Or are the usual suspects throwing insults around, on both sides, to massage their own false sense of self worth and importance?
Having read through most of the last 200 or so posts that I'd missed out on it seems that everyone is either lying, talking 'shit', failing to understand what others are saying, misquoting or just linking the Guardian newspaper.
It's nearly Christmas, everyone. Crack a smile, as hard as that may be.
Let's not forget that we've also got a lovely royal wedding to look forward to. That should bring the country together.
Millwall's take on royal wedding in case you missd it stay classy
I see what you're trying to do, you naughty man you.
Is that actually 'Millwall's take on royal wedding'? or is it actually the take of some absolute f*cking idiots seeking to be as offensive as they can be in cyber world?
From now on I'll take the most extreme views posted on here and use those as the face and set in concrete views of Charlton Athletic.
Stay classy indeed
Also, I'd be very careful as the grammar and spelling police have been out in force lately. Stay safe.
Or are the usual suspects throwing insults around, on both sides, to massage their own false sense of self worth and importance?
Having read through most of the last 200 or so posts that I'd missed out on it seems that everyone is either lying, talking 'shit', failing to understand what others are saying, misquoting or just linking the Guardian newspaper.
It's nearly Christmas, everyone. Crack a smile, as hard as that may be.
Let's not forget that we've also got a lovely royal wedding to look forward to. That should bring the country together.
Or are the usual suspects throwing insults around, on both sides, to massage their own false sense of self worth and importance?
Having read through most of the last 200 or so posts that I'd missed out on it seems that everyone is either lying, talking 'shit', failing to understand what others are saying, misquoting or just linking the Guardian newspaper.
It's nearly Christmas, everyone. Crack a smile, as hard as that may be.
Let's not forget that we've also got a lovely royal wedding to look forward to. That should bring the country together.
Some seem to think it's the official line of the club, which is a shame considering the all encompassing, non-judgemental, inclusive, progressive outlook that is promoted on here.
*suggests other posters are throwing insults around*
*insults all other posters*
Good work, BBW.
Meanwhile, does anyone think it's a bit "off" of David Davis to treat Parliament with obvious and embarrassing contempt by obfuscating and reacting the impact analysis?
Leaving aside the transparent attempts to bury the news I think it's fecking outrageous they are not giving the Parliamentary Select Committee, you know the lot overseeing the Brexit process, the full reports. Then again I appear to be in a minority in thinking it's also bang out of order to award executive powers to individual ministers to make law that will effect us all for years to come, so maybe it's just me.
Some plum of a Tory Brexiteer on Today earlier basically stating the Committee (that he sits on) can't be trusted with the info.
Chill folks. We are told not to have the brexit debate again, and that those who voted for brexit knew what they were voting for, all they have to do now is implement it. It is their call. Where will they start? How about what to do about the end of air travel as we know it today? Hey, you brexiters who knew what you were voting for, what happens with air travel? Can you tell us?
Yes off to Nuremburg Monday... Fly to Cologne then just up the road according to fiish/chizz.
There are about five airports closer to Nurnberg than Cologne-Bonn. Including one which is helpfully called Nurnberg Airport.
Never mind. You can get to Nurnberg by train on the excellent ICEs. And it won't send your travel expenses into orbit. A good way to see how Europe really works.
You should stick by me when venturing into the heart of Europe. I can save you or your company money, leaving you even more to spend on beer, while discussing the EU with your colleagues, and then writing up your findings for us afterwards.
Chill folks. We are told not to have the brexit debate again, and that those who voted for brexit knew what they were voting for, all they have to do now is implement it. It is their call. Where will they start? How about what to do about the end of air travel as we know it today? Hey, you brexiters who knew what you were voting for, what happens with air travel? Can you tell us?
Yes off to Nuremburg Monday... Fly to Cologne then just up the road according to fiish/chizz.
There are about five airports closer to Nurnberg than Cologne-Bonn. Including one which is helpfully called Nurnberg Airport.
Never mind. You can get to Nurnberg by train on the excellent ICEs. And it won't send your travel expenses into orbit. A good way to see how Europe really works.
