Standby for a big row - David Davis has written to DEXEEU committee admitting reports they're being given aren't complete and don't contain anything that might be commercially sensitive - so after all the fuss in the Commons, MPs aren't being given the full picture
I'm sure it's entirely coincidental the government have released the (redacted) Brexit impact papers today of all days. I mean they've had since 1st Nov to do so...
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country.
No they're not. No one is stupid enough to believe this.
Yes they are.
No, there are some people thick and paranoid enough to think they believe it but once they actually engage their brains for a second they would see it's complete shit.
I knew you would bite little fishy!
My ‘yes they are’ was in response to your statement ‘no one is stupid enough to believe this’.
I know. My point is people don't really believe half this shit that the alt-right invents to obfuscate why Brexit is going so poorly but it is more compelling to them than the truth - that Brexit and everyone promoting it is a complete and utter shower of shite.
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country. This is a very dangerous game and could backfire into violence if the brinkmanship continues.
Where does she point out the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy?
Violence between whom?
She is saying that Ireland should veto trade discussions unless the UK agrees to stay in the Customs Union and/or the single market-which means staying in the EU. Which we voted not to do.
And that's where your whole case falls down!
The ballot paper was about leaving the EU, not the SM and CU. Nobody in the two leave campaigns specified the type of Brexit and if they had they would have been lucky to secure 40%.
Furthermore people need to differentiate between the CU and SM, and an FTA. For an FTA requires a border solution.
There is no customs union between Norway and Sweden (the EU) so there is a border with lorries restricted to certain crossing points and full on customs.
Fox is being deliberately obtuse - if the UK rejects the CU and SM then there has to be a visible border. For sure that might vary depending upon the end state but the deal with the EU27 Is to answer the exam question.
"The dog ate my homework" is a fail. Result is a three month delay and much politicking.
And a number of businesses will announce relocation plans. They were going anyway! But they will blame the government and Brexit uncertainty.
Over the last 12 months, I've agreed with many of your observations about the causes of the vote... But we should be precise about what is happening right now.
We are in the third act of a spectacular pivotal transition in our country - Brexecution. Act I was the referendum and act II was Article 50 + the election.
We were never going to be able to leave and then secure the same deal, not even close.
Nobody voted to leave the Customs Union and Single Market.... perhaps the country will have that choice at the next election or...
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country. This is a very dangerous game and could backfire into violence if the brinkmanship continues.
Nay, nay, and thrice nay.
It's just not true.
Here's the thing, the EU have accepted the outcome of the EU referendum, no matter how much they may regret it.
But, even democracy does not happen in a vacuum. The democratic will of the UK (even if it was crystal clear what that is) extends to the limits of its jurisdiction and no further, and those seeking to implement it have to take into account the legally binding agreements that the UK has made.
Just because people vote to, for example, "Make America Great Again", that vote does not make the desire reality.
So, also, the UK Government's desire to both have cake and eat it does not miraculously make everything it wants happen.
The UK position is that it wants out of the EU, Single Market and Customs Union, and it can leave - but it cannot expect to retain everything as it is now if it does so.
The UK have proposed, at best, vague and aspirational soundbites (unlikely to meet WTO requirements) about the future of the border between the UK and EU in Ireland.
The EU negotiators are representing the interests of the EU27, because that's what they are supposed to do. And the EU has very firm notions about its external customs border, which is fair enough, as it controls access to its Single Market.
The outlook and interests of the EU27 are not those of the UK Government, but they have suggested a way of maintaining a status quo regarding the Irish border.
The only way to have the frictionless border that the Conservatives and DUP say they want is to have a formal system of enshrining ongoing regulatory equivalence (not the same as Liam Fox's idea that, just because on day one, the regulations are the same that an FTA can be arranged at the drop of the hat).
The UK says no to that for the UK as a whole, and also for Northern Ireland. It's not the EU's (including Ireland) job to design a workable Brexit that respects the circumstances in Northern Irish politics (some might say the DUP should be keen, but apparently not), but they are trying. In the end, however, no matter how much they want to avoid a customs border in Ireland, if that is what has to happen it will.
The only reason that there may be brinkmanship is because the UK has wasted time by failing to engage with the Article 50 process, including the sequencing, which is mot only about money. The timetable was set out in advance, it's not like there's any real surprise that there is limited time.
As for the potential for matters to backfire into violence, at least in Northern Ireland, this was precisely the argument of Remainers that was widely dismissed as fearmongering. Those that seek violence need very little encouragement, but Brexit seems to be providing it in spades. I can only speak for those I know, but political divisions are hardening here - the willingness of nationalists to see themselves as Northern Irish is diminishing and, if the language of the DUP is anything to go by, things aren't much better within Unionism.
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country.
No they're not. No one is stupid enough to believe this.
Yes they are.
No, there are some people thick and paranoid enough to think they believe it but once they actually engage their brains for a second they would see it's complete shit.
I knew you would bite little fishy!
My ‘yes they are’ was in response to your statement ‘no one is stupid enough to believe this’.
I know. My point is people don't really believe half this shit that the alt-right invents to obfuscate why Brexit is going so poorly but it is more compelling to them than the truth - that Brexit and everyone promoting it is a complete and utter shower of shite.
The whole 52% of the population is a shower of shite?. I just realised you must be 13 years old.
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country.
No they're not. No one is stupid enough to believe this.
Yes they are.
No, there are some people thick and paranoid enough to think they believe it but once they actually engage their brains for a second they would see it's complete shit.
I knew you would bite little fishy!
My ‘yes they are’ was in response to your statement ‘no one is stupid enough to believe this’.
