Just suppose Bowyer leaves Charlton due to Roland being a prick. JJ has gone on record as saying he wants to manage Charlton one day. Could we not offer him the job straight away or would we have to interview other people even though the job is going to JJ.
Why would you not, for instance, consider Jason Euell? Does Johnnie Jackson just get to decide who the next Charlton manager is?
I would be delighted if Jason Euell ever became Charlton manager. I believe he turned down the position of assistant manager some time ago as he wanted to continue with his current job.
I heard of large law firm Baker McKenzie, who had applications from BAME candidates that were roughly in proportion to the national demographics (about 15-20%). This number halved at the interview stage and halved again when it came to giving jobs. There was an argument maybe the BAME candidates weren't as good as the white ones, the best person always got the jobs etc... But when they blinded the application stage, the proportion of BAME candidates stayed the same at first stage. When they introduced interview panels that were mixed in terms of ethnicity and also seniority, the proportion of BAME candidates getting jobs was also maintained. Go figure.
Maybe some BAME candidates are missing out, not because of overt racism, but unconscious bias, something we all have
Unconscious bias? So in other words no evidence of racism but you might still be racist.
Precisely. People subconsciously gravitate towards things they are similar to, all to do with the way the brain processes information.
I heard of large law firm Baker McKenzie, who had applications from BAME candidates that were roughly in proportion to the national demographics (about 15-20%). This number halved at the interview stage and halved again when it came to giving jobs. There was an argument maybe the BAME candidates weren't as good as the white ones, the best person always got the jobs etc... But when they blinded the application stage, the proportion of BAME candidates stayed the same at first stage. When they introduced interview panels that were mixed in terms of ethnicity and also seniority, the proportion of BAME candidates getting jobs was also maintained. Go figure.
Maybe some BAME candidates are missing out, not because of overt racism, but unconscious bias, something we all have
Unconscious bias? So in other words no evidence of racism but you might still be racist.
Precisely. People subconsciously gravitate towards things they are similar to, all to do with the way the brain processes information.
I'd consider myself to be in no way racists, bit it's eye opening
I’ll check this out later, I’m not here for a typical CL row I just genuinely don’t get this, if the penny drops at some point so be it I’m open minded enough but for now I just don’t get this at all.
I went to a conference on diversity, and the professor from Harvard who made the tests was keynote speaker. We did one live in the room (association of house and work words with male and female names).
The room was incredibly diverse, and most people there made their living deadline with diversity. The whole room struggled when trying to associate male names/house words and female names/work words.
As I say, it's a natural thing we all have, nothing to be ashamed of, but can be mitigated
Just suppose Bowyer leaves Charlton due to Roland being a prick. JJ has gone on record as saying he wants to manage Charlton one day. Could we not offer him the job straight away or would we have to interview other people even though the job is going to JJ.
Why would you not, for instance, consider Jason Euell? Does Johnnie Jackson just get to decide who the next Charlton manager is?
What ever happened to best man for the job...err I mean best person.
Nothing, absolutely nothing. The Rooney Rule doesn’t mean any is given a job based on their ethnicity, just that there has to be a BAME candidate considered/interviewed during the process. I genuinely can’t see why anyone would have an issue with this.
Other than waste time it achieves nothing then.
I completely believe that you think that.
You’d be completely right, explain to me what it achieves then? Giving someone who has no chance of a job an interview to make up quotas.
I’ll try my best, but I have very low expectations of success (mainly because it sounds like your mind is very much made up).
- currently, I would guess something like 35% of players in England are BAME - you might have noticed that nothing like that percentage are managers of the 92, that % is probably something closer to 0% currently - there are likely many, many factors that influence this and no single measure will improve the situation - the Rooney Rule alone won’t change it and no one is suggesting it will - what the Rooney Rule will do is normalise the inclusion of BAME candidates in the selection process, as @McBobbin points out one of those many factors that I referenced that has created this situation is likely unconscious bias which sees the selection process gravitate towards white candidates - the Rooney Rule has been effective in the NFL which had (and still does to some extent) the same issue around a lack of BAME players transitioning to manager roles so there is evidence that it works as part of a broader solution
Ultimately, we all love football and managers have a big impact on the quality of football. So if we can create a bigger pool of managers to pick from then the quality of management will improve (as you are more likely to get better quality if you have more people to pick from) and subsequently the quality of football that we watch should also improve, everyone’s a winner (apart from those rubbish managers who seem to always manage to find themselves employment despite consistent failure because the pool to choose from just isn’t big enough.
