@NornIrishAddick"Collectively, also, they will not wish to undermine their external borders." Thought control of borders was anathema to Remainers. The EU is however happy to undermine the internal border between the Republic and the UK as a tactic to block discussion on trade.
The implication is that if the border question is not solved to the satisfaction of the EU (Ireland firmly tying it's banner to the EU, impotent to hold an independent and overriding view on what is "sufficient progress") there will be no deal on trade, and as far as the border question is concerned the EU washes its hands of the problem and leaves Ireland and the UK to its own devices. Ireland would be between a rock and a hard place. Ireland will have to choose between - a workable solution that's in conflict with the EU's rules on customs controls - or the peace and security of the island of Ireland. The UK does not have a problem with an open border on the Island and flexible customs controls, only Remainers suggest the Brexit vote means a hard border is inevitable.
The problem is therefore not one of finding a solution that suits Ireland and the UK, it's one that does not undermine the protectionist customs regulations of the EU. The shrill noises from the Irish premier about the lack of progress disguise the real issue, the prospect of him having to make a choice between the EU and the peace of the Island.
Maintaining the peace of Europe is the cornerstone of EU ideology we are told - except it can be put in jeopardy and used as a bargaining chip if there is a challenge to the political ambition of the EU institution.
Brexit may have precipitated a problem, the EU's ambitions are the barrier to a solution.
Dips me old mucker, I bet you're surprised that I want to respond to you on the Irish border issue
I think you have sincerely held beliefs, and you are wise enough to realise that because we disagree it doesn't make either of us automatic dickheads. Indeed I welcome your contributions, especially as you often express frustration about being outnumbered and frustrated by others on this thread.
One of the themes that run through the brexit thread is one about the financial implications of it all, the other is about the voracity of research and evidence. However another theme to be respected is that people have desires and expectations and opinions, and will interpret a lot of stuff to simply back up how they feel and what they want.
With respect I think your take on the stance of the EU on this question is a valid expression of your opinion, but whether it is the actual truth is a lot more complex.
Lets take what you say about the control of borders being an anathema to remainers, in my case it is true. There was a spaceman on breakfast telly the other day who said that when looking at the planet from the space station, he could see the pollution in East China and India, but couldn't see the borders, I think a bit like that, but all remainers are not like me.
However I focus on the Irish border in particular because I see it as an expression of the whole problem of brexit generally, as you seem to do by saying the the EU are using the border issue, not in a sincere way, but as a bargaining tool for some nefarious objective.
I agree with what you said that to some extent little old Ireland is a victim of greater forces, brexit and the wider EU, and is indeed thrust into the space between the rock and the hard place against their will. However this bit you wrote is something I disagree with:
'The UK does not have a problem with an open border on the Island and flexible customs controls, only Remainers suggest the Brexit vote means a hard border is inevitable.'
The vote for brexit suggests to me that the UK does have a problem with an open border, on the island and elsewhere. We are regularly told that people voted brexit to 'take back control' including of borders, and even what you describe as 'flexible customs controls' is what I would call a hard border, however user friendly and smiling such controls are. It will be different (if control is taken back), and not as uncontrolled as travelling from London to Cardiff as it were.
Would you like to suggest what those 'flexible controls' would be like, for goods and people, in practical terms?
You move on to describe the shrill noises from the Irish premier, and suggest he has to choose between peace, and what I think you mean some kind of bespoke arrangement on the island. If you could communicate yours (or anybody's) vision of such a bespoke arrangement to the Irish leader maybe he will be less 'shrill', but he has been thrust into this situation unwillingly by the referendum result from a foreign power. Leo Varadkar is exposed to a situation where he has to satisfy the wishes of Ireland, the wishes of the EU, the Good Friday Agreement and also it seems he has to satisfy the wishes of the brexit voters of a foreign country by making it all happen to everybody's satisfaction.
In the context of what I have written, and you can maintain the EU is being manipulative regarding the Irish issue for malevolent ends if you like, there have actually been no practical and workable solutions suggested by the UK to sort it all out, and in my view Leo Varadker was perfectly in order to ask brexiters and the UK if anybody had thought it all through.
The irony is that one of the UK leading(sic) newspapers answers by telling him to grow up and shut his gob.
If there can be a workable agreed negotiated solution to this mess then wonderful, all I say is you and other brexiters, and the brexit lobby of the UK, you ought to make the first move and come up with the first tranche of suggestions. To say no suggestions can be put forward until the nature of trade is established is a smoke screen, it means nothing, it is a place to hide for those who have no ideas.
@NornIrishAddick"Collectively, also, they will not wish to undermine their external borders." Thought control of borders was anathema to Remainers. The EU is however happy to undermine the internal border between the Republic and the UK as a tactic to block discussion on trade.
The implication is that if the border question is not solved to the satisfaction of the EU (Ireland firmly tying it's banner to the EU, impotent to hold an independent and overriding view on what is "sufficient progress") there will be no deal on trade, and as far as the border question is concerned the EU washes its hands of the problem and leaves Ireland and the UK to its own devices. Ireland would be between a rock and a hard place. Ireland will have to choose between - a workable solution that's in conflict with the EU's rules on customs controls - or the peace and security of the island of Ireland. The UK does not have a problem with an open border on the Island and flexible customs controls, only Remainers suggest the Brexit vote means a hard border is inevitable.
The problem is therefore not one of finding a solution that suits Ireland and the UK, it's one that does not undermine the protectionist customs regulations of the EU. The shrill noises from the Irish premier about the lack of progress disguise the real issue, the prospect of him having to make a choice between the EU and the peace of the Island.
Maintaining the peace of Europe is the cornerstone of EU ideology we are told - except it can be put in jeopardy and used as a bargaining chip if there is a challenge to the political ambition of the EU institution.
Brexit may have precipitated a problem, the EU's ambitions are the barrier to a solution.
Apologies, @Dippenhall, I have been away from both computer and phone reception for most of today, otherwise I would have never let so much time elapse without some form of (hopefully reasoned) response.
However, I'm not sure that such a thing is possible.
Mostly because I'm afraid that this is probably the only post of yours that I have read, over the course of the whole Brexit "adventure" to date, with which I am unable to find any merit.
I know that others have made some of the points that I would have raised, so I apologise also if I go over some old ground again.
I remember, some time in the dim and distant past of 2016, when, in discussions over Ireland, we discussed the Irish border and you felt there would be a "fudge" solution, whilst I was less sanguine. I remain to be convinced that such an approach is likely to succeed or even possible.
As a Remainer, I am confident that EU member states have the control over their borders that they desire. Borders are not anathema to me, nor is the idea that, for EU member states, shared economic and political interests can allow for a reduction of that which divides the nation states, including a pooling of border controls.