I know. My point is people don't really believe half this shit that the alt-right invents to obfuscate why Brexit is going so poorly but it is more compelling to them than the truth - that Brexit and everyone promoting it is a complete and utter shower of shite.
The whole 52% of the population is a shower of shite?. I just realised you must be 13 years old.
I said those promoting it, not who voted for it. Learn to read.
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country. This is a very dangerous game and could backfire into violence if the brinkmanship continues.
Nay, nay, and thrice nay.
It's just not true.
Here's the thing, the EU have accepted the outcome of the EU referendum, no matter how much they may regret it.
But, even democracy does not happen in a vacuum. The democratic will of the UK (even if it was crystal clear what that us) extends to the limits of it's jurisdiction and no further, and those seeking to implement it have to take into account the legally binding agreements that the UK has made.
Just because people vote to, for example, "Make America Great Again", that vote does not make the desire reality.
So, also, the UK Government's desire to both have cake and eat it does not miraculously make everything it wants happen.
The UK position is that it wants out of the EU, Single Market and Customs Union, and it can leave - but it cannot expect to retain everything as it is now if it does so.
The UK have proposed, at best, vague and aspirational soundbites (unlikely to meet WTO requirements) about the future of the border between the UK and EU in Ireland.
The EU negotiators are representing the interests of the EU27, because that's what they are supposed to do. And the EU has very firm notions about its external customs border, which is fair enough, as it controls access to its Single Market.
The outlook and interests of the EU27 are not those of the UK Government, but they have suggested a way of maintaining a status quo regarding the Irish border.
The only way to have the frictionless border that the Conservatives and DUP say they want is to have a formal system of enshrining ongoing regulatory equivalence (not the same as Liam Fox's idea that, just because on day one, the regulations are the same that an FTA can be arranged at the drop of the hat).
The UK says no to that for the UK as a whole, and also for Northern Ireland. It's not the EU's (including Ireland) job to design a workable Brexit that respects the circumstances in Northern Irish politics (some might say the DUP should be keen, but apparently not), but they are trying. In the end, however, no matter how much they want to avoid a customs border in Ireland, if that is what has to happen it will.
The only reason that there may be brinkmanship is because the UK has wasted time by failing to engage with the Article 50 process, including the sequencing, which is mot only about money. The timetable was set out in advance, it's not like there's any real surprise that there is limited time.
As for the potential for matters to backfire into violence, at least in Northern Ireland, this was precisely the argument of Remainers that was widely dismissed as fearmongering. Those that seek violence need very little encouragement, but Brexit seems to be providing it in spades. I can only speak for those I know, but political divisions are hardening here - the willingness of nationalists to see themselves as Northern Irish is diminishing and, if the language of the DUP is anything to go by, things aren't much better within Unionism.
It was a mistake to agree on the sequencing-which they are regretting now. Once a trade deal is done a way will be found to minimise border controls. But that cannot be agreed in advance of a deal being agreed without agreeing in advance to a possible part of the deal. I am not surprised that attitudes are hardening because of this unnecessary posturing. It seems that in the Tory Party as well there are Remain MPs who resent the way this is being done by the EU.
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country.
No they're not. No one is stupid enough to believe this.
Yes they are.
No, there are some people thick and paranoid enough to think they believe it but once they actually engage their brains for a second they would see it's complete shit.
I knew you would bite little fishy!
My ‘yes they are’ was in response to your statement ‘no one is stupid enough to believe this’.
I know. My point is people don't really believe half this shit that the alt-right invents to obfuscate why Brexit is going so poorly but it is more compelling to them than the truth - that Brexit and everyone promoting it is a complete and utter shower of shite.
The whole 52% of the population is a shower of shite?. I just realised you must be 13 years old.
I said those promoting it, not who voted for it. Learn to read.
Surely by voting for it we did, by default, promote it?
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country. This is a very dangerous game and could backfire into violence if the brinkmanship continues.
Where does she point out the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy?
Violence between whom?
She is saying that Ireland should veto trade discussions unless the UK agrees to stay in the Customs Union and/or the single market-which means staying in the EU. Which we voted not to do.
A vote in the UK to leave the EU does not compel the EU27 to agree to the UK's preferred, or any, trade deal.
The UK voted to leave, that is all (if you believe it must be obeyed, come what may) the referendum can require of both UK politicians and the EU. Everything else is up for negotiation - but there is no guarantee of any deal being agreed - coming to a sufficiently mutually beneficial arrangement takes painstaking negotiation over time and goodwill.
The Irish position is that protecting the GFA really requires, at a minimum, the UK/Northern Ireland to remain in the Customs Union, because that allows for barrier free relations across the border.
The UK position is, on the other hand, mostly wishful thinking and pixie dust...
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country. This is a very dangerous game and could backfire into violence if the brinkmanship continues.
Where does she point out the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy?
Violence between whom?
She is saying that Ireland should veto trade discussions unless the UK agrees to stay in the Customs Union and/or the single market-which means staying in the EU. Which we voted not to do.
A vote in the UK to leave the EU does not compel the EU27 to agree to the UK's preferred, or any, trade deal.
The UK voted to leave, that is all (if you believe it must be obeyed, come what may) the referendum can require of both UK politicians and the EU. Everything else is up for negotiation - but there is no guarantee of any deal being agreed - coming to a sufficiently mutually beneficial arrangement takes painstaking negotiation over time and goodwill.
The Irish position is that protecting the GFA really requires, at a minimum, the UK/Northern Ireland to remain in the Customs Union, because that allows for barrier free relations across the border.
The UK position is, on the other hand, mostly wishful thinking and pixie dust...
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country.
No they're not. No one is stupid enough to believe this.
Yes they are.