You should stick by me when venturing into the heart of Europe. I can save you or your company money, leaving you even more to spend on beer, while discussing the EU with your colleagues, and then writing up your findings for us afterwards.
Anything else I can help you with?
Agreed PA. I’ve flown to Nurnberg on four occasions when going on to Erlangen or Siemens City as it’s known. Quite why you would fly to Cologne and train it is odd unless you want to see a bit of the country of course. Which to be fair would be a nice option if you have the time. Very good Christmas Market there too although I don’t think the best. The stollen is amazing.
A few bits and pieces for those that are interested (was distressed to read the Brendan Simms piece linked by @stonemuse yesterday, but purely out of bitterness and spite, I used to meet him occasionally when we were both undergraduates, and he was back in Dublin).
A few bits and pieces for those that are interested (was distressed to read the Brendan Simms piece linked by @stonemuse yesterday, but purely out of bitterness and spite, I used to meet him occasionally when we were both undergraduates, and he was back in Dublin).
A few bits and pieces for those that are interested (was distressed to read the Brendan Simms piece linked by @stonemuse yesterday, but purely out of bitterness and spite, I used to meet him occasionally when we were both undergraduates, and he was back in Dublin).
Thank you for posting your latest set of interesting articles. I haven't had time to go through all of them in detail; they do though seem to me to have something in common, which is that, inevitably they view "the EU' through the prism of the island viewpoint. Living in the heart of the EU, I simply don't recognise what they describe through that prism.
Take briefly the Spectator piece (although why we should read anything from that hateful rag after its appalling attack on Prince Harry's fiancee, I dont know - and I am no royalist). The magazine fails to tell us who the author is, and what his credentials are, but it has a most patronising tone, portraying the EU as squabbling national politicians. Without Mutti to bang them into shape, the EU will fall apart, he avers. Well, it could. Plays well to a certain British audience, eh? Does it make you feel better, like a nice cup of tea and a crumpet on a cold winter afternoon? OK..now tell me, why is it more likely that the EU will "fall apart" than that the UK will "fall apart", and which is more likely to happen soon? And when it comes to the squabbling children which masquerade as politicians, are we really better equipped than the EU nations to tackle the threat? The dangers exist for both entities. It is xenophobic nonsense to suggest that the UK is equipped with superior adults who can better tackle the dangers. I think you know that.
Moving on to your article by one of the Labour Leave types. I was struck by this line
Globalisation has created oligarchies of financiers, investors and high-skilled professionals that dominate national politics. The EU expands their opportunities and its rules work in their interests.
"In their interests". Once again a little Englander portrayal of the EU as some kind of supra natural power of little green men. Not surprising from a group whose luminaries include Kate Hoey and Gisela Stuart. But what "rules" is he referring to? I struggled to think, but maybe he is thinking of the Single Market "rules" which the Commission sets for the purpose of creating market conditions. Here is the reality. These rules are the joint development of the EU national government representatives. They are subject to interpretation by national governments and can be changed by a majority of such governments. And guess which EU country was the driving force behind these rules? The UK. They were originally developed in the early 90s and the UK (still in the Thatcher era, even if she was physically gone) dominated the discussion about the wisdom of privatising utilities. Certainly as we know, these privatised utilities have become a gravy train for the 'oligarchies' the author refers to. Now the thing is, do we in the UK have any intention to break up these oligarchies? I don't think so. Do ypu personally think the privatisation of water is a triumph of British progressive politics, which benefits the little people? Well that has been foisted on the whole of the EU by us. That said, some EU countries resist, and I believe that their collective experience will eventually mean there will be a consensus for changing some of the rules so that utilities are run more for the benefit of society as a whole than for shareholders. As I've several times pointed out, the French are amazed that we in the UK allow their State companies like EDF to take control of our strategic assets, but they are damned if they will allow German equivalents to take control of theirs. This article shows the pathetic tragedy of the Labour leave types. Politically there are many mainstream centre left politicians across Europe who share their misgivings about privatised utilities, but instead of working with them, the Little Englanders want to raise two fingers, and instead dream of taking power to implement Socialism in One Country. Twats. Are you with them, brother @stonemuse ?
