Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I'd almost be inclined to agree with @Stu_of_Kunming and say "No". However, I would caveat this agreement, because such a policy will only not be racist, or not be implemented in a racist manner, if it is absolutely clear that that benefit to the economy (and wider society, because drugs barons could be beneficial to the economy, but I'm not sure how good they'd be beyond that) is the sole determining factor.
I know Australia has moved on considerably over the last forty years or so (since the days of the White Australia immigration policies - the last of which, coincidentally, or perhaps not, was abolished when the UK was joining the EU), but I'm not sure that the Australian approach can be simply transferred to the UK.
What I would suggest needs to happen for a sustainable immigration policy (politically as much as anything else) is proper long-term planning, within a context of long-term planning for the wider economy and society, but, sadly, because they refuse to address us as adults, UK politicians will not do this.
In any event, nativist politicians will never agree to an open needs-based immigration policy.
Is this 'preferred methodology' in the public domain? I would like to see it and understand some of the base elements.
Interesting ONS stats on the front page of the times showing Eu workers in the uk at a higher level now than pre referendum. I am not displeased with that personally albeit I do feel longer term action is required to have some controls in place.
Anyone got a link to the actual stats? That seems to go against all recent reports on the matter.
Well I looked for myself. And I did not find. Not on the Times website, and certainly not in any other articles that come up on Google.
here is the most comprehensive recent presentation of the stats I could find, from 30th August. It shows migration from the EU on the way down, the decline led by those from the most recent accession countries.
I also read that the next ONS figures are out on 30. November. So heaven knows what the Times might have been on about. But it's full of Brexiteers so it could come out with anything. It hasn't come out with £80bn., though...
Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I think people having concerns over immigration levels is perfectly valid and absolutely doesn't mark one out as holding racist views. Whether those concerns are justified or not is another issue and I believe that there are many more aspects within the UK that people should be more concerned about than immigration levels...a topic which has been constantly demonised by the popular press.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.
#rotfl
Go on...
I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
Yeah, lots.
Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?
You're always so encouraging.
I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.
My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.
I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.
Right on, brother.
I disagree with you when you say this is a massively racist and bigoted country. There is racism and bigotry which might not be everywhere all the time, but may well be enough to alienate people. I am the father of a mixed race son and he is very frequently made aware of his 'difference' (tho born in Lewisham hospital) and encounters low level racism on a weekly basis. It makes me wonder how prejudiced people might be towards him under the surface based on the tip of the iceberg principle...others might say I am being paranoid. There is definitely racism and bigotry in this country, but maybe not massive, but certainly it is always there lurking around.
Can you point me to a country that doesn't suffer from a certain level of racism?
Two points from me.. my son is mixed race and has told me he's never had a problem about it.
I'm dealing with accusations of racism at work at the moment. The Black British staff have complained of racism by the eastern European staff. The eastern Europeans say they are not racist but... The Black British say " they come over here"
I'd pull my hair out if I could.
Well that's quite peculiar. One mixed race young man suffers low level racism on a weekly basis and yet another mixed race young man also living in SE London has never had a problem. I'm not suggesting anything just in case someone assumes I am.
Maybe there is a difference as to how people perceive racism, especially low level racism.
Yes, I think that could be the answer. The other less plausible thought I have is whether one persons actions or demeanour leads to comments, but that would surely only explain a difference in numbers, as opposed to a weekly occurence v nil occurence.
I hope I've worded this correctly, because I wouldn't wish to offend anyone.
Sometimes people are on the receiving end of comments when they have said and done nothing, don't show any kind of demeanour, but just are there, in existence as it were. That can sometimes lead to comments as well.
The people who had the most concerns about immigration live in areas with the lowest levels of immigration, whilst in the big cities (outside of the weirdness of the west midlands) people are a lot less concerned.
Anyway, this silly English nationalism is going to far
Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I think people having concerns over immigration levels is perfectly valid and absolutely doesn't mark one out as holding racist views. Whether those concerns are justified or not is another issue and I believe that there are many more aspects within the UK that people should be more concerned about than immigration levels...a topic which has been constantly demonised by the popular press.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
No but the dickheads illegally or even just incorrectly rinsing up benefits could certainly manage those roles and have their benefits cut down should they choose to make no effort to add to the economy rather than draining it.
(Yes I disagree with benefit sponges, however appreciate that some do in fact need the benefits they claim for legitimate reasons)
Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I think people having concerns over immigration levels is perfectly valid and absolutely doesn't mark one out as holding racist views. Whether those concerns are justified or not is another issue and I believe that there are many more aspects within the UK that people should be more concerned about than immigration levels...a topic which has been constantly demonised by the popular press.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
No but the dickheads illegally or even just incorrectly rinsing up benefits could certainly manage those roles and have their benefits cut down should they choose to make no effort to add to the economy rather than draining it.