No, there are some people thick and paranoid enough to think they believe it but once they actually engage their brains for a second they would see it's complete shit.
I knew you would bite little fishy!
My ‘yes they are’ was in response to your statement ‘no one is stupid enough to believe this’.
I know. My point is people don't really believe half this shit that the alt-right invents to obfuscate why Brexit is going so poorly but it is more compelling to them than the truth - that Brexit and everyone promoting it is a complete and utter shower of shite.
The whole 52% of the population is a shower of shite?. I just realised you must be 13 years old.
I said those promoting it, not who voted for it. Learn to read.
Chill folks. We are told not to have the brexit debate again, and that those who voted for brexit knew what they were voting for, all they have to do now is implement it. It is their call. Where will they start? How about what to do about the end of air travel as we know it today? Hey, you brexiters who knew what you were voting for, what happens with air travel? Can you tell us?
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country. This is a very dangerous game and could backfire into violence if the brinkmanship continues.
Where does she point out the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy?
Violence between whom?
She is saying that Ireland should veto trade discussions unless the UK agrees to stay in the Customs Union and/or the single market-which means staying in the EU. Which we voted not to do.
A vote in the UK to leave the EU does not compel the EU27 to agree to the UK's preferred, or any, trade deal.
The UK voted to leave, that is all (if you believe it must be obeyed, come what may) the referendum can require of both UK politicians and the EU. Everything else is up for negotiation - but there is no guarantee of any deal being agreed - coming to a sufficiently mutually beneficial arrangement takes painstaking negotiation over time and goodwill.
The Irish position is that protecting the GFA really requires, at a minimum, the UK/Northern Ireland to remain in the Customs Union, because that allows for barrier free relations across the border.
The UK position is, on the other hand, mostly wishful thinking and pixie dust...
The Irish can have that position of course, but insisting on it prior to a trade deal being done is not helping a 'beneficial arrangement'
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country. This is a very dangerous game and could backfire into violence if the brinkmanship continues.
Nay, nay, and thrice nay.
It's just not true.
Here's the thing, the EU have accepted the outcome of the EU referendum, no matter how much they may regret it.
But, even democracy does not happen in a vacuum. The democratic will of the UK (even if it was crystal clear what that us) extends to the limits of it's jurisdiction and no further, and those seeking to implement it have to take into account the legally binding agreements that the UK has made.
Just because people vote to, for example, "Make America Great Again", that vote does not make the desire reality.
So, also, the UK Government's desire to both have cake and eat it does not miraculously make everything it wants happen.
The UK position is that it wants out of the EU, Single Market and Customs Union, and it can leave - but it cannot expect to retain everything as it is now if it does so.
The UK have proposed, at best, vague and aspirational soundbites (unlikely to meet WTO requirements) about the future of the border between the UK and EU in Ireland.
The EU negotiators are representing the interests of the EU27, because that's what they are supposed to do. And the EU has very firm notions about its external customs border, which is fair enough, as it controls access to its Single Market.
The outlook and interests of the EU27 are not those of the UK Government, but they have suggested a way of maintaining a status quo regarding the Irish border.
The only way to have the frictionless border that the Conservatives and DUP say they want is to have a formal system of enshrining ongoing regulatory equivalence (not the same as Liam Fox's idea that, just because on day one, the regulations are the same that an FTA can be arranged at the drop of the hat).
The UK says no to that for the UK as a whole, and also for Northern Ireland. It's not the EU's (including Ireland) job to design a workable Brexit that respects the circumstances in Northern Irish politics (some might say the DUP should be keen, but apparently not), but they are trying. In the end, however, no matter how much they want to avoid a customs border in Ireland, if that is what has to happen it will.
The only reason that there may be brinkmanship is because the UK has wasted time by failing to engage with the Article 50 process, including the sequencing, which is mot only about money. The timetable was set out in advance, it's not like there's any real surprise that there is limited time.
As for the potential for matters to backfire into violence, at least in Northern Ireland, this was precisely the argument of Remainers that was widely dismissed as fearmongering. Those that seek violence need very little encouragement, but Brexit seems to be providing it in spades. I can only speak for those I know, but political divisions are hardening here - the willingness of nationalists to see themselves as Northern Irish is diminishing and, if the language of the DUP is anything to go by, things aren't much better within Unionism.
It was a mistake to agree on the sequencing-which they are regretting now. Once a trade deal is done a way will be found to minimise border controls. But that cannot be agreed in advance of a deal being agreed without agreeing in advance to a possible part of the deal. I am not surprised that attitudes are hardening because of this unnecessary posturing. It seems that in the Tory Party as well there are Remain MPs who resent the way this is being done by the EU.
'Once a trade deal is done a way will be found to minimise border controls'..go on, I'm all ears. Just to be helpful there are 400km of land border in Ireland, and at least 300 crossing points, so, do tell us about this way that will be found. Explain how the border would work if you are travelling from Gannons Cross to Clones on the N54/A3?
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country.
No they're not. No one is stupid enough to believe this.
Yes they are.
No, there are some people thick and paranoid enough to think they believe it but once they actually engage their brains for a second they would see it's complete shit.
I knew you would bite little fishy!
My ‘yes they are’ was in response to your statement ‘no one is stupid enough to believe this’.
I know. My point is people don't really believe half this shit that the alt-right invents to obfuscate why Brexit is going so poorly but it is more compelling to them than the truth - that Brexit and everyone promoting it is a complete and utter shower of shite.
The whole 52% of the population is a shower of shite?. I just realised you must be 13 years old.
I said those promoting it, not who voted for it. Learn to read.
Well I read ' Brexit and everyone promoting it'
You really are dense. No wonder Guido appeals to you.