A few bits and pieces for those that are interested (was distressed to read the Brendan Simms piece linked by @stonemuse yesterday, but purely out of bitterness and spite, I used to meet him occasionally when we were both undergraduates, and he was back in Dublin).
Just spoke to a pal of mine (a big remainer) and asked for his solution ideas for the NI/ROI question.
He said, "Ireland is an Island, it's time we stopped trying to cling on to the past and let it go" I asked, "what about NI's previous contribution to UK taxes/infrastructure/military etc?" He said " Nth. Ire. costs the UK a chunk, and it's time to let it go"
I didn't really have a response to that. Any thoughts?
A few bits and pieces for those that are interested (was distressed to read the Brendan Simms piece linked by @stonemuse yesterday, but purely out of bitterness and spite, I used to meet him occasionally when we were both undergraduates, and he was back in Dublin).
Just spoke to a pal of mine (a big remainer) and asked for his solution ideas for the NI/ROI question.
He said, "Ireland is an Island, it's time we stopped trying to cling on to the past and let it go" I asked, "what about NI's previous contribution to UK taxes/infrastructure/military etc?" He said " Nth. Ire. costs the UK a chunk, and it's time to let it go"
I didn't really have a response to that. Any thoughts?
A few bits and pieces for those that are interested (was distressed to read the Brendan Simms piece linked by @stonemuse yesterday, but purely out of bitterness and spite, I used to meet him occasionally when we were both undergraduates, and he was back in Dublin).
Just spoke to a pal of mine (a big remainer) and asked for his solution ideas for the NI/ROI question.
He said, "Ireland is an Island, it's time we stopped trying to cling on to the past and let it go" I asked, "what about NI's previous contribution to UK taxes/infrastructure/military etc?" He said " Nth. Ire. costs the UK a chunk, and it's time to let it go"
I didn't really have a response to that. Any thoughts?
It would make the troubles faced from the late 60s to the GFA look like a chimps' tea party in comparison.
Do you really think the UK wants to 'cling on' to NI?
Well, that is how you feel. Whereas I feel liberated by the Brexit decision and more confident that we can solve the UK's problems because we have a powerful democratic instinct expressed through the vote. That is why yiou are depressed and my concern is only that you and others will undermine our democracy by encouraging the elite to ignore the democratic decision of the people.
That is much more important to me than what people outside the UK think of us.
This is a variation on a multiple-unaswered question I've asked you several times before, but let's have another go.
How does this feeling of 'liberation' manifest itself in your daily life? Liberation means the freedom to do things that you wanted to do but were prevented from doing so. Could you - finally - give me an idea of what these things are?
Not to worry though, the Brexiteers are "liberated by the Brexit decision and more confident that we can solve the UK's problems ". Just as well really, because there's now a heap more problems to solve. Thanks Brexit.
A few bits and pieces for those that are interested (was distressed to read the Brendan Simms piece linked by @stonemuse yesterday, but purely out of bitterness and spite, I used to meet him occasionally when we were both undergraduates, and he was back in Dublin).
Just spoke to a pal of mine (a big remainer) and asked for his solution ideas for the NI/ROI question.
He said, "Ireland is an Island, it's time we stopped trying to cling on to the past and let it go" I asked, "what about NI's previous contribution to UK taxes/infrastructure/military etc?" He said " Nth. Ire. costs the UK a chunk, and it's time to let it go"
I didn't really have a response to that. Any thoughts?
It makes logical sense, but is also madness - I'm sure that someone into these things would point out that it's probably the kind of solution that a psycopathic mind (in managerial terms) would recommend.
It's about as likely that there could be a clean break from Northern Ireland as there could be a "Clean Brexit" that retains all the UK's current trading advantages.
The problem for the UK is that it cannot simply wash its hands of Northern Ireland and walk away. If that was possible, it would have done it long ago.
The formation of Northern Ireland was the direct result of a fairly obvious threat on the part of a significant element of Irish Unionism (as it then was) to spark civil war.