(Yes I disagree with benefit sponges, however appreciate that some do in fact need the benefits they claim for legitimate reasons)
No. They couldn't. Levels of long term unemployment are at rock bottom.
The idea that by removing long term unemployment benefits, from the tiny minority of the population that receive them, we will have enough labour in the market to fill all the low skilled roles is far too simplistic in my view. Those few that don't want to work will find a way to continue not working, probably by increasing their already illegal activities and others will be inherently unemployable in the longer term. Even if they are willing to work for minimum wage on a zero hour contract.
Look at the US for example. I'm pretty sure our social security system is more generous than theirs yet they still have to rely on cheap immigrant labour for the jobs that no one wants to do. To be blunt, there is not going to be a queue around the door for a job on mimimum pay cleaning up some poor old boy in a care home at 3.00am is there?
It is a public holiday here today, a very resonant one too (Freedom Day, the fall of communism), so sad ****** that I am, I took the time to call the ONS. Very approachable people but unfortunately the main guy is on hols today. Someone else is due to call me back however I think I may have already solved the puzzle.
More than half of the change in net migration can be accounted for by a decrease in net migration of EU citizens (down 51,000); this was driven by an increase (33,000) in emigration for EU citizens (in particular EU8 emigration up 17,000 (both statistically significant)) and a 19,000 decrease in immigration (not statistically significant).
This is the report that will be updated on 30th November.
What these statistics should not be used for, and why These statistics do not measure stocks or flows of recent migrants to the UK, because they include people resident in the UK for many years (many of whom will now be UK nationals) as well as more recent arrivals. This, along with a range of other factors, means that net changes in the number of non-UK workers in the UK cannot be directly compared with long-term net migration for non-UK nationals.
This warning was completely ignored by Migration Watch in the BBC report which @Imissthepeanutman read. It is totally understandable then that he understood it as he did.
Just reading quickly but a little confused. If the figures include those who are now U.K. nationals, then obviously it cannot be compared to migration for non-UK nationals ... or am I missing something?
I think it is clear that this latest set of stats is about people who have entered employment, and as such could have been here any length of time. Therefore it does not tell us anything about whether inward migration of EU citizens is rising or falling. For this we would need to wait until 30 November report.
But if you think I have that wrong, do say so, I still hope to speak with them directly and make sure I've got it right.
Not being awkward or saying you are wrong. The two points seemed to be opposite therefore could not be relative. Will look properly when I am less busy.
Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I think people having concerns over immigration levels is perfectly valid and absolutely doesn't mark one out as holding racist views. Whether those concerns are justified or not is another issue and I believe that there are many more aspects within the UK that people should be more concerned about than immigration levels...a topic which has been constantly demonised by the popular press.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
No but the dickheads illegally or even just incorrectly rinsing up benefits could certainly manage those roles and have their benefits cut down should they choose to make no effort to add to the economy rather than draining it.
(Yes I disagree with benefit sponges, however appreciate that some do in fact need the benefits they claim for legitimate reasons)
So you think or expect the lack Portuguese cleaners or Italian waitresses is going to be addressed by shipping unemployed people around the country doing jobs they don’t want or are unsuited for. Are you expecting the same to address the shortage in vegetable pickers in Lincolnshire or fisherman in Grimsby ?
Apart from the fact that it won’t work ( no pun intended) where are these people going to be housed when being relocated to pick up the slack in foreign workers ? What about those with families with children.
Just like everything else I’ve heard or read about getting rid of low paid unskilled immigrant workforce and indeed Brexit it just hasn’t been thought through.
I disagree with you when you say this is a massively racist and bigoted country. There is racism and bigotry which might not be everywhere all the time, but may well be enough to alienate people. I am the father of a mixed race son and he is very frequently made aware of his 'difference' (tho born in Lewisham hospital) and encounters low level racism on a weekly basis. It makes me wonder how prejudiced people might be towards him under the surface based on the tip of the iceberg principle...others might say I am being paranoid. There is definitely racism and bigotry in this country, but maybe not massive, but certainly it is always there lurking around.
Can you point me to a country that doesn't suffer from a certain level of racism?
Two points from me.. my son is mixed race and has told me he's never had a problem about it.
I'm dealing with accusations of racism at work at the moment. The Black British staff have complained of racism by the eastern European staff. The eastern Europeans say they are not racist but... The Black British say " they come over here"
I'd pull my hair out if I could.
Well that's quite peculiar. One mixed race young man suffers low level racism on a weekly basis and yet another mixed race young man also living in SE London has never had a problem. I'm not suggesting anything just in case someone assumes I am.
Not necessarily peculiar at all. As we don't know the kind of mixed race both these people are, it's entirely possible that one appears to belong to a group that is more the target of racism than the other.
Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I think people having concerns over immigration levels is perfectly valid and absolutely doesn't mark one out as holding racist views. Whether those concerns are justified or not is another issue and I believe that there are many more aspects within the UK that people should be more concerned about than immigration levels...a topic which has been constantly demonised by the popular press.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
No but the dickheads illegally or even just incorrectly rinsing up benefits could certainly manage those roles and have their benefits cut down should they choose to make no effort to add to the economy rather than draining it.
(Yes I disagree with benefit sponges, however appreciate that some do in fact need the benefits they claim for legitimate reasons)
So you think or expect the lack Portuguese cleaners or Italian waitresses is going to be addressed by shipping unemployed people around the country doing jobs they don’t want or are unsuited for. Are you expecting the same to address the shortage in vegetable pickers in Lincolnshire or fisherman in Grimsby ?
Apart from the fact that it won’t work ( no pun intended) where are these people going to be housed when being relocated to pick up the slack in foreign workers ? What about those with families with children.
Just like everything else I’ve heard or read about getting rid of low paid unskilled immigrant workforce and indeed Brexit it just hasn’t been thought through.
He obviously didn’t catch ‘British Workers Wanted’ on C4 last night:-)
Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I think people having concerns over immigration levels is perfectly valid and absolutely doesn't mark one out as holding racist views. Whether those concerns are justified or not is another issue and I believe that there are many more aspects within the UK that people should be more concerned about than immigration levels...a topic which has been constantly demonised by the popular press.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
No but the dickheads illegally or even just incorrectly rinsing up benefits could certainly manage those roles and have their benefits cut down should they choose to make no effort to add to the economy rather than draining it.
(Yes I disagree with benefit sponges, however appreciate that some do in fact need the benefits they claim for legitimate reasons)
So you think or expect the lack Portuguese cleaners or Italian waitresses is going to be addressed by shipping unemployed people around the country doing jobs they don’t want or are unsuited for. Are you expecting the same to address the shortage in vegetable pickers in Lincolnshire or fisherman in Grimsby ?
Apart from the fact that it won’t work ( no pun intended) where are these people going to be housed when being relocated to pick up the slack in foreign workers ? What about those with families with children.
Just like everything else I’ve heard or read about getting rid of low paid unskilled immigrant workforce and indeed Brexit it just hasn’t been thought through.
From my point of view, I don't want anyone moved or shipped or whatever. If there is a waiter job or a picker job and someone in Lisbon or Rome wants to apply for it. Great stuff. Get the job, come over, fill in some paperwork and crack away. If you want to stay long term/forever - no problem, we can discuss it in the future.
What you can't do is bring X friends with you just in case there are X more jobs on offer.
Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I think people having concerns over immigration levels is perfectly valid and absolutely doesn't mark one out as holding racist views. Whether those concerns are justified or not is another issue and I believe that there are many more aspects within the UK that people should be more concerned about than immigration levels...a topic which has been constantly demonised by the popular press.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
No but the dickheads illegally or even just incorrectly rinsing up benefits could certainly manage those roles and have their benefits cut down should they choose to make no effort to add to the economy rather than draining it.
(Yes I disagree with benefit sponges, however appreciate that some do in fact need the benefits they claim for legitimate reasons)
So you think or expect the lack Portuguese cleaners or Italian waitresses is going to be addressed by shipping unemployed people around the country doing jobs they don’t want or are unsuited for. Are you expecting the same to address the shortage in vegetable pickers in Lincolnshire or fisherman in Grimsby ?
Apart from the fact that it won’t work ( no pun intended) where are these people going to be housed when being relocated to pick up the slack in foreign workers ? What about those with families with children.
Just like everything else I’ve heard or read about getting rid of low paid unskilled immigrant workforce and indeed Brexit it just hasn’t been thought through.
From my point of view, I don't want anyone moved or shipped or whatever. If there is a waiter job or a picker job and someone in Lisbon or Rome wants to apply for it. Great stuff. Get the job, come over, fill in some paperwork and crack away. If you want to stay long term/forever - no problem, we can discuss it in the future.
What you can't do is bring X friends with you just in case there are X more jobs on offer.
It seems like you want your cake and eat it @Valiantphil You want the UK to be open for migrants to come here from the EU if they're going to work, but if they're only here signing on and not working, you'd like to be able to throw them out?
Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I think people having concerns over immigration levels is perfectly valid and absolutely doesn't mark one out as holding racist views. Whether those concerns are justified or not is another issue and I believe that there are many more aspects within the UK that people should be more concerned about than immigration levels...a topic which has been constantly demonised by the popular press.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
No but the dickheads illegally or even just incorrectly rinsing up benefits could certainly manage those roles and have their benefits cut down should they choose to make no effort to add to the economy rather than draining it.
