I like this proposal. It seems to me it means the UK remains almost a full member of the EU until 2021. It means the UK economy does not go over a cliff, UK buseinesses do not have to make panic large investment commitments that would cause severe damage to the UK economy for decades, and best of all, it gives the growing anti Brexit movement more time to mobilise and stop Brexit altogether.
Completely agree - could see the DUP end their confidence and supply arrangement which could be the end of the government doing the negotiating though.
Unlikely that they would want to lose any of the leverage they have. A change of government wouldn’t help the DUP cause one bit.
The DUP are opposed to a hard border between NI and GB. Nothing in the Times report suggests that one would be imposed so would have thought they would be happy with the deal.
The DUP are opposed to a hard border between NI and GB. Nothing in the Times report suggests that one would be imposed so would have thought they would be happy with the deal.
Aren’t the DUP opposed to any special arrangement for NI as opposed to the rest of the UK ? Don’t they see that as being tantamount to a United Ireland ? Or at least a move towards that happening.
Surely how poorly the Brexit negotiations are going is proof enough that a single market is superior to the alternative. You think the squabbling between the UK and the EU is bad, a bilateral discussion between two parties, imagine the squabbling between 28 nations at the same time, effectively 378 different sets of negotiations happening concurrently. Anyone who thinks that would be anywhere more efficient or beneficial than a single market governed by robust democratic principals cannot really be taken seriously.
The DUP are opposed to a hard border between NI and GB. Nothing in the Times report suggests that one would be imposed so would have thought they would be happy with the deal.
Aren’t the DUP opposed to any special arrangement for NI as opposed to the rest of the UK ? Don’t they see that as being tantamount to a United Ireland ? Or at least a move towards that happening.
I can't pretend that I've been following all of their pronouncements but Foster's state the position below. I understand that they simply refuse (quite reasonably) to have a border with the UK. The proposals mentioned in the Times devolves responsibility on the NI Executive (if one can be formed) to make arrangements with ROI.
"Her Majesty's Government have a clear understanding that the DUP will not countenance any arrangement that could lead to a new border being created in the Irish Sea.
Indeed, the Prime Minister has been categorical on this matter in the House of Commons.
We reiterated that United Kingdom-Republic of Ireland arrangements may be necessary as we exit the EU but there can be no arrangements agreed that compromise the integrity of the UK single market and place barriers, real or perceived, to the free movement of goods, services and capital between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom".
I like this proposal. It seems to me it means the UK remains almost a full member of the EU until 2021. It means the UK economy does not go over a cliff, UK buseinesses do not have to make panic large investment commitments that would cause severe damage to the UK economy for decades, and best of all, it gives the growing anti Brexit movement more time to mobilise and stop Brexit altogether.
You may be right as the anti-Brexit elite is in control of most important parts of society. However, the transition period still means we leave the EU in March 2019-no more MEPs for example and exclusion from all the main bodies. At that stage it will need a campaign to rejoin to get back in.
The DUP are opposed to a hard border between NI and GB. Nothing in the Times report suggests that one would be imposed so would have thought they would be happy with the deal.
I think that's exactly what the Times article is saying. If there is harmonisation of customs etc across the island of Ireland but not with the UK mainland then there will have to be a border of sorts between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.
The DUP are opposed to a hard border between NI and GB. Nothing in the Times report suggests that one would be imposed so would have thought they would be happy with the deal.
I think that's exactly what the Times article is saying. If there is harmonisation of customs etc across the island of Ireland but not with the UK mainland then there will have to be a border of sorts between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.
A little but like the Conservatives, the DUP are frequent visitors to Schrodinger's cake shop.
They say they do not want a hard border, I have my doubts if that is quite true, but are more determined to avoid anything that suggests special status in comparison to the rest of the UK, even if that is what the UK wants. Which is odd, we've been special over here for years.
The desire to reaffirm and retain the type of relationship that they want with the rest of the UK trumps all other policy choices - though the British people converting to Catholicism might, just, cause them to wonder.
Net immigration is falling due to higher emigration and lower immigration, and has called over 100,000 in the last year. But, it is still 230,000 and is a drop from all time high figures. The devil is in the detail... Similar number of EU migrants who have a job, big drop in those looking for work. Be interesting if this is just an adjustment from all time high figures, or is part of a long term trend
Only back to 2014 level - I read somewhere today.
I believe that is correct. The question is whether the trend down will continue, for how long and how far... And also who the immigrants coming and going are etc.
The DUP are opposed to a hard border between NI and GB. Nothing in the Times report suggests that one would be imposed so would have thought they would be happy with the deal.
I think that's exactly what the Times article is saying. If there is harmonisation of customs etc across the island of Ireland but not with the UK mainland then there will have to be a border of sorts between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.