Within the EU, there is (in customs terms) control of the external borders of the Single Market. Many EU member states have agreed to remove barriers for their citizens within the Schengen zone (which mirrors precisely the experience at the moment of anyone crossing the land border in Ireland), but this does not mean that there can be no border controls - as anyone having seen the security checks of recent years can attest.
As others have mentioned the border in Ireland is not an internal border, unless you are discussing in customs terms within the EU/Single Market. The only ones undermining this Single Market internal border are those seeking to withdraw the UK from the Single Market/Customs Union. The EU have made the border question, in no small part because of the Irish Government's insistence, one of the three areas regarding the negotiation process for an agreed exit from the EU that must achieve enough momentum to allow for other elements of the talks to progress.
I really don't understand why people feel that it is the big, bad EU that is trying to twist Ireland's arm in this. Trust me, Ireland is more than capable of holding an independent view of what would signify "sufficient progress", because it is precisely this sort of independent view that will determine whether Ireland agrees that the UK have put forward realistic, concrete proposals for how the UK sees the border operating without restriction.
The rules on customs controls are not those of the EU, but the WTO. Neither the UK, unless it wishes to allow completely free access to any third party states (no tariff nor any non tariff barriers), nor the EU will want to have an open and unmanaged external customs border. Yet the UK Government is effectively stating that this is its solution to social, economic, political and security concerns in Ireland. There is no way to have the sort of border arrangements that the UK Government says that it wants without the UK (or Northern Ireland) being in the Customs Union. If there have to be border controls in Ireland, the only ones who are responsible for that will be the UK Government (representing the will of the people, as expressed in the referendum, which I am now told was an overwhelming popular vote to leave the EU, Single Market and Customs Union - it's obvious that a pitiful few ballot papers were printed as the HMG inkjet was running low, so some of us didn't see all the words).
Nothing that has been put forward on the UK side of the border element of the negotiations has risen above platitudes and wishful thinking. This may be perfectly okay in an election, or even a referendum, campaign, but it just doesn't wash for any kind of intensive legalistic international treaty negotiation.
To be honest, the EU and the Irish Government are doing more to represent the wishes of voters in Northern Ireland than are the UK Government or the DUP. Michel Barnier has been intimately involved with Northern Ireland and the outworkings of the peace process in his career, and has been utterly consistent over the course of the talks to date. Arlene Foster, on the other hand, has been making clear that her decision to enter politics was not a great loss for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
It is the EU and the Irish Government that has attempted to put forward possible solutions that would respect the outcome of the UK vote to leave the EU and, at the same time, prevent the possibility of a return to more political violence in Northern Ireland because of a change to the border. But the UK Government, and its junior partners in the Conservative Party, have rejected such a solution out of hand.
You won't want to hear me say this, but I worry that the UK Government (and the media, to be fair) misunderstand utterly the negotiations in which they are engaged. I would even go so far as to suggest that they've been delusional.
The EU has been seeking "sufficient progress" in three areas, before moving on to Phase 2, to look at the future relationship. The UK Government, on the other hand, has decided (as it its right) to announce that it will exit the Single Market and Customs Union (which as, the not shrill, Leo Varadkar has pointed out, is, if anything, a Phase 2 discussion) and has also decided, heavily influenced by Jessie J's "Price Tag", that the "sufficient progress" in all three areas boils down simply to the money, money, money.
We are witnessing, at the moment, the dawning realisation on the part of the UK Government that the EU's approach to the negotiations is to do exactly what it says on the tin. The process has been agreed, scheduled and structured, and the EU are following that process. In the same way, the decision has been made that the UK will leave both the Single Market and the Customs Union, this decision means that the process for any trade negotiations will also follow a set path - leading to a CETA-style FTA or no deal.
@NornIrishAddick"Collectively, also, they will not wish to undermine their external borders." Thought control of borders was anathema to Remainers. The EU is however happy to undermine the internal border between the Republic and the UK as a tactic to block discussion on trade.
The implication is that if the border question is not solved to the satisfaction of the EU (Ireland firmly tying it's banner to the EU, impotent to hold an independent and overriding view on what is "sufficient progress") there will be no deal on trade, and as far as the border question is concerned the EU washes its hands of the problem and leaves Ireland and the UK to its own devices. Ireland would be between a rock and a hard place. Ireland will have to choose between - a workable solution that's in conflict with the EU's rules on customs controls - or the peace and security of the island of Ireland. The UK does not have a problem with an open border on the Island and flexible customs controls, only Remainers suggest the Brexit vote means a hard border is inevitable.
The problem is therefore not one of finding a solution that suits Ireland and the UK, it's one that does not undermine the protectionist customs regulations of the EU. The shrill noises from the Irish premier about the lack of progress disguise the real issue, the prospect of him having to make a choice between the EU and the peace of the Island.
Maintaining the peace of Europe is the cornerstone of EU ideology we are told - except it can be put in jeopardy and used as a bargaining chip if there is a challenge to the political ambition of the EU institution.
Brexit may have precipitated a problem, the EU's ambitions are the barrier to a solution.
I think you should stick to trying to make the economic case for Brexit. This post is so clueless and ignorant that I am wondering if Chippy has stolen your login!
Every single day that passes more and more evidence is amassed from every possible source both domestic and overseas that the U.K. is heading for the rocks, yet still the response to the serious issues posed is pathetic.
Depends where you source your information and who you believe. Nobody here heard of Stephanie Flanders till her name was posted here yesterday, yes most of you googled her name and now know all about her. You may kid each other but you don't kid me. The response is pathetic you are right,. That's why its now 80 pages and still going zzzzzzzz.
I doubt anyone other than you needed to Google who Stephanie Flanders is. And you refuse to inform yourself for completely insane reasons. Instead you just listen to the hard-right Daily Mail reject pundits on LBC and regurgitate their opinions on here. That's even more pathetic than using a search engine.
I don't know how many more times you need to be told, I don't read any tory papers (in fact I suspect you hold the record for posting most of its bollocks on here, (but that does figure). Seeing as you are so fascinated by me, I read the independent. I am certainly not on the right of politics more to the left if anything.
Regarding LBC, with the exception of one little weasel ('O' brien), all the other presenters are fair and reasonable and get people on the show who give a balanced view, even Farage who will take calls from people who ring up and have a go at him.
You won't change my view regarding Flanders, never heard of her and neither had some of you..
Whose she.... Its funny as on lbc last week a professor of economics said quite the opposite.
Also on Ian dale show last week when talking to an irish minister currently working in their prime ministers government, agreed that ireland exported 50% of its agriculture to the uk.. And 60-70% of its other goods. This came about as their jumped up litle pm was going to veto against us in the up and coming meetings.
Then comes on this Doctor of irish EU economics and said they export 13% to the uk for agricultural and more to the USA...
The formers figures were backed up by the independent prior to the brexit vote, who got rheir figures from errr the irish government.
