Why do these people beed that one piece of documentation to prove who they are and whrn they arrived in the UK? Surely they've been in the system since, so there must be more, more reliable paperwork (rent book, council tax, and income tax numbers) than that that's been binned?
When you're asked for records and provide them, only to be told that they're incomplete, or don't cover the full period over which you've been resident, what do you do?
If you're told to keep papers, you do. If you're not told to keep them, then you're asked to prove where you were 60 years ago, when you were 6 years old, that can be a struggle. No?
Do you keep all your bank statements?
No. And that's my point. I have never been told they're a requirement for my continual citizenship, so I haven't.
If, at some point in the future I'm required to show them in order to continue to be allowed to live here, I'll have a problem that would be both unfair and unpredictable.
That's what's happening here.
What do you think HMRC would say to you If they came around and wanted extra cash and you said that you don't keep your pay slips or bank statements?
So, they got ya. The Tories have once again been caught red-handed being ****s. This time it looks really bad.
NEVER FEAR. The 'equivocation' method will STILL APPLY. Here's what to do.
1. State that Labour and the Tories are as bad as each other (don't really attempt to justify this).
2. Success! You can now support the Tories again with a clean conscience.
It’s easy to justify why tories and labour are as bad as each other
1 Theresa May 2 Jeremy Corbyn
Conservatives handling of Windrush and their lack of leadership and drive to fix the issue and lies about those affected
Labour handling of the anti Semitic comments made to their own MPs by people who are Labour Party members who have tagged in their leader
Who for days after never came out and stated on his own twitter that he personally updates don’t use my name in any of these vile tweets and messages that are no reflection on my politics my opinions or my myself and if you do make them there’s no place for you in labour
These examples are why both parties are as bad as each other
Good to see old Diane Abbot banging on about it and blaming all and sundry saying this had been known about for years. Begs the question then why did Labour not sort it out when last in Government. Easy to blame others eh Diane.
Find it all a bit strange to be honest. I mean how did they get National Insurance numbers without the proper paperwork?
Good old selective protester Diane, the woman who asked a member of the IRA Birmingham pub bombing family/campaigners for justice “what do you people want....money?”
There are loads of other threads on which to vent your dislike of specific politicians. So, in order not to drag this one - about a present issue - can you confine comments to the Windrush scandal specifically and what should be done to rectify and atone for the issue in general?
No, I’ll continue to post what I want, when I want, without the need for your permission, thanks all the same
Why do these people beed that one piece of documentation to prove who they are and whrn they arrived in the UK? Surely they've been in the system since, so there must be more, more reliable paperwork (rent book, council tax, and income tax numbers) than that that's been binned?
When you're asked for records and provide them, only to be told that they're incomplete, or don't cover the full period over which you've been resident, what do you do?
If you're told to keep papers, you do. If you're not told to keep them, then you're asked to prove where you were 60 years ago, when you were 6 years old, that can be a struggle. No?
I'm not criticizing anyone, I just think there must be other checkable records and / documentation in existance to not let this be a problem for those affected
You see, I think this is the biggest problem. There is a group of people who don't have some documentation that they are now told is essential for them to continue to benefit from being able to live in the UK.
Illegal immigrants are not allowed to stay in the UK, obviously. And there's a few ways of dealing with people who are illegal immigrants - including deportation, incarceration or, in some cases, being put on a path towards citizenship.
But this scandal is beyond that. Because not one of the people affected is an illegal immigrant. Yet they are being denied the rights to which every other British citizen has, ie being innocent until proven guilty.
They're innocent of being illegal immigrants; yet they're denied the right of assumption of innocence to which we all have had, as a fundamental right. So far.
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
If these people came over as children, surely their schools would have records. The education authorities, councils etc. Then when they started work, they would have had to get an NI number etc
Maybe if all had ID cards, none of this would have been an issue. They would have been issued with one on arrival
What does your ID card look like? Can you prove you have never been out of the country for more than a year at any stage in your life?
The one thing I have failed to actually see is how many people are impacted by this ? Is it dozens, scores, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands , hundreds of thousands ! As no one is saying I would guess the actual count is relatively low. Otherwise the issue would have been brought into the open long before now. If I arrived in the uk in the fifties as a windrush baby, I would be in my late fifties / sixties. In all those years would I not have the ability to prove my status in this country for 50 or 60 years I had been here. I would have gone to school, had a medical history, been issued an NI number, worked and paid tax.