Yep you are right. A DUP MP is pretty much saying that
Net immigration is falling due to higher emigration and lower immigration, and has called over 100,000 in the last year. But, it is still 230,000 and is a drop from all time high figures. The devil is in the detail... Similar number of EU migrants who have a job, big drop in those looking for work. Be interesting if this is just an adjustment from all time high figures, or is part of a long term trend
Only back to 2014 level - I read somewhere today.
I believe that is correct. The question is whether the trend down will continue, for how long and how far... And also who the immigrants coming and going are etc.
The figures today show roughly the same amount of EU and Non-EU long term net immigration. We obviously have full control over non-EU immigration and the net figure I saw was 120,000, (and 110,000 from the EU.)
So if the figures are correct, in the time since the referendum an EU citizen has decided to come to UK (long-term), about every 5 minutes. A country that is heading over the cliff of Brexit where there is almost zero unemployment and a supposedly "nasty" atmosphere towards foreigners.
Net immigration is falling due to higher emigration and lower immigration, and has called over 100,000 in the last year. But, it is still 230,000 and is a drop from all time high figures. The devil is in the detail... Similar number of EU migrants who have a job, big drop in those looking for work. Be interesting if this is just an adjustment from all time high figures, or is part of a long term trend
Only back to 2014 level - I read somewhere today.
I believe that is correct. The question is whether the trend down will continue, for how long and how far... And also who the immigrants coming and going are etc.
The figures today show roughly the same amount of EU and Non-EU long term net immigration. We obviously have full control over non-EU immigration and the net figure I saw was 120,000, (and 110,000 from the EU.)
So if the figures are correct, in the time since the referendum an EU citizen has decided to come to UK (long-term), about every 5 minutes. A country that is heading over the cliff of Brexit where there is almost zero unemployment and a supposedly "nasty" atmosphere towards foreigners.
I guess things will become clear in the coming months and years. The weaker pound probably has a lot to do with it. Moving to another country is a big and complicated decision.
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country. This is a very dangerous game and could backfire into violence if the brinkmanship continues.
Nay, nay, and thrice nay.
It's just not true.
Here's the thing, the EU have accepted the outcome of the EU referendum, no matter how much they may regret it.
But, even democracy does not happen in a vacuum. The democratic will of the UK (even if it was crystal clear what that us) extends to the limits of it's jurisdiction and no further, and those seeking to implement it have to take into account the legally binding agreements that the UK has made.
Just because people vote to, for example, "Make America Great Again", that vote does not make the desire reality.
So, also, the UK Government's desire to both have cake and eat it does not miraculously make everything it wants happen.
The UK position is that it wants out of the EU, Single Market and Customs Union, and it can leave - but it cannot expect to retain everything as it is now if it does so.
The UK have proposed, at best, vague and aspirational soundbites (unlikely to meet WTO requirements) about the future of the border between the UK and EU in Ireland.
The EU negotiators are representing the interests of the EU27, because that's what they are supposed to do. And the EU has very firm notions about its external customs border, which is fair enough, as it controls access to its Single Market.
The outlook and interests of the EU27 are not those of the UK Government, but they have suggested a way of maintaining a status quo regarding the Irish border.
The only way to have the frictionless border that the Conservatives and DUP say they want is to have a formal system of enshrining ongoing regulatory equivalence (not the same as Liam Fox's idea that, just because on day one, the regulations are the same that an FTA can be arranged at the drop of the hat).
The UK says no to that for the UK as a whole, and also for Northern Ireland. It's not the EU's (including Ireland) job to design a workable Brexit that respects the circumstances in Northern Irish politics (some might say the DUP should be keen, but apparently not), but they are trying. In the end, however, no matter how much they want to avoid a customs border in Ireland, if that is what has to happen it will.
The only reason that there may be brinkmanship is because the UK has wasted time by failing to engage with the Article 50 process, including the sequencing, which is mot only about money. The timetable was set out in advance, it's not like there's any real surprise that there is limited time.
As for the potential for matters to backfire into violence, at least in Northern Ireland, this was precisely the argument of Remainers that was widely dismissed as fearmongering. Those that seek violence need very little encouragement, but Brexit seems to be providing it in spades. I can only speak for those I know, but political divisions are hardening here - the willingness of nationalists to see themselves as Northern Irish is diminishing and, if the language of the DUP is anything to go by, things aren't much better within Unionism.
It was a mistake to agree on the sequencing-which they are regretting now. Once a trade deal is done a way will be found to minimise border controls. But that cannot be agreed in advance of a deal being agreed without agreeing in advance to a possible part of the deal. I am not surprised that attitudes are hardening because of this unnecessary posturing. It seems that in the Tory Party as well there are Remain MPs who resent the way this is being done by the EU.