What ever happened to best man for the job...err I mean best person.
Nothing, absolutely nothing. The Rooney Rule doesn’t mean any is given a job based on their ethnicity, just that there has to be a BAME candidate considered/interviewed during the process. I genuinely can’t see why anyone would have an issue with this.
Other than waste time it achieves nothing then.
I completely believe that you think that.
You’d be completely right, explain to me what it achieves then? Giving someone who has no chance of a job an interview to make up quotas.
I’ll try my best, but I have very low expectations of success (mainly because it sounds like your mind is very much made up).
- currently, I would guess something like 35% of players in England are BAME - you might have noticed that nothing like that percentage are managers of the 92, that % is probably something closer to 0% currently - there are likely many, many factors that influence this and no single measure will improve the situation - the Rooney Rule alone won’t change it and no one is suggesting it will - what the Rooney Rule will do is normalise the inclusion of BAME candidates in the selection process, as @McBobbin points out one of those many factors that I referenced that has created this situation is likely unconscious bias which sees the selection process gravitate towards white candidates - the Rooney Rule has been effective in the NFL which had (and still does to some extent) the same issue around a lack of BAME players transitioning to manager roles so there is evidence that it works as part of a broader solution
Ultimately, we all love football and managers have a big impact on the quality of football. So if we can create a bigger pool of managers to pick from then the quality of management will improve (as you are more likely to get better quality if you have more people to pick from) and subsequently the quality of football that we watch should also improve, everyone’s a winner (apart from those rubbish managers who seem to always manage to find themselves employment despite consistent failure because the pool to choose from just isn’t big enough.
My mind is not made up hence why I asked the question.
”the pool” isn’t the issue, as I said if the pool already has BAME people in it but owners don’t feel they’re good enough for an interview, what is the problem? And then you and others say “unconscious bias” for which me and other say “racism with no proof of racism?” That’s where we are I guess.
What ever happened to best man for the job...err I mean best person.
Nothing, absolutely nothing. The Rooney Rule doesn’t mean any is given a job based on their ethnicity, just that there has to be a BAME candidate considered/interviewed during the process. I genuinely can’t see why anyone would have an issue with this.
Other than waste time it achieves nothing then.
I completely believe that you think that.
You’d be completely right, explain to me what it achieves then? Giving someone who has no chance of a job an interview to make up quotas.
I’ll try my best, but I have very low expectations of success (mainly because it sounds like your mind is very much made up).
- currently, I would guess something like 35% of players in England are BAME - you might have noticed that nothing like that percentage are managers of the 92, that % is probably something closer to 0% currently - there are likely many, many factors that influence this and no single measure will improve the situation - the Rooney Rule alone won’t change it and no one is suggesting it will - what the Rooney Rule will do is normalise the inclusion of BAME candidates in the selection process, as @McBobbin points out one of those many factors that I referenced that has created this situation is likely unconscious bias which sees the selection process gravitate towards white candidates - the Rooney Rule has been effective in the NFL which had (and still does to some extent) the same issue around a lack of BAME players transitioning to manager roles so there is evidence that it works as part of a broader solution
Ultimately, we all love football and managers have a big impact on the quality of football. So if we can create a bigger pool of managers to pick from then the quality of management will improve (as you are more likely to get better quality if you have more people to pick from) and subsequently the quality of football that we watch should also improve, everyone’s a winner (apart from those rubbish managers who seem to always manage to find themselves employment despite consistent failure because the pool to choose from just isn’t big enough.
My mind is not made up hence why I asked the question.
”the pool” isn’t the issue, as I said if the pool already has BAME people in it but owners don’t feel they’re good enough for an interview, what is the problem? And then you and others say “unconscious bias” for which me and other say “racism with no proof of racism?” That’s where we are I guess.