(Yes I disagree with benefit sponges, however appreciate that some do in fact need the benefits they claim for legitimate reasons)
So you think or expect the lack Portuguese cleaners or Italian waitresses is going to be addressed by shipping unemployed people around the country doing jobs they don’t want or are unsuited for. Are you expecting the same to address the shortage in vegetable pickers in Lincolnshire or fisherman in Grimsby ?
Apart from the fact that it won’t work ( no pun intended) where are these people going to be housed when being relocated to pick up the slack in foreign workers ? What about those with families with children.
Just like everything else I’ve heard or read about getting rid of low paid unskilled immigrant workforce and indeed Brexit it just hasn’t been thought through.
From my point of view, I don't want anyone moved or shipped or whatever. If there is a waiter job or a picker job and someone in Lisbon or Rome wants to apply for it. Great stuff. Get the job, come over, fill in some paperwork and crack away. If you want to stay long term/forever - no problem, we can discuss it in the future.
What you can't do is bring X friends with you just in case there are X more jobs on offer.
Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I think people having concerns over immigration levels is perfectly valid and absolutely doesn't mark one out as holding racist views. Whether those concerns are justified or not is another issue and I believe that there are many more aspects within the UK that people should be more concerned about than immigration levels...a topic which has been constantly demonised by the popular press.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
No but the dickheads illegally or even just incorrectly rinsing up benefits could certainly manage those roles and have their benefits cut down should they choose to make no effort to add to the economy rather than draining it.
(Yes I disagree with benefit sponges, however appreciate that some do in fact need the benefits they claim for legitimate reasons)
So you think or expect the lack Portuguese cleaners or Italian waitresses is going to be addressed by shipping unemployed people around the country doing jobs they don’t want or are unsuited for. Are you expecting the same to address the shortage in vegetable pickers in Lincolnshire or fisherman in Grimsby ?
Apart from the fact that it won’t work ( no pun intended) where are these people going to be housed when being relocated to pick up the slack in foreign workers ? What about those with families with children.
Just like everything else I’ve heard or read about getting rid of low paid unskilled immigrant workforce and indeed Brexit it just hasn’t been thought through.
From my point of view, I don't want anyone moved or shipped or whatever. If there is a waiter job or a picker job and someone in Lisbon or Rome wants to apply for it. Great stuff. Get the job, come over, fill in some paperwork and crack away. If you want to stay long term/forever - no problem, we can discuss it in the future.
What you can't do is bring X friends with you just in case there are X more jobs on offer.
Ah yes, Ian Parsley, the failed party swapping public/independent school toff politician who is now in PR. Trust him all the way to the twittersphere
OK. If you're happy to ignore the embarrassing state of the chief negotiator of Brexit because you don't like the person reporting the views, here's a few more from this evening.
David Davis is doing a terrible job at agreeing the UK's exit from the EU. But tonight his performance has slipped from inadequate to dangerously misinformed.
According to such reliable sources, privy of course to the negotiating that's going on. Or maybe reliable 'Daz Wright' and Rachel 5742 really do know what's going on.
No wait, they don't, but their tweets are good enough to know what a terrible job is being done behind closed doors.. feed the hungry who are just so eager for disaster they are blinded.
Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I think people having concerns over immigration levels is perfectly valid and absolutely doesn't mark one out as holding racist views. Whether those concerns are justified or not is another issue and I believe that there are many more aspects within the UK that people should be more concerned about than immigration levels...a topic which has been constantly demonised by the popular press.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
No but the dickheads illegally or even just incorrectly rinsing up benefits could certainly manage those roles and have their benefits cut down should they choose to make no effort to add to the economy rather than draining it.
(Yes I disagree with benefit sponges, however appreciate that some do in fact need the benefits they claim for legitimate reasons)
So you think or expect the lack Portuguese cleaners or Italian waitresses is going to be addressed by shipping unemployed people around the country doing jobs they don’t want or are unsuited for. Are you expecting the same to address the shortage in vegetable pickers in Lincolnshire or fisherman in Grimsby ?
Apart from the fact that it won’t work ( no pun intended) where are these people going to be housed when being relocated to pick up the slack in foreign workers ? What about those with families with children.
Just like everything else I’ve heard or read about getting rid of low paid unskilled immigrant workforce and indeed Brexit it just hasn’t been thought through.
From my point of view, I don't want anyone moved or shipped or whatever. If there is a waiter job or a picker job and someone in Lisbon or Rome wants to apply for it. Great stuff. Get the job, come over, fill in some paperwork and crack away. If you want to stay long term/forever - no problem, we can discuss it in the future.
What you can't do is bring X friends with you just in case there are X more jobs on offer.
You're expecting small, local employers to advertise minimum pay level, low skilled jobs abroad and recruit to them while the prospective employee is still based abroad and then go to the effort of some sort of as yet undefined green card system?