Just as with the Dissident Republicans, the overall numbers of those Loyalists willing, at the moment, to engage in violence are probably fairly limited, but these sort of things have a habit of spiralling out of control fairly quickly.
Loyalists have a very conditional loyalty to the state, and I would not wish to take for granted any outcome, but would be surprised if they would accept such a proposal.
It may be worth pointing out that at least one poster (@cafcfan?) made very clear in advance of the Brexit referendum that Northern Ireland costs the UK an awful lot more than EU membership, without any of the financial benefits that are provided by EU membership - so that, on purely economic terms it makes far more sense for the UK to depart the island of Ireland than it does the EU.
I very much doubt that there is any way to avoid chaos in exiting Ireland, particularly if the UK Government determined that it wanted to break up the UK to meet any current Brexit timescales.
And, for what it's worth, I'm assuming that the decision-making and negotiations would not be being conducted by the current Brain's Trust (I certainly trust that they only have the one brain between them).
Not to worry though, the Brexiteers are "liberated by the Brexit decision and more confident that we can solve the UK's problems ". Just as well really, because there's now a heap more problems to solve. Thanks Brexit.
Dunno about anyone else but this afternoon I'm feeling proper liberated that I'm only 18 months and a cabinet reshuffle away from Jacob Rees Mogg sitting in an office in his pants, scratching his bollocks deciding which of my employment rights I get to keep. Yay!
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country. This is a very dangerous game and could backfire into violence if the brinkmanship continues.
Nay, nay, and thrice nay.
It's just not true.
Here's the thing, the EU have accepted the outcome of the EU referendum, no matter how much they may regret it.
But, even democracy does not happen in a vacuum. The democratic will of the UK (even if it was crystal clear what that us) extends to the limits of it's jurisdiction and no further, and those seeking to implement it have to take into account the legally binding agreements that the UK has made.
Just because people vote to, for example, "Make America Great Again", that vote does not make the desire reality.
So, also, the UK Government's desire to both have cake and eat it does not miraculously make everything it wants happen.
The UK position is that it wants out of the EU, Single Market and Customs Union, and it can leave - but it cannot expect to retain everything as it is now if it does so.
The UK have proposed, at best, vague and aspirational soundbites (unlikely to meet WTO requirements) about the future of the border between the UK and EU in Ireland.
The EU negotiators are representing the interests of the EU27, because that's what they are supposed to do. And the EU has very firm notions about its external customs border, which is fair enough, as it controls access to its Single Market.
The outlook and interests of the EU27 are not those of the UK Government, but they have suggested a way of maintaining a status quo regarding the Irish border.
The only way to have the frictionless border that the Conservatives and DUP say they want is to have a formal system of enshrining ongoing regulatory equivalence (not the same as Liam Fox's idea that, just because on day one, the regulations are the same that an FTA can be arranged at the drop of the hat).
The UK says no to that for the UK as a whole, and also for Northern Ireland. It's not the EU's (including Ireland) job to design a workable Brexit that respects the circumstances in Northern Irish politics (some might say the DUP should be keen, but apparently not), but they are trying. In the end, however, no matter how much they want to avoid a customs border in Ireland, if that is what has to happen it will.
The only reason that there may be brinkmanship is because the UK has wasted time by failing to engage with the Article 50 process, including the sequencing, which is mot only about money. The timetable was set out in advance, it's not like there's any real surprise that there is limited time.
As for the potential for matters to backfire into violence, at least in Northern Ireland, this was precisely the argument of Remainers that was widely dismissed as fearmongering. Those that seek violence need very little encouragement, but Brexit seems to be providing it in spades. I can only speak for those I know, but political divisions are hardening here - the willingness of nationalists to see themselves as Northern Irish is diminishing and, if the language of the DUP is anything to go by, things aren't much better within Unionism.
It was a mistake to agree on the sequencing-which they are regretting now. Once a trade deal is done a way will be found to minimise border controls. But that cannot be agreed in advance of a deal being agreed without agreeing in advance to a possible part of the deal. I am not surprised that attitudes are hardening because of this unnecessary posturing. It seems that in the Tory Party as well there are Remain MPs who resent the way this is being done by the EU.