The figure for 60-70% of Irish exported goods going to the UK would, I might suggest, include goods in transit. While the impact on the Irish economy is more significant for agricultural products, especially beef and milk, the UK is nowhere near as important to the Irish economy as it once was (a far greater proportion of Irish business relies on the rest of the EU).
Jumped up or otherwise, the Taoiseach is doing his best to represent Irish interests, even if that means voting against entering into future relationship discussions. He seems, at the moment, to be doing a better job of gaining necessary support from the EU than his counterpart.
I dont really care about % s on either side of the camp.. Or twitter comments by pratts who dont matter and who have not got the foggiest. My point we can sit all day and post ridicculous links by people no-ones heard off to back their narrow view... By the way where is link man, is he on holiday.
If you're referring to Stephanie Flanders as being a pratt no one's heard of who hasn't got a clue you really aren't doing yourself any favours. But I expect you've Googled her for yourself by now.
I do not google anything... I do not need too... Sadly most of the people here do.
Every single day that passes more and more evidence is amassed from every possible source both domestic and overseas that the U.K. is heading for the rocks, yet still the response to the serious issues posed is pathetic.
Depends where you source your information and who you believe. Nobody here heard of Stephanie Flanders till her name was posted here yesterday, yes most of you googled her name and now know all about her. You may kid each other but you don't kid me. The response is pathetic you are right,. That's why its now 80 pages and still going zzzzzzzz.
I doubt anyone other than you needed to Google who Stephanie Flanders is. And you refuse to inform yourself for completely insane reasons. Instead you just listen to the hard-right Daily Mail reject pundits on LBC and regurgitate their opinions on here. That's even more pathetic than using a search engine.
I don't know how many more times you need to be told, I don't read any tory papers (in fact I suspect you hold the record for posting most of its bollocks on here, (but that does figure). Seeing as you are so fascinated by me, I read the independent. I am certainly not on the right of politics more to the left if anything.
Regarding LBC, with the exception of one little weasel ('O' brien), all the other presenters are fair and reasonable and get people on the show who give a balanced view, even Farage who will take calls from people who ring up and have a go at him.
You won't change my view regarding Flanders, never heard of her and neither had some of you..
Try learning to read Mr I have a PhD. I didn't say you read the Daily Mail, I was referring to the "fair and reasonable" pundits you constantly fawn constantly supporting hard-right/far-right positions. By the way I guess you weren't listening earlier this week when JOB had a few callers on arguing against him.
I doubt I've posted anything from the Mail here. Another lie from you. Pack it in. Just because you've never heard of Flanders doesn't mean no one else has. Maybe educate yourself instead of posting the same nonsense on here over and over again. Getting embarrassing for a so-called PhD holding manager with an Irish passport who thinks Cologne is next to Nuremberg and thinks Farage and Ferrari are fair and balanced
Every single day that passes more and more evidence is amassed from every possible source both domestic and overseas that the U.K. is heading for the rocks, yet still the response to the serious issues posed is pathetic.
Depends where you source your information and who you believe. Nobody here heard of Stephanie Flanders till her name was posted here yesterday, yes most of you googled her name and now know all about her. You may kid each other but you don't kid me. The response is pathetic you are right,. That's why its now 80 pages and still going zzzzzzzz.
I doubt anyone other than you needed to Google who Stephanie Flanders is. And you refuse to inform yourself for completely insane reasons. Instead you just listen to the hard-right Daily Mail reject pundits on LBC and regurgitate their opinions on here. That's even more pathetic than using a search engine.
I don't know how many more times you need to be told, I don't read any tory papers (in fact I suspect you hold the record for posting most of its bollocks on here, (but that does figure). Seeing as you are so fascinated by me, I read the independent. I am certainly not on the right of politics more to the left if anything.
Regarding LBC, with the exception of one little weasel ('O' brien), all the other presenters are fair and reasonable and get people on the show who give a balanced view, even Farage who will take calls from people who ring up and have a go at him.
You won't change my view regarding Flanders, never heard of her and neither had some of you..
Try learning to read Mr I have a PhD. I didn't say you read the Daily Mail, I was referring to the "fair and reasonable" pundits you constantly fawn constantly supporting hard-right/far-right positions. By the way I guess you weren't listening earlier this week when JOB had a few callers on arguing against him.
I doubt I've posted anything from the Mail here. Another lie from you. Pack it in. Just because you've never heard of Flanders doesn't mean no one else has. Maybe educate yourself instead of posting the same nonsense on here over and over again. Getting embarrassing for a so-called PhD holding manager with an Irish passport who thinks Cologne is next to Nuremberg and thinks Farage and Ferrari are fair and balanced
No Mr try reading, i don't listen to JOB, as he is a bully. Anyone who supports him must think bullying is ok. I stopped listening last year when he took the piss out of fisherman from Grimsby who wanted their livlihoood back. Disgusting comments from a man who is supposed to stand up for the british worker. I dont think Ferrari/fogerty/Dale/Collins/Farage lap up to the Daily Mail. So stop lying. Pack it in.
Every single day that passes more and more evidence is amassed from every possible source both domestic and overseas that the U.K. is heading for the rocks, yet still the response to the serious issues posed is pathetic.
Depends where you source your information and who you believe. Nobody here heard of Stephanie Flanders till her name was posted here yesterday, yes most of you googled her name and now know all about her. You may kid each other but you don't kid me. The response is pathetic you are right,. That's why its now 80 pages and still going zzzzzzzz.
I doubt anyone other than you needed to Google who Stephanie Flanders is. And you refuse to inform yourself for completely insane reasons. Instead you just listen to the hard-right Daily Mail reject pundits on LBC and regurgitate their opinions on here. That's even more pathetic than using a search engine.
I don't know how many more times you need to be told, I don't read any tory papers (in fact I suspect you hold the record for posting most of its bollocks on here, (but that does figure). Seeing as you are so fascinated by me, I read the independent. I am certainly not on the right of politics more to the left if anything.
Regarding LBC, with the exception of one little weasel ('O' brien), all the other presenters are fair and reasonable and get people on the show who give a balanced view, even Farage who will take calls from people who ring up and have a go at him.
You won't change my view regarding Flanders, never heard of her and neither had some of you..
Try learning to read Mr I have a PhD. I didn't say you read the Daily Mail, I was referring to the "fair and reasonable" pundits you constantly fawn constantly supporting hard-right/far-right positions. By the way I guess you weren't listening earlier this week when JOB had a few callers on arguing against him.