I can log on the Uk Gov site and see my NI history for the last 44 years .. ?
So why has this arisen ? Or is the real impact to a very low number of people, who have for whatever reason, have an inability to prove their history ?
I think the reporting whilst justified, may be making a mountain out of a mole hill sized problem. Yes, it's a serious issue for those impacted, but how many is that ??
The Home Office can be ruthless, that's nothing new. At work in the late 2000s (i.e. under Labour) we had a white South African contractor working for us (a reasonably paid graduate type office job) until one day he didn't turn up, as he had been deported due to overstaying his work permit.
"Foreign migrant working in the UK illegally deported".
"British citizens denied right of assumption of innocence".
Charlton Life is full of bright, intelligent, engaged Lifers, and this forum affords a huge array of topics. From football to films, music to mental health, holidays to horse racing and politics to Pot Noodle. So, while there are threads that concentrate on some areas of political life, there is not yet one on the biggest scandal to hit the UK, namely the WIndrush scandal.
So with apologies to those for whom "another" political thread is too much (and, to those people, as well as apologies, I will offer the suggestion, that you don't open this thread and, instead look at any of the others), this is a thread, posted for selfish reasons, on the debacle of the Windrush scandal. Why "selfish"? Because I want to understand the issue better - I have posted this thread in order to understand a few questions that are completely baffling me right now. Those questions are:
1. Why has Theresa May not resigned? 2. Why has Amber Rudd not either been sacked or had the decency to resign? 3. How much worse is this going to get?
...and, sadly, the one that's worrying me the most...
4. If the government is going after British subjects who have lived in, worked in, paid taxes to and contributed to the United Kingdom for decades, who will they go after next?
Most of us are lucky enough to live in the greatest country on Earth, of course. But this scandal impacts each and every one of us. It's so all-encompassing and dangerous that it can be summed up in a simple sentence. "The government is selecting some British citizens to persecute, terrorise, incarcerate and threaten with deportation". There are lots of questions that need answering and I can't answer them. Can any Lifers help out?
If I genuinely wanted to know the answer to those questions then I wouldn’t come to a L1 football forum to ask them.
Yes we embrace the approach of being a broad church conversation wise so it’s not purely Charlton focused, but personally I’m pig sick with the amount of politics focus some posters choose to bring to here. Seems there is more interest in having current affairs debates / arguments or provoking controversy than there is Charlton / football for a number of posters. The objective of non-football discussion is not to create divisions yet this feels increasingly like what a growing number of posters are using it for.
Occasional stray into a difficult subject used to work quite well, when it’s what seems to be a constant production line of politics based ‘debate’ it doesn’t. Certainly not what the intention was and definitely not what I personally want to waste any hours moderating or having to deal with the constant fall out.
The reason the government is culpable is that the actions against existing citizens are the direct result of their policies being implemented regardless of the facts. The stories about people being denied health care, losing jobs, being locked up and threatened with deportation have been in the press for months.
Current ministers ignored them, failed to respond urgently, appropriately or at all even when officials were challenged by lawyers. Ministers were specifically warned in 2014 - by officials and opposition politicians - and dismissed the concerns. According to the then head of the civil service, even some serving coalition ministers in 2014 accused other ministers of behaving in a fashion reminiscent of Nazi Germany. Last week May had refused to meet to discuss it with Commonwealth leaders, they were that keen to suppress it.
The job of the opposition is to get that addressed, which is what they have done. But it’s not resolved until it is.
Not sure the scandal impacts on "each and every one of us" to be honest. I feel sorry for them and I hope they get what they want but I am not losing sleep over it.
As long as you're alright.
Not quite what I said, however I can have little impact on the outcome. If I vote I vote Conservative and I agree with everything DA9 said above. Why should May & Rudd resign over something the Labour Party did.
If these people arrived via the system the way they claim and have been working and paying taxes here for the last 40 years then they have every right to stay and be given papers.