It is a public holiday here today, a very resonant one too (Freedom Day, the fall of communism), so sad ****** that I am, I took the time to call the ONS. Very approachable people but unfortunately the main guy is on hols today. Someone else is due to call me back however I think I may have already solved the puzzle.
More than half of the change in net migration can be accounted for by a decrease in net migration of EU citizens (down 51,000); this was driven by an increase (33,000) in emigration for EU citizens (in particular EU8 emigration up 17,000 (both statistically significant)) and a 19,000 decrease in immigration (not statistically significant).
This is the report that will be updated on 30th November.
What these statistics should not be used for, and why These statistics do not measure stocks or flows of recent migrants to the UK, because they include people resident in the UK for many years (many of whom will now be UK nationals) as well as more recent arrivals. This, along with a range of other factors, means that net changes in the number of non-UK workers in the UK cannot be directly compared with long-term net migration for non-UK nationals.
This warning was completely ignored by Migration Watch in the BBC report which @Imissthepeanutman read. It is totally understandable then that he understood it as he did.
Some 6 hours after you posted that, I'm still just sitting here with my mouth wide open. Totally gob-smacked. The ONS, a Government Agency, REALLY described actual people as "Stocks"? Like they are cattle or they are referring to the supply of A4 copier paper in the stationery cupboard? That really happened? Is that acceptable do we think?
And at what stage, having become a UK national, do you cease being an "immigrant"? How far back do they go before you disappear from the statistics? The Viking invasion? William The Bastard? Is QEII still in there as a German? Or her hubby - is he still Greek? The mind, well mine anyway, boggles.
Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I think people having concerns over immigration levels is perfectly valid and absolutely doesn't mark one out as holding racist views. Whether those concerns are justified or not is another issue and I believe that there are many more aspects within the UK that people should be more concerned about than immigration levels...a topic which has been constantly demonised by the popular press.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
No but the dickheads illegally or even just incorrectly rinsing up benefits could certainly manage those roles and have their benefits cut down should they choose to make no effort to add to the economy rather than draining it.
(Yes I disagree with benefit sponges, however appreciate that some do in fact need the benefits they claim for legitimate reasons)
So you think or expect the lack Portuguese cleaners or Italian waitresses is going to be addressed by shipping unemployed people around the country doing jobs they don’t want or are unsuited for. Are you expecting the same to address the shortage in vegetable pickers in Lincolnshire or fisherman in Grimsby ?
Apart from the fact that it won’t work ( no pun intended) where are these people going to be housed when being relocated to pick up the slack in foreign workers ? What about those with families with children.
Just like everything else I’ve heard or read about getting rid of low paid unskilled immigrant workforce and indeed Brexit it just hasn’t been thought through.
From my point of view, I don't want anyone moved or shipped or whatever. If there is a waiter job or a picker job and someone in Lisbon or Rome wants to apply for it. Great stuff. Get the job, come over, fill in some paperwork and crack away. If you want to stay long term/forever - no problem, we can discuss it in the future.
What you can't do is bring X friends with you just in case there are X more jobs on offer.
And the evidence that this happens is ........?
Overwhelming
And for the hard of thinking. The evidence for that is .........?
Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I think people having concerns over immigration levels is perfectly valid and absolutely doesn't mark one out as holding racist views. Whether those concerns are justified or not is another issue and I believe that there are many more aspects within the UK that people should be more concerned about than immigration levels...a topic which has been constantly demonised by the popular press.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
No but the dickheads illegally or even just incorrectly rinsing up benefits could certainly manage those roles and have their benefits cut down should they choose to make no effort to add to the economy rather than draining it.
(Yes I disagree with benefit sponges, however appreciate that some do in fact need the benefits they claim for legitimate reasons)
So you think or expect the lack Portuguese cleaners or Italian waitresses is going to be addressed by shipping unemployed people around the country doing jobs they don’t want or are unsuited for. Are you expecting the same to address the shortage in vegetable pickers in Lincolnshire or fisherman in Grimsby ?
Apart from the fact that it won’t work ( no pun intended) where are these people going to be housed when being relocated to pick up the slack in foreign workers ? What about those with families with children.
Just like everything else I’ve heard or read about getting rid of low paid unskilled immigrant workforce and indeed Brexit it just hasn’t been thought through.
From my point of view, I don't want anyone moved or shipped or whatever. If there is a waiter job or a picker job and someone in Lisbon or Rome wants to apply for it. Great stuff. Get the job, come over, fill in some paperwork and crack away. If you want to stay long term/forever - no problem, we can discuss it in the future.
What you can't do is bring X friends with you just in case there are X more jobs on offer.
It seems like you want your cake and eat it @Valiantphil You want the UK to be open for migrants to come here from the EU if they're going to work, but if they're only here signing on and not working, you'd like to be able to throw them out?