'Once a trade deal is done a way will be found to minimise border controls'..go on, I'm all ears. Just to be helpful there are 400km of land border in Ireland, and at least 300 crossing points, so, do tell us about this way that will be found. Explain how the border would work if you are travelling from Gannons Cross to Clones on the N54/A3?
Not my job,mate. Unlike you I am not a trade negotiator nor a customs or border export. But I do know that when it comes to trading and making money, a way will be found.
Great response, i have a millionaire mate, ex army and formed his own technology company, he told me this week any businessman voting to stay in was in his words an effing idiot. His answer to why was that businessmen worth their salt are greedy, and they will find a way.. I know non millionaire businessmen here though will know better.
Yes we all know that millionaire businessmen like to put deliberate obstacles between them and making money but they'll find a way just because they're so businessy like that.
Which by the way, being greedy and "finding a way" is as close to mutually exclusive as you could get.
A few bits and pieces for those that are interested (was distressed to read the Brendan Simms piece linked by @stonemuse yesterday, but purely out of bitterness and spite, I used to meet him occasionally when we were both undergraduates, and he was back in Dublin).
Just spoke to a pal of mine (a big remainer) and asked for his solution ideas for the NI/ROI question.
He said, "Ireland is an Island, it's time we stopped trying to cling on to the past and let it go" I asked, "what about NI's previous contribution to UK taxes/infrastructure/military etc?" He said " Nth. Ire. costs the UK a chunk, and it's time to let it go"
I didn't really have a response to that. Any thoughts?
So because we can't come up with a solution to the border situation we should just start giving parts of our country away ? Should we hand Gibraltar over to the Spanish too ?
A few bits and pieces for those that are interested (was distressed to read the Brendan Simms piece linked by @stonemuse yesterday, but purely out of bitterness and spite, I used to meet him occasionally when we were both undergraduates, and he was back in Dublin).
Just spoke to a pal of mine (a big remainer) and asked for his solution ideas for the NI/ROI question.
He said, "Ireland is an Island, it's time we stopped trying to cling on to the past and let it go" I asked, "what about NI's previous contribution to UK taxes/infrastructure/military etc?" He said " Nth. Ire. costs the UK a chunk, and it's time to let it go"
I didn't really have a response to that. Any thoughts?
"It's an island". "Time we stopped clinging on to the past". "Let it go". "It costs the UK a chunk, and it's time to let it go".
Pretty compelling set of reasons there. But, if you ask me, I think we'll miss the Falklands.
This is a variation on a multiple-unaswered question I've asked you several times before, but let's have another go.
How does this feeling of 'liberation' manifest itself in your daily life? Liberation means the freedom to do things that you wanted to do but were prevented from doing so. Could you - finally - give me an idea of what these things are?
It is a fair question, Prague. I have felt for a long time that our political class and the various parties are stick in a short termist, managerial place which makes them incapable of dealing with society's problems. The tendency to 'kick the can down the road' rather than tackle problems head on is endemic throughout Europe. The EU is both emblematic of this approach but also is used by national politicians as an excuse for why they cannot act decively. The refendun markex a decisive turn against this form of politics and offers the hope that a new approach can be found. Our politicians will not be able to blame the EU any more and will be more directly accountable.
Well, that is how you feel. Whereas I feel liberated by the Brexit decision and more confident that we can solve the UK's problems because we have a powerful democratic instinct expressed through the vote. That is why yiou are depressed and my concern is only that you and others will undermine our democracy by encouraging the elite to ignore the democratic decision of the people.
That is much more important to me than what people outside the UK think of us.
Isn't the so called democratic decision of the people open to a whole spectrum of interpretations as to what that decision actually means?
This is a variation on a multiple-unaswered question I've asked you several times before, but let's have another go.
How does this feeling of 'liberation' manifest itself in your daily life? Liberation means the freedom to do things that you wanted to do but were prevented from doing so. Could you - finally - give me an idea of what these things are?