I doubt I've posted anything from the Mail here. Another lie from you. Pack it in. Just because you've never heard of Flanders doesn't mean no one else has. Maybe educate yourself instead of posting the same nonsense on here over and over again. Getting embarrassing for a so-called PhD holding manager with an Irish passport who thinks Cologne is next to Nuremberg and thinks Farage and Ferrari are fair and balanced
No Mr try reading, i don't listen to JOB, as he is a bully. Anyone who supports him must think bullying is ok. I stopped listening last year when he took the piss out of fisherman from Grimsby who wanted their livlihoood back. Disgusting comments from a man who is supposed to stand up for the british worker. I dont think Ferrari/fogerty/Dale/Collins/Farage lap up to the Daily Mail. So stop lying. Pack it in.
Ah Grimsby, the place that voted to leave the EU but then...
Every single day that passes more and more evidence is amassed from every possible source both domestic and overseas that the U.K. is heading for the rocks, yet still the response to the serious issues posed is pathetic.
Depends where you source your information and who you believe. Nobody here heard of Stephanie Flanders till her name was posted here yesterday, yes most of you googled her name and now know all about her. You may kid each other but you don't kid me. The response is pathetic you are right,. That's why its now 80 pages and still going zzzzzzzz.
I doubt anyone other than you needed to Google who Stephanie Flanders is. And you refuse to inform yourself for completely insane reasons. Instead you just listen to the hard-right Daily Mail reject pundits on LBC and regurgitate their opinions on here. That's even more pathetic than using a search engine.
I don't know how many more times you need to be told, I don't read any tory papers (in fact I suspect you hold the record for posting most of its bollocks on here, (but that does figure). Seeing as you are so fascinated by me, I read the independent. I am certainly not on the right of politics more to the left if anything.
Regarding LBC, with the exception of one little weasel ('O' brien), all the other presenters are fair and reasonable and get people on the show who give a balanced view, even Farage who will take calls from people who ring up and have a go at him.
You won't change my view regarding Flanders, never heard of her and neither had some of you..
Try learning to read Mr I have a PhD. I didn't say you read the Daily Mail, I was referring to the "fair and reasonable" pundits you constantly fawn constantly supporting hard-right/far-right positions. By the way I guess you weren't listening earlier this week when JOB had a few callers on arguing against him.
I doubt I've posted anything from the Mail here. Another lie from you. Pack it in. Just because you've never heard of Flanders doesn't mean no one else has. Maybe educate yourself instead of posting the same nonsense on here over and over again. Getting embarrassing for a so-called PhD holding manager with an Irish passport who thinks Cologne is next to Nuremberg and thinks Farage and Ferrari are fair and balanced
No Mr try reading, i don't listen to JOB, as he is a bully. Anyone who supports him must think bullying is ok. I stopped listening last year when he took the piss out of fisherman from Grimsby who wanted their livlihoood back. Disgusting comments from a man who is supposed to stand up for the british worker. I dont think Ferrari/fogerty/Dale/Collins/Farage lap up to the Daily Mail. So stop lying. Pack it in.
Ah Grimsby, the place that voted to leave the EU but then...
Every single day that passes more and more evidence is amassed from every possible source both domestic and overseas that the U.K. is heading for the rocks, yet still the response to the serious issues posed is pathetic.
Depends where you source your information and who you believe. Nobody here heard of Stephanie Flanders till her name was posted here yesterday, yes most of you googled her name and now know all about her. You may kid each other but you don't kid me. The response is pathetic you are right,. That's why its now 80 pages and still going zzzzzzzz.
I doubt anyone other than you needed to Google who Stephanie Flanders is. And you refuse to inform yourself for completely insane reasons. Instead you just listen to the hard-right Daily Mail reject pundits on LBC and regurgitate their opinions on here. That's even more pathetic than using a search engine.
I don't know how many more times you need to be told, I don't read any tory papers (in fact I suspect you hold the record for posting most of its bollocks on here, (but that does figure). Seeing as you are so fascinated by me, I read the independent. I am certainly not on the right of politics more to the left if anything.
Regarding LBC, with the exception of one little weasel ('O' brien), all the other presenters are fair and reasonable and get people on the show who give a balanced view, even Farage who will take calls from people who ring up and have a go at him.
You won't change my view regarding Flanders, never heard of her and neither had some of you..
Try learning to read Mr I have a PhD. I didn't say you read the Daily Mail, I was referring to the "fair and reasonable" pundits you constantly fawn constantly supporting hard-right/far-right positions. By the way I guess you weren't listening earlier this week when JOB had a few callers on arguing against him.
I doubt I've posted anything from the Mail here. Another lie from you. Pack it in. Just because you've never heard of Flanders doesn't mean no one else has. Maybe educate yourself instead of posting the same nonsense on here over and over again. Getting embarrassing for a so-called PhD holding manager with an Irish passport who thinks Cologne is next to Nuremberg and thinks Farage and Ferrari are fair and balanced
No Mr try reading, i don't listen to JOB, as he is a bully. Anyone who supports him must think bullying is ok. I stopped listening last year when he took the piss out of fisherman from Grimsby who wanted their livlihoood back. Disgusting comments from a man who is supposed to stand up for the british worker. I dont think Ferrari/fogerty/Dale/Collins/Farage lap up to the Daily Mail. So stop lying. Pack it in.
There's a difference between bullying and pointing out that if a group of people are reliant on the EU for their livelihood then they shouldn't have voted to leave. JOB is much, much better than people like Farage and Ferrari who routinely insult guests when they're losing the argument. You openly admit supporting these bullies who just repeat mantras from the Daily Mail.
Bullying would be, for example, telling a fellow Charlton fan and Briton he doesn't deserve a vote because he lives abroad.
Every single day that passes more and more evidence is amassed from every possible source both domestic and overseas that the U.K. is heading for the rocks, yet still the response to the serious issues posed is pathetic.
Depends where you source your information and who you believe. Nobody here heard of Stephanie Flanders till her name was posted here yesterday, yes most of you googled her name and now know all about her. You may kid each other but you don't kid me. The response is pathetic you are right,. That's why its now 80 pages and still going zzzzzzzz.
I doubt anyone other than you needed to Google who Stephanie Flanders is. And you refuse to inform yourself for completely insane reasons. Instead you just listen to the hard-right Daily Mail reject pundits on LBC and regurgitate their opinions on here. That's even more pathetic than using a search engine.
I don't know how many more times you need to be told, I don't read any tory papers (in fact I suspect you hold the record for posting most of its bollocks on here, (but that does figure). Seeing as you are so fascinated by me, I read the independent. I am certainly not on the right of politics more to the left if anything.
Regarding LBC, with the exception of one little weasel ('O' brien), all the other presenters are fair and reasonable and get people on the show who give a balanced view, even Farage who will take calls from people who ring up and have a go at him.
You won't change my view regarding Flanders, never heard of her and neither had some of you..
Try learning to read Mr I have a PhD. I didn't say you read the Daily Mail, I was referring to the "fair and reasonable" pundits you constantly fawn constantly supporting hard-right/far-right positions. By the way I guess you weren't listening earlier this week when JOB had a few callers on arguing against him.