I don't think you've grasped what went on here. Destroying the records is a side show, it's not helpful that it happened but I don't think it's the main story. The Home Office went out of their way under May from about 2012 to create a hostile environment for anyone who couldn't prove they ought to be here. It means showing proof to get a job, get healthcare, rent a flat. There's a separate argument to be had about whether these policies would work, but the whole point of a hostile environment is for it to be hostile. Now, obviously, some people who can't prove that may be illegal migrants, some won't. But people have lost jobs, homes and been denied access to healthcare because they couldn't prove they had been here for 50 something years. At the same time as this new regime came in, experienced people in the Home Office were taking redundancy because they felt the new system didn't give them any leeway to use their discretion. Baroness Warsi, former Tory govt minister, has said that there was "an unhealthy obsession with numbers". How many of us have documents proving where we were for the last 50 years?
Old Charlton match tickets and programmes
No. They might help to establish that you were in London at certain times. (And of course, they would be inadmissible).
I know it was a flippant comment, but it's a good question. Can you prove that you were here for - say- the whole of 1971? And haven't been out of the country for a year ever since?
How this legislation got through Parliament i ll never know. It wasnt intended to persecute the "Windrush Generation" but of course they seem to be the easiest of targets.How someone in our Civil Service didnt caution the law makers i ll never understand .How the Executive actually went about implementing the legislation leaves a lot to be desired . I think our Civil Service has us down badly.
There’s no hiding from the fact that everybody who has had anything remotely to do with this scandal are culpable and complicit in the problem faced for all those impacted
Both parties to blame both parties playing politics with peoples lives
Both parties seemingly happy to be associated with issues that leave more questions than answers on where they sit with certain racisit undertones and neither party willing to defend themselves and move them selves away from the criticism
Just does go to show that they are all self serving cnuts and neither party are actually a full representation of the general public
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
Born and raised in an area with a healthy Caribbean community. A community that, even to this day, has a profound effect on me due to historic personal and family reasons that I'd rather not go in to. A community that I'm still in contact with and have a huge amount of admiration and respect for.
If I have happened to neglect any terminology that you were hoping to extract from me, kindly let me know so I can give you the answers you want
Why shouldn't they resign? Because while it's a complete dog's dinner, it's not exclusively a Tory dog's dinner. You can trace the history of the development of this fiasco way back.
If these people came over as children, surely their schools would have records. The education authorities, councils etc. Then when they started work, they would have had to get an NI number etc
Maybe if all had ID cards, none of this would have been an issue. They would have been issued with one on arrival
What does your ID card look like? Can you prove you have never been out of the country for more than a year at any stage in your life?
Well, ID cards were indeed on the menu under the Labour Govt. in 2004-6. The whole concept got binned eventually. But if only we'd been a bit more sensible about the idea of carrying around a(nother) bit of plastic, this dog's dinner of a problem could have been made to go away around 12 years ago without anybody being any the wiser. Guess which of the usual suspects voted against their party and with The Tories on this matter?
I suggest few people get out there and actually speak to some of the people affected by this cock up, instead of attempting to be righteous on a football forum.
Claiming you 'care', and dressing up your ill thought out blame game as seeking to 'understand', doesn't hold any water.
Once the truth came out about where and how the cock up started, a lot of the Windrush generation that I know of laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Labour party.
The posturing and attempt at heightened morality from some quarters is ridden with an awful stench.
The Tories are rightly derided in most cases. It's a shame that political activism doesn't subside in cases where it's completely unjustified.
How do you know them? Probably not worth asking tbh but let's see what you can come up with
Born and raised in an area with a healthy Caribbean community. A community that, even to this day, has a profound effect on me due to historic personal and family reasons that I'd rather not go in to. A community that I'm still in contact with and have a huge amount of admiration and respect for.
If I have happened to neglect any terminology that you were hoping to extract from me, kindly let me know so I can give you the answers you want
But...but...but, your mill.... Come back when you’ve got your stereotypes in order
Not sure the scandal impacts on "each and every one of us" to be honest. I feel sorry for them and I hope they get what they want but I am not losing sleep over it.
As long as you're alright.
Not quite what I said, however I can have little impact on the outcome. If I vote I vote Conservative and I agree with everything DA9 said above. Why should May & Rudd resign over something the Labour Party did.
If these people arrived via the system the way they claim and have been working and paying taxes here for the last 40 years then they have every right to stay and be given papers.