Brexit, as in the UK leaving the EU, is demonstrably a shower of shit.
Those promoting it, as in Vote Leave and other anti-EU campaigns (currently under investigation for electoral fraud, very undemocratic), pro-Brexit politicians and pundits, the Russians undermining our democracy, UKIP and the far-right who use their time and resources trying to discredit the EU and Remainers, are a shower of shite. Most Leave voters don't count among these. In fact most Leave voters were conned by promises that simply can't be kept. Hence why support for leaving the Single Market is less than 10% and support for leaving the EU plummets every week.
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country. This is a very dangerous game and could backfire into violence if the brinkmanship continues.
Where does she point out the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy?
Violence between whom?
She is saying that Ireland should veto trade discussions unless the UK agrees to stay in the Customs Union and/or the single market-which means staying in the EU. Which we voted not to do.
A vote in the UK to leave the EU does not compel the EU27 to agree to the UK's preferred, or any, trade deal.
The UK voted to leave, that is all (if you believe it must be obeyed, come what may) the referendum can require of both UK politicians and the EU. Everything else is up for negotiation - but there is no guarantee of any deal being agreed - coming to a sufficiently mutually beneficial arrangement takes painstaking negotiation over time and goodwill.
The Irish position is that protecting the GFA really requires, at a minimum, the UK/Northern Ireland to remain in the Customs Union, because that allows for barrier free relations across the border.
The UK position is, on the other hand, mostly wishful thinking and pixie dust...
The Irish can have that position of course, but insisting on it prior to a trade deal being done is not helping a 'beneficial arrangement'
Neither is threatening to rip up the Good Friday Agreement like those promoting Brexit seem to support.
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country. This is a very dangerous game and could backfire into violence if the brinkmanship continues.
Nay, nay, and thrice nay.
It's just not true.
Here's the thing, the EU have accepted the outcome of the EU referendum, no matter how much they may regret it.
But, even democracy does not happen in a vacuum. The democratic will of the UK (even if it was crystal clear what that us) extends to the limits of it's jurisdiction and no further, and those seeking to implement it have to take into account the legally binding agreements that the UK has made.
Just because people vote to, for example, "Make America Great Again", that vote does not make the desire reality.
So, also, the UK Government's desire to both have cake and eat it does not miraculously make everything it wants happen.
The UK position is that it wants out of the EU, Single Market and Customs Union, and it can leave - but it cannot expect to retain everything as it is now if it does so.
The UK have proposed, at best, vague and aspirational soundbites (unlikely to meet WTO requirements) about the future of the border between the UK and EU in Ireland.
The EU negotiators are representing the interests of the EU27, because that's what they are supposed to do. And the EU has very firm notions about its external customs border, which is fair enough, as it controls access to its Single Market.
The outlook and interests of the EU27 are not those of the UK Government, but they have suggested a way of maintaining a status quo regarding the Irish border.
The only way to have the frictionless border that the Conservatives and DUP say they want is to have a formal system of enshrining ongoing regulatory equivalence (not the same as Liam Fox's idea that, just because on day one, the regulations are the same that an FTA can be arranged at the drop of the hat).
The UK says no to that for the UK as a whole, and also for Northern Ireland. It's not the EU's (including Ireland) job to design a workable Brexit that respects the circumstances in Northern Irish politics (some might say the DUP should be keen, but apparently not), but they are trying. In the end, however, no matter how much they want to avoid a customs border in Ireland, if that is what has to happen it will.
The only reason that there may be brinkmanship is because the UK has wasted time by failing to engage with the Article 50 process, including the sequencing, which is mot only about money. The timetable was set out in advance, it's not like there's any real surprise that there is limited time.
As for the potential for matters to backfire into violence, at least in Northern Ireland, this was precisely the argument of Remainers that was widely dismissed as fearmongering. Those that seek violence need very little encouragement, but Brexit seems to be providing it in spades. I can only speak for those I know, but political divisions are hardening here - the willingness of nationalists to see themselves as Northern Irish is diminishing and, if the language of the DUP is anything to go by, things aren't much better within Unionism.
It was a mistake to agree on the sequencing-which they are regretting now. Once a trade deal is done a way will be found to minimise border controls. But that cannot be agreed in advance of a deal being agreed without agreeing in advance to a possible part of the deal. I am not surprised that attitudes are hardening because of this unnecessary posturing. It seems that in the Tory Party as well there are Remain MPs who resent the way this is being done by the EU.
'Once a trade deal is done a way will be found to minimise border controls'..go on, I'm all ears. Just to be helpful there are 400km of land border in Ireland, and at least 300 crossing points, so, do tell us about this way that will be found. Explain how the border would work if you are travelling from Gannons Cross to Clones on the N54/A3?
Not my job,mate. Unlike you I am not a trade negotiator nor a customs or border export. But I do know that when it comes to trading and making money, a way will be found.
Standby for a big row - David Davis has written to DEXEEU committee admitting reports they're being given aren't complete and don't contain anything that might be commercially sensitive - so after all the fuss in the Commons, MPs aren't being given the full picture
I'm sure it's entirely coincidental the government have released the (redacted) Brexit impact papers today of all days. I mean they've had since 1st Nov to do so...
Disgraceful isn't it.
They redact the full truth from fellow MP's and release their version on the one day this month it was guaranteed not to be the main story in the media. Yet these people still find others prepared to accept their claim to be the defenders of democracy.
Chill folks. We are told not to have the brexit debate again, and that those who voted for brexit knew what they were voting for, all they have to do now is implement it. It is their call. Where will they start? How about what to do about the end of air travel as we know it today? Hey, you brexiters who knew what you were voting for, what happens with air travel? Can you tell us?