'Once a trade deal is done a way will be found to minimise border controls'..go on, I'm all ears. Just to be helpful there are 400km of land border in Ireland, and at least 300 crossing points, so, do tell us about this way that will be found. Explain how the border would work if you are travelling from Gannons Cross to Clones on the N54/A3?
First time in this thread I've seen any real comment about practicalities of life on the border. According to Google thats an 11.4km journey, that should take about 10 minutes. Four border crossings.
As for the talk that the EU is using Ireland, come off the stage. As soon as Brexit was confirmed our government was working on pushing the EU into making sure Northern Ireland and the border was an important issue.
The impression I get from Brexit Supporters is that the border is an Irish issue. Its the "Irish border". Thats true of course, and its very important to us for trade, peace and romantic "United Ireland" reasons. It is also of course, your border. It is not just the Northern Irish/Irish border, it is the border that seperates the United Kingdom, your country, from Ireland. It seems to me that in London it is very easy to not think about the practicalities of day to day life in border communities in Tyrone, Fermanagah, Armagh and Derry but even if they are far from your homes, they are a part of your country. Forget the political stuff for a moment, forget the peace process, think about what your life would be like if a 10 minute journey suddenly had 4 border crossings. The border is a tangled mess, you cross in and out of the two countries without realising it, and its great. Implementing a border will tear communities apart. Communities in your country.
A few bits and pieces for those that are interested (was distressed to read the Brendan Simms piece linked by @stonemuse yesterday, but purely out of bitterness and spite, I used to meet him occasionally when we were both undergraduates, and he was back in Dublin).
Just spoke to a pal of mine (a big remainer) and asked for his solution ideas for the NI/ROI question.
He said, "Ireland is an Island, it's time we stopped trying to cling on to the past and let it go" I asked, "what about NI's previous contribution to UK taxes/infrastructure/military etc?" He said " Nth. Ire. costs the UK a chunk, and it's time to let it go"
I didn't really have a response to that. Any thoughts?
It makes logical sense, but is also madness - I'm sure that someone into these things would point out that it's probably the kind of solution that a psycopathic mind (in managerial terms) would recommend.
It's about as likely that there could be a clean break from Northern Ireland as there could be a "Clean Brexit" that retains all the UK's current trading advantages.
The problem for the UK is that it cannot simply wash its hands of Northern Ireland and walk away. If that was possible, it would have done it long ago.
The formation of Northern Ireland was the direct result of a fairly obvious threat on the part of a significant element of Irish Unionism (as it then was) to spark civil war.
Just as with the Dissident Republicans, the overall numbers of those Loyalists willing, at the moment, to engage in violence are probably fairly limited, but these sort of things have a habit of spiralling out of control fairly quickly.
Loyalists have a very conditional loyalty to the state, and I would not wish to take for granted any outcome, but would be surprised if they would accept such a proposal.
It may be worth pointing out that at least one poster (@cafcfan?) made very clear in advance of the Brexit referendum that Northern Ireland costs the UK an awful lot more than EU membership, without any of the financial benefits that are provided by EU membership - so that, on purely economic terms it makes far more sense for the UK to depart the island of Ireland than it does the EU.
I very much doubt that there is any way to avoid chaos in exiting Ireland, particularly if the UK Government determined that it wanted to break up the UK to meet any current Brexit timescales.
And, for what it's worth, I'm assuming that the decision-making and negotiations would not be being conducted by the current Brain's Trust (I certainly trust that they only have the one brain between them).
Northern Ireland leaving the UK and rejoining the rest of the Island is an inevitability at this point. But it won't happen soon. The majority of the population of Great Britain care little for NI, which was evidenced in the reaction in the media to the DUP joining the Government, as well as how little thought NI and the border were given in the run up to Brexit. While giving up a part of the UK would hurt, and would be a financial burden for Ireland, it would be beneficial to the UK, NI and Ireland in the long run But there are too many entrenched Unionists still to this day, as you can see from every word that comes out of the DUP. That population is shrinking (as are the staunch republicans) but as it shrinks the remaining group hold on to their traditions tighter. It will happen eventually, and in many of our lifetimes, but it needs to happen naturally of its own accord, and only when the people of Northern Ireland want it. An independent Scotland would move this along massively as the Unionist community are far more closely tied to Scotland than to England and Wales both historically and culturally. If the rest of the Union is just England and Wales, Northern Ireland will be a little lost.
Just off out today for a number of external appointments so only had a skim read of that.
But I would be interested to know when I ever stated that the EU did cause any of that?