I don't think you've grasped what went on here. Destroying the records is a side show, it's not helpful that it happened but I don't think it's the main story. The Home Office went out of their way under May from about 2012 to create a hostile environment for anyone who couldn't prove they ought to be here. It means showing proof to get a job, get healthcare, rent a flat. There's a separate argument to be had about whether these policies would work, but the whole point of a hostile environment is for it to be hostile. Now, obviously, some people who can't prove that may be illegal migrants, some won't. But people have lost jobs, homes and been denied access to healthcare because they couldn't prove they had been here for 50 something years. At the same time as this new regime came in, experienced people in the Home Office were taking redundancy because they felt the new system didn't give them any leeway to use their discretion. Baroness Warsi, former Tory govt minister, has said that there was "an unhealthy obsession with numbers". How many of us have documents proving where we were for the last 50 years?
Old Charlton match tickets and programmes
No. They might help to establish that you were in London at certain times. (And of course, they would be inadmissible).
I know it was a flippant comment, but it's a good question. Can you prove that you were here for - say- the whole of 1971? And haven't been out of the country for a year ever since?
Good to see old Diane Abbot banging on about it and blaming all and sundry saying this had been known about for years. Begs the question then why did Labour not sort it out when last in Government. Easy to blame others eh Diane.
Find it all a bit strange to be honest. I mean how did they get National Insurance numbers without the proper paperwork?
Good old selective protester Diane, the woman who asked a member of the IRA Birmingham pub bombing family/campaigners for justice “what do you people want....money?”
There are loads of other threads on which to vent your dislike of specific politicians. So, in order not to drag this one - about a present issue - can you confine comments to the Windrush scandal specifically and what should be done to rectify and atone for the issue in general?
quite how you as a poster can come out with this when you hijack nearly every slightly political/risque subject and dish out flags to everyone posting on it is slightly hypocritical IMO
If these people came over as children, surely their schools would have records. The education authorities, councils etc. Then when they started work, they would have had to get an NI number etc
Maybe if all had ID cards, none of this would have been an issue. They would have been issued with one on arrival
What does your ID card look like? Can you prove you have never been out of the country for more than a year at any stage in your life?
Sorry, there's a "we" missing in that sentence, i.e. if we'd always had identity cards (well since WW2 say), then these people would have been made officially legal from the start in their documentation
If these people came over as children, surely their schools would have records. The education authorities, councils etc. Then when they started work, they would have had to get an NI number etc
Maybe if all had ID cards, none of this would have been an issue. They would have been issued with one on arrival
What does your ID card look like? Can you prove you have never been out of the country for more than a year at any stage in your life?
Sorry, there's a "we" missing in that sentence, i.e. if we'd always had identity cards (well since WW2 say), then these people would have been made officially legal from the start in their documentation
Understood. But that only works in the world where ID cards equate to citizenship. And in the world where we *all* have to "prove" we are innocent of being an illegal immigrant.
Until recently, every British person in the UK had a right to an assumption of innocence. Now, under Theresa May (and I hold her accountable, although I appreciate others should be too, to a lesser degree), some people have to prove their innocence. I am not one of those. And, although I benefit from not being one of those, I am entitled to the opinion that it's grossly unfair. Because it is.
I am finding this debate all a bit weird as it appears to be based on assumptions rather than fact but here goes with my veiw. You state above in your own words:
"some people have to prove their innocence. I am not one of those. And, although I benefit from not being one of those"
So I am guessing by that statement that you are like me in that you have been born and raised in the UK by parents who were born and raised in the UK by your grandparents who were born and raised in the UK.
As we live in the UK that is our entitlement, we are by the very nature of it UK citizens.
The Windrush People however came to the UK having been born in another country so by this very fact the moment they stepped foot on English soil they were not UK citizens.
Obviously a lot of time has passed i.e. 40 years and a vast majority of the Windrush people have worked in the UK, paid tax in the UK, and been entitled to use the Health Service in the UK so in my eyes that makes them UK citizens.
If we wanted to kick them out it should have been done just after they arrived, not wait 40 years.
However the main point of your argument appears to be based on the threat that long standing UK citizens such as you, me, our parents and our grand parents are also under threat of deportation which is not being mentioned anywhere in the press.