I heard of large law firm Baker McKenzie, who had applications from BAME candidates that were roughly in proportion to the national demographics (about 15-20%). This number halved at the interview stage and halved again when it came to giving jobs. There was an argument maybe the BAME candidates weren't as good as the white ones, the best person always got the jobs etc... But when they blinded the application stage, the proportion of BAME candidates stayed the same at first stage. When they introduced interview panels that were mixed in terms of ethnicity and also seniority, the proportion of BAME candidates getting jobs was also maintained. Go figure.
Maybe some BAME candidates are missing out, not because of overt racism, but unconscious bias, something we all have
Unconscious bias? So in other words no evidence of racism but you might still be racist.
Also the bit that got me was introduced mixed ethnicities to the interview panel, so is that proving bias because more bane interviewers will more likely hire bane applicatants. If so that doesn't sort out the problem it's just discrimination to get quotas which isn't good for anyone, but saying this we all know being the best doesn't mean you get the job relatability and how much you can get on with also play a big part, so I wouldn't know the best way to sort this out
You look at the current young managers in a job now, most of them were ex-players that have made the step up into coaching.
More needs to be looked at why white players make the jump over minority candidates, whether its due to opportunities afforded that might not be available to minority players (appointed under-18s coach, assistant manager roles etc.)
Stop the world I want to get off... If I had a company and was advertising posts I would want best people for the job, based on experience and the job criteria. Colour, creed, etc would not come into it. Why a rule to tell me how to do my job. Ridiculous. Snowflake madness.
I heard of large law firm Baker McKenzie, who had applications from BAME candidates that were roughly in proportion to the national demographics (about 15-20%). This number halved at the interview stage and halved again when it came to giving jobs. There was an argument maybe the BAME candidates weren't as good as the white ones, the best person always got the jobs etc... But when they blinded the application stage, the proportion of BAME candidates stayed the same at first stage. When they introduced interview panels that were mixed in terms of ethnicity and also seniority, the proportion of BAME candidates getting jobs was also maintained. Go figure.
Maybe some BAME candidates are missing out, not because of overt racism, but unconscious bias, something we all have
Unconscious bias? So in other words no evidence of racism but you might still be racist.
Also the bit that got me was introduced mixed ethnicities to the interview panel, so is that proving bias because more bane interviewers will more likely hire bane applicatants. If so that doesn't sort out the problem it's just discrimination to get quotas which isn't good for anyone, but saying this we all know being the best doesn't mean you get the job relatability and how much you can get on with also play a big part, so I wouldn't know the best way to sort this out
Not really, there still needs consensus between the interviewers. Not sure if you've ever done a job interview, but having people on the panel from different departments even bring in different perspectives, which you wouldn't get if everyone interviewing was pretty much the same
How crap must Macclesfield be. Half a year being managed by the 'Best football brain in Britain' (Sold description, not mine) and they only just scrape out of the relegation places.
An increase in BAME coaches will be a generation thing. A lot more English black players are coming through then say 30 years ago. Many, I believe will want to stay in the game.
A lot of African players return home or leave the game and have no interest in coaching.
The real issue, once again, which the FA are too stubborn to realise, is that coaching badges are not affordable. How many inner city residents, where statistically more BAME are interested in the game are from, can afford thousands of pounds on taking their badges. We have the most expensive badges in Europe.
The Rooney rule is the FA’s way of covering their own greed.
Stop the world I want to get off... If I had a company and was advertising posts I would want best people for the job, based on experience and the job criteria. Colour, creed, etc would not come into it. Why a rule to tell me how to do my job. Ridiculous. Snowflake madness.
As someone who has always been against positive discrimination, because it's not only an oxymoron but has the word discrimination in it.
But @Chippycafc this is about not getting interviews if your a person of colour.
The snowflakes being offended if you don't smile at them or raise your voice has nothing to do with being turned down for an interview if you have a good CV.
I hope I haven't upset you as I know your a sensitive soul !
How crap must Macclesfield be. Half a year being managed by the 'Best football brain in Britain' (Sold description, not mine) and they only just scrape out of the relegation places.
He did well to be fair to him, and proved he can manage.
Bottom of League Two and five points adrift of safety when he took over. Ended up three points above the bottom two. 7 wins and 10 draws from 25 league games.
How crap must Macclesfield be. Half a year being managed by the 'Best football brain in Britain' (Sold description, not mine) and they only just scrape out of the relegation places.