Yes off to Nuremburg Monday... Fly to Cologne then just up the road according to fiish/chizz.
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country. This is a very dangerous game and could backfire into violence if the brinkmanship continues.
Nay, nay, and thrice nay.
It's just not true.
Here's the thing, the EU have accepted the outcome of the EU referendum, no matter how much they may regret it.
But, even democracy does not happen in a vacuum. The democratic will of the UK (even if it was crystal clear what that us) extends to the limits of it's jurisdiction and no further, and those seeking to implement it have to take into account the legally binding agreements that the UK has made.
Just because people vote to, for example, "Make America Great Again", that vote does not make the desire reality.
So, also, the UK Government's desire to both have cake and eat it does not miraculously make everything it wants happen.
The UK position is that it wants out of the EU, Single Market and Customs Union, and it can leave - but it cannot expect to retain everything as it is now if it does so.
The UK have proposed, at best, vague and aspirational soundbites (unlikely to meet WTO requirements) about the future of the border between the UK and EU in Ireland.
The EU negotiators are representing the interests of the EU27, because that's what they are supposed to do. And the EU has very firm notions about its external customs border, which is fair enough, as it controls access to its Single Market.
The outlook and interests of the EU27 are not those of the UK Government, but they have suggested a way of maintaining a status quo regarding the Irish border.
The only way to have the frictionless border that the Conservatives and DUP say they want is to have a formal system of enshrining ongoing regulatory equivalence (not the same as Liam Fox's idea that, just because on day one, the regulations are the same that an FTA can be arranged at the drop of the hat).
The UK says no to that for the UK as a whole, and also for Northern Ireland. It's not the EU's (including Ireland) job to design a workable Brexit that respects the circumstances in Northern Irish politics (some might say the DUP should be keen, but apparently not), but they are trying. In the end, however, no matter how much they want to avoid a customs border in Ireland, if that is what has to happen it will.
The only reason that there may be brinkmanship is because the UK has wasted time by failing to engage with the Article 50 process, including the sequencing, which is mot only about money. The timetable was set out in advance, it's not like there's any real surprise that there is limited time.
As for the potential for matters to backfire into violence, at least in Northern Ireland, this was precisely the argument of Remainers that was widely dismissed as fearmongering. Those that seek violence need very little encouragement, but Brexit seems to be providing it in spades. I can only speak for those I know, but political divisions are hardening here - the willingness of nationalists to see themselves as Northern Irish is diminishing and, if the language of the DUP is anything to go by, things aren't much better within Unionism.
It was a mistake to agree on the sequencing-which they are regretting now. Once a trade deal is done a way will be found to minimise border controls. But that cannot be agreed in advance of a deal being agreed without agreeing in advance to a possible part of the deal. I am not surprised that attitudes are hardening because of this unnecessary posturing. It seems that in the Tory Party as well there are Remain MPs who resent the way this is being done by the EU.
I think you are mistaking what I am saying about attitudes hardening. It is not the EU that is the focus of most of the anger I see (remember, most here voted to Remain). The growth of the Northern Irish identity was seen as a symbol of the success of the political process, if it falls, what does that say about the underlying problems. I know plenty of moderate nationalists who are absolutely fuming, and determined to now define themselves only as Irish (at the same time, DUP triumphalism serves only to alienate many moderate Unionists, especially the young - and history shows they are most inclined to leave).
You are also making a fundamental mistake about the relationship of the Irish border and any future trade deal (which, with the best will in the world, if we are talking one comprehensive deal, is unlikely to be agreed in advance of 2025, unless a bog-standard off the shelf version is adopted).
The type of realistic potential solutions put forward, regarding the border in Ireland will, in effect, determine the trading relationship. Outside of the Single Market and Customs Union, there can be nothing agreed that is not in line with WTO standards regarding borders.
The "sufficient progress" of the three areas involved in the current exit talks is essential to determine what may possibly come next (the framework of any future deal) - which is why the EU wanted it this way (exit first, future later), and they are not regretting it.
No deal will be agreed without progress on how the UK is leaving the EU.
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country. This is a very dangerous game and could backfire into violence if the brinkmanship continues.
Where does she point out the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy?
Violence between whom?
She is saying that Ireland should veto trade discussions unless the UK agrees to stay in the Customs Union and/or the single market-which means staying in the EU. Which we voted not to do.
A vote in the UK to leave the EU does not compel the EU27 to agree to the UK's preferred, or any, trade deal.
The UK voted to leave, that is all (if you believe it must be obeyed, come what may) the referendum can require of both UK politicians and the EU. Everything else is up for negotiation - but there is no guarantee of any deal being agreed - coming to a sufficiently mutually beneficial arrangement takes painstaking negotiation over time and goodwill.
The Irish position is that protecting the GFA really requires, at a minimum, the UK/Northern Ireland to remain in the Customs Union, because that allows for barrier free relations across the border.
The UK position is, on the other hand, mostly wishful thinking and pixie dust...
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country. This is a very dangerous game and could backfire into violence if the brinkmanship continues.
Nay, nay, and thrice nay.
It's just not true.
Here's the thing, the EU have accepted the outcome of the EU referendum, no matter how much they may regret it.
But, even democracy does not happen in a vacuum. The democratic will of the UK (even if it was crystal clear what that us) extends to the limits of it's jurisdiction and no further, and those seeking to implement it have to take into account the legally binding agreements that the UK has made.
Just because people vote to, for example, "Make America Great Again", that vote does not make the desire reality.
So, also, the UK Government's desire to both have cake and eat it does not miraculously make everything it wants happen.
The UK position is that it wants out of the EU, Single Market and Customs Union, and it can leave - but it cannot expect to retain everything as it is now if it does so.