I doubt I've posted anything from the Mail here. Another lie from you. Pack it in. Just because you've never heard of Flanders doesn't mean no one else has. Maybe educate yourself instead of posting the same nonsense on here over and over again. Getting embarrassing for a so-called PhD holding manager with an Irish passport who thinks Cologne is next to Nuremberg and thinks Farage and Ferrari are fair and balanced
No Mr try reading, i don't listen to JOB, as he is a bully. Anyone who supports him must think bullying is ok. I stopped listening last year when he took the piss out of fisherman from Grimsby who wanted their livlihoood back. Disgusting comments from a man who is supposed to stand up for the british worker. I dont think Ferrari/fogerty/Dale/Collins/Farage lap up to the Daily Mail. So stop lying. Pack it in.
There's a difference between bullying and pointing out that if a group of people are reliant on the EU for their livelihood then they shouldn't have voted to leave. JOB is much, much better than people like Farage and Ferrari who routinely insult guests when they're losing the argument. You openly admit supporting these bullies who just repeat mantras from the Daily Mail.
Bullying would be, for example, telling a fellow Charlton fan and Briton he doesn't deserve a vote because he lives abroad.
Don't be ridiculous, is saying prisoners shouldn't get a vote bullying.
Every single day that passes more and more evidence is amassed from every possible source both domestic and overseas that the U.K. is heading for the rocks, yet still the response to the serious issues posed is pathetic.
Depends where you source your information and who you believe. Nobody here heard of Stephanie Flanders till her name was posted here yesterday, yes most of you googled her name and now know all about her. You may kid each other but you don't kid me. The response is pathetic you are right,. That's why its now 80 pages and still going zzzzzzzz.
I doubt anyone other than you needed to Google who Stephanie Flanders is. And you refuse to inform yourself for completely insane reasons. Instead you just listen to the hard-right Daily Mail reject pundits on LBC and regurgitate their opinions on here. That's even more pathetic than using a search engine.
I don't know how many more times you need to be told, I don't read any tory papers (in fact I suspect you hold the record for posting most of its bollocks on here, (but that does figure). Seeing as you are so fascinated by me, I read the independent. I am certainly not on the right of politics more to the left if anything.
Regarding LBC, with the exception of one little weasel ('O' brien), all the other presenters are fair and reasonable and get people on the show who give a balanced view, even Farage who will take calls from people who ring up and have a go at him.
You won't change my view regarding Flanders, never heard of her and neither had some of you..
Try learning to read Mr I have a PhD. I didn't say you read the Daily Mail, I was referring to the "fair and reasonable" pundits you constantly fawn constantly supporting hard-right/far-right positions. By the way I guess you weren't listening earlier this week when JOB had a few callers on arguing against him.
I doubt I've posted anything from the Mail here. Another lie from you. Pack it in. Just because you've never heard of Flanders doesn't mean no one else has. Maybe educate yourself instead of posting the same nonsense on here over and over again. Getting embarrassing for a so-called PhD holding manager with an Irish passport who thinks Cologne is next to Nuremberg and thinks Farage and Ferrari are fair and balanced
No Mr try reading, i don't listen to JOB, as he is a bully. Anyone who supports him must think bullying is ok. I stopped listening last year when he took the piss out of fisherman from Grimsby who wanted their livlihoood back. Disgusting comments from a man who is supposed to stand up for the british worker. I dont think Ferrari/fogerty/Dale/Collins/Farage lap up to the Daily Mail. So stop lying. Pack it in.
There's a difference between bullying and pointing out that if a group of people are reliant on the EU for their livelihood then they shouldn't have voted to leave. JOB is much, much better than people like Farage and Ferrari who routinely insult guests when they're losing the argument. You openly admit supporting these bullies who just repeat mantras from the Daily Mail.
Bullying would be, for example, telling a fellow Charlton fan and Briton he doesn't deserve a vote because he lives abroad.
Don't be ridiculous, is saying prisoners shouldn't get a vote bullying.
No of course not. That’s an opinion.
JOB was showing derision of Grimsby fisherman who voted leave when the Grimsby fishing fleet is reliant on eu Labour, eu money and exporting it’s products to the eu.
If that doesn’t demand a laughable contempt then nothing does. He was not taking the piss out of the brirtish (whatever that is) worker.
Folks, does anybody believe that any amount of facts or evidence is going to be accepted by people set in their ways?
Last week there was a conference of the Flat Earth Society and there was an interview with a lady who simply believed the Earth was flat, and any scientific reasoning wouldn't wash with her (and others). We are apparently living in some kind of gigantic snow dome with walls around the edges to stop us falling off. Cameras that take pictures of the earth from space are wrong, and anyway the space missions are a diversion and a con...and so on and so on. They believe it because they simply want to, but at the moment they are losers in the debate about the shape of the planet.
There really seems to be no reason for any of us to brings facts, research, evidence or whatever into things. People aren't going to change their minds.
However, that still leaves us with winners and losers.
Brexit won, so now they have to be able to implement it, and demonstrate a plan to deal with all the ins and outs of it. This is where they will succeed or much more likely fail, they don't know how to deal with all the ins and outs, and when questioned the answer is wait and see, lets hope for the best.
It has been said from the beginning of all this to the brexiters 'you won, get on with it', but they can't get on with it because it is too difficult for them. Quoting this or that expert or fact is pointless, point out the phenomenology instead.
Nail on head! Davis, Fox, Johnson and Gove have to get on with it and then pretend that there's a "confidential strategy". But it's obvious to us, to Corbyn and to Barnier that they haven't got a Scooby. Varadkar is incredulous that there is no rational proposal and the point that @Dippenhall misses when looking at the world through his hard Brexit lens is that the UK will not be allowed to drag this out and play politics with the Irish border and the GFA.
As well as this issue, the rights of the three million EU citizens need to be resolved first and not held as hostage to later proceedings. The EU27 announced the sequencing and that was accepted. Those who moan about it are simply looking for excuses or to play the victim card.
Your second main point is one that is being discussed in many places: what will it take to change people's minds? It is clear that between half and two thirds of leave voters are entrenched. Defending their decision and the various pillars of their case even in the face of the evolving situation and the detailed dissection which is part and parcel of Brexecution (love that new term!).
Just like the fishermen in Grimsby and workers in Sundrland, real workers are contemplating the risk and impact of a decision that nobody expected. As posted before, only one third of the electorate believe in leaving the Customs Union. We will see in 2018 as this situation evolves whether May survives and whether the likes of Clarke and Tory remainers break away from the Hard Brexit "mob". The last poll I cited on here showed a 7 point shift for C2DE workers from 63:37 to 56:44 in favour of leave.
When that research is updated in 2018 we may well be in a different place? And perhaps May will pivot to a Customs Union solution in order to deliver progress on the whole thing - for how else will the EU27 move forwards without resolution on the Irish border?