I didn't say that you stated such a thing. I was following up on your New Statesman article from the Labour Leave bloke. He certainly seems to believe that the EU is the driving force behind pretty much all of that list.
I on the other hand believe (and can demonstrate) that within the EU the Brits have been pursuing that agenda with the other members, who have adopted some of them with misgivings, modifications and now downright regrets. Having foisted all this shit on them we are now offski. We really are like the garrulous and overbearing Golf Club member.
At the risk of repeating myself yet again, I have no interest in staying in a club that no longer works as it should ... as admitted by the EU, Merkel, Macron etc etc.
Macron’s most recent announcement is that a “profound transformation” of the EU with deeper political integration is required. And he is right ... but that is not what I wish to be part of.
In early December, the commission will publish proposals for a eurozone finance minister and other reforms. That just means more integration not a ‘multi-speed’ Europe.
I don’t want to bore you saying the same stuff again and again, but I believe the EU can only work as it should with full fiscal union. But that will never be accepted by most Europeans. So the EU cannot be the effective entity to which it wishes to transform.
Why do you continue to conflate the Eurozone with the EU? It is the Eurozone which needs to fix defects in the architecture and that will inevitably lead to a shared approach on many matters. Where Merkel differs from Macron is that she was offering grants (bribes) to assist Eurozone member states to make structural reforms which in turn would make them more effective and competitive. And so reduce the risk burden on richer countries.
You are confusing @Dippenhall who has taken your post and run with a "leave" fairy tale about a united states of Europe.
The reality (and I know that this might hurt) is that there are 19 countries in the Euro plus Bulgaria considering joining. That leaves the UK who are leaving plus the scandis and much of Eastern Europe. These countries will have every opportunity to either join the Euro or stay outside. And perhaps there isn't that much difference between the approach of Norway in the EEA and SM and Sweden/Denmark who are in the EU but maintain their own Krona on a floating exchange rate.
But let's not spend too much time talking about sensible Scandi options because Leave appear to have dropped any pretense that these actually exist as viable solutions. Quite remarkable given that the Norway option featured so heavily just 18 months ago!
The electorate have been conned on this just as they were with the £350M per week gift for the NHS.
The fact is that some are simply going round in circles discussing straw man arguments devised by people working for Dacre and Murdoch. These were designed to frighten people into voting "leave" . And now the latest line is to blame the EU for the eventual outcome.
The most ironic claim of course is the "imminent collapse of the Euro" and the need to move away as fast as possible. Eurozone growth has been revised up again at 2.2% for this year with 2% forecast for 2018.
People are writing off the Euro when it is barely a generation old ffs. Think of all the crises the British pound has gone through over its lifetime. If Brexiters had adopted the same attitude to the pound as they have to the Euro they would have resorted to hiding gold sovereigns under the floorboards ages ago. Paranoid flounderers, the lot of them.
Whatever one's opinion, I would recommend reading it including where the votes taken on the wording are recorded (the Select Committee did split, with poor Sammy Wilson being on the losing side, I know I, for one, shed a tear).
David Davis now threatening to resign over Damian Green scandal.
Considering how pivotal his role is currently, the issue of Green stepping down amidst a fairly disgusting sleaze scandal seems very trivial.
Looks very much like the flimiest pretext possible to washing his hands of this Brexit business because he realises how utterly impossible his job is and he doesn't want to forever be marked with the shitstain that is Brexit.
David Davis now threatening to resign over Damian Green scandal.
Considering how pivotal his role is currently, the issue of Green stepping down amidst a fairly disgusting sleaze scandal seems very trivial.
Looks very much like the flimiest pretext possible to washing his hands of this Brexit business because he realises how utterly impossible his job is and he doesn't want to forever be marked with the shitstain that is Brexit.
I have to say my sympathies are with Damian Green and Davis here. The idea that a cabinet minister should lose his job because some judgemental prissy prig of an ex police officer thought he had the right to copy and keep confidential and legal information found on a computer during an investigation is outrageous. The ex policeman who made made those copies and made them public should be prosecuted with the full force of the law.
f Brexit is going badly, it’s the fault of the Brexit elite: stop trying to blame the 48 per cent You won. Get over it.
BY JONN ELLEDGE
Brexit, its supporters still seem convinced, is going swimmingly. They’ll tell you, if pushed, that none of the dire predictions of economic chaos have come to pass; that the lack of progress in the talks represents EU brinkmanship, rather than genuine failure of negotiation; and that businesses don’t care about silly things like regulatory harmonisation anyway.
I’m not convinced – the lack of a plan for the Irish border that will simultaneously satisfy the Republic, the Democratic Unionist Party, the Tory Brexit elite and the laws of physics has certainly given me pause for thought – but it’s fair to say I was always primed to be negative about this whole process, so perhaps I’m wrong. Perhaps everything is going exactly to plan. Perhaps the moon is made of cheese.
