn play in the background or something?
Who ordered the world's worst white knight
You know that using the rhetoric of all-right trolls kind of blows your cover a little more, yes?
Oh no, a Momentum member and far left activist in labelling someone alt-right shocker.
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
Hi @Leuth , I know you're not one to raise a question, receive an answer that didn't fit in with your preconceived bias and then run away from the topic with your arms flailing in thin air.
In view of your straight down the line, honest, approach to everything can you let me know if my credentials pass your credibility check?
It's been eating away at me all night.
You claimed to be close to members of the Windrush generation, but then ended your post by claiming that any criticism of the Tories is completely unjustified.
Based on this, I consider you an outright liar.
My response was/is based on the conversations I've had with people who are directly affected or have relatives that are affected. Would you rather me not have had those conversations and, instead, take the thoughts and opinions of a privileged, white, glorified support teacher as being representative of them?
Also, nice twisting but I never said that any criticism of the Tories was completely unjustified. I said it's a shame that political activism can't be put to one side when it's unjustifiable.
You love a bit of misrepresentation.
Are you trying to suggest you don't?
To answer your question seriously, are you trying to suggest that by me saying Leuth likes a bit of misrepresentation that it automatically equates to me not having misrepresented anything?
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
Hi @Leuth , I know you're not one to raise a question, receive an answer that didn't fit in with your preconceived bias and then run away from the topic with your arms flailing in thin air.
In view of your straight down the line, honest, approach to everything can you let me know if my credentials pass your credibility check?
It's been eating away at me all night.
You claimed to be close to members of the Windrush generation, but then ended your post by claiming that any criticism of the Tories is completely unjustified.
Based on this, I consider you an outright liar.
My response was/is based on the conversations I've had with people who are directly affected or have relatives that are affected. Would you rather me not have had those conversations and, instead, take the thoughts and opinions of a privileged, white, glorified support teacher as being representative of them?
Also, nice twisting but I never said that any criticism of the Tories was completely unjustified. I said it's a shame that political activism can't be put to one side when it's unjustifiable.
You love a bit of misrepresentation.
At this point it would require actual footage of you talking to an elderly black person, in which they categorically blame Labour for this, for me to believe a single word you say
Phew, that was close. For a moment(um) there I thought that what you were saying was going to end with an interesting point. It didn't.
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
Hi @Leuth , I know you're not one to raise a question, receive an answer that didn't fit in with your preconceived bias and then run away from the topic with your arms flailing in thin air.
In view of your straight down the line, honest, approach to everything can you let me know if my credentials pass your credibility check?
It's been eating away at me all night.
You claimed to be close to members of the Windrush generation, but then ended your post by claiming that any criticism of the Tories is completely unjustified.
Based on this, I consider you an outright liar.
My response was/is based on the conversations I've had with people who are directly affected or have relatives that are affected. Would you rather me not have had those conversations and, instead, take the thoughts and opinions of a privileged, white, glorified support teacher as being representative of them?
Also, nice twisting but I never said that any criticism of the Tories was completely unjustified. I said it's a shame that political activism can't be put to one side when it's unjustifiable.
You love a bit of misrepresentation.
At this point it would require actual footage of you talking to an elderly black person, in which they categorically blame Labour for this, for me to believe a single word you say
Phew, that was close. For a moment(um) there I thought that what you were saying was going to end with an interesting point. It didn't.
Are you trying to suggest any of your posts end with an interesting point? They don't.
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
Hi @Leuth , I know you're not one to raise a question, receive an answer that didn't fit in with your preconceived bias and then run away from the topic with your arms flailing in thin air.
In view of your straight down the line, honest, approach to everything can you let me know if my credentials pass your credibility check?
It's been eating away at me all night.
You claimed to be close to members of the Windrush generation, but then ended your post by claiming that any criticism of the Tories is completely unjustified.
Based on this, I consider you an outright liar.
My response was/is based on the conversations I've had with people who are directly affected or have relatives that are affected. Would you rather me not have had those conversations and, instead, take the thoughts and opinions of a privileged, white, glorified support teacher as being representative of them?
Also, nice twisting but I never said that any criticism of the Tories was completely unjustified. I said it's a shame that political activism can't be put to one side when it's unjustifiable.
You love a bit of misrepresentation.
Are you trying to suggest you don't?
To answer your question seriously, are you trying to suggest that by me saying Leuth likes a bit of misrepresentation that it automatically equates to me not having misrepresented anything?
"To answer your question... [inserts question]"
Yes, because your question made no sense whatsoever. I sought clarity but, unfortunately, you were disappointingly incapable of giving it.
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
Hi @Leuth , I know you're not one to raise a question, receive an answer that didn't fit in with your preconceived bias and then run away from the topic with your arms flailing in thin air.
In view of your straight down the line, honest, approach to everything can you let me know if my credentials pass your credibility check?
It's been eating away at me all night.
You claimed to be close to members of the Windrush generation, but then ended your post by claiming that any criticism of the Tories is completely unjustified.