The UK have proposed, at best, vague and aspirational soundbites (unlikely to meet WTO requirements) about the future of the border between the UK and EU in Ireland.
The EU negotiators are representing the interests of the EU27, because that's what they are supposed to do. And the EU has very firm notions about its external customs border, which is fair enough, as it controls access to its Single Market.
The outlook and interests of the EU27 are not those of the UK Government, but they have suggested a way of maintaining a status quo regarding the Irish border.
The only way to have the frictionless border that the Conservatives and DUP say they want is to have a formal system of enshrining ongoing regulatory equivalence (not the same as Liam Fox's idea that, just because on day one, the regulations are the same that an FTA can be arranged at the drop of the hat).
The UK says no to that for the UK as a whole, and also for Northern Ireland. It's not the EU's (including Ireland) job to design a workable Brexit that respects the circumstances in Northern Irish politics (some might say the DUP should be keen, but apparently not), but they are trying. In the end, however, no matter how much they want to avoid a customs border in Ireland, if that is what has to happen it will.
The only reason that there may be brinkmanship is because the UK has wasted time by failing to engage with the Article 50 process, including the sequencing, which is mot only about money. The timetable was set out in advance, it's not like there's any real surprise that there is limited time.
As for the potential for matters to backfire into violence, at least in Northern Ireland, this was precisely the argument of Remainers that was widely dismissed as fearmongering. Those that seek violence need very little encouragement, but Brexit seems to be providing it in spades. I can only speak for those I know, but political divisions are hardening here - the willingness of nationalists to see themselves as Northern Irish is diminishing and, if the language of the DUP is anything to go by, things aren't much better within Unionism.
It was a mistake to agree on the sequencing-which they are regretting now. Once a trade deal is done a way will be found to minimise border controls. But that cannot be agreed in advance of a deal being agreed without agreeing in advance to a possible part of the deal. I am not surprised that attitudes are hardening because of this unnecessary posturing. It seems that in the Tory Party as well there are Remain MPs who resent the way this is being done by the EU.
'Once a trade deal is done a way will be found to minimise border controls'..go on, I'm all ears. Just to be helpful there are 400km of land border in Ireland, and at least 300 crossing points, so, do tell us about this way that will be found. Explain how the border would work if you are travelling from Gannons Cross to Clones on the N54/A3?
Not my job,mate. Unlike you I am not a trade negotiator nor a customs or border export. But I do know that when it comes to trading and making money, a way will be found.
Great response, i have a millionaire mate, ex army and formed his own technology company, he told me this week any businessman voting to stay in was in his words an effing idiot. His answer to why was that businessmen worth their salt are greedy, and they will find a way.. I know non millionaire businessmen here though will know better.
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country. This is a very dangerous game and could backfire into violence if the brinkmanship continues.
Nay, nay, and thrice nay.
It's just not true.
Here's the thing, the EU have accepted the outcome of the EU referendum, no matter how much they may regret it.
But, even democracy does not happen in a vacuum. The democratic will of the UK (even if it was crystal clear what that us) extends to the limits of it's jurisdiction and no further, and those seeking to implement it have to take into account the legally binding agreements that the UK has made.
Just because people vote to, for example, "Make America Great Again", that vote does not make the desire reality.
So, also, the UK Government's desire to both have cake and eat it does not miraculously make everything it wants happen.
The UK position is that it wants out of the EU, Single Market and Customs Union, and it can leave - but it cannot expect to retain everything as it is now if it does so.
The UK have proposed, at best, vague and aspirational soundbites (unlikely to meet WTO requirements) about the future of the border between the UK and EU in Ireland.
The EU negotiators are representing the interests of the EU27, because that's what they are supposed to do. And the EU has very firm notions about its external customs border, which is fair enough, as it controls access to its Single Market.
The outlook and interests of the EU27 are not those of the UK Government, but they have suggested a way of maintaining a status quo regarding the Irish border.
The only way to have the frictionless border that the Conservatives and DUP say they want is to have a formal system of enshrining ongoing regulatory equivalence (not the same as Liam Fox's idea that, just because on day one, the regulations are the same that an FTA can be arranged at the drop of the hat).
The UK says no to that for the UK as a whole, and also for Northern Ireland. It's not the EU's (including Ireland) job to design a workable Brexit that respects the circumstances in Northern Irish politics (some might say the DUP should be keen, but apparently not), but they are trying. In the end, however, no matter how much they want to avoid a customs border in Ireland, if that is what has to happen it will.
The only reason that there may be brinkmanship is because the UK has wasted time by failing to engage with the Article 50 process, including the sequencing, which is mot only about money. The timetable was set out in advance, it's not like there's any real surprise that there is limited time.
As for the potential for matters to backfire into violence, at least in Northern Ireland, this was precisely the argument of Remainers that was widely dismissed as fearmongering. Those that seek violence need very little encouragement, but Brexit seems to be providing it in spades. I can only speak for those I know, but political divisions are hardening here - the willingness of nationalists to see themselves as Northern Irish is diminishing and, if the language of the DUP is anything to go by, things aren't much better within Unionism.
It was a mistake to agree on the sequencing-which they are regretting now. Once a trade deal is done a way will be found to minimise border controls. But that cannot be agreed in advance of a deal being agreed without agreeing in advance to a possible part of the deal. I am not surprised that attitudes are hardening because of this unnecessary posturing. It seems that in the Tory Party as well there are Remain MPs who resent the way this is being done by the EU.
'Once a trade deal is done a way will be found to minimise border controls'..go on, I'm all ears. Just to be helpful there are 400km of land border in Ireland, and at least 300 crossing points, so, do tell us about this way that will be found. Explain how the border would work if you are travelling from Gannons Cross to Clones on the N54/A3?