Just in case I’m not, though, I want to get one thing straight: none of what is happening, now or in the future, is the fault of Remainers. If Brexit does turn into the disaster that it threatens to, then the blame can legitimately be attached to David Cameron, and Ukip, and the current Cabinet, and even the EU itself. But none of what is to come will be the fault of those of us who always thought it was a bloody silly idea in the first place, and our enthusiasm or otherwise as the government has failed to get a decent deal is neither here nor there.
This shouldn’t need saying, of course, yet somehow it does. Ever since the vote, the 48 per cent have been exhorted to get behind Brexit, as if 27 other EU states with electorates of their own care even slightly whether Britain can put up a united front.
At times, the blame game has become even more explicit, as those who question the priorities or competence of individual ministers are told that our lack of faith is ruining Britain’s chances. It feels uncomfortably like we’re being lined up as a scapegoat – like this story ends with David Davis howling that he would have gotten away with it if it weren’t for those meddling Remainers.
It’s bollocks, of course: the difficulty of making this process work for us was one of the best arguments for voting against Brexit in the first place. People voted Remain for all sorts of reasons – identity, a love of travel, a well-founded hatred of Nigel Farage. But one of the most compelling arguments was that Brexit was going to be hard, and that we didn’t believe for a moment that the people who’d end up negotiating it were actually up to the job. There is a reason that every British prime minister still walking the earth, up to and including the current one, entirely opposed this clusterfuck.
Even after the vote, some kind of sanity still seemed plausible. The obvious arrangement is, to use a line shamelessly stolen from Stephen Bush, “Norway, but with immigration instead of fish”: single market membership, but with a tighter hold on immigration policy. That would seem to satisfy the expectations of most of those who voted for Brexit, and while it would have been worse than actually being a member of the EU – would have meant paying more money for less influence – it would have the advantage of not steering the entire British economy straight off the side of a cliff.
Agreeing such a deal, though, would have required a realistic assessment of both what Britain could offer and what the EU might want. It would have required an honesty about the fact that, since the EU’s priority was to show that there is a cost to leaving the club, Britain would need to be ready and willing to actually cover that cost. And it would have required good will, not just in Brussels, but in 26 other national capitals.
That we find ourselves, as the clock starts to run down, with precisely none of those things is in no way the fault of Remainers. It’s the fault of Conservative party more frightened of its own right flank than of the economic consequences of a Hard Brexit, and a government peopled by ministers more concerned with the succession than with anything as trivial as the national interest. It’s the fault of a Brexit elite who knowingly misled voters about the costs and benefits of Brexit to win themselves the referendum, and who dismiss all attempts to hold them to account as “project fear”. It’s the fault of an entire political and media establishment who mistakenly believe, just because they don’t read the German or the Irish press, that they are somehow incapable of reading ours.
Brexit is the biggest, most difficult foreign policy challenge this country has faced in 70 years – and making it work would require serious effort from serious people. But we don’t have serious people. Instead, we have Theresa May, and Boris Johnson, and – let us not forget a man who was literally fired from a previous Cabinet, after the head of the civil service described his actions as a security risk – Liam Fox. At the point when the thinking person’s Brexiteer is David Davis, a man who under 18 months ago seemed somehow unaware that the Republic of Ireland was a separate sovereign state, you know we are in trouble.
It was entirely predictable that Brexit would go wrong. It was arguably avoidable, even after the vote. That we are rushing headlong towards the cliff anyway is entirely the fault of a Conservative Brexit elite that long ago began to believe its own deluded, post-imperial bullshit.
None of this is the fault of Remainers, you know. You won, Brexiteers: get over it. This is your mess, now. Own it.
David Davis now threatening to resign over Damian Green scandal.
Considering how pivotal his role is currently, the issue of Green stepping down amidst a fairly disgusting sleaze scandal seems very trivial.
Looks very much like the flimiest pretext possible to washing his hands of this Brexit business because he realises how utterly impossible his job is and he doesn't want to forever be marked with the shitstain that is Brexit.
I have to say my sympathies are with Damian Green and Davis here. The idea that a cabinet minister should lose his job because some judgemental prissy prig of an ex police officer thought he had the right to copy and keep confidential and legal information found on a computer during an investigation is outrageous. The ex policeman who made made those copies and made them public should be prosecuted with the full force of the law.
I have some sympathy with this view but...... it’s not now only the fact that he has allegedly downloaded porn on his computer...so what. The problem now is that should it be proven that he has or at least beyond reasonable doubt, that he has then you must question the mans integrity in categorically denying it. I don’t believe you can have a Minister a proven liar.