Based on this, I consider you an outright liar.
My response was/is based on the conversations I've had with people who are directly affected or have relatives that are affected. Would you rather me not have had those conversations and, instead, take the thoughts and opinions of a privileged, white, glorified support teacher as being representative of them?
Also, nice twisting but I never said that any criticism of the Tories was completely unjustified. I said it's a shame that political activism can't be put to one side when it's unjustifiable.
You love a bit of misrepresentation.
At this point it would require actual footage of you talking to an elderly black person, in which they categorically blame Labour for this, for me to believe a single word you say
Phew, that was close. For a moment(um) there I thought that what you were saying was going to end with an interesting point. It didn't.
Are you trying to suggest any of your posts end with an interesting point? They don't.
Does my answer to Leuth suggest that or does it just suggest that the one post I highlighted didn't end with an interesting point?
Why don't you use another thread to bitch at each other on
I would but the bitching is coming from the far left activists around whether or not their opinions are more valid than those experiencing this cock up first hand.
Comments
To an extent we are all unfairly discriminated against.
In the simplest of terms a motorist has no rights with regard to speed camera prosecutions. You have no right to silence and are required on the form accompanying the NIP to incriminate yourself (or someone else). "No comment"? You're having a laugh!
There's plenty of other similar bits of legislation which has been on the statute books for some while.
A more complex example would be the UK's financial services legislation. In that legislation misleading a FCA investigator, not providing documentation requested or merely refusing to answer questions is an offence which can get you gaol time (S177 FSMA 2000).
The authoritarian nature of such legislation gets the job done though, so S177 prosecutions are extremely rare. (The plod often look on longingly when you tell them about these powers.)
Others have long had similar draconian powers. It often comes as a shock to MPs that bodies other than the police have more (and better or worse depending on your point of view) powers than the constabulary. This is strange, as MPs are the very people that come up with the legislation in the first place. Customs officers are an obvious example. No warrant needed to check your bags. And don't expect anyone to consider you are innocent at a "red diesel" checkpoint until such time as they've actually checked the contents of your fuel tank.
Then there's RIPA 2000. That gives some 50-odd separate authorities (I'm counting all local authorities as just one for this purpose) the powers to do things such as harvest details about communications data (but not the data themselves) and carry out directed surveillance and use undercover officers. RIPA applies not just to suspected (or actual) criminal matters but to such abstract concepts as being "in the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom".
I'm afraid that the phrase the Americans are fond of - the land of the free - was an idea that has evaporated into the ether as soon as sophisticated methods of communication, mobile phones, social media, and emails, etc became the norm. Oppressive investigation or even in this case aggressive immigration policy is, I'm afraid, the quid pro quo to allowing us free use of the devices, etc now available to us.
It is of course profoundly wrong that some people have been erroneously caught up in the over-zealous application of the legislation mingled with more than a hint of the general all-round incompetence that the UK Border Force are renown for. It is also profoundly correct that the matter needs sorting in short order.
The complexity of the age we live in will continue to be a mixed blessing. Particularly when the computer says no.
Regarding blame, who cares? It seems like 6 of one and half a dozen of the other
In view of your straight down the line, honest, approach to everything can you let me know if my credentials pass your credibility check?
It's been eating away at me all night.
Interesting.....I did not know this.
I don't "hijack nearly every slightly political / risque subject" although I agree that to do so wouldn't be helpful. And I certainly don't "dish out flags to everyone". I do flag posts that demonstrate deliberate or accidental racism and will continue to do so.
So, back to Windrush. Do you think Theresa May and Amber Rudd should lose their jobs? Or are you happy that no-one needs to be accountable for failures that impact the lives of British people?
Based on this, I consider you an outright liar.
Also, nice twisting but I never said that any criticism of the Tories was completely unjustified. I said it's a shame that political activism can't be put to one side when it's unjustifiable.
You love a bit of misrepresentation.
The treatment of the people affected is abhorrent but to say May must go because of her Policy to make it a hostile environment for illegal immigrants has resulted in this is not justified reason as I agree that we need to make it a much more harder country to hide in
Who ordered the world's worst white knight
Here's an analogy. Shoplifting is wrong and is illegal. We could make a "hostile environment" for shoplifters. But doing so will naturally make visiting a shop an unpleasant experience for all shoppers, not just shoplifters. And this would be exacerbated if some shoppers were singled out and asked to prove they were not shoplifters, under threat of prison if they couldn't show their non-shoplifter paperwork.
You simply can't ramp up a hostile environment for illegal immigrants that doesn't also cause problems for people who are here legally. That's why I think Theresa May should examine her conscience and consider her position. And if she doesn't - and I fully expect that she hasn't the integrity to resign - we move closer to the point at which anything goes, and there's no consequence for failure.
Over to you.
Christ, you're the Dymo of CL.
The policy it’s self was the right thing to do it should be a hostile environment for those illegally here to remain