Is that right?
Those rules are already in place - as was ponted out earlier in this thread. Most countries in the world are open to migrant workers in some form or another. There is nothing unusual in that.
Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I think people having concerns over immigration levels is perfectly valid and absolutely doesn't mark one out as holding racist views. Whether those concerns are justified or not is another issue and I believe that there are many more aspects within the UK that people should be more concerned about than immigration levels...a topic which has been constantly demonised by the popular press.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
No but the dickheads illegally or even just incorrectly rinsing up benefits could certainly manage those roles and have their benefits cut down should they choose to make no effort to add to the economy rather than draining it.
(Yes I disagree with benefit sponges, however appreciate that some do in fact need the benefits they claim for legitimate reasons)
So you think or expect the lack Portuguese cleaners or Italian waitresses is going to be addressed by shipping unemployed people around the country doing jobs they don’t want or are unsuited for. Are you expecting the same to address the shortage in vegetable pickers in Lincolnshire or fisherman in Grimsby ?
Apart from the fact that it won’t work ( no pun intended) where are these people going to be housed when being relocated to pick up the slack in foreign workers ? What about those with families with children.
Just like everything else I’ve heard or read about getting rid of low paid unskilled immigrant workforce and indeed Brexit it just hasn’t been thought through.
From my point of view, I don't want anyone moved or shipped or whatever. If there is a waiter job or a picker job and someone in Lisbon or Rome wants to apply for it. Great stuff. Get the job, come over, fill in some paperwork and crack away. If you want to stay long term/forever - no problem, we can discuss it in the future.
What you can't do is bring X friends with you just in case there are X more jobs on offer.
It seems like you want your cake and eat it @Valiantphil You want the UK to be open for migrants to come here from the EU if they're going to work, but if they're only here signing on and not working, you'd like to be able to throw them out?
Is that right?
Those rules are already in place - as was ponted out earlier in this thread. Most countries in the world are open to migrant workers in some form or another. There is nothing unusual in that.
Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I think people having concerns over immigration levels is perfectly valid and absolutely doesn't mark one out as holding racist views. Whether those concerns are justified or not is another issue and I believe that there are many more aspects within the UK that people should be more concerned about than immigration levels...a topic which has been constantly demonised by the popular press.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
No but the dickheads illegally or even just incorrectly rinsing up benefits could certainly manage those roles and have their benefits cut down should they choose to make no effort to add to the economy rather than draining it.
(Yes I disagree with benefit sponges, however appreciate that some do in fact need the benefits they claim for legitimate reasons)
So you think or expect the lack Portuguese cleaners or Italian waitresses is going to be addressed by shipping unemployed people around the country doing jobs they don’t want or are unsuited for. Are you expecting the same to address the shortage in vegetable pickers in Lincolnshire or fisherman in Grimsby ?
Apart from the fact that it won’t work ( no pun intended) where are these people going to be housed when being relocated to pick up the slack in foreign workers ? What about those with families with children.
Just like everything else I’ve heard or read about getting rid of low paid unskilled immigrant workforce and indeed Brexit it just hasn’t been thought through.
From my point of view, I don't want anyone moved or shipped or whatever. If there is a waiter job or a picker job and someone in Lisbon or Rome wants to apply for it. Great stuff. Get the job, come over, fill in some paperwork and crack away. If you want to stay long term/forever - no problem, we can discuss it in the future.
What you can't do is bring X friends with you just in case there are X more jobs on offer.
It seems like you want your cake and eat it @Valiantphil You want the UK to be open for migrants to come here from the EU if they're going to work, but if they're only here signing on and not working, you'd like to be able to throw them out?
Is that right?
How does almost every other country outside the EU manage it?
It is a public holiday here today, a very resonant one too (Freedom Day, the fall of communism), so sad ****** that I am, I took the time to call the ONS. Very approachable people but unfortunately the main guy is on hols today. Someone else is due to call me back however I think I may have already solved the puzzle.
More than half of the change in net migration can be accounted for by a decrease in net migration of EU citizens (down 51,000); this was driven by an increase (33,000) in emigration for EU citizens (in particular EU8 emigration up 17,000 (both statistically significant)) and a 19,000 decrease in immigration (not statistically significant).
This is the report that will be updated on 30th November.
What these statistics should not be used for, and why These statistics do not measure stocks or flows of recent migrants to the UK, because they include people resident in the UK for many years (many of whom will now be UK nationals) as well as more recent arrivals. This, along with a range of other factors, means that net changes in the number of non-UK workers in the UK cannot be directly compared with long-term net migration for non-UK nationals.
This warning was completely ignored by Migration Watch in the BBC report which @Imissthepeanutman read. It is totally understandable then that he understood it as he did.
Please read my original,post again @PragueAddick. You are doing a Michael gove on what I posted and you are twisting it to suit your own agenda.