David Davis now threatening to resign over Damian Green scandal.
Considering how pivotal his role is currently, the issue of Green stepping down amidst a fairly disgusting sleaze scandal seems very trivial.
Looks very much like the flimiest pretext possible to washing his hands of this Brexit business because he realises how utterly impossible his job is and he doesn't want to forever be marked with the shitstain that is Brexit.
I have to say my sympathies are with Damian Green and Davis here. The idea that a cabinet minister should lose his job because some judgemental prissy prig of an ex police officer thought he had the right to copy and keep confidential and legal information found on a computer during an investigation is outrageous. The ex policeman who made made those copies and made them public should be prosecuted with the full force of the law.
I have some sympathy with this view but...... it’s not now only the fact that he has allegedly downloaded porn on his computer...so what. The problem now is that should it be proven that he has or at least beyond reasonable doubt, that he has then you must question the mans integrity in categorically denying it. I don’t believe you can have a Minister a proven liar.
Disagree. He is the victim here. Even if he did download the images no law was broken and it is therefore a waste of police time trying to prove he did. He has stated he did not download the legal images. No law was broken and it is not the police's job to pursue the matter just to prove he is lying. They should drop the case immediately and prosecute the only criminal in this case, the ex police officer who made the copies and made them public.
David Davis now threatening to resign over Damian Green scandal.
Considering how pivotal his role is currently, the issue of Green stepping down amidst a fairly disgusting sleaze scandal seems very trivial.
Looks very much like the flimiest pretext possible to washing his hands of this Brexit business because he realises how utterly impossible his job is and he doesn't want to forever be marked with the shitstain that is Brexit.
I have to say my sympathies are with Damian Green and Davis here. The idea that a cabinet minister should lose his job because some judgemental prissy prig of an ex police officer thought he had the right to copy and keep confidential and legal information found on a computer during an investigation is outrageous. The ex policeman who made made those copies and made them public should be prosecuted with the full force of the law.
I have some sympathy with this view but...... it’s not now only the fact that he has allegedly downloaded porn on his computer...so what. The problem now is that should it be proven that he has or at least beyond reasonable doubt, that he has then you must question the mans integrity in categorically denying it. I don’t believe you can have a Minister a proven liar.
Disagree. He is the victim here. Even if he did download the images no law was broken and it is therefore a waste of police time trying to prove he did. He has stated he did not download the legal images. No law was broken and it is not the police's job to pursue the matter just to prove he is lying. They should drop the case immediately and prosecute the only criminal in this case, the ex police officer who made the copies and made them public.
We don’t often agree on this thread, but on this occasion I totally agree.
True as that might be, Green's position is hardly tenable. Where else could you still keep your job regardless of how the incriminating evidence came to light?
True as that might be, Green's position is hardly tenable. Where else could you still keep your job regardless of how the incriminating evidence came to light?
First Minister in Northern Ireland is generally a good place to look, or, failing that, FIFA have exceptional standards of probity...
True as that might be, Green's position is hardly tenable. Where else could you still keep your job regardless of how the incriminating evidence came to light?
David Davis now threatening to resign over Damian Green scandal.
Considering how pivotal his role is currently, the issue of Green stepping down amidst a fairly disgusting sleaze scandal seems very trivial.
Looks very much like the flimiest pretext possible to washing his hands of this Brexit business because he realises how utterly impossible his job is and he doesn't want to forever be marked with the shitstain that is Brexit.
I have to say my sympathies are with Damian Green and Davis here. The idea that a cabinet minister should lose his job because some judgemental prissy prig of an ex police officer thought he had the right to copy and keep confidential and legal information found on a computer during an investigation is outrageous. The ex policeman who made made those copies and made them public should be prosecuted with the full force of the law.
I have some sympathy with this view but...... it’s not now only the fact that he has allegedly downloaded porn on his computer...so what. The problem now is that should it be proven that he has or at least beyond reasonable doubt, that he has then you must question the mans integrity in categorically denying it. I don’t believe you can have a Minister a proven liar.
Disagree. He is the victim here. Even if he did download the images no law was broken and it is therefore a waste of police time trying to prove he did. He has stated he did not download the legal images. No law was broken and it is not the police's job to pursue the matter just to prove he is lying. They should drop the case immediately and prosecute the only criminal in this case, the ex police officer who made the copies and made them public.
I do agree. I really do. However. You can’t put a genie back in the bottle. The rights and wrongs of the spurious investigation notwithstanding, We now have information however acquired that shows that a senior minister has broken HOC rules. ( big deal) but importantly has vehemently denied the allegations. If those allegations are true he has to go. If he’s prepared to lie about that what else has he or would he be prepared to lie about.