I am finding this debate all a bit weird as it appears to be based on assumptions rather than fact but here goes with my veiw. You state above in your own words:
"some people have to prove their innocence. I am not one of those. And, although I benefit from not being one of those"
So I am guessing by that statement that you are like me in that you have been born and raised in the UK by parents who were born and raised in the UK by your grandparents who were born and raised in the UK.
As we live in the UK that is our entitlement, we are by the very nature of it UK citizens.
The Windrush People however came to the UK having been born in another country so by this very fact the moment they stepped foot on English soil they were not UK citizens.
Obviously a lot of time has passed i.e. 40 years and a vast majority of the Windrush people have worked in the UK, paid tax in the UK, and been entitled to use the Health Service in the UK so in my eyes that makes them UK citizens.
If we wanted to kick them out it should have been done just after they arrived, not wait 40 years.
However the main point of your argument appears to be based on the threat that long standing UK citizens such as you, me, our parents and our grand parents are also under threat of deportation which is not being mentioned anywhere in the press.
When the Windrush people came they were often not citizens of another county, in the main. They were invited here to help rebuild Britain after the War from British colonies. The first Caribbean country to gain independence was Jamaica in 1962. Antigua, Belize and St Kitts Nevis did not gain independence until the 1980s. So, while some may not have been UK citizens, most were, or at least had a reasonable belief that they were. The rules barring them from automatic citizenship didn't start till 1973 and weren't as far as I know retrospective.
I don't think Chizz is suggesting that anyone passing as white British is in danger of being kicked out. I think he's suggesting it's a complete mess that it should have happened to people from the Commonwealth. And that a bit of empathy for those suffering from this might be in order.
Not sure the scandal impacts on "each and every one of us" to be honest. I feel sorry for them and I hope they get what they want but I am not losing sleep over it.
A government selecting which British people, legally resident in the UK, paying taxes and getting on with their lives are chosen for detention and deportation is a scandal which impacts everyone.
You missed my other post above however when I vote I vote for "this" Government, I would rather not vote than let Labour and Jeremy Corben anywhere near 10 Downing Street.
You make it sound as if people are being picked up by squads and frog marched to Heathrow, the people in question came to the UK and settled here, there has been a mix up with their papers caused by a Labour Government and it has hit the headlines.
Sad Labour politicians are no more concerned about these poor people than most of the country, they are simply using the situation to point score and get May or Rudd to resign.
As I say I am not expecting a knock on my door any time soon asking me to leave the country so I shall sleep well tonight.
You're getting there, eaststandmike. You're getting closer to the point. Let me spell it out.
You're a British citizen. You don't expect a knock on the door any time soon. You don't expect anyone to ask you to leave the country. That is a description of many Windrush generation British citizens (as it is of many others - Polish RAF pilots, for example).
You don't expect a knock on the door, until you get a letter, giving you seven days' notice. Can you imagine how frightening that must be?
Person X sees the Windrush commotion and thinks - this could affect me, so I better go through the following checklist:
A. Have I got a full UK passport B. Have I got a full checkable history of NI number, taxation, NHS number, Electoral role/voting history.
If A - don't worry. If B - get in touch with the hotline ASAP If neither - keep schtum.
Not sure the scandal impacts on "each and every one of us" to be honest. I feel sorry for them and I hope they get what they want but I am not losing sleep over it.
A government selecting which British people, legally resident in the UK, paying taxes and getting on with their lives are chosen for detention and deportation is a scandal which impacts everyone.
You missed my other post above however when I vote I vote for "this" Government, I would rather not vote than let Labour and Jeremy Corben anywhere near 10 Downing Street.
You make it sound as if people are being picked up by squads and frog marched to Heathrow, the people in question came to the UK and settled here, there has been a mix up with their papers caused by a Labour Government and it has hit the headlines.
Sad Labour politicians are no more concerned about these poor people than most of the country, they are simply using the situation to point score and get May or Rudd to resign.
As I say I am not expecting a knock on my door any time soon asking me to leave the country so I shall sleep well tonight.
Not sure the scandal impacts on "each and every one of us" to be honest. I feel sorry for them and I hope they get what they want but I am not losing sleep over it.
A government selecting which British people, legally resident in the UK, paying taxes and getting on with their lives are chosen for detention and deportation is a scandal which impacts everyone.