The arguments and polls will evolve and in the background, EU growth will continue at 2% whilst the UK faces its own domestic challenges... and without being able to blame the EU! We are approaching a crunch time as May and Davis have ten days to finalise their position for the next meeting. They either move in a substantive way on the three questions or they don't.
In the meantime, Brexit supporters are losing respectability by the day. The cavalier attitudes of Johnson and Gove don't help along with their obvious connections to Murdoch. And people are starting to ask questions as to why less EU nationals are applying to the NHS or why the Brexit media seek to villify judges and MPs.
No single episode is decisive but it's possible that the aggregate effect will flick the needle? Polls have shifted a few points since Article 50 was invoked back in March. Perhaps they will shift a few more by the time Spring and Summer 2018 comes around? There may come a time when remaining in the EEA, CU and SM becomes the respectable solution adopted by Parliament?
Every single day that passes more and more evidence is amassed from every possible source both domestic and overseas that the U.K. is heading for the rocks, yet still the response to the serious issues posed is pathetic.
Depends where you source your information and who you believe. Nobody here heard of Stephanie Flanders till her name was posted here yesterday, yes most of you googled her name and now know all about her. You may kid each other but you don't kid me. The response is pathetic you are right,. That's why its now 80 pages and still going zzzzzzzz.
I doubt anyone other than you needed to Google who Stephanie Flanders is. And you refuse to inform yourself for completely insane reasons. Instead you just listen to the hard-right Daily Mail reject pundits on LBC and regurgitate their opinions on here. That's even more pathetic than using a search engine.
I don't know how many more times you need to be told, I don't read any tory papers (in fact I suspect you hold the record for posting most of its bollocks on here, (but that does figure). Seeing as you are so fascinated by me, I read the independent. I am certainly not on the right of politics more to the left if anything.
Regarding LBC, with the exception of one little weasel ('O' brien), all the other presenters are fair and reasonable and get people on the show who give a balanced view, even Farage who will take calls from people who ring up and have a go at him.
You won't change my view regarding Flanders, never heard of her and neither had some of you..
Try learning to read Mr I have a PhD. I didn't say you read the Daily Mail, I was referring to the "fair and reasonable" pundits you constantly fawn constantly supporting hard-right/far-right positions. By the way I guess you weren't listening earlier this week when JOB had a few callers on arguing against him.
I doubt I've posted anything from the Mail here. Another lie from you. Pack it in. Just because you've never heard of Flanders doesn't mean no one else has. Maybe educate yourself instead of posting the same nonsense on here over and over again. Getting embarrassing for a so-called PhD holding manager with an Irish passport who thinks Cologne is next to Nuremberg and thinks Farage and Ferrari are fair and balanced
No Mr try reading, i don't listen to JOB, as he is a bully. Anyone who supports him must think bullying is ok. I stopped listening last year when he took the piss out of fisherman from Grimsby who wanted their livlihoood back. Disgusting comments from a man who is supposed to stand up for the british worker. I dont think Ferrari/fogerty/Dale/Collins/Farage lap up to the Daily Mail. So stop lying. Pack it in.
There's a difference between bullying and pointing out that if a group of people are reliant on the EU for their livelihood then they shouldn't have voted to leave. JOB is much, much better than people like Farage and Ferrari who routinely insult guests when they're losing the argument. You openly admit supporting these bullies who just repeat mantras from the Daily Mail.
Bullying would be, for example, telling a fellow Charlton fan and Briton he doesn't deserve a vote because he lives abroad.
Don't be ridiculous, is saying prisoners shouldn't get a vote bullying.
One of the Vote Leave leaders is on the newspaper review on Marr this morning talking about the Irish border issue highlighted in the Observer. His practical solution to the border problem is 'we'll have to wait and see'. Folk quote experts and post links left right and centre on this thread, but nobody has suggested, or posted a link to an expert or an article that suggests any practical solution. If a 'no deal' outcome arises from Brexit it is 100% down to the UK, and absolutely nothing to do with the EU playing hardball.
PS Ruth Davison bottles the solution question and says 'we still have two weeks' to sort it out. Given this has been going on for months and months she is pathetically hopeful, or this time she hasn't kicked the can very far down the road.
So Liam, what if there is a no deal? If anybody with the ability to think, to think in practical terms, even those in favour of Brexit, in what universe is the Liam Fox solution going to work? It is a bit like saying 'I won't agree to marry you until I see what it feels like after we get married'. Surely to God somebody who voted Tory or somebody who voted Brexit must be able to sort this mess out, after all there were north of 17 million of you.
One of the Vote Leave leaders is on the newspaper review on Marr this morning talking about the Irish border issue highlighted in the Observer. His practical solution to the border problem is 'we'll have to wait and see'. Folk quote experts and post links left right and centre on this thread, but nobody has suggested, or posted a link to an expert or an article that suggests any practical solution. If a 'no deal' outcome arises from Brexit it is 100% down to the UK, and absolutely nothing to do with the EU playing hardball.
Actually there is a very practical solution - the UK remains in the customs union and single market (with the four freedoms intact), that way we leave the EU (so no one can claim that the democratic will of the people has been ignored), avoid a hard border with Ireland and avoid wrecking our economy.
Given that only 52% voted for Brexit it is almost certain that less than half of those who voted saw uncontrolled immigration as their primary motivating factor so it's insane to try and pursue a position that defies all reason and logic to satisfy the demands of a (vocal) minority.
I’ll bang Seth’s drum here. I havn't heard one single credible suggestion over the border issue. On Peston the conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi is saying that a border decision can’t be decided until a trade deal is agreed because what type of border will ultimately depend on that trade deal. A logic of sorts until you accept the fact that our negotiating partners do not accept this. It is May and Davis saying that there needs to be flexibility. If indeed they do really want to move the negotiations on when the two parties meet in two weeks I suggest that this critical issue is a decent starting point.
One of the Vote Leave leaders is on the newspaper review on Marr this morning talking about the Irish border issue highlighted in the Observer. His practical solution to the border problem is 'we'll have to wait and see'. Folk quote experts and post links left right and centre on this thread, but nobody has suggested, or posted a link to an expert or an article that suggests any practical solution. If a 'no deal' outcome arises from Brexit it is 100% down to the UK, and absolutely nothing to do with the EU playing hardball.
Actually there is a very practical solution - the UK remains in the customs union and single market (with the four freedoms intact), that way we leave the EU (so no one can claim that the democratic will of the people has been ignored), avoid a hard border with Ireland and avoid wrecking our economy.
Given that only 52% voted for Brexit it is almost certain that less than half of those who voted saw uncontrolled immigration as their primary motivating factor so it's insane to try and pursue a position that defies all reason and logic to satisfy the demands of a (vocal) minority.