It is a fair question, Prague. I have felt for a long time that our political class and the various parties are stick in a short termist, managerial place which makes them incapable of dealing with society's problems. The tendency to 'kick the can down the road' rather than tackle problems head on is endemic throughout Europe. The EU is both emblematic of this approach but also is used by national politicians as an excuse for why they cannot act decively. The refendun markex a decisive turn against this form of politics and offers the hope that a new approach can be found. Our politicians will not be able to blame the EU any more and will be more directly accountable.
They will find somebody else to blame for their incompetence.
Thank you for posting your latest set of interesting articles. I haven't had time to go through all of them in detail; they do though seem to me to have something in common, which is that, inevitably they view "the EU' through the prism of the island viewpoint. Living in the heart of the EU, I simply don't recognise what they describe through that prism.
Take briefly the Spectator piece (although why we should read anything from that hateful rag after its appalling attack on Prince Harry's fiancee, I dont know - and I am no royalist). The magazine fails to tell us who the author is, and what his credentials are, but it has a most patronising tone, portraying the EU as squabbling national politicians. Without Mutti to bang them into shape, the EU will fall apart, he avers. Well, it could. Plays well to a certain British audience, eh? Does it make you feel better, like a nice cup of tea and a crumpet on a cold winter afternoon? OK..now tell me, why is it more likely that the EU will "fall apart" than that the UK will "fall apart", and which is more likely to happen soon? And when it comes to the squabbling children which masquerade as politicians, are we really better equipped than the EU nations to tackle the threat? The dangers exist for both entities. It is xenophobic nonsense to suggest that the UK is equipped with superior adults who can better tackle the dangers. I think you know that.
Moving on to your article by one of the Labour Leave types. I was struck by this line
Globalisation has created oligarchies of financiers, investors and high-skilled professionals that dominate national politics. The EU expands their opportunities and its rules work in their interests.
"In their interests". Once again a little Englander portrayal of the EU as some kind of supra natural power of little green men. Not surprising from a group whose luminaries include Kate Hoey and Gisela Stuart. But what "rules" is he referring to? I struggled to think, but maybe he is thinking of the Single Market "rules" which the Commission sets for the purpose of creating market conditions. Here is the reality. These rules are the joint development of the EU national government representatives. They are subject to interpretation by national governments and can be changed by a majority of such governments. And guess which EU country was the driving force behind these rules? The UK. They were originally developed in the early 90s and the UK (still in the Thatcher era, even if she was physically gone) dominated the discussion about the wisdom of privatising utilities. Certainly as we know, these privatised utilities have become a gravy train for the 'oligarchies' the author refers to. Now the thing is, do we in the UK have any intention to break up these oligarchies? I don't think so. Do ypu personally think the privatisation of water is a triumph of British progressive politics, which benefits the little people? Well that has been foisted on the whole of the EU by us. That said, some EU countries resist, and I believe that their collective experience will eventually mean there will be a consensus for changing some of the rules so that utilities are run more for the benefit of society as a whole than for shareholders. As I've several times pointed out, the French are amazed that we in the UK allow their State companies like EDF to take control of our strategic assets, but they are damned if they will allow German equivalents to take control of theirs. This article shows the pathetic tragedy of the Labour leave types. Politically there are many mainstream centre left politicians across Europe who share their misgivings about privatised utilities, but instead of working with them, the Little Englanders want to raise two fingers, and instead dream of taking power to implement Socialism in One Country. Twats. Are you with them, brother @stonemuse ?
Thanks for taking the time to read the articles and to respond. I was actually surprised to see two such articles in the same edition of the New Statesman.
I linked all the articles because elements of all three link with my two previous, rather long, posts which outline how I see it all panning out.
I have no sympathy for any political party in this country any more. I doubt I have ever seen, nor will ever see again, such a disastrous set of politicians across all parties. It is deplorable and an insult to all of us.
There is a way forward that I support which I previously outlined, but I know it is not one you support. Not that it matters because none of our ‘leaders’ are up to meeting your requirements or mine.
I never thought I would say this, but I wish Nick Clegg was in charge ... read his latest book and you will see why I say that.
His words are the only ones I have seen that make a realistic attempt to resolve this issue responsibly and ethically.