You missed my other post above however when I vote I vote for "this" Government, I would rather not vote than let Labour and Jeremy Corben anywhere near 10 Downing Street.
You make it sound as if people are being picked up by squads and frog marched to Heathrow, the people in question came to the UK and settled here, there has been a mix up with their papers caused by a Labour Government and it has hit the headlines.
Sad Labour politicians are no more concerned about these poor people than most of the country, they are simply using the situation to point score and get May or Rudd to resign.
As I say I am not expecting a knock on my door any time soon asking me to leave the country so I shall sleep well tonight.
Corben!
Now I know I am right if your only come back is a typo
I am finding this debate all a bit weird as it appears to be based on assumptions rather than fact but here goes with my veiw. You state above in your own words:
"some people have to prove their innocence. I am not one of those. And, although I benefit from not being one of those"
So I am guessing by that statement that you are like me in that you have been born and raised in the UK by parents who were born and raised in the UK by your grandparents who were born and raised in the UK.
As we live in the UK that is our entitlement, we are by the very nature of it UK citizens.
The Windrush People however came to the UK having been born in another country so by this very fact the moment they stepped foot on English soil they were not UK citizens.
Obviously a lot of time has passed i.e. 40 years and a vast majority of the Windrush people have worked in the UK, paid tax in the UK, and been entitled to use the Health Service in the UK so in my eyes that makes them UK citizens.
If we wanted to kick them out it should have been done just after they arrived, not wait 40 years.
However the main point of your argument appears to be based on the threat that long standing UK citizens such as you, me, our parents and our grand parents are also under threat of deportation which is not being mentioned anywhere in the press.
The Windrush generation are British citizens. They are no more and no less entitled to everything to which any other British citizen is entitled. Yet, for some reason, they are having to "prove" their innocence of the suggestion they are illiegal immigrants. I call it a suggestion as opposed to a charge, because, in English law, one has the opportunity to defend oneself; with an accusation of being an illegal immigrant, one isn't afforded the same luxury.
So my problem with this is summed up by a two, simple questions. Why are some British citizens being subjected to Home Office rules that unfairly discriminate against them? And, who might be next?
I totally understand that some people don't care as long as it doesn't immediately affect them personally. I'm deeply troubled by it, however.
I am finding this debate all a bit weird as it appears to be based on assumptions rather than fact but here goes with my veiw. You state above in your own words:
"some people have to prove their innocence. I am not one of those. And, although I benefit from not being one of those"
So I am guessing by that statement that you are like me in that you have been born and raised in the UK by parents who were born and raised in the UK by your grandparents who were born and raised in the UK.
As we live in the UK that is our entitlement, we are by the very nature of it UK citizens.
The Windrush People however came to the UK having been born in another country so by this very fact the moment they stepped foot on English soil they were not UK citizens.
Obviously a lot of time has passed i.e. 40 years and a vast majority of the Windrush people have worked in the UK, paid tax in the UK, and been entitled to use the Health Service in the UK so in my eyes that makes them UK citizens.
If we wanted to kick them out it should have been done just after they arrived, not wait 40 years.
However the main point of your argument appears to be based on the threat that long standing UK citizens such as you, me, our parents and our grand parents are also under threat of deportation which is not being mentioned anywhere in the press.
The Windrush generation are British citizens. They are no more and no less entitled to everything to which any other British citizen is entitled. Yet, for some reason, they are having to "prove" their innocence of the suggestion they are illiegal immigrants. I call it a suggestion as opposed to a charge, because, in English law, one has the opportunity to defend oneself; with an accusation of being an illegal immigrant, one isn't afforded the same luxury.
So my problem with this is summed up by a two, simple questions. Why are some British citizens being subjected to Home Office rules that unfairly discriminate against them? And, who might be next?
I totally understand that some people don't care as long as it doesn't immediately affect them personally. I'm deeply troubled by it, however.
You won't like this suggestion but the UK has the autonomy to 'kick out' Commonwealth citizens but cannot do the same to those citizens who have arrived via the EU.
All governments of whatever shade love to bully weak, vulnerable, elderly soft targets. Windrush citizens, being mainly poor, elderly and working class fall into this category and can be kicked out without upsetting our EU Masters in order to try to hoodwink the general public that the government is being 'tough' on immigration. Cynical politicing at its worst.