Not my job,mate. Unlike you I am not a trade negotiator nor a customs or border export. But I do know that when it comes to trading and making money, a way will be found.
Great response, i have a millionaire mate, ex army and formed his own technology company, he told me this week any businessman voting to stay in was in his words an effing idiot. His answer to why was that businessmen worth their salt are greedy, and they will find a way.. I know non millionaire businessmen here though will know better.
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country. This is a very dangerous game and could backfire into violence if the brinkmanship continues.
Where does she point out the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy?
Violence between whom?
She is saying that Ireland should veto trade discussions unless the UK agrees to stay in the Customs Union and/or the single market-which means staying in the EU. Which we voted not to do.
A vote in the UK to leave the EU does not compel the EU27 to agree to the UK's preferred, or any, trade deal.
The UK voted to leave, that is all (if you believe it must be obeyed, come what may) the referendum can require of both UK politicians and the EU. Everything else is up for negotiation - but there is no guarantee of any deal being agreed - coming to a sufficiently mutually beneficial arrangement takes painstaking negotiation over time and goodwill.
The Irish position is that protecting the GFA really requires, at a minimum, the UK/Northern Ireland to remain in the Customs Union, because that allows for barrier free relations across the border.
The UK position is, on the other hand, mostly wishful thinking and pixie dust...
The Irish can have that position of course, but insisting on it prior to a trade deal being done is not helping a 'beneficial arrangement'
In a negotiation, it is up to both sides to come up with, in this case, reasonably detailed proposals.
The UK Government haven't, and a reasonable person might think that they might, what with it being them that is seeking to leave and yet, at the same time wishing to honour it's Treaty obligations. It would be unfair to cow shite to describe the UK proposals as a steaming pile of cow shite.
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country.
No they're not. No one is stupid enough to believe this.
Yes they are.
No, there are some people thick and paranoid enough to think they believe it but once they actually engage their brains for a second they would see it's complete shit.
I knew you would bite little fishy!
My ‘yes they are’ was in response to your statement ‘no one is stupid enough to believe this’.
I know. My point is people don't really believe half this shit that the alt-right invents to obfuscate why Brexit is going so poorly but it is more compelling to them than the truth - that Brexit and everyone promoting it is a complete and utter shower of shite.
The whole 52% of the population is a shower of shite?. I just realised you must be 13 years old.
I said those promoting it, not who voted for it. Learn to read.
Well I read ' Brexit and everyone promoting it'
You really are dense. No wonder Guido appeals to you.
Brexit, as in the UK leaving the EU, is demonstrably a shower of shit.
Those promoting it, as in Vote Leave and other anti-EU campaigns (currently under investigation for electoral fraud, very undemocratic), pro-Brexit politicians and pundits, the Russians undermining our democracy, UKIP and the far-right who use their time and resources trying to discredit the EU and Remainers, are a shower of shite. Most Leave voters don't count among these. In fact most Leave voters were conned by promises that simply can't be kept. Hence why support for leaving the Single Market is less than 10% and support for leaving the EU plummets every week.
So all Leavers are a shower of shite or stupid , gullible fools. Well I do not figure in your list of shite so I must be stupid. Keep it up,son, you are really winning me over.
She is quite right to point out that the EU is using Ireland to sabotage democracy in this country.
No they're not. No one is stupid enough to believe this.
Yes they are.
No, there are some people thick and paranoid enough to think they believe it but once they actually engage their brains for a second they would see it's complete shit.
I knew you would bite little fishy!
My ‘yes they are’ was in response to your statement ‘no one is stupid enough to believe this’.
I know. My point is people don't really believe half this shit that the alt-right invents to obfuscate why Brexit is going so poorly but it is more compelling to them than the truth - that Brexit and everyone promoting it is a complete and utter shower of shite.
The whole 52% of the population is a shower of shite?. I just realised you must be 13 years old.
I said those promoting it, not who voted for it. Learn to read.
Well I read ' Brexit and everyone promoting it'
You really are dense. No wonder Guido appeals to you.
Brexit, as in the UK leaving the EU, is demonstrably a shower of shit.
Those promoting it, as in Vote Leave and other anti-EU campaigns (currently under investigation for electoral fraud, very undemocratic), pro-Brexit politicians and pundits, the Russians undermining our democracy, UKIP and the far-right who use their time and resources trying to discredit the EU and Remainers, are a shower of shite. Most Leave voters don't count among these. In fact most Leave voters were conned by promises that simply can't be kept. Hence why support for leaving the Single Market is less than 10% and support for leaving the EU plummets every week.
So all Leavers are a shower of shite or stupid , gullible fools. Well I do not figure in your list of shite so I must be stupid. Keep it up,son, you are really winning me over.
Considering most of the stuff you post here as your beliefs are mainly lies concocted by hard-right trolls and fake news sources, I make you right there on the gullible point.
Comments
Disgraceful isn't it.
The ballot paper was about leaving the EU, not the SM and CU. Nobody in the two leave campaigns specified the type of Brexit and if they had they would have been lucky to secure 40%.
Furthermore people need to differentiate between the CU and SM, and an FTA. For an FTA requires a border solution.
There is no customs union between Norway and Sweden (the EU) so there is a border with lorries restricted to certain crossing points and full on customs.
Fox is being deliberately obtuse - if the UK rejects the CU and SM then there has to be a visible border. For sure that might vary depending upon the end state but the deal with the EU27 Is to answer the exam question.
"The dog ate my homework" is a fail. Result is a three month delay and much politicking.
And a number of businesses will announce relocation plans. They were going anyway! But they will blame the government and Brexit uncertainty.