Yes he’s a victim but he’s also a minister where his character has to be unblemished in terms of his integrity.
True as that might be, Green's position is hardly tenable. Where else could you still keep your job regardless of how the incriminating evidence came to light?
What incriminating evidence?
Watching blue movies on a work laptop. Not a criminal offence but in any other line of work certainly a sackable offence.
True as that might be, Green's position is hardly tenable. Where else could you still keep your job regardless of how the incriminating evidence came to light?
What incriminating evidence?
Watching blue movies on a work laptop. Not a criminal offence but in any other line of work certainly a sackable offence.
Even if it’s only a disciplinary offence. If it’s true and he has denied it. He has to go.
Comments
"Her Majesty's Government have a clear understanding that the DUP will not countenance any arrangement that could lead to a new border being created in the Irish Sea.
Indeed, the Prime Minister has been categorical on this matter in the House of Commons.
We reiterated that United Kingdom-Republic of Ireland arrangements may be necessary as we exit the EU but there can be no arrangements agreed that compromise the integrity of the UK single market and place barriers, real or perceived, to the free movement of goods, services and capital between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom".
However, the transition period still means we leave the EU in March 2019-no more MEPs for example and exclusion from all the main bodies.
At that stage it will need a campaign to rejoin to get back in.
They say they do not want a hard border, I have my doubts if that is quite true, but are more determined to avoid anything that suggests special status in comparison to the rest of the UK, even if that is what the UK wants. Which is odd, we've been special over here for years.
The desire to reaffirm and retain the type of relationship that they want with the rest of the UK trumps all other policy choices - though the British people converting to Catholicism might, just, cause them to wonder.
We obviously have full control over non-EU immigration and the net figure I saw was 120,000, (and 110,000 from the EU.)
So if the figures are correct, in the time since the referendum an EU citizen has decided to come to UK (long-term), about every 5 minutes.
A country that is heading over the cliff of Brexit where there is almost zero unemployment and a supposedly "nasty" atmosphere towards foreigners.
According to Google thats an 11.4km journey, that should take about 10 minutes. Four border crossings.
As for the talk that the EU is using Ireland, come off the stage. As soon as Brexit was confirmed our government was working on pushing the EU into making sure Northern Ireland and the border was an important issue.
The impression I get from Brexit Supporters is that the border is an Irish issue. Its the "Irish border". Thats true of course, and its very important to us for trade, peace and romantic "United Ireland" reasons. It is also of course, your border. It is not just the Northern Irish/Irish border, it is the border that seperates the United Kingdom, your country, from Ireland. It seems to me that in London it is very easy to not think about the practicalities of day to day life in border communities in Tyrone, Fermanagah, Armagh and Derry but even if they are far from your homes, they are a part of your country. Forget the political stuff for a moment, forget the peace process, think about what your life would be like if a 10 minute journey suddenly had 4 border crossings. The border is a tangled mess, you cross in and out of the two countries without realising it, and its great. Implementing a border will tear communities apart. Communities in your country.
An independent Scotland would move this along massively as the Unionist community are far more closely tied to Scotland than to England and Wales both historically and culturally. If the rest of the Union is just England and Wales, Northern Ireland will be a little lost.
You are confusing @Dippenhall who has taken your post and run with a "leave" fairy tale about a united states of Europe.
The reality (and I know that this might hurt) is that there are 19 countries in the Euro plus Bulgaria considering joining. That leaves the UK who are leaving plus the scandis and much of Eastern Europe. These countries will have every opportunity to either join the Euro or stay outside. And perhaps there isn't that much difference between the approach of Norway in the EEA and SM and Sweden/Denmark who are in the EU but maintain their own Krona on a floating exchange rate.
But let's not spend too much time talking about sensible Scandi options because Leave appear to have dropped any pretense that these actually exist as viable solutions. Quite remarkable given that the Norway option featured so heavily just 18 months ago!
The electorate have been conned on this just as they were with the £350M per week gift for the NHS.
The fact is that some are simply going round in circles discussing straw man arguments devised by people working for Dacre and Murdoch. These were designed to frighten people into voting "leave" . And now the latest line is to blame the EU for the eventual outcome.
The most ironic claim of course is the "imminent collapse of the Euro" and the need to move away as fast as possible. Eurozone growth has been revised up again at 2.2% for this year with 2% forecast for 2018.
Whatever one's opinion, I would recommend reading it including where the votes taken on the wording are recorded (the Select Committee did split, with poor Sammy Wilson being on the losing side, I know I, for one, shed a tear).
Considering how pivotal his role is currently, the issue of Green stepping down amidst a fairly disgusting sleaze scandal seems very trivial.