I quoted the fact as noted by the ons and reported in the times that the number of eu migrant workers was now higher post referendum than pre referendum. Although net eu migration has fallen it remains positive and hence no surprise to me that the total number in employment is higher now than in June 2016.
No puzzle just you misunderstanding what was quoted in the first place.
Re the Irish Border - how do other Lifers think this will be sorted. The Republic are saying that categorically there can not be a hard border, but if that is the case how can this square with leaving the EU and therefore having control over our immigration. The way I see it is that if you don't have border controls or checkpoints then anyone landing by plane, boat or any other means can easily walk into N Ireland, and therefore the UK, without passport checks & therefore makes a mockery of "maintaining out borders / immigration levels". I know that there are no physical borders between Norway & Sweden (I think that's the right 2 countries) but that's mainly to do with trade & with respect I doubt if there are many people wanting to cross between those 2 countries - a completely different story between the UK & EU.
I just cant see a way past this & the main reason why I think its all going to collapse very soon. Unless there are passport checks for anyone coming in from N Ireland by plane or boat, but that is defeating the object imo.
Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I think people having concerns over immigration levels is perfectly valid and absolutely doesn't mark one out as holding racist views. Whether those concerns are justified or not is another issue and I believe that there are many more aspects within the UK that people should be more concerned about than immigration levels...a topic which has been constantly demonised by the popular press.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
No but the dickheads illegally or even just incorrectly rinsing up benefits could certainly manage those roles and have their benefits cut down should they choose to make no effort to add to the economy rather than draining it.
(Yes I disagree with benefit sponges, however appreciate that some do in fact need the benefits they claim for legitimate reasons)
So you think or expect the lack Portuguese cleaners or Italian waitresses is going to be addressed by shipping unemployed people around the country doing jobs they don’t want or are unsuited for. Are you expecting the same to address the shortage in vegetable pickers in Lincolnshire or fisherman in Grimsby ?
Apart from the fact that it won’t work ( no pun intended) where are these people going to be housed when being relocated to pick up the slack in foreign workers ? What about those with families with children.
Just like everything else I’ve heard or read about getting rid of low paid unskilled immigrant workforce and indeed Brexit it just hasn’t been thought through.
From my point of view, I don't want anyone moved or shipped or whatever. If there is a waiter job or a picker job and someone in Lisbon or Rome wants to apply for it. Great stuff. Get the job, come over, fill in some paperwork and crack away. If you want to stay long term/forever - no problem, we can discuss it in the future.
What you can't do is bring X friends with you just in case there are X more jobs on offer.
It seems like you want your cake and eat it @Valiantphil You want the UK to be open for migrants to come here from the EU if they're going to work, but if they're only here signing on and not working, you'd like to be able to throw them out?
Is that right?
How does almost every other country outside the EU manage it?
More importantly, how does every country inside the EU manage it? Because, of course, these are the rules that apply now, within member states.
If you want to come and work in the UK, you can. If you come to the UK but don't work and, instead, merely claim benefits, you can be chucked out.
So, it seems like the nirvana some Leave voters were hoping to achieve is already in place.
Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
I think people having concerns over immigration levels is perfectly valid and absolutely doesn't mark one out as holding racist views. Whether those concerns are justified or not is another issue and I believe that there are many more aspects within the UK that people should be more concerned about than immigration levels...a topic which has been constantly demonised by the popular press.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
No but the dickheads illegally or even just incorrectly rinsing up benefits could certainly manage those roles and have their benefits cut down should they choose to make no effort to add to the economy rather than draining it.
(Yes I disagree with benefit sponges, however appreciate that some do in fact need the benefits they claim for legitimate reasons)
So you think or expect the lack Portuguese cleaners or Italian waitresses is going to be addressed by shipping unemployed people around the country doing jobs they don’t want or are unsuited for. Are you expecting the same to address the shortage in vegetable pickers in Lincolnshire or fisherman in Grimsby ?
Apart from the fact that it won’t work ( no pun intended) where are these people going to be housed when being relocated to pick up the slack in foreign workers ? What about those with families with children.
Just like everything else I’ve heard or read about getting rid of low paid unskilled immigrant workforce and indeed Brexit it just hasn’t been thought through.
From my point of view, I don't want anyone moved or shipped or whatever. If there is a waiter job or a picker job and someone in Lisbon or Rome wants to apply for it. Great stuff. Get the job, come over, fill in some paperwork and crack away. If you want to stay long term/forever - no problem, we can discuss it in the future.
What you can't do is bring X friends with you just in case there are X more jobs on offer.
It seems like you want your cake and eat it @Valiantphil You want the UK to be open for migrants to come here from the EU if they're going to work, but if they're only here signing on and not working, you'd like to be able to throw them out?
Is that right?