Over the last 12 months, I've agreed with many of your observations about the causes of the vote... But we should be precise about what is happening right now.
We are in the third act of a spectacular pivotal transition in our country - Brexecution. Act I was the referendum and act II was Article 50 + the election.
We were never going to be able to leave and then secure the same deal, not even close.
Nobody voted to leave the Customs Union and Single Market.... perhaps the country will have that choice at the next election or...
It's just not true.
Here's the thing, the EU have accepted the outcome of the EU referendum, no matter how much they may regret it.
But, even democracy does not happen in a vacuum. The democratic will of the UK (even if it was crystal clear what that is) extends to the limits of its jurisdiction and no further, and those seeking to implement it have to take into account the legally binding agreements that the UK has made.
Just because people vote to, for example, "Make America Great Again", that vote does not make the desire reality.
So, also, the UK Government's desire to both have cake and eat it does not miraculously make everything it wants happen.
The UK position is that it wants out of the EU, Single Market and Customs Union, and it can leave - but it cannot expect to retain everything as it is now if it does so.
The UK have proposed, at best, vague and aspirational soundbites (unlikely to meet WTO requirements) about the future of the border between the UK and EU in Ireland.
The EU negotiators are representing the interests of the EU27, because that's what they are supposed to do. And the EU has very firm notions about its external customs border, which is fair enough, as it controls access to its Single Market.
The outlook and interests of the EU27 are not those of the UK Government, but they have suggested a way of maintaining a status quo regarding the Irish border.
The only way to have the frictionless border that the Conservatives and DUP say they want is to have a formal system of enshrining ongoing regulatory equivalence (not the same as Liam Fox's idea that, just because on day one, the regulations are the same that an FTA can be arranged at the drop of the hat).
The UK says no to that for the UK as a whole, and also for Northern Ireland. It's not the EU's (including Ireland) job to design a workable Brexit that respects the circumstances in Northern Irish politics (some might say the DUP should be keen, but apparently not), but they are trying. In the end, however, no matter how much they want to avoid a customs border in Ireland, if that is what has to happen it will.
The only reason that there may be brinkmanship is because the UK has wasted time by failing to engage with the Article 50 process, including the sequencing, which is mot only about money. The timetable was set out in advance, it's not like there's any real surprise that there is limited time.
As for the potential for matters to backfire into violence, at least in Northern Ireland, this was precisely the argument of Remainers that was widely dismissed as fearmongering. Those that seek violence need very little encouragement, but Brexit seems to be providing it in spades. I can only speak for those I know, but political divisions are hardening here - the willingness of nationalists to see themselves as Northern Irish is diminishing and, if the language of the DUP is anything to go by, things aren't much better within Unionism.
Once a trade deal is done a way will be found to minimise border controls. But that cannot be agreed in advance of a deal being agreed without agreeing in advance to a possible part of the deal.
I am not surprised that attitudes are hardening because of this unnecessary posturing. It seems that in the Tory Party as well there are Remain MPs who resent the way this is being done by the EU.
The UK voted to leave, that is all (if you believe it must be obeyed, come what may) the referendum can require of both UK politicians and the EU. Everything else is up for negotiation - but there is no guarantee of any deal being agreed - coming to a sufficiently mutually beneficial arrangement takes painstaking negotiation over time and goodwill.
The Irish position is that protecting the GFA really requires, at a minimum, the UK/Northern Ireland to remain in the Customs Union, because that allows for barrier free relations across the border.
The UK position is, on the other hand, mostly wishful thinking and pixie dust...
Where will they start?
How about what to do about the end of air travel as we know it today? Hey, you brexiters who knew what you were voting for, what happens with air travel? Can you tell us?
'Once a trade deal is done a way will be found to minimise border controls'..go on, I'm all ears.
Just to be helpful there are 400km of land border in Ireland, and at least 300 crossing points, so, do tell us about this way that will be found.
Explain how the border would work if you are travelling from Gannons Cross to Clones on the N54/A3?
Brexit, as in the UK leaving the EU, is demonstrably a shower of shit.
Those promoting it, as in Vote Leave and other anti-EU campaigns (currently under investigation for electoral fraud, very undemocratic), pro-Brexit politicians and pundits, the Russians undermining our democracy, UKIP and the far-right who use their time and resources trying to discredit the EU and Remainers, are a shower of shite. Most Leave voters don't count among these. In fact most Leave voters were conned by promises that simply can't be kept. Hence why support for leaving the Single Market is less than 10% and support for leaving the EU plummets every week.
Disgraceful isn't it.
They redact the full truth from fellow MP's and release their version on the one day this month it was guaranteed not to be the main story in the media. Yet these people still find others prepared to accept their claim to be the defenders of democracy.
You are also making a fundamental mistake about the relationship of the Irish border and any future trade deal (which, with the best will in the world, if we are talking one comprehensive deal, is unlikely to be agreed in advance of 2025, unless a bog-standard off the shelf version is adopted).
The type of realistic potential solutions put forward, regarding the border in Ireland will, in effect, determine the trading relationship. Outside of the Single Market and Customs Union, there can be nothing agreed that is not in line with WTO standards regarding borders.
The "sufficient progress" of the three areas involved in the current exit talks is essential to determine what may possibly come next (the framework of any future deal) - which is why the EU wanted it this way (exit first, future later), and they are not regretting it.
No deal will be agreed without progress on how the UK is leaving the EU.
The UK Government haven't, and a reasonable person might think that they might, what with it being them that is seeking to leave and yet, at the same time wishing to honour it's Treaty obligations. It would be unfair to cow shite to describe the UK proposals as a steaming pile of cow shite.