To the first paragraph - that is exactly what Farage, Hannan, Vote Leave, the Tory Brexiters etc. promoted during the campaign. For them to suggest otherwise after the vote is disgraceful. Those voting Leave were largely under the impression we would retain access to the Single Market, with all the caveats that entails.
To the second paragraph, a poll last week now showed the support for 'Hard' Brexit has fallen to 10%. There is absolutely no democratic mandate for dragging us out of the Single Market or for building border walls to EU migrants. The sad thing is even if we retain the most crucial elements of EU membership, we still stands to lose thousands of cross-continent benefits once we leave the EU (reciprocal healthcare, mobile phone roaming caps, environmental safeguards, regional protection, IP protection etc.). We are already losing out on Brexit even before we have left as two European agencies have quit the UK, thus diminishing our influence and severely harming the local commerce of the areas those agencies were based.
The more I read the more shambolic this gets day by day. I’m readying myself for the Mail propaganda onslaught that talks of nasty Europeans not willing to negotiate
Comments
I think you have sincerely held beliefs, and you are wise enough to realise that because we disagree it doesn't make either of us automatic dickheads. Indeed I welcome your contributions, especially as you often express frustration about being outnumbered and frustrated by others on this thread.
One of the themes that run through the brexit thread is one about the financial implications of it all, the other is about the voracity of research and evidence. However another theme to be respected is that people have desires and expectations and opinions, and will interpret a lot of stuff to simply back up how they feel and what they want.
With respect I think your take on the stance of the EU on this question is a valid expression of your opinion, but whether it is the actual truth is a lot more complex.
Lets take what you say about the control of borders being an anathema to remainers, in my case it is true. There was a spaceman on breakfast telly the other day who said that when looking at the planet from the space station, he could see the pollution in East China and India, but couldn't see the borders, I think a bit like that, but all remainers are not like me.
However I focus on the Irish border in particular because I see it as an expression of the whole problem of brexit generally, as you seem to do by saying the the EU are using the border issue, not in a sincere way, but as a bargaining tool for some nefarious objective.
I agree with what you said that to some extent little old Ireland is a victim of greater forces, brexit and the wider EU, and is indeed thrust into the space between the rock and the hard place against their will. However this bit you wrote is something I disagree with:
'The UK does not have a problem with an open border on the Island and flexible customs controls, only Remainers suggest the Brexit vote means a hard border is inevitable.'
The vote for brexit suggests to me that the UK does have a problem with an open border, on the island and elsewhere. We are regularly told that people voted brexit to 'take back control' including of borders, and even what you describe as 'flexible customs controls' is what I would call a hard border, however user friendly and smiling such controls are. It will be different (if control is taken back), and not as uncontrolled as travelling from London to Cardiff as it were.
Would you like to suggest what those 'flexible controls' would be like, for goods and people, in practical terms?
You move on to describe the shrill noises from the Irish premier, and suggest he has to choose between peace, and what I think you mean some kind of bespoke arrangement on the island. If you could communicate yours (or anybody's) vision of such a bespoke arrangement to the Irish leader maybe he will be less 'shrill', but he has been thrust into this situation unwillingly by the referendum result from a foreign power. Leo Varadkar is exposed to a situation where he has to satisfy the wishes of Ireland, the wishes of the EU, the Good Friday Agreement and also it seems he has to satisfy the wishes of the brexit voters of a foreign country by making it all happen to everybody's satisfaction.
In the context of what I have written, and you can maintain the EU is being manipulative regarding the Irish issue for malevolent ends if you like, there have actually been no practical and workable solutions suggested by the UK to sort it all out, and in my view Leo Varadker was perfectly in order to ask brexiters and the UK if anybody had thought it all through.
The irony is that one of the UK leading(sic) newspapers answers by telling him to grow up and shut his gob.
If there can be a workable agreed negotiated solution to this mess then wonderful, all I say is you and other brexiters, and the brexit lobby of the UK, you ought to make the first move and come up with the first tranche of suggestions. To say no suggestions can be put forward until the nature of trade is established is a smoke screen, it means nothing, it is a place to hide for those who have no ideas.
However, I'm not sure that such a thing is possible.
Mostly because I'm afraid that this is probably the only post of yours that I have read, over the course of the whole Brexit "adventure" to date, with which I am unable to find any merit.
I know that others have made some of the points that I would have raised, so I apologise also if I go over some old ground again.
I remember, some time in the dim and distant past of 2016, when, in discussions over Ireland, we discussed the Irish border and you felt there would be a "fudge" solution, whilst I was less sanguine. I remain to be convinced that such an approach is likely to succeed or even possible.
As a Remainer, I am confident that EU member states have the control over their borders that they desire. Borders are not anathema to me, nor is the idea that, for EU member states, shared economic and political interests can allow for a reduction of that which divides the nation states, including a pooling of border controls.
Within the EU, there is (in customs terms) control of the external borders of the Single Market. Many EU member states have agreed to remove barriers for their citizens within the Schengen zone (which mirrors precisely the experience at the moment of anyone crossing the land border in Ireland), but this does not mean that there can be no border controls - as anyone having seen the security checks of recent years can attest.
As others have mentioned the border in Ireland is not an internal border, unless you are discussing in customs terms within the EU/Single Market. The only ones undermining this Single Market internal border are those seeking to withdraw the UK from the Single Market/Customs Union. The EU have made the border question, in no small part because of the Irish Government's insistence, one of the three areas regarding the negotiation process for an agreed exit from the EU that must achieve enough momentum to allow for other elements of the talks to progress.
I really don't understand why people feel that it is the big, bad EU that is trying to twist Ireland's arm in this. Trust me, Ireland is more than capable of holding an independent view of what would signify "sufficient progress", because it is precisely this sort of independent view that will determine whether Ireland agrees that the UK have put forward realistic, concrete proposals for how the UK sees the border operating without restriction.
The rules on customs controls are not those of the EU, but the WTO. Neither the UK, unless it wishes to allow completely free access to any third party states (no tariff nor any non tariff barriers), nor the EU will want to have an open and unmanaged external customs border. Yet the UK Government is effectively stating that this is its solution to social, economic, political and security concerns in Ireland. There is no way to have the sort of border arrangements that the UK Government says that it wants without the UK (or Northern Ireland) being in the Customs Union. If there have to be border controls in Ireland, the only ones who are responsible for that will be the UK Government (representing the will of the people, as expressed in the referendum, which I am now told was an overwhelming popular vote to leave the EU, Single Market and Customs Union - it's obvious that a pitiful few ballot papers were printed as the HMG inkjet was running low, so some of us didn't see all the words).
Nothing that has been put forward on the UK side of the border element of the negotiations has risen above platitudes and wishful thinking. This may be perfectly okay in an election, or even a referendum, campaign, but it just doesn't wash for any kind of intensive legalistic international treaty negotiation.