I am an optimistic person by nature, so ultimately I believe this will evolve successfully ... but that will be in spite of our political strata not because of it.
Comments
Is that actually 'Millwall's take on royal wedding'? or is it actually the take of some absolute f*cking idiots seeking to be as offensive as they can be in cyber world?
From now on I'll take the most extreme views posted on here and use those as the face and set in concrete views of Charlton Athletic.
Stay classy indeed
Also, I'd be very careful as the grammar and spelling police have been out in force lately. Stay safe.
Link is NSFW by the way.
Some seem to think it's the official line of the club, which is a shame considering the all encompassing, non-judgemental, inclusive, progressive outlook that is promoted on here.
Some plum of a Tory Brexiteer on Today earlier basically stating the Committee (that he sits on) can't be trusted with the info.
Never mind. You can get to Nurnberg by train on the excellent ICEs. And it won't send your travel expenses into orbit. A good way to see how Europe really works.
You should stick by me when venturing into the heart of Europe. I can save you or your company money, leaving you even more to spend on beer, while discussing the EU with your colleagues, and then writing up your findings for us afterwards.
Anything else I can help you with?
An article from the Financial Times, via the Irish Times, on why the argument that it can have no border controls won't work for the UK: https://irishtimes.com/opinion/talk-of-an-open-border-after-brexit-is-delusional-1.3307245.
And, from the Irish Times, the related views of a German MEP: https://irishtimes.com/business/economy/eu-parliament-will-seek-to-protect-single-market-in-brexit-talks-german-mep-says-1.3307448.
And, finally, an SNP view, from the Irish (but really Cork) Examiner: irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/tory-response-to-irish-position-on-brexit-based-on-out-dated-imperialistic-thinking-scottish-mp-816028.html.
Thank you for posting your latest set of interesting articles. I haven't had time to go through all of them in detail; they do though seem to me to have something in common, which is that, inevitably they view "the EU' through the prism of the island viewpoint. Living in the heart of the EU, I simply don't recognise what they describe through that prism.
Take briefly the Spectator piece (although why we should read anything from that hateful rag after its appalling attack on Prince Harry's fiancee, I dont know - and I am no royalist). The magazine fails to tell us who the author is, and what his credentials are, but it has a most patronising tone, portraying the EU as squabbling national politicians. Without Mutti to bang them into shape, the EU will fall apart, he avers. Well, it could. Plays well to a certain British audience, eh? Does it make you feel better, like a nice cup of tea and a crumpet on a cold winter afternoon? OK..now tell me, why is it more likely that the EU will "fall apart" than that the UK will "fall apart", and which is more likely to happen soon? And when it comes to the squabbling children which masquerade as politicians, are we really better equipped than the EU nations to tackle the threat? The dangers exist for both entities. It is xenophobic nonsense to suggest that the UK is equipped with superior adults who can better tackle the dangers. I think you know that.
Moving on to your article by one of the Labour Leave types. I was struck by this line
Globalisation has created oligarchies of financiers, investors and high-skilled professionals that dominate national politics. The EU expands their opportunities and its rules work in their interests.
"In their interests". Once again a little Englander portrayal of the EU as some kind of supra natural power of little green men. Not surprising from a group whose luminaries include Kate Hoey and Gisela Stuart. But what "rules" is he referring to? I struggled to think, but maybe he is thinking of the Single Market "rules" which the Commission sets for the purpose of creating market conditions. Here is the reality. These rules are the joint development of the EU national government representatives. They are subject to interpretation by national governments and can be changed by a majority of such governments. And guess which EU country was the driving force behind these rules? The UK. They were originally developed in the early 90s and the UK (still in the Thatcher era, even if she was physically gone) dominated the discussion about the wisdom of privatising utilities. Certainly as we know, these privatised utilities have become a gravy train for the 'oligarchies' the author refers to. Now the thing is, do we in the UK have any intention to break up these oligarchies? I don't think so. Do ypu personally think the privatisation of water is a triumph of British progressive politics, which benefits the little people? Well that has been foisted on the whole of the EU by us. That said, some EU countries resist, and I believe that their collective experience will eventually mean there will be a consensus for changing some of the rules so that utilities are run more for the benefit of society as a whole than for shareholders. As I've several times pointed out, the French are amazed that we in the UK allow their State companies like EDF to take control of our strategic assets, but they are damned if they will allow German equivalents to take control of theirs. This article shows the pathetic tragedy of the Labour leave types. Politically there are many mainstream centre left politicians across Europe who share their misgivings about privatised utilities, but instead of working with them, the Little Englanders want to raise two fingers, and instead dream of taking power to implement Socialism in One Country. Twats. Are you with them, brother @stonemuse ?