As I've said on other threads the treatment of these people, who were invited and encouraged into this country let us not forget, is an absolute disgrace and both Labour and the Tories should be thoroughly ashamed for facilitating it by their present and previous actions.
Not sure the scandal impacts on "each and every one of us" to be honest. I feel sorry for them and I hope they get what they want but I am not losing sleep over it.
A government selecting which British people, legally resident in the UK, paying taxes and getting on with their lives are chosen for detention and deportation is a scandal which impacts everyone.
You missed my other post above however when I vote I vote for "this" Government, I would rather not vote than let Labour and Jeremy Corben anywhere near 10 Downing Street.
You make it sound as if people are being picked up by squads and frog marched to Heathrow, the people in question came to the UK and settled here, there has been a mix up with their papers caused by a Labour Government and it has hit the headlines.
Sad Labour politicians are no more concerned about these poor people than most of the country, they are simply using the situation to point score and get May or Rudd to resign.
As I say I am not expecting a knock on my door any time soon asking me to leave the country so I shall sleep well tonight.
Corben!
Now I know I am right if your only come back is a typo
It’s disgusting that it’s happened it’s totally unacceptable and I refuse to believe someone somewhere didn’t realise it could happen , that means that someone somewhere decided that was a risk worth taking
The hostile environment for illegal people in the uk needs to happen it needed to be done
What’s unacceptable is that once someone realised that by doing this there was a chance innocent people will be affected and they chose to ignore that ,
Comments
1 Theresa May
2 Jeremy Corbyn
Conservatives handling of Windrush and their lack of leadership and drive to fix the issue and lies about those affected
Labour handling of the anti Semitic comments made to their own MPs by people who are Labour Party members who have tagged in their leader
Who for days after never came out and stated on his own twitter that he personally updates don’t use my name in any of these vile tweets and messages that are no reflection on my politics my opinions or my myself and if you do make them there’s no place for you in labour
These examples are why both parties are as bad as each other
Racist undertones within both imo
Illegal immigrants are not allowed to stay in the UK, obviously. And there's a few ways of dealing with people who are illegal immigrants - including deportation, incarceration or, in some cases, being put on a path towards citizenship.
But this scandal is beyond that. Because not one of the people affected is an illegal immigrant. Yet they are being denied the rights to which every other British citizen has, ie being innocent until proven guilty.
They're innocent of being illegal immigrants; yet they're denied the right of assumption of innocence to which we all have had, as a fundamental right. So far.
Can you prove you have never been out of the country for more than a year at any stage in your life?
I can log on the Uk Gov site and see my NI history for the last 44 years .. ?
So why has this arisen ? Or is the real impact to a very low number of people, who have for whatever reason, have an inability to prove their history ?
I think the reporting whilst justified, may be making a mountain out of a mole hill sized problem. Yes, it's a serious issue for those impacted, but how many is that ??
"British citizens denied right of assumption of innocence".
Can you see how these things are different?
Yes we embrace the approach of being a broad church conversation wise so it’s not purely Charlton focused, but personally I’m pig sick with the amount of politics focus some posters choose to bring to here. Seems there is more interest in having current affairs debates / arguments or provoking controversy than there is Charlton / football for a number of posters. The objective of non-football discussion is not to create divisions yet this feels increasingly like what a growing number of posters are using it for.
Occasional stray into a difficult subject used to work quite well, when it’s what seems to be a constant production line of politics based ‘debate’ it doesn’t. Certainly not what the intention was and definitely not what I personally want to waste any hours moderating or having to deal with the constant fall out.
Current ministers ignored them, failed to respond urgently, appropriately or at all even when officials were challenged by lawyers. Ministers were specifically warned in 2014 - by officials and opposition politicians - and dismissed the concerns. According to the then head of the civil service, even some serving coalition ministers in 2014 accused other ministers of behaving in a fashion reminiscent of Nazi Germany. Last week May had refused to meet to discuss it with Commonwealth leaders, they were that keen to suppress it.
The job of the opposition is to get that addressed, which is what they have done. But it’s not resolved until it is.
I know it was a flippant comment, but it's a good question. Can you prove that you were here for - say- the whole of 1971? And haven't been out of the country for a year ever since?