To be honest, the EU and the Irish Government are doing more to represent the wishes of voters in Northern Ireland than are the UK Government or the DUP. Michel Barnier has been intimately involved with Northern Ireland and the outworkings of the peace process in his career, and has been utterly consistent over the course of the talks to date. Arlene Foster, on the other hand, has been making clear that her decision to enter politics was not a great loss for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
It is the EU and the Irish Government that has attempted to put forward possible solutions that would respect the outcome of the UK vote to leave the EU and, at the same time, prevent the possibility of a return to more political violence in Northern Ireland because of a change to the border. But the UK Government, and its junior partners in the Conservative Party, have rejected such a solution out of hand.
You won't want to hear me say this, but I worry that the UK Government (and the media, to be fair) misunderstand utterly the negotiations in which they are engaged. I would even go so far as to suggest that they've been delusional.
The EU has been seeking "sufficient progress" in three areas, before moving on to Phase 2, to look at the future relationship. The UK Government, on the other hand, has decided (as it its right) to announce that it will exit the Single Market and Customs Union (which as, the not shrill, Leo Varadkar has pointed out, is, if anything, a Phase 2 discussion) and has also decided, heavily influenced by Jessie J's "Price Tag", that the "sufficient progress" in all three areas boils down simply to the money, money, money.
We are witnessing, at the moment, the dawning realisation on the part of the UK Government that the EU's approach to the negotiations is to do exactly what it says on the tin. The process has been agreed, scheduled and structured, and the EU are following that process. In the same way, the decision has been made that the UK will leave both the Single Market and the Customs Union, this decision means that the process for any trade negotiations will also follow a set path - leading to a CETA-style FTA or no deal.
Solar??????
In Northern Ireland?????????????????
The only way to power anything like that would be from Arlene Foster's sunny disposition. ;-)
Seriously, though, it was wood pellet boilers, and an Irish Language Act, and shockingly poor political representatives.
Regarding LBC, with the exception of one little weasel ('O' brien), all the other presenters are fair and reasonable and get people on the show who give a balanced view, even Farage who will take calls from people who ring up and have a go at him.
You won't change my view regarding Flanders, never heard of her and neither had some of you..
I doubt I've posted anything from the Mail here. Another lie from you. Pack it in. Just because you've never heard of Flanders doesn't mean no one else has. Maybe educate yourself instead of posting the same nonsense on here over and over again. Getting embarrassing for a so-called PhD holding manager with an Irish passport who thinks Cologne is next to Nuremberg and thinks Farage and Ferrari are fair and balanced
http://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-news/brexit-exemption-sought-grimsby-seafood-736984
Bullying would be, for example, telling a fellow Charlton fan and Briton he doesn't deserve a vote because he lives abroad.
JOB was showing derision of Grimsby fisherman who voted leave when the Grimsby fishing fleet is reliant on eu Labour, eu money and exporting it’s products to the eu.
If that doesn’t demand a laughable contempt then nothing does. He was not taking the piss out of the brirtish (whatever that is) worker.
As well as this issue, the rights of the three million EU citizens need to be resolved first and not held as hostage to later proceedings. The EU27 announced the sequencing and that was accepted. Those who moan about it are simply looking for excuses or to play the victim card.
Your second main point is one that is being discussed in many places: what will it take to change people's minds? It is clear that between half and two thirds of leave voters are entrenched. Defending their decision and the various pillars of their case even in the face of the evolving situation and the detailed dissection which is part and parcel of Brexecution (love that new term!).
Just like the fishermen in Grimsby and workers in Sundrland, real workers are contemplating the risk and impact of a decision that nobody expected. As posted before, only one third of the electorate believe in leaving the Customs Union. We will see in 2018 as this situation evolves whether May survives and whether the likes of Clarke and Tory remainers break away from the Hard Brexit "mob". The last poll I cited on here showed a 7 point shift for C2DE workers from 63:37 to 56:44 in favour of leave.
When that research is updated in 2018 we may well be in a different place? And perhaps May will pivot to a Customs Union solution in order to deliver progress on the whole thing - for how else will the EU27 move forwards without resolution on the Irish border?
The arguments and polls will evolve and in the background, EU growth will continue at 2% whilst the UK faces its own domestic challenges... and without being able to blame the EU! We are approaching a crunch time as May and Davis have ten days to finalise their position for the next meeting. They either move in a substantive way on the three questions or they don't.
In the meantime, Brexit supporters are losing respectability by the day. The cavalier attitudes of Johnson and Gove don't help along with their obvious connections to Murdoch. And people are starting to ask questions as to why less EU nationals are applying to the NHS or why the Brexit media seek to villify judges and MPs.
No single episode is decisive but it's possible that the aggregate effect will flick the needle? Polls have shifted a few points since Article 50 was invoked back in March. Perhaps they will shift a few more by the time Spring and Summer 2018 comes around? There may come a time when remaining in the EEA, CU and SM becomes the respectable solution adopted by Parliament?
His practical solution to the border problem is 'we'll have to wait and see'.
Folk quote experts and post links left right and centre on this thread, but nobody has suggested, or posted a link to an expert or an article that suggests any practical solution.
If a 'no deal' outcome arises from Brexit it is 100% down to the UK, and absolutely nothing to do with the EU playing hardball.
Ruth Davison bottles the solution question and says 'we still have two weeks' to sort it out.
Given this has been going on for months and months she is pathetically hopeful, or this time she hasn't kicked the can very far down the road.
How the hell is that supposed to work?
If anybody with the ability to think, to think in practical terms, even those in favour of Brexit, in what universe is the Liam Fox solution going to work?
It is a bit like saying 'I won't agree to marry you until I see what it feels like after we get married'.
Surely to God somebody who voted Tory or somebody who voted Brexit must be able to sort this mess out, after all there were north of 17 million of you.
Given that only 52% voted for Brexit it is almost certain that less than half of those who voted saw uncontrolled immigration as their primary motivating factor so it's insane to try and pursue a position that defies all reason and logic to satisfy the demands of a (vocal) minority.
To the second paragraph, a poll last week now showed the support for 'Hard' Brexit has fallen to 10%. There is absolutely no democratic mandate for dragging us out of the Single Market or for building border walls to EU migrants. The sad thing is even if we retain the most crucial elements of EU membership, we still stands to lose thousands of cross-continent benefits once we leave the EU (reciprocal healthcare, mobile phone roaming caps, environmental safeguards, regional protection, IP protection etc.). We are already losing out on Brexit even before we have left as two European agencies have quit the UK, thus diminishing our influence and severely harming the local commerce of the areas those agencies were based.
That for me is the next phase.
So you are not going to pull apart Fiiish’s post above but quite happy to LOL it.
Surely that’s letting down your PhD credentials ?