Those rules are already in place - as was ponted out earlier in this thread. Most countries in the world are open to migrant workers in some form or another. There is nothing unusual in that.
Yes. Thanks for making my point for me. You've described the ideal situation from your point of view. It's also the situation we already have in place as a member of the EU. You've voted for something we already have.
Re the Irish Border - how do other Lifers think this will be sorted. The Republic are saying that categorically there can not be a hard border, but if that is the case how can this square with leaving the EU and therefore having control over our immigration. The way I see it is that if you don't have border controls or checkpoints then anyone landing by plane, boat or any other means can easily walk into N Ireland, and therefore the UK, without passport checks & therefore makes a mockery of "maintaining out borders / immigration levels". I know that there are no physical borders between Norway & Sweden (I think that's the right 2 countries) but that's mainly to do with trade & with respect I doubt if there are many people wanting to cross between those 2 countries - a completely different story between the UK & EU.
I just cant see a way past this & the main reason why I think its all going to collapse very soon. Unless there are passport checks for anyone coming in from N Ireland by plane or boat, but that is defeating the object imo.
This is a good point. I wonder why someone like @seth plum hasn't already raised it...
Comments
I know Australia has moved on considerably over the last forty years or so (since the days of the White Australia immigration policies - the last of which, coincidentally, or perhaps not, was abolished when the UK was joining the EU), but I'm not sure that the Australian approach can be simply transferred to the UK.
What I would suggest needs to happen for a sustainable immigration policy (politically as much as anything else) is proper long-term planning, within a context of long-term planning for the wider economy and society, but, sadly, because they refuse to address us as adults, UK politicians will not do this.
In any event, nativist politicians will never agree to an open needs-based immigration policy.
Ask Tommy Robinson on what basis he forms his position on controlled immigration. I’m willing to bet that it’s not based on economic grounds.
Btw who are you expecting to carry out the non-skilled/non-professional jobs, with minimal pay and poor conditions and job security in the future? Is a Portuguese cleaner or an Italian waitress not adding to our economy? Neither meet your criteria for entry into the UK.
Anyway, this silly English nationalism is going to far
(Yes I disagree with benefit sponges, however appreciate that some do in fact need the benefits they claim for legitimate reasons)
The idea that by removing long term unemployment benefits, from the tiny minority of the population that receive them, we will have enough labour in the market to fill all the low skilled roles is far too simplistic in my view. Those few that don't want to work will find a way to continue not working, probably by increasing their already illegal activities and others will be inherently unemployable in the longer term. Even if they are willing to work for minimum wage on a zero hour contract.
Look at the US for example. I'm pretty sure our social security system is more generous than theirs yet they still have to rely on cheap immigrant labour for the jobs that no one wants to do. To be blunt, there is not going to be a queue around the door for a job on mimimum pay cleaning up some poor old boy in a care home at 3.00am is there?
Apart from the fact that it won’t work ( no pun intended) where are these people going to be housed when being relocated to pick up the slack in foreign workers ? What about those with families with children.
Just like everything else I’ve heard or read about getting rid of low paid unskilled immigrant workforce and indeed Brexit it just hasn’t been thought through.
If there is a waiter job or a picker job and someone in Lisbon or Rome wants to apply for it. Great stuff.
Get the job, come over, fill in some paperwork and crack away. If you want to stay long term/forever - no problem, we can discuss it in the future.
What you can't do is bring X friends with you just in case there are X more jobs on offer.
Is that right?
Or maybe reliable 'Daz Wright' and Rachel 5742 really do know what's going on.
No wait, they don't, but their tweets are good enough to know what a terrible job is being done behind closed doors.. feed the hungry who are just so eager for disaster they are blinded.
And at what stage, having become a UK national, do you cease being an "immigrant"? How far back do they go before you disappear from the statistics? The Viking invasion? William The Bastard? Is QEII still in there as a German? Or her hubby - is he still Greek? The mind, well mine anyway, boggles.
And for the hard of thinking. The evidence for that is .........?
Most countries in the world are open to
migrant workers in some form or another. There is nothing unusual in that.
Most countries in the world are open to
migrant workers in some form or another. There is nothing unusual in that.
I quoted the fact as noted by the ons and reported in the times that the number of eu migrant workers was now higher post referendum than pre referendum. Although net eu migration has fallen it remains positive and hence no surprise to me that the total number in employment is higher now than in June 2016.
No puzzle just you misunderstanding what was quoted in the first place.
I just cant see a way past this & the main reason why I think its all going to collapse very soon. Unless there are passport checks for anyone coming in from N Ireland by plane or boat, but that is defeating the object imo.
If you want to come and work in the UK, you can. If you come to the UK but don't work and, instead, merely claim benefits, you can be chucked out.
So, it seems like the nirvana some Leave voters were hoping to achieve is already in place.