It can be argued that Macclesfield overachieved by staying up last season. They were widely tipped to go down by the bookies and had the smallest budget in League 2.
How many of you here actually interview or in a position to interview staff for vacancies. I have interview hundreds of people over the years... All I get is a CV of their experience prior to meeting them. If they fall short they don't get ft e job... End of story.
Stop the world I want to get off... If I had a company and was advertising posts I would want best people for the job, based on experience and the job criteria. Colour, creed, etc would not come into it. Why a rule to tell me how to do my job. Ridiculous. Snowflake madness.
As someone who has always been against positive discrimination, because it's not only an oxymoron but has the word discrimination in it.
But @Chippycafc this is about not getting interviews if your a person of colour.
The snowflakes being offended if you don't smile at them or raise your voice has nothing to do with being turned down for an interview if you have a good CV.
I hope I haven't upset you as I know your a sensitive soul !
How many of you here actually interview or in a position to interview staff for vacancies. I have interview hundreds of people over the years... All I get is a CV of their experience prior to meeting them. If they fall short they don't get ft e job... End of story.
The feed back is Black candidates aren't getting the interviews so unlike your good self who will pick candidates on merit, according to Paul Mortimer who was a top player and a very articulate man and who I had a good chat with on a train (I'm proper Charlton) once where we discussed all things football as well as the state of the trains !
Another ex black footballer said why spend the time and thousands of pounds on the B and A licence if you don't get a chance.
The race card is played incorrectly by some when black managers get sacked but the interview process looks dodgy, I've even heard one female CEO interviewed 40 candidates then picked the owners choice anyway. Thankfully that will never happen at Cafc
What ever happened to best man for the job...err I mean best person.
Nothing, absolutely nothing. The Rooney Rule doesn’t mean any is given a job based on their ethnicity, just that there has to be a BAME candidate considered/interviewed during the process. I genuinely can’t see why anyone would have an issue with this.
Other than waste time it achieves nothing then.
How do you know it wastes time and achieves nothing?
You can only give the best person the job of they actually apply for it... Part of the challenge of levelling the playing field is to give opportunity to those who wouldn't other wise get it... Not sure how this applies to football coaches, but at my firm we do talks at schools and secretarial colleges and offer mock interviews and work experience. Means people from less privileged backgrounds has the same chance as having a stand out CV as someone who knows someone in the industry. The wider point about diversity is different people bring different skills, and that includes people from different backgrounds as well as different work experiences. You need a mix. I work in law, and my dream team would certainly include white public Oxbridge men... Some clients love those. And people of different ethnicity (we have an international clientele), genders and backgrounds. In fact of you are tendering for business from large corporations, you have to include your own firm's diversity data as well as list all the outreach and "diversity" work you do. Even if you don't think it's the right thing, follow the money! If course, when recruiting, there has to be a base line of skills, experience, qualifications etc to even get an interview, that's not the question. It's a much a case if making sure you recruit from a wide pool and take biases (other than biases against competence!) out the equation, and a diverse workforce sort of takes care of itself.
Fantastic news and can only help to improve the quality of all of our coaches in the football league.
How
It’s a logical conclusion of having a larger pool of interviewees to choose from.
As previously debunked earlier on in this thread, they won’t be interviewing a BAME candidate at the expense of another white candidate so no-one loses out. It might just surprise a few people that the minority bloke (someone who may have not been previously considered) turns out to be the best option.
What if the clubs included BAME candidates in their pool originally but didn’t think they’re suitable for the interview stage?
Can you also answer this please Callum?
@McBobbin covered it with unconscious bias. The “pool” I’m talking about is the size of the pool at the interview stage.
If you’re presented with a CV from a white bloke and an identical CV from a BAME bloke, then research done around unconscious bias suggests that you will gravitate towards the white bloke despite not having a racist bone in your body. You are limiting your search without realising you’re doing it, thus the larger pool comment.
This is easier to avoid when you have no idea who the people applying are (as in @Chippycafc ‘s anecdote) but let’s assume that in twenty years, England want a new coach and it’s between Fabian Delph and John Stones. Without the Rooney rule, John Stones has a far better chance of getting an interview than Delph does.