Looks very much like the flimiest pretext possible to washing his hands of this Brexit business because he realises how utterly impossible his job is and he doesn't want to forever be marked with the shitstain that is Brexit.
f Brexit is going badly, it’s the fault of the Brexit elite: stop trying to blame the 48 per cent
You won. Get over it.
BY
JONN ELLEDGE
Brexit, its supporters still seem convinced, is going swimmingly. They’ll tell you, if pushed, that none of the dire predictions of economic chaos have come to pass; that the lack of progress in the talks represents EU brinkmanship, rather than genuine failure of negotiation; and that businesses don’t care about silly things like regulatory harmonisation anyway.
I’m not convinced – the lack of a plan for the Irish border that will simultaneously satisfy the Republic, the Democratic Unionist Party, the Tory Brexit elite and the laws of physics has certainly given me pause for thought – but it’s fair to say I was always primed to be negative about this whole process, so perhaps I’m wrong. Perhaps everything is going exactly to plan. Perhaps the moon is made of cheese.
Just in case I’m not, though, I want to get one thing straight: none of what is happening, now or in the future, is the fault of Remainers. If Brexit does turn into the disaster that it threatens to, then the blame can legitimately be attached to David Cameron, and Ukip, and the current Cabinet, and even the EU itself. But none of what is to come will be the fault of those of us who always thought it was a bloody silly idea in the first place, and our enthusiasm or otherwise as the government has failed to get a decent deal is neither here nor there.
This shouldn’t need saying, of course, yet somehow it does. Ever since the vote, the 48 per cent have been exhorted to get behind Brexit, as if 27 other EU states with electorates of their own care even slightly whether Britain can put up a united front.
At times, the blame game has become even more explicit, as those who question the priorities or competence of individual ministers are told that our lack of faith is ruining Britain’s chances. It feels uncomfortably like we’re being lined up as a scapegoat – like this story ends with David Davis howling that he would have gotten away with it if it weren’t for those meddling Remainers.
It’s bollocks, of course: the difficulty of making this process work for us was one of the best arguments for voting against Brexit in the first place. People voted Remain for all sorts of reasons – identity, a love of travel, a well-founded hatred of Nigel Farage. But one of the most compelling arguments was that Brexit was going to be hard, and that we didn’t believe for a moment that the people who’d end up negotiating it were actually up to the job. There is a reason that every British prime minister still walking the earth, up to and including the current one, entirely opposed this clusterfuck.
Even after the vote, some kind of sanity still seemed plausible. The obvious arrangement is, to use a line shamelessly stolen from Stephen Bush, “Norway, but with immigration instead of fish”: single market membership, but with a tighter hold on immigration policy. That would seem to satisfy the expectations of most of those who voted for Brexit, and while it would have been worse than actually being a member of the EU – would have meant paying more money for less influence – it would have the advantage of not steering the entire British economy straight off the side of a cliff.
Agreeing such a deal, though, would have required a realistic assessment of both what Britain could offer and what the EU might want. It would have required an honesty about the fact that, since the EU’s priority was to show that there is a cost to leaving the club, Britain would need to be ready and willing to actually cover that cost. And it would have required good will, not just in Brussels, but in 26 other national capitals.
That we find ourselves, as the clock starts to run down, with precisely none of those things is in no way the fault of Remainers. It’s the fault of Conservative party more frightened of its own right flank than of the economic consequences of a Hard Brexit, and a government peopled by ministers more concerned with the succession than with anything as trivial as the national interest. It’s the fault of a Brexit elite who knowingly misled voters about the costs and benefits of Brexit to win themselves the referendum, and who dismiss all attempts to hold them to account as “project fear”. It’s the fault of an entire political and media establishment who mistakenly believe, just because they don’t read the German or the Irish press, that they are somehow incapable of reading ours.
Brexit is the biggest, most difficult foreign policy challenge this country has faced in 70 years – and making it work would require serious effort from serious people. But we don’t have serious people. Instead, we have Theresa May, and Boris Johnson, and – let us not forget a man who was literally fired from a previous Cabinet, after the head of the civil service described his actions as a security risk – Liam Fox. At the point when the thinking person’s Brexiteer is David Davis, a man who under 18 months ago seemed somehow unaware that the Republic of Ireland was a separate sovereign state, you know we are in trouble.
It was entirely predictable that Brexit would go wrong. It was arguably avoidable, even after the vote. That we are rushing headlong towards the cliff anyway is entirely the fault of a Conservative Brexit elite that long ago began to believe its own deluded, post-imperial bullshit.
None of this is the fault of Remainers, you know. You won, Brexiteers: get over it. This is your mess, now. Own it.
Yes he’s a victim but he’s also a minister where his character has to be unblemished in terms of his integrity.