How this legislation got through Parliament i ll never know. It wasnt intended to persecute the "Windrush Generation" but of course they seem to be the easiest of targets.How someone in our Civil Service didnt caution the law makers i ll never understand .How the Executive actually went about implementing the legislation leaves a lot to be desired . I think our Civil Service has us down badly.
If I have happened to neglect any terminology that you were hoping to extract from me, kindly let me know so I can give you the answers you want
Take, for example, the proposed bill for the introduction of identity cards. This was 2006 and a piece of Labour legislation. It was deeply unpopular with the opposition (and others). Eventually, the whole idea was binned. If it hadn't been, this sorry mess would have been solved 12 years ago. Here's an indication of why it got binned: https://theyworkforyou.com/mp/10133/jeremy_corbyn/islington_north/divisions?policy=1051 (and, perhaps an answer to the question posed above?) Here's another https://theyworkforyou.com/mp/10001/diane_abbott/hackney_north_and_stoke_newington/divisions?policy=1051 Well, ID cards were indeed on the menu under the Labour Govt. in 2004-6. The whole concept got binned eventually. But if only we'd been a bit more sensible about the idea of carrying around a(nother) bit of plastic, this dog's dinner of a problem could have been made to go away around 12 years ago without anybody being any the wiser. Guess which of the usual suspects voted against their party and with The Tories on this matter?
Come back when you’ve got your stereotypes in order
Until recently, every British person in the UK had a right to an assumption of innocence. Now, under Theresa May (and I hold her accountable, although I appreciate others should be too, to a lesser degree), some people have to prove their innocence. I am not one of those. And, although I benefit from not being one of those, I am entitled to the opinion that it's grossly unfair. Because it is.
I am finding this debate all a bit weird as it appears to be based on assumptions rather than fact but here goes with my veiw. You state above in your own words:
"some people have to prove their innocence. I am not one of those. And, although I benefit from not being one of those"
So I am guessing by that statement that you are like me in that you have been born and raised in the UK by parents who were born and raised in the UK by your grandparents who were born and raised in the UK.
As we live in the UK that is our entitlement, we are by the very nature of it UK citizens.
The Windrush People however came to the UK having been born in another country so by this very fact the moment they stepped foot on English soil they were not UK citizens.
Obviously a lot of time has passed i.e. 40 years and a vast majority of the Windrush people have worked in the UK, paid tax in the UK, and been entitled to use the Health Service in the UK so in my eyes that makes them UK citizens.
If we wanted to kick them out it should have been done just after they arrived, not wait 40 years.
However the main point of your argument appears to be based on the threat that long standing UK citizens such as you, me, our parents and our grand parents are also under threat of deportation which is not being mentioned anywhere in the press.
I don't think Chizz is suggesting that anyone passing as white British is in danger of being kicked out. I think he's suggesting it's a complete mess that it should have happened to people from the Commonwealth. And that a bit of empathy for those suffering from this might be in order.
Person X sees the Windrush commotion and thinks - this could affect me, so I better go through the following checklist:
A. Have I got a full UK passport
B. Have I got a full checkable history of NI number, taxation, NHS number, Electoral role/voting history.
If A - don't worry.
If B - get in touch with the hotline ASAP
If neither - keep schtum.
Simples ?
So my problem with this is summed up by a two, simple questions. Why are some British citizens being subjected to Home Office rules that unfairly discriminate against them? And, who might be next?
I totally understand that some people don't care as long as it doesn't immediately affect them personally. I'm deeply troubled by it, however.
All governments of whatever shade love to bully weak, vulnerable, elderly soft targets. Windrush citizens, being mainly poor, elderly and working class fall into this category and can be kicked out without upsetting our EU Masters in order to try to hoodwink the general public that the government is being 'tough' on immigration. Cynical politicing at its worst.
As I've said on other threads the treatment of these people, who were invited and encouraged into this country let us not forget, is an absolute disgrace and both Labour and the Tories should be thoroughly ashamed for facilitating it by their present and previous actions.
Thought this was towards illegal immigrants, not children of West Indian
genuine ones! Predictably David Lammy and Abbot going over the top!
The hostile environment for illegal people in the uk needs to happen it needed to be done
What’s unacceptable is that once someone realised that by doing this there was a chance innocent people will be affected and they chose to ignore that ,