What ever happened to best man for the job...err I mean best person.
Nothing, absolutely nothing. The Rooney Rule doesn’t mean any is given a job based on their ethnicity, just that there has to be a BAME candidate considered/interviewed during the process. I genuinely can’t see why anyone would have an issue with this.
Other than waste time it achieves nothing then.
How do you know it wastes time and achieves nothing?
Well if you’ve made your mind up on who you’re appointing but have to fill quotas anyway it’s a waste of time for all parties.
Comments
I believe he turned down the position of assistant manager some time ago as he wanted to continue with his current job.
Have a crack at this implicit association test: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/Study?tid=-1
I'd consider myself to be in no way racists, bit it's eye opening
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/
I went to a conference on diversity, and the professor from Harvard who made the tests was keynote speaker. We did one live in the room (association of house and work words with male and female names).
The room was incredibly diverse, and most people there made their living deadline with diversity. The whole room struggled when trying to associate male names/house words and female names/work words.
As I say, it's a natural thing we all have, nothing to be ashamed of, but can be mitigated
- currently, I would guess something like 35% of players in England are BAME
- you might have noticed that nothing like that percentage are managers of the 92, that % is probably something closer to 0% currently
- there are likely many, many factors that influence this and no single measure will improve the situation - the Rooney Rule alone won’t change it and no one is suggesting it will
- what the Rooney Rule will do is normalise the inclusion of BAME candidates in the selection process, as @McBobbin points out one of those many factors that I referenced that has created this situation is likely unconscious bias which sees the selection process gravitate towards white candidates
- the Rooney Rule has been effective in the NFL which had (and still does to some extent) the same issue around a lack of BAME players transitioning to manager roles so there is evidence that it works as part of a broader solution
Ultimately, we all love football and managers have a big impact on the quality of football. So if we can create a bigger pool of managers to pick from then the quality of management will improve (as you are more likely to get better quality if you have more people to pick from) and subsequently the quality of football that we watch should also improve, everyone’s a winner (apart from those rubbish managers who seem to always manage to find themselves employment despite consistent failure because the pool to choose from just isn’t big enough.
”the pool” isn’t the issue, as I said if the pool already has BAME people in it but owners don’t feel they’re good enough for an interview, what is the problem? And then you and others say “unconscious bias” for which me and other say “racism with no proof of racism?” That’s where we are I guess.
More needs to be looked at why white players make the jump over minority candidates, whether its due to opportunities afforded that might not be available to minority players (appointed under-18s coach, assistant manager roles etc.)
A lot of African players return home or leave the game and have no interest in coaching.
The real issue, once again, which the FA are too stubborn to realise, is that coaching badges are not affordable. How many inner city residents, where statistically more BAME are interested in the game are from, can afford thousands of pounds on taking their badges. We have the most expensive badges in Europe.
The Rooney rule is the FA’s way of covering their own greed.
But @Chippycafc this is about not getting interviews if your a person of colour.
The snowflakes being offended if you don't smile at them or raise your voice has nothing to do with being turned down for an interview if you have a good CV.
I hope I haven't upset you as I know your a sensitive soul !
Bottom of League Two and five points adrift of safety when he took over. Ended up three points above the bottom two. 7 wins and 10 draws from 25 league games.
It's pretty hateful to use gender binary terms like 'mens' and 'ladies'. It's not 2017 anymore fella.
Another ex black footballer said why spend the time and thousands of pounds on the B and A licence if you don't get a chance.
The race card is played incorrectly by some when black managers get sacked but the interview process looks dodgy, I've even heard one female CEO interviewed 40 candidates then picked the owners choice anyway.
Thankfully that will never happen at Cafc
If you’re presented with a CV from a white bloke and an identical CV from a BAME bloke, then research done around unconscious bias suggests that you will gravitate towards the white bloke despite not having a racist bone in your body. You are limiting your search without realising you’re doing it, thus the larger pool comment.
This is easier to avoid when you have no idea who the people applying are (as in @Chippycafc ‘s anecdote) but let’s assume that in twenty years, England want a new coach and it’s between Fabian Delph and John Stones. Without the Rooney rule, John Stones has a far better chance of getting an interview than Delph does.