He said, "Ireland is an Island, it's time we stopped trying to cling on to the past and let it go"
I asked, "what about NI's previous contribution to UK taxes/infrastructure/military etc?"
He said " Nth. Ire. costs the UK a chunk, and it's time to let it go"
I didn't really have a response to that.
Any thoughts?
Do you really think the UK wants to 'cling on' to NI?
That is much more important to me than what people outside the UK think of us.
I feel liberated by the Brexit decision
This is a variation on a multiple-unaswered question I've asked you several times before, but let's have another go.
How does this feeling of 'liberation' manifest itself in your daily life? Liberation means the freedom to do things that you wanted to do but were prevented from doing so. Could you - finally - give me an idea of what these things are?
It's about as likely that there could be a clean break from Northern Ireland as there could be a "Clean Brexit" that retains all the UK's current trading advantages.
The problem for the UK is that it cannot simply wash its hands of Northern Ireland and walk away. If that was possible, it would have done it long ago.
The formation of Northern Ireland was the direct result of a fairly obvious threat on the part of a significant element of Irish Unionism (as it then was) to spark civil war.
Just as with the Dissident Republicans, the overall numbers of those Loyalists willing, at the moment, to engage in violence are probably fairly limited, but these sort of things have a habit of spiralling out of control fairly quickly.
Loyalists have a very conditional loyalty to the state, and I would not wish to take for granted any outcome, but would be surprised if they would accept such a proposal.
It may be worth pointing out that at least one poster (@cafcfan?) made very clear in advance of the Brexit referendum that Northern Ireland costs the UK an awful lot more than EU membership, without any of the financial benefits that are provided by EU membership - so that, on purely economic terms it makes far more sense for the UK to depart the island of Ireland than it does the EU.
I very much doubt that there is any way to avoid chaos in exiting Ireland, particularly if the UK Government determined that it wanted to break up the UK to meet any current Brexit timescales.
And, for what it's worth, I'm assuming that the decision-making and negotiations would not be being conducted by the current Brain's Trust (I certainly trust that they only have the one brain between them).
#gomoggy, #takingbackcontrol, #fauxdemocracy
Which by the way, being greedy and "finding a way" is as close to mutually exclusive as you could get.
Delusional.
"Time we stopped clinging on to the past".
"Let it go".
"It costs the UK a chunk, and it's time to let it go".
Pretty compelling set of reasons there. But, if you ask me, I think we'll miss the Falklands.
The tendency to 'kick the can down the road' rather than tackle problems head on is endemic throughout Europe. The EU is both emblematic of this approach but also is used by national politicians as an excuse for why they cannot act decively.
The refendun markex a decisive turn against this form of politics and offers the hope that a new approach can be found. Our politicians will not be able to blame the EU any more and will be more directly accountable.
I linked all the articles because elements of all three link with my two previous, rather long, posts which outline how I see it all panning out.
I have no sympathy for any political party in this country any more. I doubt I have ever seen, nor will ever see again, such a disastrous set of politicians across all parties. It is deplorable and an insult to all of us.
There is a way forward that I support which I previously outlined, but I know it is not one you support. Not that it matters because none of our ‘leaders’ are up to meeting your requirements or mine.
I never thought I would say this, but I wish Nick Clegg was in charge ... read his latest book and you will see why I say that.
His words are the only ones I have seen that make a realistic attempt to resolve this issue responsibly and ethically.
I am an optimistic person by nature, so ultimately I believe this will evolve successfully ... but that will be in spite of our political strata not because of it.